I agree. If someone asked me I would say avoid her like the plague. If she learned so much her, she could trade for herself, and make lots of money without all the hassle she went thru to set up her site.
That she is selling the stuff she got her, just tells me she never really traded it that successfully, so she is selling it. Oh well.
The Trading Universe is a jungle. You can feed on other traders by trading against them or by educating them. In the end it is a question at what you are better. Some traders also like to have a second leg besides trading. Running a website or a forum provides you with a lower, but stable income, which is not the case for trading.
So let me resume the facts:
(1) Beth is a nice person.
(2) She did not steal any indicators, but developed her own set of tools.
(3) She managed to set up a website and contracted some customers. She has something to teach, she is polite and takes care of her clients.
(4) I really do not know whether she is a good trader or whether her system works, because I have not spent the time to check it. I know that 90% of all systems sold via the internet do not make money and of course I have second thoughts, as I have always second thoughts.
(5) Some of the other members of Big Mike's are jealous, as they think that they are better traders than Beth, but these other members did not manage to set up a website.
The following 8 users say Thank You to Fat Tails for this post:
First of all, real traders have no need for secondary income. It is also possible to have stable income from trading.
That being said, someone might chose to do something on the side for fun. Who am I to judge how people spend their time?
For professional traders, this is more of a lifestyle than a job. I think it's difficult to excel if one doesn't really love it. It's hard to find time for social relations, much less setting running a business on the side.
I guess my problem is that I view it as fraud to sell something worthless to unsuspecting customers. I can't understand how these people can live with themselves. Everyday I see new posters asking about some obscure service, which surely only would lead them further astray from the path to consistent profitability. That bothers me on a fundamental level.
That being said, Beth seems like a nice person and I wish her all the best!
The following 4 users say Thank You to Lornz for this post:
I'm new to trading sorta (2 yrs in) and new to futures.io (formerly BMT), this is the first REAL and only forum I ve ever joined. Glad to see REAL traders in here and I'm figuring out who is who very fast.
Lornz-I couldn't agree with your statement more! I have scarified alot of hrs to get to where I'm at experience wise, I have a ways to go to be where I want, but I'm steadfast!
How do you know it doesn't work it you haven't been a paid subscriber and given it a fair shot?
For example, Trade the Markets has a system and clients (as do other companies). Many people can benefit from others far in advance of their monthly fee $80, 150, $300. Whatever. They can shorten their learning curve and avoid beginner's mistakes.
Not everyone has the time and inclination to wade through forums, and books etc. Perhaps it is better that they start with someone who has.
As to the millionaires from trading if you tell me how much 35 profit points (on ES) a week starting with $10,000 initial cash, trading with contracts trading increasing each week on Monday, and
contracts traded= (cash *2/3 ) /contract margin
(the ES is $2,500 for initial margin day session),
then perhaps we talk discuss your speculation a little further.
Good trading to everyone.
The following user says Thank You to aquarian1 for this post:
But, I think we just have a different set of core values and I find this world full of few people who share those...
Nothing wrong with developing something that 'could' work. For instance, Fat Tails has indicators he is planning to sell. To me, those are of value that you can add that to the tool belt. Value is added and created...
I reviewed Beth's 'deal' and to me it is misleading... Like 99.99999999% of all vendors... So, when you are dishonest and presenting a different image to sell something then to me it defies what I consider good core values.
It isn't an argument of 'the person spent time', 'the person contributed', 'the person is a sweetheart', as I believe them all to be invalid in the context of the issue.
Does the system work for Beth? NOOOOOOOO.
Does the system work for others? MAYBE, and I guess this is where it probably is not fare to cast judgement, but I can cast judgement on the snake oil marketing and sales approach.
I have yet to see a vendor make a sale by showing a financial statement. Except CTA's who obviously don't sell you a 'system' to trade on your own.
The following 4 users say Thank You to bluemele for this post:
You're right, I can't be certain. Her systems do not inspire confidence, though. They can't be too profitable, otherwise she wouldn't be selling them. I'm amazed at how few people get this. Only one profitable setup will make one a millionaire, as long as one is trading a liquid instrument. There is no way around it. The exception would be discretionary trading, where things get a little more fuzzy. The problem is that trading isn't all about psychology, it's about finding a valid approach. They don't grow on trees, and usually take a lot of effort to devise.
I treat trading as a business. If one doesn't have "the time and inclination to wade through forums, and books etc.", I would suggest they don't have the mindset required to become successful. However, it's more about strategic thinking than reading, but one needs a little theoretical knowledge in order to do that. I chose not to go to university after high school, but I made it a priority to go through most of the material on my own. I wanted to see the world as a finance graduate does, but I had no illusions of that making me money. Therefore I devoted most of my time to the latter. I assumed I would make as much money as the graduates would have incurred in student loans, and it turns out I was right. Now that I feel I have my trading under control, I have gone back to school to get a degree in mathematical finance. I study during the day, and trade at night.
I actually subscribed to TTMs video newsletters when I first started out. I liked Mr Carter's top-down summary of the trading day. They actually touch upon some useful subjects, at least at the time, such as tape reading, market internals and multiple time frames. There are some good ideas in his book, but he must not realize it himself. However, they make over $2MM/year on the site, so obviously they are more focused on that. I have no idea of what they are up to now, I used them briefly 5-6 years ago. I did pick up a few things that I researched further on my own, and I thank them for that. But unlike most, that helplessly search for what to do, I am more focused on how they (educators/commentators/etc) are wrong and how I can do it better.
You don't mention the expected drawdown of the system, so it's hard to have an opinion. Personally, I prefer to use $5000 (or more) per ES contract, but I was more aggressive when I first started.
If one is consistently pulling in 35 points on the ES a week, then one should be making seven figures by year two.
Last edited by Lornz; December 17th, 2011 at 06:36 AM.
The following 5 users say Thank You to Lornz for this post:
I hear ya! This is more about integrity than it is about trading. I am frequently disappointed by the lack of just that in the world. It's apparent everywhere, not even limited to the realm of financial gain. I find people stepping on others to inflate their own ego just as bad. I might be a little naive, but I believe it's wrong to exploit others for personal gain, regardless of the situation.
Now many are probably thinking: "Well, how come you are such an arrogant asshole (sometimes) then?".
A fair question, I guess. I have to admit that I am prone to polemics, but that actually serves a useful purpose. Fierce debate has always been instrumental in driving the world forward, it forces one to crystallize one's own ideas.
I always enjoy a verbal boxing match, but I would never try to exploits others ignorance!
That being said, there are helpful tools for sale. My problem lies more with the green = buy/red = sell, no effort required, get rich quick schemes out there.
Like you said, everything would be solved by providing account statements. There must be a reason none of them do?
It seems most don't even bother to visit her site, so I'll copy and paste a few paragraphs:
"I started learning Futures in 2009. It’s almost a 24/7 profession and I’ve spent over 15,000 hours in this industry up until now. For example,
~ read hundreds of trading books
~ attended close to 100 webinars
~ watched hundreds of videos
~ tried close to 100 trading systems
~ experimented with hundreds of indicators
Having invested so much time in the Futures business, I was unable to come across a trading system that met my level and expectation. I started creating my own system in summer 2010."
If that doesn't scream "I have no clue of what I'm talking about", then I don't know what does. 15, 000 hours in 3 years?
It gets worse:
"EZ Color is one of the simplest and most effective trading systems in the market …
All green/aqua Go Long
All red/magenta Go Short
~ Stay with the overall trend
~ No more guesswork
~ Precise and timely EZ signals
~ Minimal analysis when entry rules align
~ Built-in mechanism to protect capital and tighten stop
~ Above-average reward/risk ratio
~ Let your trade run
~ Accompany you from Start till End of a trade
~ Design to make your life easier"
This is the sort of marketing I really have a problem with. I don't know much, but I do know that this is not one of the "most effective trading systems in the market". Aside from that blatant lie, she also first states "No more guesswork", only to counter it with "Minimal analysis when entry rules align" a couple of lines further down.
Last edited by Lornz; December 17th, 2011 at 06:28 AM.
The following 6 users say Thank You to Lornz for this post: