Everybody is free to do what they want, and if someone wants to give several hundred dollars to charlatans like PT, then go right ahead. But to state that PT is "all about" becoming a "professional full time trader" is actually quite offensive. Professional trading has nothing to do with this... And in a year, or possible two, you will probably understand what I mean.
Do a search on ET for PT/Alex and you will see enough embarrassing displays to want to keep you away. His trading techniques are just ripped off the TTM guys', and apparently he has added a bit on his own.
You just got to love these guys: "WIN/LOSS Ratio: 10.3:1 / 89.9% Entry Accuracy 2006-2011"
Yeah, let's all get rich together...
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I did a edit because someone did ask a ? of me.... and I felt like I was advertising for the rooms,,,so this is how I would like to handle this....every room that I have been in ,,is trying to sell me something,buy this dvd,,,buy this book,,,buy this indicator,,,, buy this,,,buy that..I got something new,,, so buy this...,,,or everything is included for.....$X000.95,,this includes all up grades....or bring me someone and I'll give you a cut,,or webmasters....etc......not to mention the phone calls....
so with that said,,he is my edited 2 cents,(everyone is gone except),Emini addicts,only because none of that has happened,and it is really cheap,,,but who knows with time,,,,,,
Most of the people that look at this tread I presume are alot like me(newbies),,,my real advice is spend your time here,,,you can dig up so much gold for free here at(futures.io (formerly BMT))
People who read that recommendation, check how many post from this member.
I checked they method& strategies couple years ago and they where using similar like holt ema for direction and donchian channels
And had different kind of snake systems, and they change those all the time.
Didn't work well that time, not know do they have succes now.
I'll say it again (and again in the future if necessary).
"The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest." -Albert Einstein
You must ask yourself, if YOU could trade and achieve the results that some of these "vendors" are claiming....
Why on Earth would you bother yourself with training/moderating and fee based systems.
A) If you truly could make a 10x profit factor and 90% edge, then there's no amount of fee you could charge that would EVER even come within a light year of the returns you could get just by trading your methods on your own over an entire portfolio.
B) If A holds true, then there's seriously no reason other than straight charity, that a person would bother to operate a trading room.
C) If B holds true, then there's no reason to charge for said room. If you're doing it for "comraderie" and to be "a good guy" and help other traders out, then you wouldn't charge, it would be free.
Even a strategy/method that earns 1% compounded daily yields 12x your money in a trading year with 252 days.
Over the course of 2 years, that grows to a staggering 147 times your money.
For companies advertising (from 2006 to 2010) with returns that dwarf 1%/day, just consider this. A 5 year span earning 1%/trading day would yield 278,567x your money.
That means if you started out with an $10k account, (assuming unlimited growth), after 5 years of 1%/day, you end up with nearly $2.8BN.
And these hacks are claiming 5 and 6 year periods with returns well beyond 1%/trading day.
Sorry if I'm skeptical. Logic and facts speak for themselves. An internet reference is so easy to forge I can't believe I'm wasting the time to address it.
"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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I haven't read this entire thread, but just some thoughts on the various trading rooms I've been in.
What I've always wanted to see in a trading room was someone actively entering and managing a trade. And their thought process when they manage their trade as its in progress. But in ALL BUT ONE trading room I have been in have I ever seen this.
The moderator often says what he thinks about a trade while it's in the process of setting up. But never actually whether he trades it or not. And if that info is put out, it's always 'AFTER THE FACT.' I don't know if it's just the moderator bs'ng, or if it is the trader's fear of publicly being wrong in front of others with the possibility of losing?
The ONLY room where I ever saw a trader place actual LIVE trades as they occurred in his platform with arrows and all was a PAID room I was in for about a two months. He was totally discretionary, and would have different reasons for managing most trades, but I did get to see him manage trades. I saw this guy take a few points from ES most days he traded it. Jared no longer runs that room, and I believe he is now managing a hedge fund. But he was the ONLY person that I have actually personally VERIFIED could trade profitably day in and day out.
Everyone else usually tells you about their trades in hindsight, or at least after the trade is already in some type of profit.
Last edited by forrestang; August 28th, 2011 at 06:19 PM.
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Not all vendors are evil. Most seem to be, unfortunately -- but not all.
There are some who are honest people, who do not load up their website with outrageous claims and marketing propaganda, do not promise the holy grail, do not show how to double your account in a month, etc.
These same people have every right to charge for their time. Whether they make hundreds, thousands, or millions from their own trading - they still have a right to treat this venture as a business, and to charge for their time. Their time is valuable. I have no problem coming to that realization.
Of course the real challenge is finding an honest vendor that meets the above criteria. And the users, the customers, they don't make it easy. Why? Because most of them are unwilling to put in any time, learn anything other than a "red to blue" trading system, and expect everything to make them rich. After weeks/months/years of dealing with such people, it is easy to lose your own perspective, as you try to accommodate these customers.
Anyway, I don't recommend any vendors. I recommend futures.io (formerly BMT) I've also turned down 100% of all vendors who have approached me wanting to advertise banners on the site for their trading system, methodology, system, etc. But I also have to say not all vendors are evil, and the argument of "those who can't - teach", while true for the majority, is not true of everyone.
The best thing a typical user trying to learn to trade can do --- ask lots of questions before spending any money, ask specifically what one-on-one personalized training and coaching will be included for you, get a written refund policy, and get a written schedule of what training and materials will be provided for their purchase. If any of the material is over-the-top, too good to be true, or if the vendor is unwilling to provide this material prior to a purchase, then just move on. Personally, I would be looking for a "coach" - not a "system", "indicator", etc.
Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.
Need help? 1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first. 2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses. 3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make. 4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance. 5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers. 6) Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.
If you want to support our community, become an Elite Member.
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Having been both a student and a mentor maybe I can lend a different perspective.
There are two big positives to offering training. First, it will definitely improve your trading. The initial impact will be negative as you adjust to everything new (trading in front of an audience, additional commitments on your time, etc.) but if you work your way through those issues there are invaluable benefits to be had. Second, over time you will meet some truly great people. Personally I can't think of two better benefits, or even one.
Unfortunately there are many, many negatives which over time begin to outweigh the positives and usually leads to some kind of burnout. I'll list a few of the big ones but this will not be a complete list.
First, if done properly it is a VERY time consuming endeavor and is really like having a full-time job on top of a full-time job.
Second, there isn't any money in it - at least not compared to what you can make trading - so if this was in any way a motivating factor for starting a training business (and IMO it shouldn't be) then you're going to be disappointed.
Third, the traditional training model is fatally flawed because you have the 'student' contracting the 'mentor' which means the student can do whatever they want, whenever they want, if they want, and the mentor has no leverage to affect changes in behavior.
And this is really a HUGE problem because contrary to popular belief the majority of people are poor-to-very poor students - e.g. poor work ethics, short attention spans, poor listening skills, insufficient time and/or resources, lack of discipline/patience, lack of resolve, unwillingness to venture outside of their comfort zones, etc. etc., etc. - which leads to all kinds of different frustrations and eventually leads to getting fed up with the entire process.
Fourth, and this isn't really a meaningful issue - I'm just including it for my own reasons - you have to tolerate reviews of your service made by people who have no earthly business/qualifications/experience in rendering such judgments.
I was going to list a couple more but I need to stop here so I'm going to close this post with three comments. First, all of the above is based on my own experience, and from that experience I can tell you flat out that I can't envision a scenario where I would ever be interested in offering training again.
Second, IMO people need to rethink how they view - and treat - vendors. Now I'm well aware of the ratio of charlatans to the good guys (and more so than most), but the way you folks do it now is reminiscent of the prisoner's dilemma.
And lastly, if you still think a legitimate mentor/vendor should offer a refund, well, you're bloody nuts. Or you just have better drugs than me.....
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I Know Somebody talks about LIVE trades as they happen in a trading room.....
I guarantee you there is one such room. As a satisfied customer only, I will tell you about this magical room. Each and every day minutes before the market opens, Gary marks his oil charts with simple trend lines and swing levels. While they follow 6 markets, Gary specializes in oil and TF. He tells you IN ADVANCE where he will enter a trade if a swing or a trend line is violated. He announces his profit goal for the trade in advance. His goal is usually the next swing level. At that level you are warned in advance to take a quick profit or tighten your stop. He warns you if a probe trade is setting up, he calls that out in advance with enough time for you to participate if you so choose. If the markets are in chop mode, that is announced as it develops. A big "refrigerator"' box is drawn around the chop zone as it forms. No trades are called in the chop zone, and breakout levels from the chop are also called in advance. Swing levels are called, again in advance, as a place to either take profits, enter trades, or tighten stops. Pull back levels before possible trend resumption are called in advance. If you miss the initial entries, pull backs for either entry or adding to positions are called as they are happening.
The 3 moderators call trades in currencies as they are setting up. They warn you when to stay out of trades because the major move has already occurred. As news events are happening, they tell you as they are occurring whether to be ready to go long or short. Trades after news events take place 3 to 5 minutes after news release, and they RARELY miss the call on the general trend forming. The custom indicators they use clearly show trend forming or continuing. The indicators show trailing stop levels and they teach you when to use them, when to recognize when to get out earlier than stop dots or even when to hold past the stops for yellow bar probe trade setups They announce where they are taking trades, not after the trade starts, with plenty of lead time if you care to participate in the trade.Trailing stops are announced as they are occurring. Oil inventory days usually stir up prices one way or another. They announce as it is happening what possible entry points (levels, not exact prices) to watch for. I have seen way too many 100 - 200 tic trades that they have called the last few months of volatility to doubt their methods. The system of using range bars coupled with breakout trades and probe trades seems to work well.
The same is true before major reports that affect the equity market. While advising you to not initiate a new trade 10-15 minutes before the report, and tightening up your stop on any profitable trades you are in, they watch the price action as the range bars are "shotgunned" across your chart as the news is released. Their indicators, which are very simple to follow, indicate the proper direction to trade. This is announced as it is occuring, and new positions are taken 3-5 minutes after the news release. Quite often as the monster trends we have experienced the last few months develope, all of us in the room are nicely positioned to grab a large part of the 100-150 tic moves that frequently occur after major reports. Trailing stops are upgraded as the trade develops. The moderators show their live chart trader charts showing entries at or close to the levels announced before the trade.
Again, as I said in my last post, I am just a satisfied customer. Viper Trading Systems call trades in advance, take trades as they occur, manage the trade as it occurs, announce winners and losers as they occur without the bull I have heard in other rooms. Having 3 experienced moderators prevents the monotony of a one moderator room. At the end of the 2 hour trading session they do a recap of the trades they took. Why would they put up a doctored up phony chart trader every day showing large profits when day after day after day the system is profitable----- They do not say "Oh well I coulda, shoulda woulda taken a trade in hindsight.The trades are announced in advance with enough lead time for me to get in the trade if I so desire.
There is at least one good room that goes against your blanket indictment I quoted. If you want to be amazed, visit their room. As Bill O'Reilly says, "You are now entering the no spin zone." Many many times after the first 1/2 hour and we hit our daily goals, we are advised - "Nicely green, turn off your machine."
Oh there is such a room. That was the point of my post, that while I believe most moderators of rooms are mainly telling you what they do in HINDSIGHT, I was in a room where I could see a guy's chart, real time, I was also able to verify this chart was in fact real-time via my charts, and I could see each trade he took. Along with his reasoning for his management decisions.