Anybody heard of topsteptrader (review) - Vendors and Product Reviews | futures.io
futures.io futures trading


Anybody heard of topsteptrader (review)
Started: by supermht Views / Replies:138,485 / 751
Last Reply: Attachments:25

Welcome to futures.io.

Welcome, Guest!

This forum was established to help traders (especially futures traders) by openly sharing indicators, strategies, methods, trading journals and discussing the psychology of trading.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading forums:
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive on our forums.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendor advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in openness and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, it is not something tangible you can download.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.


You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community. It's free and simple, and we will never resell your private information.

-- Big Mike

Reply
 25  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Anybody heard of topsteptrader (review)

  #511 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Favorite Futures: E-mini ES S&P 500
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,663 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 29,045 given, 80,706 received


missionatsea View Post
I would like to see a platform/brokerage offer a pay for real time simulated account, at a nominal fee

You can get IQFeed or Kinetick for that, or you can fund an account at a brokerage and pay zero or close to zero for data. What more could you want?

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

Reply With Quote
 
  #512 (permalink)
Elite Member
Erie,Pa
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja, Oanda
Broker/Data: Oanda-practice demo
Favorite Futures: GBP/AUD...wild ride
 
missionatsea's Avatar
 
Posts: 45 since Apr 2014
Thanks: 95 given, 34 received

Thanks Mike. Will do my homework. Appreciate the forum and quite honestly, do not know how you keep up with it.

Reply With Quote
 
  #513 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Sarasota FL
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: ES, CL
 
Posts: 3,566 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 25,634 given, 10,812 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



missionatsea View Post
Thanks Mike. Will do my homework. Appreciate the forum and quite honestly, do not know how you keep up with it.

No one else knows either, but we're grateful for it.

Bob.

Reply With Quote
 
  #514 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Durham, NC
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Kinetick
Favorite Futures: ES, CL
 
Posts: 48 since Oct 2014
Thanks: 0 given, 20 received

I apologize if this has been addressed already, but I didn't read through all 50 pages.

What is the employment relationship with the sponsoring company if you become a funded trader?
W2? 1099? Something else? Is the trader earning an income or are they capital gains? Do they offer benefits, etc.?

Reply With Quote
 
  #515 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Sarasota FL
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: ES, CL
 
Posts: 3,566 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 25,634 given, 10,812 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary

Futures Edge on FIO

Which products do you trade?

 

EnsoTrader View Post
I apologize if this has been addressed already, but I didn't read through all 50 pages.

What is the employment relationship with the sponsoring company if you become a funded trader?
W2? 1099? Something else? Is the trader earning an income or are they capital gains? Do they offer benefits, etc.?

You're an independent contractor. You get a 1099. There are no benefits: you're not an employee. As to whether it's straight income or not, TsT has always said, "Consult with your tax professional." (They aren't giving tax advice.)

The FAQ's on their website are pretty good, and give these answers: TopstepTrader Help

Bob.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to bobwest for this post:
 
  #516 (permalink)
Webinar Host
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: F-16CM-50
Favorite Futures: JDAM
 
tturner86's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,548 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 9,640 given, 10,672 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


EnsoTrader View Post
I apologize if this has been addressed already, but I didn't read through all 50 pages.

What is the employment relationship with the sponsoring company if you become a funded trader?
W2? 1099? Something else? Is the trader earning an income or are they capital gains? Do they offer benefits, etc.?


bobwest View Post
You're an independent contractor. You get a 1099. There are no benefits: you're not an employee. As to whether it's straight income or not, TsT has always said, "Consult with your tax professional." (They aren't giving tax advice.)

The FAQ's on their website are pretty good, and give these answers: TopstepTrader Help

Bob.

Being a 1099 it should be seen as income. The money your earned was earned as income, you did not put up the principal that is being invested. Having talked to my CPA she stated it is earned income and should be taxed as such.

But as bob noted, seek your own tax professional for advice into your situation.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to tturner86 for this post:
 
  #517 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Durham, NC
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Kinetick
Favorite Futures: ES, CL
 
Posts: 48 since Oct 2014
Thanks: 0 given, 20 received

Thanks guys.
That's what I expected, but couldn't find anything on their site that addressed it.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to EnsoTrader for this post:
 
  #518 (permalink)
Elite Member
toronto
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Favorite Futures: forex
 
Posts: 22 since Oct 2013
Thanks: 0 given, 29 received

Hi guys, I wanted to get some feedback to help me try to understand something a little bit better.

A funded account has a maximum draw down limit. If you hit that draw down, you lose the account.

10,000 account, maximum drawdown is $1,000
30,000 account, maximum drawdown is $1,500
50,000 account, maximum drawdown is $2,000
100,000 account, maximum drawdown is $3,000
150,000 account, maximum drawdown is $4,500

It uses a trailing stop style feature where if you build up your account, you can create some cushion. In otherwords, if you generate $10,000 in the account, you can lose that $10,000 and still stay funded. You just cannot bring under the certain amount (example, 50k account has 2k draw-down limit. If you ever get under $48,000, you will lose the account)


----------------------------
The Rub
----------------------------

Ok, so now lets discuss something. We all know the rule that we should risk a maximum of 1-2% of our equity on any trade idea. Futurestrader71 did a full video discussing this topic and i'd advice people to watch it if they havent.

Lets take the $50,000 account provided by topsteptrader for example.

1% of $50,000 = $500.
But TopStep only allows you a maximum draw down of $2,000. So if you risk 1% of 50,000 you will lose the account if you make 4 wrong trades. So its like you are risking 25% of your account. To avoid this, one would want to reduce this risk back down to the 1%-2% level.

So logically what this actually means, is that the 1% rule should be applied not to the total account size, but to the maximum draw-down that they allow you.

So 1% of $2000 = $20

One contract on the ES is ($12.50). Add another $4-5 for the transaction fees and your looking at $16.50-17.50 lost every trade you put on. Add a little bit more because of slippage and you can basically round it off to $20 per round turn. So you cannot even trade 1% of your max drawdown, because you lose 1% every trade you take with 1 contract. So you have to trade at least 2%.

So my question boils down to this. What is the point of working so hard to get "funded" with places like topsteptrader or any propshops that let you trade their money, when in reality you don't have access to the full capital. You only have access to your maximum drawdown.

Granted one can argue that the maximum drawdown is a trailing one. But that doesn't really change much in the grand scheme of things.

If you make $25,000 on your $50,000 account, you have made 50% (which might seem achievable)

However to make that $25,000 using good money management (ie risking 1-2% of your max-drawdown because that is the size of your account in reality), you would need to make 1150% ($2000 + 1050% = 25,000)
When you look at it like that, it no longer seems realistic.

So my question is what is the point of even trying to get a "funded account" with topsteptrader? When you factor in the restrictive rules (eg you cant swing trade because you cannot hold through closes), and the fact that the equity-partner is taking 20% of the profits you make, wouldn't it be more logical to simply open your own tiny account and trade with leverage?

So instead of going through all the hastle of trying to get "funded", just open your own tiny account. You would be able to trade a $2,000 futures account with the same money management rules as you would for a 50,000 "funded" account, because the funded account's true value is simply its maximum drawdown.

But the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. What am I missing here? I don't think people quite realize that if you plan on trading with realistic money management, these funded accounts are nothing more than tiny undercapitalized trading accounts where someone else takes 20% of the profits.


Is there something I am missing here?


Last edited by Sufyan; January 31st, 2015 at 04:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
 
  #519 (permalink)
Webinar Host
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: F-16CM-50
Favorite Futures: JDAM
 
tturner86's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,548 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 9,640 given, 10,672 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


Sufyan View Post

So my question is what is the point of even trying to get a "funded account" with topsteptrader? When you factor in the restrictive rules (eg you cant swing trade because you cannot hold through closes), and the fact that the equity-partner is taking 20% of the profits you make, wouldn't it be more logical to simply open your own tiny account and trade with leverage?

So instead of going through all the hastle of trying to get "funded", just open your own tiny account. You would be able to trade a $2,000 futures account with the same money management rules as you would for a 50,000 "funded" account, because the funded account's true value is simply its maximum drawdown.

But the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. What am I missing here? I don't think people quite realize that if you plan on trading with realistic money management, these funded accounts are nothing more than tiny undercapitalized trading accounts where someone else takes 20% of the profits.


Is there something I am missing here?

Have you ever traded live cash? I am not talking about a micro forex account. But a fully funded account with $10k or so trading the ES or similar product?

Having lost and made money trading in my personal account, I will gladly 'pay' 20% in profit to trade someone else's capital.

Reply With Quote
 
  #520 (permalink)
Elite Member
toronto
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Favorite Futures: forex
 
Posts: 22 since Oct 2013
Thanks: 0 given, 29 received



tturner86 View Post
Have you ever traded live cash? I am not talking about a micro forex account. But a fully funded account with $10k or so trading the ES or similar product?

Having lost and made money trading in my personal account, I will gladly 'pay' 20% in profit to trade someone else's capital.

Largest account i've traded is a 5k forex account.
Unfortunately it was down to $200 in a few months. Luckily i've had much more success in recent months, but that that is neither here nor there.

My question is do you agree that in reality the maximum drawdown is the actual value of the account you are being funded, not the quoted value.

In other words, instead of them saying "were funding you with a 50k account", it would be more accurate to say "were funding you with a 2k account" (because if you try to trade account amount, rather than trade the drawdown amount, you will blow up very fast)

I was just curious as to whether my reason was wrong. Sometimes we work something out, but there is a mistake in our reasoning. So I wanted to know (for my own personal decisions, rather than to bash any company) whether I am correct in my line of thinking.

Thanks

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Sufyan for this post:

Reply



futures.io > > > > Anybody heard of topsteptrader (review)

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

2016 True Edge Awards: Voting is open until Jan 21!

Now
 

Anthony Drager: Pulling the trigger with confidence

Elite only
 

Leo Murphy: The Art and Science of Technical Analysis

Elite only
 

FuturesTrader71: Ask Me Anything

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Have you heard about XYZ? Lornz Vendors and Product Reviews 19 December 29th, 2016 02:31 PM
Webinar: TopstepTrader on Discipline/Psychology (Michael Patak and John Hoagland) Big Mike Psychology and Money Management 24 July 2nd, 2016 12:45 AM
Webinar: Topsteptrader on Discipline and Risk to be successful Big Mike Psychology and Money Management 16 June 10th, 2014 02:45 PM
Has anyone ever heard of invest33.com? energetic Vendors and Product Reviews 14 October 21st, 2013 06:12 PM
Anyone heard of EOTPRO? h4cked Vendors and Product Reviews 31 December 5th, 2012 04:25 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:12 AM.

no new posts
Page generated 2017-01-22 in 0.19 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.205.111.118