Bad comparison, this business is not the same. Who said that these so called educators have a degree or have been profitable traders themselves. Anyone could start a trading education course and never have been a profitable trader. And there are some out there believe it or not.
You missed my point. I do not argue with you that there are good, or bad educators. What I'm stating some people are in need of educational services. Finding one is hard.
Making statement that you have made that no one is taking time to learn on their own is just simply wrong.
You just cannot make such a broad statement, since there are different people. Some of us learn on their own some are looking for help.
If and when looking for help I would suggest to read a post made by Jaguar. In his post he is outlining very well how and what to look for when looking for some trading room/s, or an educator/s.
I am very opposed to trading educators touting their method as the greatest thing in the world, and you will absolutely make money if you take their course, or buy their system. That is pure advertising, and any person who wants to learn trading should know that. But, I do believe their is some merit, to check out various methods, because you will pick up little morcels of wisdom here and there that later will ultimately shape you as a trader.
My 1st trade room trial was with feltontrading, which introduced me to divergence, and then I spent some time at another trade room where I learn more about the MACD, then I took those 2 concepts and ran with them on my own, and I basically became a pure MACD divergence trader. In my progression, and further quests, I realized that the RSI is a much better divergence indicator then the MACD, so I now trade divergences with the RSI instead. Here are my trades this morning trading the GLD (Gold ETF) showing the Stoch, MACD and RSI. As you can see if I was scalping MACD divergences, I would have had my head handed to me. As you can see through out the big down move, the first RSI divergence is the one that worked, while the Stoch and MACD got murdered.
The following 6 users say Thank You to monpere for this post:
I've thought a lot about why these courses don't work for anyone except the guy giving the course. There was one here in Australia that ran for 6 months with everyone saying how brilliant it was. In the end I questioned all 30 people doing it while they were drunk at the farewell party (this is Australia) & all 30 were losing money. You sit watching the course giver trade live & they never lose plus everything's personal, these guys stick with you answering questions no matter how long it takes. They may be faking it but they certainly look like they care and they prove over & over again that they're smart enough to make money live. And still it doesn't work. Why?
My take on it is this. I'm a photographer & when I snap a few of my friend's new hamster or baby or pet rock it's possibly going to look a bit better than if they do it themselves. And the reason is that I've got about seven things I instantly check before I take a photo. Angle, lighting, focal length, background, context, exposure & mainly zing have to be just right and I can't do it any other way. 30 years of doing it that way makes me. My guess is is that the course givers are the same, it's their experience that gives them their edge more than their systems.
My turning point was when I read in a blog on Emini Trading Strategies and one guy (bless him) said, no one will tell you this but you have to backtest your system back three months and if it works you then have to double your pretend money. Otherwise you lose. I did it & found out that many of these systems simply don't make money. A lot of us thought it was psychology, lack of understanding or the big one, discipline. Nope, it's usually the system. The worst are the 50% profit/50% loss ones, they'll keep you going for years thinking it's all your fault. Until you backtest them & find out it wasn't.
After all this I found that Roger Felton's course works so I'll only sing his praises. So what if I read his ideas in Elder six years earlier? And also, so what if it took me two years to be able to apply Roger's ideas? I think the whole thing is a process, well, more a battle, and if you come out at the end feeding your family by sitting with your feet up in front of a computer rather than chasing brides all over the country every weekend then I say good on the courses. Difficult yes but that's the way I suspect it's meant to be.
Last edited by dmane; December 8th, 2010 at 01:41 PM.
The following 7 users say Thank You to dmane for this post:
If you cannot trade a real account live in the room, or even trade a sim account in the room so people actually see you trade your method, then you should not be teaching it, it's a scam! It's easy to show an awesome track record that is hypothetical, where none of the trades on that track record were actually taken live. If the trade was not taken in the room for everyone to see live, then it cannot go on a track record. At the end of the day, when I review my charts I always have a 90%+ win rate!!! Sure, when all the bars are in front you, every setup is crystal clear, but when it comes to trading the hard right edge things look very different. That's why you cannot rely on hypothetical track records that are built by scanning a chart and marking up all the potential trades that could have been taken for that day after the trading day is already over. The worst is, some of these trading firms don't even bother to give you a hypothetical track record.
The following 2 users say Thank You to monpere for this post:
Sure, I can make a spreadsheet for you showing you I have a 100% track record, I have never lost a trade in the past 10 years. Now, give me $5000 If I'm learning parachuting, I want my coach to be willing to jump out of the plane with me; if I am learning glass blowing, I want my coach to blow a vase in front of me; If I'm learning trading I want to see my coach be able to take and manage trades in front of my eyes. The only track record you should believe is when you see that trade room leader take 5 trades a day every day in the room, in front of your eyes, while you watch his DOM !!! It doesn't even have to be a live account, I can accept a Sim account, but I want to see you trade, before I give you my $5k, You need to show you believe in your method enough to trade it in front of me, on the cold, unforgiving , put up or shut up, hard right edge of the chart ...Just my humble opinion
Last edited by monpere; December 12th, 2010 at 04:54 PM.
The following 8 users say Thank You to monpere for this post:
Broker/Data: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Favorite Futures: 6E, CL, GC
Posts: 132 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 22 given,
Good posts here
Some interesting posts here...wish I'd seen it sooner. A couple of you guys posted some ideas that seem to be almost heresy in this industry. You just can't say that some educators are honest. You can't say that trading success requires work....LOL. Here are the facts as I understand them from most posts:
In trading, the system is everything. A monkey should be able to win with it or else it's snake oil.
Hard work, study and lots of practice are unnecessary if you find the right trading system. It's surely out there and shouldn't cost more than a few dollars.
A mentor's trading statements are proof positive that everyone will be successful.
Anyone good at anything that makes money would have to be insane to want to teach it.
Anyone really believe any of that stuff? A lot of traders do. If I buy Tiger Woods golf clubs, I'm guaranteed a win in the Masters Tournament, right? There is no trading system in the world that will make you a dime without lots of work. You have to know the markets you're trading for they each have their own little quirks. Your trading system is simply a tool to be used like a carpenter would use his table saw. If he never learns how to use that saw...and never practices with it, he'll probably not make it in his chosen craft.
Many traders expect the system to "do it all"...find, execute, manage and exit trades with great consistent profits while they sip their tea and watch TV. That's just not going to happen, folks. A great trading system is one that mechanically finds and identifies great entry points that offer excellent profit potential in the vast majority of the signals generated. If a trader uses such a system and consistently manages to lose, would the system be bad or would it likely be due to bad trade management?
Most traders who are not successful are ones that just got in their own way. Anyone who thinks they can work through their mental blocks and develop a winning trading system on their own or by reading a few books are kidding themselves. It can be done but most people don't have a decade or two to get there. Most highly successful trading professionals had a good mentor who could also teach. There's a great article on this topic in the Oct. issue of Active Trader magazine (pg.49).
I don't mind anyone saying whatever they want about me. I just wish they weren't guessing when they do it. 95% of the people who talk about me are traders who have never met me and certainly never spent a minute of their time trying to learn from me. Of those who did know me, I have never seen a comment questioning my dedication, knowledge or honesty.
Consider this: If you promise to never give me a dime, then let's set up a time to talk trader to trader. If you aren't as successful as you'd like to be, let me work with you for a while...one-on-one...even evenings or weekends...just like I do for my group. Once we've worked together for a while, come back to this thread and just be honest. Tell it how you see it. If I'm even remotely like anyone else, say so. If I teach snake oil, rip me to pieces. If you learned nothing, speak up. Just speak the truth. Fair enough, guys?
This is in no way a solicitation of any product offered at Felton Trading. No money will ever be asked for nor accepted from anyone responding to this post.
Happy trading from your futures.io (formerly BMT) colleague,
The following 15 users say Thank You to rogerf for this post:
Roger, I appreciate you coming here and stating your case. You have done it well and politely.
I agree with the statement above, as some people have unrealistic expectations and want auto-$$ in their account. But, this is not the case with most guys here.
Further, I feel for the retail crowd. First, they have to pay the educators (you) who at times run sites written by copy writers with "Who wants to finally stop losing..." and "While I sat in my mother's basement I came across a method I will share ONLY with the first 50"....
Then, there is the broker (me!) where they have to pay commissions...some advertise $2,500 and $300 margins...seriously!
But, wait there is more...
Then you need pay for the platform, the data feed, and historical tick data, etc....
Some of the guys are on their 6th attempt to try and get it right, and some have given up.
When everyone starts sounding the same, a pattern emerges, and your guard as a customer is up about everything. Criticism and/or negative feedback is just a factor of being tired.
Everyone is tired. This is why you can never take things personally.
look at the spirit of the site and how people share with one another here:codes, ideas,methodologies and the truth about their trading. I think this is a symptom of the past struggle remembering how tired they got to be in seeking their trading success. Now they share...for free.
Participate here, add good comments and sooner than later you will have good friends.
As a broker, I can tell you that I was always treated here with respect and even earned a little business along the way.
Roger, maybe you can even make a webinar one day (?) and teach some beginners a few techniques that helped you as a trader.
I wish you success and helping many beginner traders
PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
The following 8 users say Thank You to mattz for this post:
You saying you are not here to solicit any business but you really are by claiming:
- you can make individuals successful via what you offer
- you state you are a trader when in fact you are just an educator (show me a statement and I will rest my case)
- indirectly claiming you attained success as a trader, otherwise why would anyone bother to follow you? If you are truly successful as a trader, then a verified statement will go a long way!
Nice work to plug your case but this is just another poor selling pitch.
What makes you say Roger is a trader?
The following user says Thank You to kashter for this post: