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TopstepTrader's Michael Patak (President) - Ask Me Anything (AMA)
Started:February 8th, 2013 (07:49 PM) by Big Mike Views / Replies:113,030 / 875
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TopstepTrader's Michael Patak (President) - Ask Me Anything (AMA)

Old January 16th, 2015, 03:31 PM   #451 (permalink)
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Thank you for taking time out to respond to our questions...

Michael,

I've always been very impressed with how you treat your customers/traders. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to cordially answer some of our inquiries. I've always felt that the combine, and other products, like the IDP program or TST University, are wonderful resources that can really help aspiring traders. I hope that I will be able to achieve the goal of passing the combine soon.

Thanks again,
James D.

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Old January 16th, 2015, 05:04 PM   #452 (permalink)
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bobwest View Post
Yes, hit a daily loss equal to the daily loss limit and you're out. (It's "unrealized," because even if you haven't closed the trade, they'll knock you out.) The max drawdown is the most you can go into the hole on a total cumulative basis for the entire Combine.

Thanks Bob for your detailed answer! I´ve understood the rules with the trailing max. drawdown etc, what really was not clear to me is the sentence quoted: the daily loss limit not only referr to a closed trade, but even to an open trade!!! That´s important to know. No lean back and hoping on a trade to come back out of a greater unrealized loss of 500$!!

Waiting, Discipline and Patience Pays!
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Old January 16th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #453 (permalink)
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pipandrun View Post
Thanks Bob for your detailed answer! I´ve understood the rules with the trailing max. drawdown etc, what really was not clear to me is the sentence quoted: the daily loss limit not only referr to a closed trade, but even to an open trade!!! That´s important to know. No lean back and hoping on a trade to come back out of a greater unrealized loss of 500$!!

I should have known all that was already clear to you.... Oh well, maybe somebody else will get something new out of it. I hope so.

Bob.

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Old January 19th, 2015, 11:01 AM   #454 (permalink)
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nourozi View Post
Considering the variety of platforms that one can choose from to complete the combine, does this vary the results unfairly by any chance? The fill algorithms differ on all platforms so would that not unbalance the results?

For example, some fill engines may fill orders faster than others..

How do you deal with this?

Thanks,

Erfan.

Nourozi- This has not been an issue with our users. Most are not scalpers and therefore have no issues with their fills. Also, the fill algorithm is on the back-end. Though there is a slight difference with fills in the Combine (due to simulation) then live trading we do not feel there is nor have we noticed an unfair advantage in any way between users.

Michael

If you have any questions about our products or services at TopstepTrader, please send me a Private Message or use the BMT "Ask Me Anything" thread.
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Old February 4th, 2015, 09:10 PM   #455 (permalink)
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TopstepTrader View Post
Darkpooltrading- I do want to clarify that they are not trading for TST once you pass the Combine. You would be trading on our equity partner's account. TST is strictly a scouting agency that educates (TSTU), develops, and discovers traders in a realtime SIM (aka. Paper) environment.

mp

Will you be locked into a contract or similar restricting trading for another prop firm, hedge fund or opm? or anything related.

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Old February 5th, 2015, 06:02 PM   #456 (permalink)
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KahunaDog View Post
Will you be locked into a contract or similar restricting trading for another prop firm, hedge fund or opm? or anything related.

No, you will not be locked into a contract or restricted from trading your own account or trading for another prop firm.

If you have any questions about our products or services at TopstepTrader, please send me a Private Message or use the BMT "Ask Me Anything" thread.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 05:40 AM   #457 (permalink)
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@TopstepTrader Mike,

I have a few questions, I hope you can spend some time addressing these concerns. The continuous combine is an excellent addition to TST. The message of the continous combine being: patience, discipline, no arbitrary deadlines. Just trade your plan consistently.

Now to my concerns:
  • Upon completion of a continous combine and going into LTP, you are then placed under arbitrary timelines again. ie: Complete the LTP in 2 months. So initially you have people opting for the continuous combine for the specific reason that they prefer a more patient, low risk, baby steps approach. Yet when reaching LTP that no longer applies.
  • When going live with TST, you have a trailing max drawdown. Essentially that is the risk that the equity partner is happy to take on given that the newly funded trader has proven themselves. However you no longer trail the drawdown up until zero as was the case in the past. Now you only trail that drawdown for an arbitrary 10 days. Then it all of a sudden it dissapears.

    Going back to people doing continous combines, they for a large part select this option because it more closely mimics real trading. There are no arbitrary deadlines which in real trading, mean nothing. They are able to build the account slowly and patiently with no artificial pressure placed by deadlines.

    Yet when you are funded, the mindset of the continous combine goes out the window. You are forced to build a big enough cushion in 10 trading days such that when you remove the trailing max drawdown, they are able to survive on the funds they've built up.

    So you have people passing continuous combines who took several months to do so, yet all of a sudden they have no more than 10 days to build a big cushion.
  • If a newly funded trader makes $300 for example in their first 10 days of being funded, and all of a sudden you remove the trailing max drawdown, they are guaranteed to fail. Yet this is someone who is building their account, showing discipline, and heading in the right direction. Im not sure I see how all of a sudden pulling the rug out from under this traders feet is a good thing.

Basically all my questions revolve around the same issue I see. On the one hand you have a continous combine that removes arbitrary deadlines and promotes patience and a base hits approach. Yet on the other hand as soon as you reach LTP and funding, arbitrary deadlines are placed on the trader. The trader can no longer continue with their patient approach to trading because these artificial deadlines now exist.

To illustrate the above issues with some recent examples of newly funded traders:
  • Recently patr82 was funded. He traded 72 days to get funded and averaged $41.6 / day
  • Recently daRake was funded. he traded 37 days to get funded and averaged $40.5 / day

These traders are well deserving of their success. Clearly the continuous combine suited their style. Yet when funded, TST expects them to build a cushion in 10 days at which point the rug gets pulled out from under them. Given a $40 / day average, if they continue trading in the same manner it is likely that after 10 days they will be sitting at somewhere around $400. How can they be expected to not fail at that point when TST removes their max trailing drawdown? All of a sudden their max risk is $400, or it's game over. But all they did was trade consistently in the same manner that they did throughout their combine.

My intention for this post is for it to be constructive, so my suggestions for the above issues would be:
  • If you pass a continuous combine and have taken several months to do so, then the LTP should also be of a continuous nature.
  • The trailing max drawdown for newly funded traders doesn't just disappear after 10 days. It trails up till zero exactly how it use to (thus eliminating the equity partners risk at that point)

Thanks Mike. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

You don’t trade the markets; you only trade your beliefs about the markets.
- Van K Tharp
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Old February 12th, 2015, 09:46 AM   #458 (permalink)
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
@TopstepTrader Mike,

I have a few questions, I hope you can spend some time addressing these concerns. The continuous combine is an excellent addition to TST. The message of the continous combine being: patience, discipline, no arbitrary deadlines. Just trade your plan consistently.

Now to my concerns:
  • Upon completion of a continous combine and going into LTP, you are then placed under arbitrary timelines again. ie: Complete the LTP in 2 months. So initially you have people opting for the continuous combine for the specific reason that they prefer a more patient, low risk, baby steps approach. Yet when reaching LTP that no longer applies.
  • When going live with TST, you have a trailing max drawdown. Essentially that is the risk that the equity partner is happy to take on given that the newly funded trader has proven themselves. However you no longer trail the drawdown up until zero as was the case in the past. Now you only trail that drawdown for an arbitrary 10 days. Then it all of a sudden it dissapears.

    Going back to people doing continous combines, they for a large part select this option because it more closely mimics real trading. There are no arbitrary deadlines which in real trading, mean nothing. They are able to build the account slowly and patiently with no artificial pressure placed by deadlines.

    Yet when you are funded, the mindset of the continous combine goes out the window. You are forced to build a big enough cushion in 10 trading days such that when you remove the trailing max drawdown, they are able to survive on the funds they've built up.

    So you have people passing continuous combines who took several months to do so, yet all of a sudden they have no more than 10 days to build a big cushion.
  • If a newly funded trader makes $300 for example in their first 10 days of being funded, and all of a sudden you remove the trailing max drawdown, they are guaranteed to fail. Yet this is someone who is building their account, showing discipline, and heading in the right direction. Im not sure I see how all of a sudden pulling the rug out from under this traders feet is a good thing.

Basically all my questions revolve around the same issue I see. On the one hand you have a continous combine that removes arbitrary deadlines and promotes patience and a base hits approach. Yet on the other hand as soon as you reach LTP and funding, arbitrary deadlines are placed on the trader. The trader can no longer continue with their patient approach to trading because these artificial deadlines now exist.

To illustrate the above issues with some recent examples of newly funded traders:
  • Recently patr82 was funded. He traded 72 days to get funded and averaged $41.6 / day
  • Recently daRake was funded. he traded 37 days to get funded and averaged $40.5 / day

These traders are well deserving of their success. Clearly the continuous combine suited their style. Yet when funded, TST expects them to build a cushion in 10 days at which point the rug gets pulled out from under them. Given a $40 / day average, if they continue trading in the same manner it is likely that after 10 days they will be sitting at somewhere around $400. How can they be expected to not fail at that point when TST removes their max trailing drawdown? All of a sudden their max risk is $400, or it's game over. But all they did was trade consistently in the same manner that they did throughout their combine.

My intention for this post is for it to be constructive, so my suggestions for the above issues would be:
  • If you pass a continuous combine and have taken several months to do so, then the LTP should also be of a continuous nature.
  • The trailing max drawdown for newly funded traders doesn't just disappear after 10 days. It trails up till zero exactly how it use to (thus eliminating the equity partners risk at that point)

Thanks Mike. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

im not sure where you are seeing this rule?

Live Trader Preparation Rules ? Help & Feedback Center


Quoting 
Rules:

Always implement stops with an open position
Only trade permitted products, during the permitted times*
Achieve an Average Net P&L greater than $0 for each product traded (enforced after 10 trading days)
Achieve an overall Winning Day percentage of 45 or greater (enforced after 10 trading days)
Ensure my Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed Daily/Weekly Loss Limit*
Ensure my Account Balance will not hit or exceed my Trailing Max Drawdown
Do not hold positions into major economic releases. Please follow the guidelines here.*
Follow the funded trader scaling plan here.
You may be eligible to revise the above listed rules on your Scout call. A Scout call is not required to begin your Live Trader Preparation period.

*Those who successfully complete the $10K or the $30k Combine will NOT have a Weekly Loss Limit

it also says you can have a custom LTP like a custom combine.

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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Old February 12th, 2015, 09:57 AM   #459 (permalink)
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madLyfe View Post
im not sure where you are seeing this rule?

Live Trader Preparation Rules ? Help & Feedback Center



it also says you can have a custom LTP like a custom combine.

Here:

Futures Funded Trader Rules ? Help & Feedback Center

They only provide their max trailing drawdown for 10 days for newly funded traders. Then it disappears and you are on your own. You cannot let your balance return to 0.

Regarding LTP, I am yet to see anyone have an LTP that is not 2 months in duration. Ask around...

You don’t trade the markets; you only trade your beliefs about the markets.
- Van K Tharp

Last edited by DarkPoolTrading; February 12th, 2015 at 10:03 AM.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 10:59 AM   #460 (permalink)
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
@TopstepTrader Mike,

I have a few questions, I hope you can spend some time addressing these concerns. The continuous combine is an excellent addition to TST. The message of the continous combine being: patience, discipline, no arbitrary deadlines. Just trade your plan consistently.

Now to my concerns:
  • Upon completion of a continous combine and going into LTP, you are then placed under arbitrary timelines again. ie: Complete the LTP in 2 months. So initially you have people opting for the continuous combine for the specific reason that they prefer a more patient, low risk, baby steps approach. Yet when reaching LTP that no longer applies.
  • When going live with TST, you have a trailing max drawdown. Essentially that is the risk that the equity partner is happy to take on given that the newly funded trader has proven themselves. However you no longer trail the drawdown up until zero as was the case in the past. Now you only trail that drawdown for an arbitrary 10 days. Then it all of a sudden it dissapears.

    Going back to people doing continous combines, they for a large part select this option because it more closely mimics real trading. There are no arbitrary deadlines which in real trading, mean nothing. They are able to build the account slowly and patiently with no artificial pressure placed by deadlines.

    Yet when you are funded, the mindset of the continous combine goes out the window. You are forced to build a big enough cushion in 10 trading days such that when you remove the trailing max drawdown, they are able to survive on the funds they've built up.

    So you have people passing continuous combines who took several months to do so, yet all of a sudden they have no more than 10 days to build a big cushion.
  • If a newly funded trader makes $300 for example in their first 10 days of being funded, and all of a sudden you remove the trailing max drawdown, they are guaranteed to fail. Yet this is someone who is building their account, showing discipline, and heading in the right direction. Im not sure I see how all of a sudden pulling the rug out from under this traders feet is a good thing.

Basically all my questions revolve around the same issue I see. On the one hand you have a continous combine that removes arbitrary deadlines and promotes patience and a base hits approach. Yet on the other hand as soon as you reach LTP and funding, arbitrary deadlines are placed on the trader. The trader can no longer continue with their patient approach to trading because these artificial deadlines now exist.

To illustrate the above issues with some recent examples of newly funded traders:
  • Recently patr82 was funded. He traded 72 days to get funded and averaged $41.6 / day
  • Recently daRake was funded. he traded 37 days to get funded and averaged $40.5 / day

These traders are well deserving of their success. Clearly the continuous combine suited their style. Yet when funded, TST expects them to build a cushion in 10 days at which point the rug gets pulled out from under them. Given a $40 / day average, if they continue trading in the same manner it is likely that after 10 days they will be sitting at somewhere around $400. How can they be expected to not fail at that point when TST removes their max trailing drawdown? All of a sudden their max risk is $400, or it's game over. But all they did was trade consistently in the same manner that they did throughout their combine.

My intention for this post is for it to be constructive, so my suggestions for the above issues would be:
  • If you pass a continuous combine and have taken several months to do so, then the LTP should also be of a continuous nature.
  • The trailing max drawdown for newly funded traders doesn't just disappear after 10 days. It trails up till zero exactly how it use to (thus eliminating the equity partners risk at that point)

Thanks Mike. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Hi DarkPoolTrading,

First and foremost, thank you for your feedback.

Let me start by saying that one of the main fallacies between what you're referring to and what actually normally happens in successful Continuous Combines, is exactly what you highlight, time. The VAST majority of successful Continuous Combines are completed within 10-15 days.

When we first introduced the Continuous Combine it was absolutely our intention to give traders as much time as they needed to meet the objective by not having to trade as large of size or overtrade due to an, as you call it, arbitrary timeline. However, we soon realized that what we actually did was create a little bit of a 2-headed monster, if you will.

More and more traders were successful and getting funded, but not by showing us a large sample pool of say 25+ trading days, but rather just more successfully completing the Combine in 10 trading days. The reason being that they had no pressure. However, we all know that the live markets create a whole new sense of pressure.

So after funding these traders and seeing that their performance was far worse in the funded accounts than what was previously the case when we had only 10 and 20 day Combines, we realized something had to change.

Therefore, we implemented the Live Trader Preparation with a generous time limit of up to 2 months to complete. Again though, most who are successful in LTP complete it in 10 consecutive days. Below is a list of a few recent successful LTP's who are getting funded.

laureno 1/28-2/11 exactly 2 weeks, traded 10
Devco1 1/28-2/10 exactly 2 weeks, traded 10
TraderVa 1/14-1/30 exactly 2 weeks, traded 10 days
MrBrunotte 1/19-2/2 traded 11 days
famumoe 1/20- 2/2 exactly 2 weeks, traded 10 days
Mark8_Tr8der 1/19-1/30 exactly 2 weeks, traded 10 days
bmoore 1/8-1/29 traded 12 days
vladisslavpv 1/15-1/29 exactly 2 weeks, traded 10 days

So when you state, "Regarding LTP, I am yet to see anyone have an LTP that is not 2 months in duration. Ask around..." that simply isn't true. Likely what you are basing that on is the time we make a Newest Funded Trader announcement versus the time someone successfully completes a Combine.

Right now we are averaging account openings in 1.5 weeks from the time someone successfully completes a Combine or LTP. Most of our Newest Funded Traders are already trading on their live account by the time we announce or interview them. Also, there is a myriad of reasons why trades want to wait to start trading on their accounts, for instance the holidays and volume were a big one. And as you can see by the 46 traders we’ve already funded this year, the pipeline gets full pretty quickly when it comes to announcing and scheduling Newest Funded Trader interviews, so definitely don't base anything off that if that's is in fact what you were referring to.

Last, in regards to the Funded Trader Scaling Plan and Trailing Max Drawdown after 10 days, the entire point of that is to ease traders into the live market, not to intimidate or stack the odds against anyone. Our equity partner funded a lot of traders letting them come out of the gate with their Loss Limit and Drawdown and most came out swinging with large size and we're done before they even started.

We introduced this scaling plan and drawdown method to purposely deter traders from doing that. To stay the course, do what made them successful strategy wise, focus on the process and the rest will take of itself. Ultimately, it has paid off. Our traders are trading immensely better and taking more withdrawals since it's inception and as you can tell from the 46+ traders we've funded since the new year, our equity partner is pleased with it's success as well.

All of this being said, I definitely realize there are areas for improvement, and the Continuous Combine and/or LTP/Funded is by no means perfect. So I do agree with you that if someone has gotten funded by trading consistently over the course of say 30+ days, they probably deserve and should be treated a little differently. We do our best to be as objective and transparent as possible (or else we'd get eaten alive on forums like this!), but I'm not so naive as to think that each situation should be treated the same.

What I will promise you DarkPoolTrading is that I will meet with the Scout Team and try to wrap our heads around those that complete the Combine in an extended period of time and how we can fairly treat them while balancing everyone's best interests. We will always strive to make things the best they can possibly be. This helps, so thank you for that.

Trade well,

Mp

If you have any questions about our products or services at TopstepTrader, please send me a Private Message or use the BMT "Ask Me Anything" thread.
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