Since you have had success with using some of these psychological techniques, could you suggest some more resources?
My preferred style of learning is an interactive/class room type of environment. During my student days, I used to be an active participant during classes; I hardly if ever opened books outside class. It is actually hard for me to read a book (non-fiction) end-to-end. That is why I am loving Dr. Brett's Trading Coach book since it is split into independent section which you can read at ease.
I first learned Visualization techniques in the U.S. Army when I was flying the AH-1S "Cobra" back in the 80's/90's.....since that time I have formalized my efforts and there has been very dynamic benefits. Psychology is HUGE in trading and this element HAST TO BE accounted for to have any success imo.
The following user says Thank You to FulcrumTrader for this post:
Trading coach is a nice book indeed, he is a pro, also he as well as Menaker will answer your email and go into lengths to help you understand. I picked up a few tricks from Dr. Brett and using them constantly as well as visualization.
My background is from physics, so you can imagine how far away I was from all that new age...
So I had to do some classification, and created a few categories:
Universal methods(e.g. visualization) v. groups of many narrow specialized tricks(Dr.Brett, Van Tharp);
Pro's in psychology v. pro's in trading;
and so on. In the process I have discovered that the most important distinction lies between to opposing ways of delivering relief, and it doesn't really matter if the method belongs to a new age discipline such as NLP or traditional psychology:
one method is delivered in a way similar to AA steps program. Such approach is usually forceful, dramatic, painful. It could be effective but takes a lot of time, puts you under constant pressure so that if you do not relapse -- you'll likely damage some other aspect of your mind while trying fix existing problem.
I prefer easy and effortless release technique as I mentioned already. They work faster, painless and in my experience way more effective. They are also universal and can be applied to any aspect of your live.
There are 2 practitioners that continue the work of their teacher Lester Levenson. One is Hale Dwoskin and another Larry Crane. Both have cd's and dvd's, just look up Sedona method. Try it and you'll know what you've been missing. It sounds simplistic and naive when you first learn the concept but it works and is very rational when you think about it.
The following 2 users say Thank You to Sasha for this post:
I will really appreciate if you could provide information about more reasonable mentor-ship programs out there.
I agree with you that the initial 10K GBP outlay is probably more than what most people can and want to afford. Though it is supposed to cover one year and includes all their other stuff (trading room, videos etc.), it is still a major upfront commitment.
Hi Aviat72 This thread has several other references to teacher/training worth checking out.
If you can stand fast scalping using tick charts and market delta ladder use, check out FuturesFX method. Simon trades in front of you every morning. Room cost is very fair.
If you are a larger account and want some slower action with a well-controlled risk using MP check out Alexander Trading. Don, Harris and Ben. They have begun a record of trading done in the room which is open all day with lots of commentary.
MarketBalence is also MP. Frank. He works with and endorses Watt Trading Group. Both very reasonable costs as is Huddy (Channel Trading) and Top Dog (Barry). No BS Trading will fill you in on watching pure price movement.
Gail Mercer (Traders Help Desk) has a free daily (ornings) trade room. She sells some training services and Indies but is low key with it. She likes the 6E instrument on 3 minutes and shows good money management and likes to teach.
Yes, too much of an upfront committment.
Methods vary and I find some just will not click with me. This is one strong reason not to drop a large amount (2000+) with one person.
The following 3 users say Thank You to Ron Schnee for this post:
I don't think Watts Trading is that good... They teach you a setup in NQ and ES, which is based on technical indcators. I think that any daytrading requires the observation of the flow... Otherwise, it is not complete.
You have a much better understanding of what we do and who we are at L2ST than Sasha. As you have actually experienced our training in the trading room, where it counts most, in a live market. Actually I do not know who sasha is. The only Sasha I remember I received a very nasty email from (actually the only nasty email I have ever received from anyone, in my 7 years in trader coaching!), who mistakenly thought I was some other educator with website that had a similar named website to our blog. I explained that was not me and we only had a blog called inthetradingzone.com. Anyway, after some nasty email abuse by this Sasha, I banned any access from ever signing up to our products or trading room. Although I do not know for sure, this may be the same Sasha, and would explain why he is so angry and has Beef with me and L2ST. I could n't think of any other reason, as you should be aware from our work that there is very little in what we do in our seminar/trading room that has ANYTHING to do with scalping and NLP. Pretty funny really, how someone that knows nothing about us could have such strong views! Truly amazing claims, of knowing more about me and L2ST than my clients and myself. I work with multi million to billion dollar Hedge Funds as well as Proprietary Trading Firms in the US and UK, who are very strict on Due Diligence before they employ training for their traders. Do you really think that they would have any faith in our work if it was not proven, and we didn't have some sort of track record, in our own trading and also in helping improve traders performances.
I can confirm the reason why Sasha will not understand your views. Why? It's because he has NEVER EVER been an L2ST trading Room member, and actually we have no record of him purchasing any of our training material, so I would be interested to know where he obtained his copy of our seminar? is it a legal copy? If he has such a strong feeling that I am a lier and that everything we teach is BS, then why not let us know, so that I could refund his purchase. Shasha, Provide me a copy of your receipt of purchase and i will refund whatever you have purchased quite happily. You clearly missed the points.
This talk about Dom scaling and NLP, is Ridiculous BS. The DOM scalping webinar a short freebie webinar for our room members only. It was not meant to be a mastery class, and I even explained although its useful you would not trade it alone. Anyway, it was FREE! so even if he thought it was rubbish, just throw it in the bin, it didn't cost anything anyway. The concepts clearly worked as every trade taken within that webinar with the platform (DOM)! were profitable in a matter of seconds. Yes, it's simple, but it works! The idea was to share some basic concepts that Proprietary Traders that i have traded with and still trade with use, as well as highlight the spoofing games that take place and how not be sucked into them. And actually we use VERY LITTLE DOM analysis in our trading if any, and I clearly explain why that is and if you had ever been an L2ST Trading Room member you would know that. Unless you are a scalper, its not worth focusing on too much.
Also, I do not advise Scalping as you know, our training has ALWAYS been about picking less trades of larger time frames, with better risk to reward,by understanding Auction Market Theory, through the use of Market Profile and MarketDelta Order Flow Analysis. 1-2 decent trades is usually what i go for and as a room member you know that.
Also those who ACTUALLY KNOW, would be aware that although I am a certified NLP practitioner, I do not use many NLP techniques myself. I have understood how the Mind Works better through learning NLP and the influence of the Unconscious Mind, so if something does work we understand why it did work for that individual. Also, I have never made claims of being a hypnotherpist and hypnotising anyone. I never do and never would do that. If you want Hypnosis you go to a Hypno-therapist. L2ST quite simply are traders that teach people how to understand the markets and trade them better. We explain that the path to consistent profits is a clearly defined business plan, trading plan, pre-market analysis with preparation and a solid understanding of the markets and its participants. Yes you will have psychological issues to deal with along the way, but if you follow the learning and trading process in the right way, with the right support, some very simple and logical techniques will help you move onto the next trade and next day without any mumbo jumbo magic. All you need is a common sense, structured and logical approach with Discipline. When you struggle with discipline, you get help from whichever professional you feel that you can trust. Traders like to work with L2ST because we are professional traders that understand what a trader goes through very well, that's all. We are traders teaching traders in what we feel is the right approach. Not magic sorcerers! We do not utilise any specific techniques in our Peak Performance training, and are very simplistic and we only employ them with 1on1 Mentorship students and professional trading clients (prop and hedge funds) that need help moving to the next level. A lot of we use is from the years of experience of working with Professional Traders and understanding what works, Its what we call Peak Performance Coaching. There is n't much too it, and anyone one our mentor-ship programmes who have been through the process, would understand that there is no mumbo jumbo voodoo magic, here its a simple logical structured approach to learning how to trade whilst improving your understanding of yourself and the markets. Simple techniques, that help you ACCEPT what is, keep you in the present moment and the NOW, as well as help you release and let go of anything that takes you away from being fully engaged in your trading is all that you need.
In the early phases for a trader the focus should always be to trade to build:
1> Good Trading Habits.
3> Belief and Confidence - in a) The Trading Method, b) Your ability to trade that method, c) Yourself in general.
4> More Trading Experience, especially with Execution and Trade Management.
5> Practice Excellent Money`Risk Management.
This should always be without too much emotional attachment to the result of each individual trade. When emotional trading takes you away from the above, you have to know what has caused the issue, and how you can move on with a positive outlook, and a greater chance of success. You CANNOT ignore the issues that arise emotionally, as repression of negative emotions is what quite often will destroy a traders career. You cannot eliminate the emotions, as humans we are emotional beings, however there are some very simple practical techniques for lessing the effects of negative states and emotions on our behaviours, through Acceptance of what is and learning to let go. Find the ones that work for you personally. There is no magic technique, just the ones that work for YOU. Simple meditation and letting go techniques work well, with continuous practice, and thats all you really need.
Personally I find that being balanced emotionally, physically, mentally and spiritually is good practice for traders. It keeps you in Peak Performance States and therefore you stand better chances of success. Simple things like Diet & Physical Health effect us mentally and emotionally more than most would think.
Please do not expect someone who has made no commitment to learn and understand another, to provide you any useful or valid advise. Its pure anger and hate. Just check out Sasha's posts all over the forum. it doesn't take long to work out that this is a negative individual that has nothing better to do that share that negativity with others. Haters like sasha really do make it painful for genuine people to help like minded people.
You have seen in earlier posts where he put words in your mouth and claimed that you said this, this and that. Well it appears that most of the claims that he has made that i have claimed, i never have and never would. You being a student would know that. He has never been a student so how would he know? It's mind boggling how someone can claim to know so much about you and everything else, when he has very little knowledge and understanding. I mean making claims about performance etc is ridiculous too. We trade live many times in our trading for extensive periods and recorded the performance and shared with all room members. Again, if Sasha was a room member he would have known and seen this. Pretty funny how someone claims that you are lier when the proof is shared for all to see.
Keep up the good work Aviat72. Hopefully you can make your own decision in deciding what makes sense and what is right for you and what is not.
Last edited by kamd; November 21st, 2010 at 01:21 PM.
The following user says Thank You to kamd for this post:
Just to clarify that, the 10k mentorship is the most premium product from L2ST for independent and professional traders, its a full 1 year programme that requires a lot of personal time, hard work and dedication with weekly meetings for performance tracking review, feedback and Peak Performance Coaching. Its a fully structured process, that mostly professional traders (Proprietary and Hedge Fund Traders) and at times the independent trader too. However, one person may think 10k is cheap another may think its expensive, it really depends on the individual. To make this more affordable for other independent trading clients L2ST decided to run Group Mentorship (10 Students), that started this september 2010. Its a very similar structure for around £2500. Its a very comprehensive programme, and is already full for the next year or so. The number of students is limited, so that a quality mentorship standard can be maintained. I would be interested to know what else if anything else that is similar out there, that can offer the value of this mentorship. To be honest if you can find anyone offer anything like this programme for much cheaper, go for it. L2ST just want to help traders, and if you feel that you are better off with a deal from another firm, that makes more sense and is more attractive, go for it. A lot of material is available FREE via the L2ST website and our blog. If any one is not prepared to pay for training there is a quite a lot of free stuff out there that can help provide at least some good advice and information to guide you in the right direction. You have to remember that, Training seminars/webinars and Live trading Rooms are very different education, whilst a Coaching and Mentorships are completely different.
Trading experience will always count for more than anything else in this business, Quiet simply, your best coach will ALWAYS be the market. So anyone that can do it alone without the help of 3rd party education, should do so. It just makes sense, if you do not need education, then DO NOT pay for it. However for those that need guidance and advise find a mentor/coach that you can be accountable to and that will help you through any struggles that may arise. As traders you need to be willing to take risks whilst trading and comparing the Risk to Reward, similarly when investing in your education you should work out your potential ROI (Return On Investment) after the completion of a training Programme. If you clearly understand the benefits of a training/education programme and understand that it could potentially save you a lot of time (our most valuable resource) as well as money in the long term, it makes sense. However obviously if you feel that the training education is not worthwhile, then it does n't make sense to invest. Common sense really. If any education appears to be overpriced for you just contact the training company, and ask to help setup a payment plan.
If a trader cannot afford education, they probably cannot afford to trade. Depending on the amount of capital a traders is trading, you can quite easily lose the cost of quality education in 1 day trading if you are unprepared and uneducated. Most clients that would invest in a 1on1 mentorship for 10K, will be the type of client that understands that that is not a lot of money in todays markets, and could be the risk of 1 trade. up to a month or so trading.
There is a lot of education available so, be selective and have a budget (as outlined in your business plan for education) and find someone that you can relate to and trust. Personally I always budget at least 10k for investment in education in my yearly business plans, this is usually for self development, which is a continuous process. Others will always have opinions of what they feel is right or wrong, however you must remember that you may not necessarily agree.
Last edited by kamd; November 21st, 2010 at 12:38 PM.
The following user says Thank You to kamd for this post: