"Beginners Course?" I would call it the complete foundation course. Most internet guru's invite you into their rooms to trade for a lot less then the final price but then there are always those added extras. Lots of added extras for lots of extra money. Lately, most of the rooms I've checked out seem to be hitting the $2000-$2500 mark to just get started but it use to be $1500 or so. $3500 seems to be the new bench mark. School of Trade: $4195, Pacific Trading Academy wanted $3500 just a few months ago but if I signed right then it was $3000. Advanced Trading Workshop: They were $2500 three years ago, for the beginner class, now, I really can't tell by just looking at their website but the whole shebang is $8999 ...and the list goes one. Nobody needs anything else from AlphaWave Traders after the first course. The principles taught in the first class are all you need to be a successful trader in any market. In fact Alla teaches you how to figure out how to make your trading even better and gives you the tools and training to figure out your own advanced system and she encourages you to do so and will help you with it too. Paying her the $500 is only a short cut to desert after the main course.
Alpha Wave traders charged me $3000 but I believe they raised the price to $3299. That is not out side of reason. It might be more than ShadowTraders at $999 with the 4 day intensive training extra at $500 . But Buyer beware. Newby's could pay ShadowTraders $1500 for their course (a very good over all education and trading system in my opinion) or they could spend $50, become an Elite member of Big Mike's and learn the same thing here from PerryG. Anybody shopping for a new car, a new house or a new trading system needs to be an educated shopper. Newby's and Oldster's like myself should read the Forums, learn a little about the markets and then make the best decision they can about a trading course that will fit their personality (or even if they need a canned trading system).
The three Rooms that I have Observed lately other than AlphaWave Traders have had stops from 15 to 30 tics on the Euro, Emini S&P, Oil, Natural Gas, NQ and YM. We must be visiting different rooms. As far as setting a stop and then letting the it stay until the market takes it out or moves in a positive direction to the profit target is a valid trading technique. It might not be your technique but it still is a good one. In fact, it's the trading technique for two of the three Observed Rooms. By leaving the stop sitting and not changing it, no emotions can influence your trade decisions and personally in the long run, I believe you will have fewer whipsaws that eats up your trading account. What Alla did with that trade was not wrong. Just not your trading style. A good reason for you to not join AlphaWave Trades but maybe a Great reason for others to join and learn her system. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've jumped ship only to have the market take off in the direction of the trade and left me sitting in it's dust. Alla's stops can be as small as 7 tics or as much as 15 tics. But the discussion really isn't about stops, it's about capitol preservation isn't it. If you take her recommendation on the first closer profit target with 60% of your contracts, and then if you get stopped out, it will have been a break even trade and most of the time the market will hit that first, smaller profit target (that everybody here was bitching about) before it does stop you out. That's Capitol Preservation.
Everybody hates spam. Me too but any increase I've had lately isn't really noticeable amongst the inundation I receive from all other visited rooms over the last 10 years. Thank goodness for spam filters.
Good Luck on your trading journey. I know I've found my path. I'll keep looking for the new Holy Grail because that's the kind of guy I am but until then, I've found my path with AlphaWave Traders and I'm sticking to it.
The following 2 users say Thank You to grinder for this post:
Advanced Trading Workshop? School of Trade? Neither of these has a very good reputation so if you're comparing to them, anyone is going to look good. As you said you really need to do your due diligence before you spend the money. I also don't understand why you would be in these hucksters rooms if you are so satisfied with Alla and her methods. Sorry but your comment about continually searching for the Holy Grail doesn't hold water with me.
A stop loss of 15-30 tics on ES - never, ever, in any trading room have I seen a stop loss of this magnitude on ES. Quite frankly I haven't even seen stops this wide on NQ, or YM. I agree on TF, NG and CL, but the others - never, and again, I've been in lots of rooms, as have the people that I trade with. Perhaps I`ve done a better job of vetting trade rooms than you have.
As for the stops that Alla sets in her room and how she manages her trades I am commenting here so that others who are in her room checking her out know how she is trading. I am conveying information that people need to know. Of course we've all been in trades, stopped out only to have the trade change direction and go against us - this is part of trading. However, there are very clearly times when you know you are on the wrong side of the trade and it only makes sense to minimize your losses. A $300 loss on NQ is significant at $5 per tick. Of course you could've ridden the 2008 flash crash all the way down and held onto your losing trade until it turned but very few of us have that kind of capital to put at risk. If that's how you trade that's fine but again, people need to know what they`re getting themselves into. As for Alla, who knows if that`s how she`s managing her own trades since she doesn`t trade live or SIM in the room - we will never know for sure and it`s easy to ride a trade all the way down when you have NO skin in the game.
The following 4 users say Thank You to flipper26 for this post:
I completely agree with Flipper. Those stops and negative risk reward will blow up your account. There is no way you are profitable with those long term. You compare Alla to those other two rooms? You may as well pick the worst rooms you can, of course she may look better than them. You are way off base. How can you follow somebody that doesn't trade Live or Sim. I think your posts are very misleading to newer traders. Sorry
The following 4 users say Thank You to longboat for this post:
I just read something about my fees forwarded to me by my student ( by the way many of my students can post anything here, because it requires to be a member and have prior posts, but there are more from my studnets to come), unlike anyone else who sells or teaches anything I had seen in Day Trading:
1. I designed my own strategies, by spending fortune and years. And as per my students, should be charging much much more, because I TEACH EVERYTHING. I dont hide anything. Once you learn my method: YOU CAN TRADE ANYTHING. YOU NEED NO LICENSE FEES. YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF PURE PRICE WITH YOU ALWAYS AND FOREVER.
2. I run two trading rooms : Education and Trading simultaneously. I spell out that I take both: Aggressive and Conservative Trades to Trial and regular Trading Room members in the Trading Room. I teach my students to be Ultra Conservative and therefore to take very few trades notjust per day, but per week. If I will take so few trades: I will be accused of not taking all trades I give: only those who are in the course understand that. Trading room members hear when I state the difference between two. I would not have a Trading Room, if I will take only my Conservative Trades. I take max 5-7 per week. And always spell it out to all and never ever hide this.
3. I dont know anyone in the industry who runs two rooms and trades their personal account. I speak with my students and describe reasons why I had taken a trade. WHile also concentrading on Trading Room. Imagine adding personal trading to this? I did trade my account, when I ran Trading Room only. It worked, but only until I opened Education Trading Room. Which I was told by many: no human can do..I do it every day: I run two rooms, group teaching, private mentoring and webinars. I do it all myself: until very recently when due to loss of my voice, overextending myself with teaching, I asked Danny and Jonathan, graduates of my course to help teaching. They both are dearly loved by my students and will continue working side by side with me.
I pride myself on what I had done and have hundreds of testimonies from my graduates and currrent students to prove that. I had never been happier, since I became a full time trader. Staring at the screens and having no interactions did not fill me up..I was empty and bored.
Teaching my method and seeing the difference I make in lives of those who take Trading Seriously, had been the biggest surprise ever. If I would ever had choice between Trading versus Teaching: I would take Teaching in a heart beat. I am a girl, and need my love tank full: Trading aint filling it..TEACHING IS.
In 9 months since inception of the site: I have hundreds of friends all over the world. I have letters from wives and families: not just students. I have invitations from New Zealand, Kuala Lampur, Singapore, Switzerland....I am on my way to meet my students in Singapore: I am living a dream and forever grateful to God for such Magic..as I honestly never expected such..I could not do it without him giving me vision to read Pure Price and giving me such unbelievable success. I had been invited to teach Hedge Funds: they told me: I am nuts to share my strategies with the world..
What matters to me in life is one thing only:
THOSE WHO KNOW ME: KNOW THAT I AM A REAL DEAL AND TEACH QUALITY TRADING METHODS I DESIGNED ( and continue designing) AND I CARE ABOUT MY STUDENTS DEEPLY.
I dont put up with BS..I respond accordingly. First time I read the posts: I was upset..Seeing outrage from my students: made it all worth it....
The rooms that I listed are rooms that I have visited in the distant past. They are also rooms that seem to have a presence on the web so that newby's would see them and investigate them and it was easy to check on the amount of money they require for their courses. That's why I listed them. I did not make any recommendations about them one way or another, other than ShadowTraders and AlphaWave Traders of which I have personal knowledge. I am not in any of those trading rooms other than Alphawave Traders. I'm not a rumor monger about other rooms, how good they are or are not UNLESS I've been a member of that room and privy to their trading philosophy and TRADING RULES and you do not know that UNLESS YOU ARE A FULL STUDENT!
Perhaps you have done a better job of vetting other rooms Flipper (and longboat), but you don't really know because you are taking what I said about other rooms out of context (the context was only being their cost) and implying that I think those other rooms are good rooms when the truth is I do not know if they are or not. Then to make matters worse, you make a sarcastic remark about the 2008 flask crash and what you think my trading philosophy is including speculation on my account size. A $300 stop out in any market is not a nice thing, doesn't matter if it's NQ or Crude. I can't comment on that particular trade directly because I don't trade the NQ very often, I don't remember that trade being called and I might not have even been present in the room.
Personally, I think you and everybody else are looking at this all wrong. Can Al Brooks trade his system live with real money or in SIM and make money? Can Roger Felton trade his system live with real money or in SIM and make money? Of course they can! But ya know what? Just because they can doesn't mean that I can or anybody else can.
I DON'T CARE IF THEY MAKE MONEY, I ONLY CARE IF I CAN TRADE THEIR SYSTEM AND MAKE MONEY!
I think it would be great if Alla traded her own system. Good marketing for her and good proof for you. Trouble is, I don't make money if she trades her system, it only matters that I make money when I trade her system and follow her rules. And I do both.
As far as the Holy Grail is concerned: That's the perfect system that makes lots of money with no stop outs and like I said, I'm still looking for the perfect trading system. After my last post, I did want to add one thing. In all of the trading setups that I've used over the years, when I've gone back to look at them, they all would have been much more profitable if I would have filtered them with AlphaWave Traders rules and setups. I've not looked at the market the same way in the last 5 months as I did in the previous 30 plus years. Anything new in trading that peaks my interest will always be compared to Alla's trade signals, they are that good.
I'm sure that there will be lots more said in this thread but like the "Ghost" trader that I am in Alla's EDU room, I'm back to work, learning and trading. I think I have made myself pretty clear, even when my words are twisted and it's suggested they mean something that wasn't said. So, good luck and have fun but I've said my piece.
Grinder, my dear, this is day trading we are talking about, small stops, and if you are talking about 10 min charts and more, then you have a thing coming, after reading your comments, it seems to me that you are still SIM trading this, however, I will be over the moon for you to get somewhere after you start trading live.
and is crucial to understand, is that NQ and TF are very thin markets, TF operates at average of 30 contracts BO per price level when it is traded during session open hours, the actual number of contracts traded is usually less than what is being offered/bid.
Now imagine that 50 students of AWT, put only 3 LIVE contracts each on a trade = 150 contracts, hence Alla's entry is very precise ( you can not jump the trade even one tick early hence it will screw up with the method, it is a break out strategy, so your entry is very precise, outside of a range) now, 150 contracts will push the price up/down for 3 to 4 ticks on TF, on an 8 range bar system that she trades, depending on your DOM set up, you either will not get a fill, or you have a 3 to 4 tick slippage, while your ORIGINAL target is 4 to 6 ticks!! If you DO get a fill with slippage, your target will be 0 to 3 ticks, while your stop is 13 to 14 ticks, depending on your slippage above, you will have the same problem exiting your trade unless of course you do not get a fill at all.
This is true for all breakout strategies though. If you trade a counter trend strategy, the opposite side pressure is strong enough to make a reasonable expectation of getting a fill, which is called contract replenishment, breakout strategies lack this hence the contracts of the opposite side are not replenished and cause the price to breakout of range.
Introducing 150 contracts to a market that averages 30 contracts per BO on a breakout is madness, pure and simple!!!
To give you an example, a friend of mine who very successfully trades GC, day in day out using his own system for a few years, can achieve this at 5 contracts per trade, when he increased the contracts to 15, he noticed than on average his winners are filled at 5 contracts each trade while of course his losers were filled at full 15 contracts, this put a serious dent in his pocket, so even though he has a very profitable strategy, but he can only operate this strategy on 5 contracts per trade.
At the time that I was in Alla's room, I knew of two people who traded live, Liz and Roger, Liz operated at break even and Roger took selected trades, using his own filtering and is somewhat successful. But I fear that Roger will suffer once more and more people join the live trading, it will take only two more people to add 6 contracts before the price runs away from him causing slippage or no fills.
You can test the above using a decent SIM (not the panzy ninjatrader sim) you would need a server side SIM, rather than a client side SIM which ninjatrader is. Server side SIM's give you a fill (and you need to find the ones that give PARTIAL fills too and I do not want to promote anyone, but there are brokers out there that do just that)
Server side SIM's will give you a fill, using their formula, when around 70% of the contracts have been traded, this formula takes into account the numbers of contracts being pulled out while price is BO. Then put 150 contracts on your SIM and watch the result (remember, you need a SIM that can give you partial fills to mimic live)
So apart from the fact that the risk/reward ratio of this strategy is too high for a day trading system to have any meaningful result, adding the problem above will ensure failure.
Once more, the problem above is less evident on more liquid instruments and counter trend strategies.
Hope it helps.
The following 2 users say Thank You to kignkenny for this post:
King Kenny, I agree with you that a few trading in the thinly traded markets, e.g. cl, tf, ng, nq, gc etc., in a live account will not be filled. I use market limit orders and today I had two trades not filled until it came back to fill me. I did 8 trades on cl today with one loser and 7 winners with 31 ticks net profit per contract less commissions. As far as I could ascertain I was the only one in Alla's education room that was trading the cl. I did ask if anyone else was trading it and no one answered. Therefore, on 2 of my 8 trades I did not even get a partial fill with my limit orders until cl came back to my limit order and I was filled.
So you are correct, if others were trading live cash accounts with me in cl then I would not have been filled on all my orders and they would also not have complete fills and or no fills.
Only ES (which I also trade) and the bonds along with the Forex can absorb very many traders using this system at one time.
The following 3 users say Thank You to rogera for this post:
First: I've not given you permission to take such liberties in how you address me. "...My Dear," is straight out an insult. Don't.
Second: Once again you are assuming something that is not true and we all know that it makes an "ass" out of a person as the saying goes. I do trade live all of the time. I was trading live when I joined Alphawave Traders until I decided I was making too many mistakes and needed to stop and understand the rules better, until they became second nature and I could take a trade without thinking about them. After the course, I started trading live full time again. For the record I'm much more profitable then I've ever been. If something happens and I'm not profitable, the markets changes, news, I'm not feeling it, old baggage pops up that kills my trading decisions, I quit for the day or week, just like the last two weeks, right now in this sucky market.
Third: For the second time you've assumed something that was incorrect (review the paragraph above for references about the out come of this and the label that is attached to a person because of it). I've been trading the TF/Russel live off and on since 2009 and it's one of my favorite markets. In fact I was one of the people leading the parade to get Alla to call the trades in the Russel. I'm very aware of what thin markets are and how they act. I know how to place my orders so they are filled at my prices, and if they are not: There's always another trade coming along in a couple of minutes anyway. That's part of trading. Even if Alla had 50 traders that traded the Russell at the same time, 150 contracts at the same time would probably never happen. Even with the same system, every trader is a discretionary trader and they would all have to agree to take the trade... Not going to happen.
Fourth: Alphawave Traders is not a breakout system. If you were in her room as long as you say you were, then you heard her say this. It's something that she states over and over. Sometimes the trades happen to be breakout type of trades but that is coincidental, not by design and the best Alphawave trades are NOT breakout trades. That kind of thinking is like this: If a Ferrari Sportscar has four wheels and a VW bug has four wheels, then it must be a Sportscar also. Now that doesn't seem right.
Fifth: I talked to several people in Alla's room, other than than the two you listed, and they traded live. The three that I had in-depth conversations with, plus myself, makes four people that traded live, to your two, and that makes you wrong by 150%, again. Just because you or somebody else asks a room full of people, "Do you trade live", that doesn't mean you going to get truthful answers or even answers at all. Of the three people I talked to, #1 traded live but their success rate was unknown. #2 was pretty successful and very happy, they claimed. The third person traded live before joining Alla's room and was generally successfully but when I talked to him, his account was growing very fast and he was talking about the possibility of retiring early and trading full time.
Sixth: Finally we agree on something. Sim trading is not live trading, ever. It's always different for a lot of reason, most of which are psychological but machine generated fills, are not real market fills. The NinjaTrader platform does not have instant fills nor does it fill all contracts submitted at the same time, unless you override the default parameters and tell it to. It is as close to actual live trading as one can get I suppose. Still, real money trading is real money and until a person does it live, they will never know if they can be a trader or not. Interestingly enough, the first time I went from SIM on Ninjatrader to a real money account, I got better fills in most markets then I did when trading SIM. ...but give me a break about the BO, etc. If a trader wants to get into any market, it's really easy: "Buy the Ask" or "Sell the Bid". You give up one tic of profit on a trade. Big deal, you are going for those long targets right? One tic is nothing if you get the trade and get the profit. If you get stopped out all of the time, or one tic really does make a difference, your system sucks. Go back to shopping for a new one.
Kenny, I see that you are a software developer for traders ( "...after developing software for traders for many years..." https://futures.io/beginners-introductions/1-introduce-yourself-here-129.html#post82346). I agree Alla is not perfect and she would be the first to admit it too but Instead of trying to prove you're right about Alla and her system, why don't you share some of that software with these traders and if for legal reasons or other reasons you can't do that, develop some better software for the traders on Bigmike's. Help everybody become better traders, help them make some money. They would probably appreciate it a lot more than an endless thread that goes in circles.