Can I trade ZN Future with zero spread? - futures io
futures io



Can I trade ZN Future with zero spread?


Discussion in Treasury Notes and Bonds

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one kevinkdog with 4 posts (13 thanks)
    2. looks_two kiwi with 3 posts (0 thanks)
    3. looks_3 www123 with 3 posts (1 thanks)
    4. looks_4 matthew28 with 2 posts (4 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one kevinkdog with 3.3 thanks per post
    2. looks_two bobwest with 3 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 tr8er with 3 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 matthew28 with 2 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 545 views
    2. thumb_up 24 thanks given
    3. group 5 followers
    1. forum 13 posts
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

Can I trade ZN Future with zero spread?

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
www123
Casablanca + Morocco
 
 
Posts: 4 since Jan 2020
Thanks: 1 given, 2 received

Hello,
Iím new to this forum. I want to post a help question but not sure if I do it the right way. Anyway my question is : can I trade ZN Future with zero spread ?

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
EasyLanguage: fetch option price using Stock ticker
EasyLanguage Programming
Multichart NET: where can i find esplanation on CustomIn …
MultiCharts
Denali Data?
Sierra Chart
need help writing easylanguage radarscreen weekly perfor …
EasyLanguage Programming
Multichart NET set signal parameters different than the …
MultiCharts
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
How much do you know about Bitcoin?
97 thanks
I finally blew up an account
38 thanks
FIO Journal Challenge - April 2021 w/Jigsaw Trading
38 thanks
EdgeProX from Edge Clear
22 thanks
The tiyfTradePlanFactory indicator
21 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #2 (permalink)
 kiwi 
Gold Coast
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: Futures and Forex
 
Posts: 34 since Aug 2010
Thanks: 19 given, 63 received


www123 View Post
Hello,
Iím new to this forum. I want to post a help question but not sure if I do it the right way. Anyway my question is : can I trade ZN Future with zero spread ?

I'd suggest that your question form is fine.

But your question betrays a misunderstanding. Any broker must somehow make a little money. Most do it with a commission to cover data, exchange fees, and their costs, but some do it with an expanded spread or a biased spread (spread betters). But there is never a zero spread - there must always be 1 tick between the bid and the ask (offered buy price and offered sell price). Momentarily it will be zero if someone buys at the ask or vice versa but then it returns to a 1+ spread.

A broker like interactive brokers or ampfutures will offer a minimum REAL spread and charge you a commission for each trade.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 3,003 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,598 given, 5,970 received



kiwi View Post
I'd suggest that your question form is fine.

But your question betrays a misunderstanding. Any broker must somehow make a little money. Most do it with a commission to cover data, exchange fees, and their costs, but some do it with an expanded spread or a biased spread (spread betters). But there is never a zero spread - there must always be 1 tick between the bid and the ask (offered buy price and offered sell price). Momentarily it will be zero if someone buys at the ask or vice versa but then it returns to a 1+ spread.

A broker like interactive brokers or ampfutures will offer a minimum REAL spread and charge you a commission for each trade.

What you are saying about spreads could apply to forex, but not ZN futures.

Futures brokers do not make money on the bid/ask spread. They do not trade, they do not hold the other side of your trade (which would happen with some forex brokers).

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to kevinkdog for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
 kiwi 
Gold Coast
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: Futures and Forex
 
Posts: 34 since Aug 2010
Thanks: 19 given, 63 received

I'm guessing you are from that tiny part of America where people call themselves Americans Kevin.

Elsewhere, the various bonds, notes, indexes etc are available from spread betting brokers. Most are probably accessible from Casablanca (one of the places in the world I've never been and might visit AC www123).

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 3,003 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,598 given, 5,970 received


kiwi View Post
I'm guessing you are from that tiny part of America where people call themselves Americans Kevin.

Elsewhere, the various bonds, notes, indexes etc are available from spread betting brokers. Most are probably accessible from Casablanca (one of the places in the world I've never been and might visit AC www123).



OP asked SPECIFICALLY about ZN futures. That is traded in Chicago on CME exchange.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
www123
Casablanca + Morocco
 
 
Posts: 4 since Jan 2020
Thanks: 1 given, 2 received


kevinkdog View Post
What you are saying about spreads could apply to forex, but not ZN futures.

Futures brokers do not make money on the bid/ask spread. They do not trade, they do not hold the other side of your trade (which would happen with some forex brokers).

Yes my Future broker have commission + 1 tick spread on ZN. Since many weeks I found a strategy on demo account that have very high win rate catching only one tick and paying only commission (demo account donít have spread, only commission). The commission is only 20% of one tick profit (my profit is 15,625usd*0,8 for 1 contract). So do you think we can found a strategy to Buy at Ask or Sell at Bid to avoid that one tick spread on my real account ?? I can see that sometimes Ask=Bid on ZN contract. Can we build strategy around that??

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to www123 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
 tr8er 
Europe
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeNavigator, BookMap
Trading: ES, CL, 6E, 6B
 
Posts: 481 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 35 given, 429 received


www123 View Post
Yes my Future broker have commission + 1 tick spread on ZN. Since many weeks I found a strategy on demo account that have very high win rate catching only one tick and paying only commission (demo account donít have spread, only commission). The commission is only 20% of one tick profit (my profit is 15,625usd*0,8 for 1 contract). So do you think we can found a strategy to Buy at Ask or Sell at Bid to avoid that one tick spread on my real account ?? I can see that sometimes Ask=Bid on ZN contract. Can we build strategy around that??

not sure what you are talking about, Ask = Bid will never happen if you are trading futures, so you cannot build a strategy on that

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to tr8er for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw daytradr
Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
matthew28's Avatar
 
Posts: 994 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,499 given, 1,824 received


kiwi View Post
I'm guessing you are from that tiny part of America where people call themselves Americans Kevin.

Elsewhere, the various bonds, notes, indexes etc are available from spread betting brokers. Most are probably accessible from Casablanca

And spread betting brokers make their money off the spread. When I used a spread betting platform you could only trade on the aggressive side of the spread, not the favourable side, so clearly a spread betting firm in no way provides the option to trade with zero spread

Trading, ideally structured, is a vehicle for expanding consciousness, not damaging it. - Brett Steenbarger
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to matthew28 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw daytradr
Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
matthew28's Avatar
 
Posts: 994 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,499 given, 1,824 received


www123 View Post
Yes my Future broker have commission + 1 tick spread on ZN. Since many weeks I found a strategy on demo account that have very high win rate catching only one tick and paying only commission (demo account donít have spread, only commission). The commission is only 20% of one tick profit (my profit is 15,625usd*0,8 for 1 contract). So do you think we can found a strategy to Buy at Ask or Sell at Bid to avoid that one tick spread on my real account ?? I can see that sometimes Ask=Bid on ZN contract. Can we build strategy around that??

Beware of sim trading success scalping because the simulated fills can be unrealistic and give optimistic fills ie. the platform fills you before your order in the queue would have traded if it was real and had been entered in to the exchange.

"So do you think we can found a strategy to Buy at Ask or Sell at Bid to avoid that one tick spread on my real account ??"
If you entered a market order you would buy immediately at the Ask/Offer or sell at the bid. On a futures platform you would be placing orders the other way round to ideally buy at the Bid and sell at the Offer.
With a decent futures platform it is very easy to place an order on the Depth of Market (DOM) or Price Ladder to try and buy the Bid, or a tick further back or whatever price you like. Your price goes in to the queue of orders at the Bid and it fills if you are lucky and enough volume trades. It is a trade off as if you buy the Offer with a market order you get filled straight away, but if you place an order to fill at a better price on the Bid you risk missing the trade. As a scalper you will miss trades but also as a scalper going for very small targets, the spread can be a large part of the price move so you don't want to give it up. If going just for a tick then you work a short exit on the Offer once filled.

Futures are good for scalping because they are exchange traded so everybody sees the same price and order book, and commissions can be low and exchange fees round turn costs low on European exchanges, or reduced on US exchanges if you are successful and start to trade high volume.

Trading, ideally structured, is a vehicle for expanding consciousness, not damaging it. - Brett Steenbarger
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to matthew28 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 3,003 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,598 given, 5,970 received



www123 View Post
Yes my Future broker have commission + 1 tick spread on ZN. Since many weeks I found a strategy on demo account that have very high win rate catching only one tick and paying only commission (demo account donít have spread, only commission). The commission is only 20% of one tick profit (my profit is 15,625usd*0,8 for 1 contract). So do you think we can found a strategy to Buy at Ask or Sell at Bid to avoid that one tick spread on my real account ?? I can see that sometimes Ask=Bid on ZN contract. Can we build strategy around that??


You are likely successful at this because it is a sim trading artifact.

The only people this might work for is some of the HFT hedge funds that are essentially market makers.

I would not spend much time of this idea, it almost certainly is impossible for retail traders like us.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to kevinkdog for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
 bobwest 
Site Moderator
Sarasota FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart, NinjaTrader
Trading: ES, YM
 
bobwest's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,492 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 49,136 given, 21,788 received


www123 View Post
Yes my Future broker have commission + 1 tick spread on ZN. Since many weeks I found a strategy on demo account that have very high win rate catching only one tick and paying only commission (demo account donít have spread, only commission). The commission is only 20% of one tick profit (my profit is 15,625usd*0,8 for 1 contract). So do you think we can found a strategy to Buy at Ask or Sell at Bid to avoid that one tick spread on my real account ?? I can see that sometimes Ask=Bid on ZN contract. Can we build strategy around that??

Two points:

1. If your strategy depends on being able to trade with no bid/ask spread, there is no opportunity for this in real life. This is just a result of the way your demo software ignores the reality of the spread when it counts an order as filled whenever price reaches your order. This is a flaw that is often seen in simulated trading results, but not in live trading.

2. Any strategy where one tick is critical has too small a profit margin, leaving aside the bid/ask question. Any event that differs from your ideal case will cause you to lose that one tick, and there will be many of them.

Sorry, another idea developed in sim that doesn't have a chance in actual trading. This happens fairly often, actually.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to bobwest for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
www123
Casablanca + Morocco
 
 
Posts: 4 since Jan 2020
Thanks: 1 given, 2 received


kevinkdog View Post
You are likely successful at this because it is a sim trading artifact.

The only people this might work for is some of the HFT hedge funds that are essentially market makers.

I would not spend much time of this idea, it almost certainly is impossible for retail traders like us.

So can that be done with Ďzero spread forex brokerí ? There are few that offer zero spread on EURUSD
What do you think?

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 3,003 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,598 given, 5,970 received


www123 View Post
So can that be done with Ďzero spread forex brokerí ? There are few that offer zero spread on EURUSD
What do you think?

There is no free lunch.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to kevinkdog for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
Koverland
USA, New York
 
 
Posts: 8 since Apr 2021
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

I also thought about this question and didn't know where to find the answer. Good thing I went in here and found what I needed ))

Reply With Quote


futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout Treasury Notes and Bonds > Can I trade ZN Future with zero spread?


Last Updated on April 30, 2021


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing

NEW BlackBird Features + FOREX Support w/Jeremy Tang @ SharkIndicators

Elite only
 

Our 12-year anniversary w/ $$,$$$ prizes (check soon)

June
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada), info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts