Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Favorite Futures: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 216 given,
I choose to train my visual acuity to recognize the trigger points on the (selected or desired) contract, so that when I choose to trade CL, or YM, or6E, or EMD, or ES, or TF, or 6B, or whatever, I am confident to a reasonable % that I will have success, or be able to manage the position and control the damage of the loss instead of having runaway losses and no gains.
I choose to improve my visual acuity skills instead of relegate them to an AT that have such widely disparate results and such those that have been discussed and represented on this thread
futures.io (formerly BMT) exists to help other traders help other traders to improve in their visual acuity skills
If I wanted to rework and duplicate work every day's efforts, then perhaps I would hire a staff and simply go in behind all their work and get it done twice,
similarly with respect to trading, if i hire an AT and have to do so much pre-work, let alone, know that all that needs to be done before hand each and every day, then I think I should keep setting aside time to trade directly and in the process improve in my visual acuity skills and in seeing the trigger point and improve in my win rate instead of improving in my customization skills for these AT products
Zoe, has a very good point that he is making, and I must admit, I didn't want to accept the premise of his argument at first, but it kept weighing very heavy and made sense.
The following user says Thank You to kronie for this post:
Absolutely, and I agree with you, and I wouldn't use the Viper AT's for several reasons, but I disagree the vendor's are being dishonest. I do use Viper and I do find it useful.
The reason I disagree with Zoe about the vendor is he is making a statement about their character, because the product doesn't work as he feels it should. They never claim, in fact caution against just turning it on and running it all day. So to do what they say don't do, get lousy results, and then say they are crooks, just doesn't wash, and I feel people reading this should get balance.
I've played with another AT, that again was designed to work exactly as the trader himself traded. If you like his approach this was great. The value was you could see when the market was behaving according to the rules he had, turn on the AT, and it would execute for you. The advantage. Reaction time. Again, this fellow had the strong caveat, don't turn it on and let it run all day, it will surely loose. So again to turn it on let it run all day, and get lousy results, and thus say the vendor is a crook isn't fair.
My problem with the VIper AT's is they aren't Viper, but some black box of Rich's and I can't judge when they should do something, so I have no way of knowing if they thing is even working. And that I wouldn't run.
Maybe the issue lies in the definition of what an Autotrader is, and that is another story.
"The EminiAutotrader® virtually eliminates your need for intervention and emotion in your trading. Speed of execution and with preset profit target and stops let the automated trading software take the lead for you. The software can both signal and execute high probability trades. "
Again, I have no objection against trading around news--I do that as a discretionary trader. But when the vendor starts to say things like, "according to Rob, he has got better results trading 6B between X and Y and A and C, on Mondays, but on Tuesday, that's not the case. And Sarah says she trades 6B only between J and L on Fridays and Wednesdays and Josh moves his profit target to 16 ticks 30 seconds after news etc. , etc. , etc." I know these guys don't have a clue and all they want to do is sipin all the negatives into positives and create an illusion they have their shit together.
This vendor doesn't have any notion about what an AT should do and Charles, doesn't even know what it's results are, let alone trade it himself. He comes late to these webinars and asks Gary how the scripts performed that day. All he cares about is how much money came in to his PayPal account on renewals. That's super comforting isn't it.
So, because this thing hasn't been back tested for optimal results, the users are paying $299 a month to beta test on behalf of the company. Now, they have introduced pivots and are instructing people to override the stop and profit parameters based on this, which also hasn't been back tested. During the webinar, they cherry picked a chart that shows a trade that worked better if one moved their stop to a floor trader pivot. But what happens when a trader moves his target to a pivot and the price blows through it, so instead of making 40 ticks as the AT was designed for, he made 8.
When someone noted the pivots on NT are different from eSignal, they were told not to worry about a few ticks here or there. That's real comforting too, isn't it.
All of this simply confuses the subscriber and makes him MORE INVOLVED in the trade. And when the trade doesn't work, they can point to some extraordinary thing thats not part of AT to show why the trader, not the AT, screwed up. What happens if the AT takes a trade right on the pivot? Should the trader immediately close the trade? The possibilities for tweaking this are limitless and all this will do is cause the subscriber to loose more money.
Also, let's forget these guys have a history of lying and using unethical marketing practices. For example, they claimed the Viper indicator was proprietary and didn't use any conventional indicator and posted their own testimonials on the website. You can get the whole story at the mypivots forum.
If I can save a few novice traders from getting highjacked by these guys, it will be a good thing and that's what this is all about. Traders helping other traders. Traders who have no interest in selling crap to other traders. Is that clear?
The following user says Thank You to Zoethecus for this post:
Yes the 6E did not have a good afternoon, you should have had your 80 tick max loss on, and yes we have all been told that, if you didn't have it on that is your choice. Now also while we are on the subject of 6E, on the times I trade it I was down 12.50 for the day, and it made me $3250 profit for the week, now I am happy with that, Also while you were looking at 6E you would have looked at 6B to see if that was having an off day, and you saw it wasn't, it was well up so you choose not to include that into your post.
On your above post, what it says on the web site, It does virtually eliminate need for intervention, it doesn't say totally eliminates need for intervention. On my auto trader I don't interfer with it that much, just if it is maybe 1 tick away from target 1 and cant get that last tick I may move it, target 2 I will let run as the break even is on. If I wanted a AT that I couldn't intervien I would put my money into a managed account with a broker and go play golf for the day. It does signal and execute high probability trades, if it didn't I wouldn't be making money on it.
I think in the webnars when they ask clients how they use the AT and when, we all learn from that, and I like to hear how other people use it, other peoples styles etc, have they found better times, profit targets etc, its then up to me if I'm going to take some of that on board or not, but nice to hear it. I do agree with you on one point however, that some losing trades should be pulled up and talked about why that didn't work etc. Rich to be fair does sometimes do that when he is in them, I have seen him go through a chart and talk about the trades it took winners and losers.
6E has been back tested from November, we were all told the results in a webnar. It's making me money so I will stick with it. Why would I stop using it.
You are against it for what ever reason that is your choice, you should post the good with the bad and people can make up their own minds on the AT.
I do agree traders should help other traders, hence why I like this site, full of people wanting to help others.
Have to agree, that post shouldn't be on the website. My biggest objection and the reason, I barely ran the trial a day, is it's black box. It's not Viper, it's Rich... and since I don't think this programing skills were all that great, I am not inclined to a black box.
Can't say to much about Charles, but I think Gary is genuinely trying to teach new comers about trading. I for one frankly wish they stayed away from the AT.
They got into AT for one reason: MONEY from subscribers.
Rich is a third tier developer looking for a marketing shell to sell his stuff. I understand some people at NT introduced him to Charles and the next thing you know Cobra AT is launched to much fanfare and then does a Led Zeppelin, never to be heard from again. Cobra blew up and with it a lot of traders' money. Anaconda was DOI and Mamba is no great shakes with a horrible risk reward ratio. Russell started off hot like most of these things do and then came back to earth. When newbies who thought they could earn thousands on a mere $300/month saw $1000 draw downs in a day, they ran for the hills.
So now we have new incarnations of Rich's Elliott Wavesque systems. (anyone who knows anything about EW can clearly see that's what the code is based on.) He slaps on the Viper mask and like magic Viper has another offering which has nothing to do, as you noted, with the Viper manual system which is based on fractals for breakouts.
Rich does trade it and he made it, Gary trades some of them, Charles I don't know I've never spoken to him, never had to.
And its not a testimonial, I'm only saying what I believe is true, and speaking fact and two sides to a story, i.e. you posted totally untrue results from TF the other day, today posted about 6E which it did have an off 2nd session, but you don't post the positive and the profits it makes, you only post the negative, and when you looked at 6E you did look at 6B and saw it was in profit but decided not to post that.
For what ever personal reason (and I do believe it is some personal issue you have with either Charles, Gary or Rich) you have with Viper, and lets face it what ever they do you will be against it, that is your opinion. It's working for me and I'm happy with that.
The following user says Thank You to ronan2505 for this post:
Don't be naive. Vendors don't trade what they sell to the public. They like risk free income from people like ronan.
Until you see their trading statements you know nothing.
I suggest to anyone who is considering spending money for these systems, to get the trading statements from the principals of the company. If they refuse regardless of the reason, be thankful you didn't sign up.
My definition of an autotrader is a completely automated system that is sophisticated enough to be run 24hrs with no human interaction and still have a consistent positive equity curve, with minimum drawdowns and tight stops. My expectations are high enough to preclude their actual existence, at least for now.
As for the integrity of Viper Trading Systems: They don't trade live in the live chat room, they don't have interactive chat in the live chat room, their trade reviews on their webinars are hindsight because the Viper colors will repaint two bars back, their indicators are not proprietary but ones repackaged and renamed from the public domain, their forum is sanitized because negative posts are disallowed, and they don't publish any backtest data on their autotraders which are continually curve-fitted to the previous month's market dynamics. Yeah, they do say some things that are actually true and useful, especially Gary Donahoo, but it's really a stretch to call the company honest. As Zoethetus said: it's like being half pregnant.