NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





Genetic Optimization vs real time


Discussion in NinjaTrader

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one Big Mike with 3 posts (4 thanks)
    2. looks_two Trader.Jon with 2 posts (1 thanks)
    3. looks_3 kandlekid with 1 posts (0 thanks)
    4. looks_4 Hard 8 with 1 posts (0 thanks)
    1. trending_up 3,497 views
    2. thumb_up 5 thanks given
    3. group 3 followers
    1. forum 7 posts
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




 
Search this Thread

Genetic Optimization vs real time

  #1 (permalink)
kandlekid
College Point, NY (Queens)
 
Posts: 63 since Nov 2009
Thanks Given: 5
Thanks Received: 20

Just wondering ... suppose for the sake of argument that I've found a great strategy via genetic optimization. Since this strategy was found using backtest (historical) data, it is subject the same issues any backtested strategy is when run in real time, nes pas ? So I've got this optimized strategy, and now I've got to throw it into another environment (i.e. real time), that may or may not be anything like where it was optimized.

Does optimization really work ?

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
ZombieSqueeze
Platforms and Indicators
Exit Strategy
NinjaTrader
NT7 Indicator Script Troubleshooting - Camarilla Pivots
NinjaTrader
How to apply profiles
Traders Hideout
Better Renko Gaps
The Elite Circle
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Just another trading journal: PA, Wyckoff & Trends
34 thanks
Tao te Trade: way of the WLD
24 thanks
Bigger Wins or Fewer Losses?
15 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
15 thanks
Vinny E-Mini & Algobox Review TRADE ROOM
13 thanks
  #3 (permalink)
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 Big Mike 
Manta, Ecuador
Site Administrator
Developer
Swing Trader
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Broker: IBKR
Trading: Stocks & Futures
Frequency: Every few days
Duration: Weeks
Posts: 50,440 since Jun 2009
Thanks Given: 33,212
Thanks Received: 101,599



kandlekid View Post
Just wondering ... suppose for the sake of argument that I've found a great strategy via genetic optimization. Since this strategy was found using backtest (historical) data, it is subject the same issues any backtested strategy is when run in real time, nes pas ? So I've got this optimized strategy, and now I've got to throw it into another environment (i.e. real time), that may or may not be anything like where it was optimized.

Does optimization really work ?

Everything is subjective. There is no short cut. There is no black or white answer. Yes optimization works. No optimization doesn't work. And everything in between.

If you have a strategy that has backtested well, the best thing you can do to learn from this is to test it in a live market (on sim) for several weeks or months. However, most people will end up making constant tweaks (curve fitting) when a trade goes badly, to avoid such a "mistake" in the future, which is worthless for the most part.

The enemy of backtesting is over curve fitting. Whereas the strength of not backtesting is to establish some basic principles or methodologies. You just need to fully understand out of sample and in sample testing, otherwise all of your testing will be for naught.

Mike

We're here to help: just ask the community or contact our Help Desk

Quick Links: Change your Username or Register as a Vendor
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list
Lifetime Elite Membership: Sign-up for only $149 USD
Exclusive money saving offers from our Site Sponsors: Browse Offers
Report problems with the site: Using the NexusFi changelog thread
Follow me on Twitter Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)
 
Trader.Jon's Avatar
 Trader.Jon 
Near the BEuTiFULL Horse Shoe
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: MBTrading Dukascopy ZenFire
Trading: $EURUSD when it is trending
Posts: 473 since Jul 2009
Thanks Given: 401
Thanks Received: 184


Big Mike View Post
Everything is subjective. There is no short cut. ...

The enemy of backtesting is over curve fitting. Whereas the strength of not backtesting is to establish some basic principles or methodologies. ...Mike

" strength of not backtesting " typo? not is the error ??

Or can we agree to disagree that I think the strength of backtesting is to verify basic principles?

Jon

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #5 (permalink)
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 Big Mike 
Manta, Ecuador
Site Administrator
Developer
Swing Trader
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Broker: IBKR
Trading: Stocks & Futures
Frequency: Every few days
Duration: Weeks
Posts: 50,440 since Jun 2009
Thanks Given: 33,212
Thanks Received: 101,599


Trader.Jon View Post
" strength of not backtesting " typo? not is the error ??

Or can we agree to disagree that I think the strength of backtesting is to verify basic principles?

Jon

Sorry,

Weakness of backtesting = over curve fitting, lookback only
Strength of backtesting = establish basic principles, methodology

The only real, true, believable results from testing is forward testing. Your idea must be forward tested with out-of-sample data. Once a strategy has seen data (date range), it cannot be altered or modified (parameters changed, re-optimized) on the same data or it will be tainted -- out of sample data becomes in sample data.

Mike

We're here to help: just ask the community or contact our Help Desk

Quick Links: Change your Username or Register as a Vendor
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list
Lifetime Elite Membership: Sign-up for only $149 USD
Exclusive money saving offers from our Site Sponsors: Browse Offers
Report problems with the site: Using the NexusFi changelog thread
Follow me on Twitter Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)
Hard 8
Cheyenne, WY
 
Posts: 66 since Nov 2010
Thanks Given: 12
Thanks Received: 41

Backtesting is highly dependent on the data series and indicators, if any, employed. Without knowledge of what you have in this regard, it's not helpful to offer an opinion, but Mike is spot on about curve fitting.

Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)
 
Trader.Jon's Avatar
 Trader.Jon 
Near the BEuTiFULL Horse Shoe
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: MBTrading Dukascopy ZenFire
Trading: $EURUSD when it is trending
Posts: 473 since Jul 2009
Thanks Given: 401
Thanks Received: 184


Big Mike View Post
Sorry,

Weakness of backtesting = over curve fitting, lookback only
Strength of backtesting = establish basic principles, methodology

The only real, true, believable results from testing is forward testing. Your idea must be forward tested with out-of-sample data. Once a strategy has seen data (date range), it cannot be altered or modified (parameters changed, re-optimized) on the same data or it will be tainted -- out of sample data becomes in sample data.

Mike

I can only add :: SPOT ON MIKE!

Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 Big Mike 
Manta, Ecuador
Site Administrator
Developer
Swing Trader
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Broker: IBKR
Trading: Stocks & Futures
Frequency: Every few days
Duration: Weeks
Posts: 50,440 since Jun 2009
Thanks Given: 33,212
Thanks Received: 101,599


Trader.Jon View Post
I can only add :: SPOT ON MIKE!

Thx, I speak from experience and occasionally make sense

Mike

We're here to help: just ask the community or contact our Help Desk

Quick Links: Change your Username or Register as a Vendor
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list
Lifetime Elite Membership: Sign-up for only $149 USD
Exclusive money saving offers from our Site Sponsors: Browse Offers
Report problems with the site: Using the NexusFi changelog thread
Follow me on Twitter Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote




Last Updated on November 16, 2010


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts