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Just some comments. I've noticed they concentrate on ETF's. and options. Maybe on a higher time frame than 5min chart futures. On my simulated journal I've only attempted to trade oil ETF's such as OIH using delta-neutral calendars and selling option premium. I've tried trading USO in the past with single options and gauging oil news, but with no success. I have no idea about intraday particular directional characteristics about oil and such details such as how daily oil inventories affect intraday price.
I tried a simulated trade for 3 months selling a far strike short put. And it worked in the end with max profit because CL didn't drop below 77. But there were interim giant drawdowns up to 8x max profit and there was considerable margin requirement for single short options. So it would only work if one had a big account and used only like 15% of the total account for selling a basket of options on various futures instruments.
Like in www.libertytradinggroup.com 's ad literature says, it's a style of option position&seasonal trading for "wealthy investors".
The following user says Thank You to Cloudy for this post:
I wanted to post this because I notice Cloudy had commented and I am not sure this is the same live room that he is referring too. I sat in with the Oil Trading Group this week (oiltradinggroup.com), and gave it as good of a shot as I could. I was interested in the group because they look legit, and I had been receiving emails citing "+422 Ticks...." and "+341 Ticks..." and my greed sensor kicked in and I thought I would give them a go. However having fallen in love with the Jigsaw DOM, and say they use it, I was even more interested to check them out.
They do not trade etfs or options. They trade CL and ES only. The main guy is called Jason - I dont know his last name. The sales side of the outfit is David Hamman, whom I spoke with. He seemed legit, though he refuted all other types of futures trading over CL, and tried to tell me it was easier to trade than the treasuries. I tried to highlight in the call that surely the volatility might not be everyone surely and he didnt disagree or agree; it felt a little salesy/pushy but could have been the fact he doesnt trade and doesnt know.
In the trading room Jason comes in at 7:45, gives a rundown of what he expects and then you're off to the races at 8AM CST when the pit opens. His first trade of the day is an opening range play (I have never traded opening ranges due to the obvious gambling aspect to it). He often goes for 10 ticks profit with a 12 tick stop.
I am a large-lot trader and it was impossible to make any money. Jason goes for close targets with three lots and then lets a single runner run - this week most runners got stopped out and a lot of the main trades did too. I found it manic. On Thursday I was down $6000 within the first 5 minutes trading 10 lots. Trade after trade failed. As it got manic I would realize Jason had now got short or long the ES or the CL while I was still trying to understand what was going on. Sometimes he would just say "I'm shorting here at 95's" and by the time I looked at that in the DOM price had already dropped and I couldnt get in. When it got manic it looked like he was just looking to take any old trade.
I must highlight I didnt pay for his course so I dont know his method. I would say if you dont already have a pre-conceived notion of price action and how to get in, you might fare better. For myself when he was saying short I was thinking long and vice versa. In the end of Friday I made back $7000 on the sim account myself, shutting it down at negative $11k.
For me the small number of contracts meant that the way he scaled in and out was not conducive for me. He would say his first target is 10 ticks but then it would come to 5 ticks with a 1 lot runner that then lost. Or he would put on the trade and then let it stop out for 12 ticks loss. He would also move stops and then get stopped out for a worse loser.
With all this said and done I think Jason has clearly been a legit trader and he does know what he is doing....He has a system with the levels he plays, computed form his own algorithms, and some how when a level is hit he says "right now its definitely going back to the level xxx" and this seemed to work 50/50 from my small window into the room. He had a system which did seem more logical and based on levels rather than just being an indicator strategy. His read of the DOM was spot on actually, that is without question.
I dont think he is a scam, but at $500 a month, thats the most expensive room I have been in so far and I could not justify it. Apparently on the days when I lost, he still ended up +XXX ticks. The problem for me is he would put a single lot on at some point, and get 10 ticks say, and then those ticks are added to the end result thats published. Its not a robust enough metric to work out if you could sustain yourself following his method, especially if most of the ticks were always with a 1 lot after the 2 lots get stopped out. I could also be doing the method an injustice and thats not my intention - I am hopefully just sharing what I took away from the experience.
Happy to answer questions about this.
The following 5 users say Thank You to ptpatrader for this post:
Good question. When I say I am large lot (thanks for pulling me up in that), I mean thats where/what I desire to be dojng due to having the bank roll, once I "get there". Besides being lonely trading in my office, the desire was to find somewhere that might facilitate my needs. And yes, I dont have the wisdom or experience of yourself to be safely trading large lots right now. My point about my review was that I cannot see how the method would scale up if you were a large lot; I should have been clearer.
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I'm not a large lot trader either....and like you, I want to be but unlike you, I need to build up to it as I do not have a large bankroll to allow this....working on it though...
However, CL has more than enough liquidity to fill 10-50 lots except at the very extreme edges....where sometimes you will see 1-5 lots fill and no more at least at that time.....the rest of the time, 10-50 lots should be no problem.....
I do find it MUCH easier to trade larger size....scaling in and out of a position makes a lot more sense than all in all out from an emotional standpoint....all in all out is mathematically superior but often times those trades get closed out before they have a chance to run their full course....scaling in and our allows a trader to manage this process a bit better....
And for that purpose, trades of 5-20 lots makes a lot of sense for retail traders.....if you have the bankroll that is.......
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci
Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
The following 3 users say Thank You to PandaWarrior for this post:
Right understood. Yes your points marry up with what I have been experiencing. To the point about scaling in and out, scaling in/out psychologically works well if you get chance to scale out. Actually in this case Jason is all in and then scales out. The issue then was taking 12 tick losses on the full 3 lots, but then when it went in his favor only taking a 10 lot first target on 2 and then getting stopped out on the second. To be fair to Jason his technique might work, and I tried diligently to trade with him but increasing the size but the losses mounted up very quickly and I often hit my limit very quickly. Trading smaller lots, such as 5, and being all in and out might have been a better approach on my side, and I hold myself accountable for perhaps faltering with that respect.
I think Jason is legit, but if you have preconceived/ingrained ideas about how to read whats going on, taking the leap of faith after consecutive losses is hard; well it was for me, thats all I can say to be honest.
And rightly or wrongly, my motivation from the trading has been to be done as quickly as possible in the mornings, and trading large lots with nice moves, once the risk/probabilities is all inline seems like the right approach with the money. I would say my own read on price action, inline with using the Jigsaw DOM would allow me to achieve those goals; no need to complicate it....in my defense, the reason for also looking at a room, which I did mention briefly, is to also deal with the loneliness aspect. That said, I may have solved that with sanglucci.com.
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