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Trading, a life of sacrifice or path to be a millionaire?

  #1 (permalink)
 
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 AllSeeker 
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I was reading a couple of months old thread here

This gave me a little bit of insight on how different it is for different people, and I don't mean the trading part itself, I mean from where you start and where you are right now, your circumstances and your future view.

When I look back at my starting point and what I was thinking, with everything I've been through now, I wouldn't necessarily tell myself to start trading. This drastic change is something I feel is a process that can ruin many newcomers before they even have a fair shot at the game.

So, I feel it would be helpful for newcomers like me if experienced people here can chime in and rid of this illusion in newbie mind that "in couple of years I'll be a millionaire", to make it little easier, I'll put in some questions but please don't be limited to them only to share your experience


1. With everything you know now about the path, would you tell your past self to still do it if you had the chance?
2. Would you call trading a path to be millionaire or path of sacrifice?
3. What sacrifices you made if any before you turned to profitable path?
4. If you are to advice a newcomer, who has no background in the field and is living on average pay, what would it be?

You can add any questions to answer to make the situation more clear for new bloods, as I might have forgotten some.

Thanks and please excuse if this is not appropriate place or repeated topic, I did search but didn't find the similar topic, so thought I should post it.

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  #2 (permalink)
 
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 snax 
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First, some context about where I'm at. This upcoming January will mark 2 years of trading experience. I guess I consider these two years an "initiation", and myself an initiate who is just getting started. I have seen a lot of FIO characters come and go in my short time here and I realize two years isn't much in the grand scheme of things so take this with much salt

I've pointed out in other threads that I wouldn't be able to do this when I was fresh out of college, as I did not have enough discipline or mindfulness necessary for all the adversity we face. Plus there is the issue of capitalization and there weren't any cme micros until 2019 so that would have been a factor as well. Now with the micros you can at least get a feel for live trading with a smaller account.

To answer your first question about would you tell your past self to take up trading, the answer is a definite yes. I feel it suits me and is the type of challenge I look for. I've developed emotional and mental discipline and I feel the best is yet to come.

For me, the "Path" is all there is, and it represents a big part of who I want to be. I don't even think about becoming a millionaire or anything, though I do think about the math and how to start living off of trading alone and how to scale from there, but its more about building a future and having the freedom to be who I want to be and build a life that suits me. If the money accumulates, then it accumulates and is a gift for enjoying the labor put in along the journey. I enjoy the work, and the only time I get drained from it is when the work/trading combination gets stressful, but that really is a blessing to be in a position to have a job and be able to trade so I accept it happily (even if I complain sometimes in my journal after a bad day )

I'm on holiday vacation right now and I am up for the open of the market and enjoying every minute of it. Even losing days energize me after I shake off the loss.

For your second question, I would say trading is a path of opportunity. I wouldn't say its a path to becoming a millionaire, but it can offer the opportunity to become one. I believe it helps if you love the work, some would call the work "sacrifice", others including myself would call it something akin to a "labor of love".

The sacrifices I made to getting here were indirect and not related to trading, I worked hard at my job and made conservative long-term investments, I didn't buy unnecessary expensive things. So now I'm not feeling like I could lose my home or anything like that. I guess I am sacrificing other things I could do with the capital but I can't think of anything materialistic I want more than a trading account.

Advice for a newcomer is put yourself in a position where you can be capitalized, treat it like a long-term career, and expect substantial adversity.

I believe the underlying theme here is that trading can change you for the good, and the path along the way is what matters and goes much deeper than money, even if trading really is just about money, which it is. But the path to becoming successful is much more than that I believe.

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  #3 (permalink)
 
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 forrestang 
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LastDino View Post
.
1. With everything you know now about the path, would you tell your past self to still do it if you had the chance?

Hell no! I would try like hell to convince my former self to do something else. Knowing me, I would literally ignore my future self, so I would authorize my future self to assassinate my former self if necessary.


LastDino View Post
2. Would you call trading a path to be millionaire or path of sacrifice?

Probably depends on the person... for me, sacrifice. And I never even cared about being a millionaire, for me, I'd just rather be a trader than work for someone else.


LastDino View Post
3. What sacrifices you made if any before you turned to profitable path?

Profitable? Haha, I'll let you know when I get there... Sacrifices... you guys ever see that meme of the guy sleeping outside, with his PC plugged into a light pole for power, still trading? Ya I'm that guy.


LastDino View Post
4. If you are to advice a newcomer, who has no background in the field and is living on average pay, what would it be?

Too much to list here... but REALLY, think about what you're doing, what you're getting yourself into.


Since we're talking hypotheticals... If I really could travel in time... I would explain to former myself what bitcoin is, and what it would be worth. There was a time where you could get several bitcoins for less than a penny. Imagine selling those at $15K at some point? I'd tell myself to acquire bitcoins however possible early on, move to Puerto Rico for several years for the bitcoin boom, sell everything there... then move back to the US after the operation is complete. Easy billionaire.

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LastDino View Post
I was reading a couple of months old thread here

This gave me a little bit of insight on how different it is for different people, and I don't mean the trading part itself, I mean from where you start and where you are right now, your circumstances and your future view.

When I look back at my starting point and what I was thinking, with everything I've been through now, I wouldn't necessarily tell myself to start trading. This drastic change is something I feel is a process that can ruin many newcomers before they even have a fair shot at the game.

So, I feel it would be helpful for newcomers like me if experienced people here can chime in and rid of this illusion in newbie mind that "in couple of years I'll be a millionaire", to make it little easier, I'll put in some questions but please don't be limited to them only to share your experience


1. With everything you know now about the path, would you tell your past self to still do it if you had the chance?
2. Would you call trading a path to be millionaire or path of sacrifice?
3. What sacrifices you made if any before you turned to profitable path?
4. If you are to advice a newcomer, who has no background in the field and is living on average pay, what would it be?

You can add any questions to answer to make the situation more clear for new bloods, as I might have forgotten some.

Thanks and please excuse if this is not appropriate place or repeated topic, I did search but didn't find the similar topic, so thought I should post it.

Hi, thanks for the very interesting thread.
1) since I started by chasing money I would tell myself that it's far easier to make money in any other sector. However now that I have seen all the different aspects of trading I wish I had discovered trading when I was 18. I discovered it when I was 33/34. If I had discovered it before I would not have gone to university. I have made the same effort to get a degree in engineering tat brought very little to my life.
2) definitely a path for misery for a lot of people.... I think there is a very important topic which is not discussed enough, that is "suicide in trading". I recently read a book and the trader spoke openly about suicide. I think it is a very important subject.
3) I cannot say I am profitable yet, though I am seeing many good results.... so maybe the sacrifices are not over. I lost several accounts, in total probably 80K. I decided not to travel much to dedicate time to trading and I put my wife in a lot of stress.
4) if you are a newcomer I would suggest this:
  • Please be objective with yourself, did you achieve any other big goals in your life? were you a bright student or a very poor?
  • Are you sure that you can manage this intellectually? I don't want to be blunt but there are a lot of people who are just not even "right" intellectually, years ago I met a guy who was retarded and he was following a fake guru and he had already lost a fortune in trading. Of course noone dared to tell him "you are not ok" because this is not politically correct, but what will happen to him? I have a friend that has a IQ of 65, basically he is 38 with mental age of 12 yo..... he always says he wants to be a trader. Fortunately he does not speak English so he doesn't have access to all the youtube scammers. I don't think you need to be a genius to be a trader, but make a IQ test and make sure you are around the average at least. (sorry if I came across as unpolite, this was not my intention)
  • Don't be naive, don't risk your own money. Enroll in a combine with Topstep or any other firm of that kind. You pay 300 usd and you have a daily loss of 3000 USD and a drawdown of 4500.... if you can manage risk your get funded and you will make you your 300 usd back, otherwise you just saved 3000 to 4500 USD. Quite a bargain..... you will discover that you cannot manage risk. (it took me 85000$ to discover this I lost them in 6 months, with TopStep I would have lost 2000 USD )
  • Focus on the process, it takes on average 3/4 years to become profitable, and those who tell this number are the ones who became profitable. Most of them are very smart people. There is no way you willl be profitable in 1/2 years, there is too much to learn. It's like learning to play piano, you can do it but you cannot play chopin in 2 years.
  • Give a look to Journals of people who are doing your same journey , mine is here
  • Finally Be part of the community and read, read, read and ask information to people, maybe ask someone to guide you. There are hundreds of way to trade.

I hope this might help

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  #5 (permalink)
 
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 AllSeeker 
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snax View Post
First, some context about where I'm at. This upcoming January will mark 2 years of trading experience. I guess I consider these two years an "initiation", and myself an initiate who is just getting started. I have seen a lot of FIO characters come and go in my short time here and I realize two years isn't much in the grand scheme of things so take this with much salt

I've pointed out in other threads that I wouldn't be able to do this when I was fresh out of college, as I did not have enough discipline or mindfulness necessary for all the adversity we face. Plus there is the issue of capitalization and there weren't any cme micros until 2019 so that would have been a factor as well. Now with the micros you can at least get a feel for live trading with a smaller account.

To answer your first question about would you tell your past self to take up trading, the answer is a definite yes. I feel it suits me and is the type of challenge I look for. I've developed emotional and mental discipline and I feel the best is yet to come.

For me, the "Path" is all there is, and it represents a big part of who I want to be. I don't even think about becoming a millionaire or anything, though I do think about the math and how to start living off of trading alone and how to scale from there, but its more about building a future and having the freedom to be who I want to be and build a life that suits me. If the money accumulates, then it accumulates and is a gift for enjoying the labor put in along the journey. I enjoy the work, and the only time I get drained from it is when the work/trading combination gets stressful, but that really is a blessing to be in a position to have a job and be able to trade so I accept it happily (even if I complain sometimes in my journal after a bad day )

I'm on holiday vacation right now and I am up for the open of the market and enjoying every minute of it. Even losing days energize me after I shake off the loss.

For your second question, I would say trading is a path of opportunity. I wouldn't say its a path to becoming a millionaire, but it can offer the opportunity to become one. I believe it helps if you love the work, some would call the work "sacrifice", others including myself would call it something akin to a "labor of love".

The sacrifices I made to getting here were indirect and not related to trading, I worked hard at my job and made conservative long-term investments, I didn't buy unnecessary expensive things. So now I'm not feeling like I could lose my home or anything like that. I guess I am sacrificing other things I could do with the capital but I can't think of anything materialistic I want more than a trading account.

Advice for a newcomer is put yourself in a position where you can be capitalized, treat it like a long-term career, and expect substantial adversity.

I believe the underlying theme here is that trading can change you for the good, and the path along the way is what matters and goes much deeper than money, even if trading really is just about money, which it is. But the path to becoming successful is much more than that I believe.

I just love reading your posts, btw, 2 years is short period but you have certainly made huge progress, I like your systematic approach and I highly recommend people to read your journal to speed up their own journey.

And I agree with your assessment, trading changes you and its up to us to enjoy the path and if we truly love it, we will usually stick with it for a long enough to make it to the sustainable level. I share the same sentiment.



forrestang View Post

Since we're talking hypotheticals... If I really could travel in time... I would explain to former myself what bitcoin is, and what it would be worth. There was a time where you could get several bitcoins for less than a penny. Imagine selling those at $15K at some point? I'd tell myself to acquire bitcoins however possible early on, move to Puerto Rico for several years for the bitcoin boom, sell everything there... then move back to the US after the operation is complete. Easy billionaire.

I know the feeling, funny thing is when bitcoin was dirt cheap and I didn't even know back then that markets existed, but I still wanted to get some, its sad that I just never had the means.

tldr, who doesn't want to kick their past self for not collecting them?


SBtrader82 View Post
Hi, thanks for the very interesting thread.
1) since I started by chasing money I would tell myself that it's far easier to make money in any other sector. However now that I have seen all the different aspects of trading I wish I had discovered trading when I was 18. I discovered it when I was 33/34. If I had discovered it before I would not have gone to university. I have made the same effort to get a degree in engineering tat brought very little to my life.
2) definitely a path for misery for a lot of people.... I think there is a very important topic which is not discussed enough, that is "suicide in trading". I recently read a book and the trader spoke openly about suicide. I think it is a very important subject.
3) I cannot say I am profitable yet, though I am seeing many good results.... so maybe the sacrifices are not over. I lost several accounts, in total probably 80K. I decided not to travel much to dedicate time to trading and I put my wife in a lot of stress.
4) if you are a newcomer I would suggest this:
  • Please be objective with yourself, did you achieve any other big goals in your life? were you a bright student or a very poor?
  • Are you sure that you can manage this intellectually? I don't want to be blunt but there are a lot of people who are just not even "right" intellectually, years ago I met a guy who was retarded and he was following a fake guru and he had already lost a fortune in trading. Of course noone dared to tell him "you are not ok" because this is not politically correct, but what will happen to him? I have a friend that has a IQ of 65, basically he is 38 with mental age of 12 yo..... he always says he wants to be a trader. Fortunately he does not speak English so he doesn't have access to all the youtube scammers. I don't think you need to be a genius to be a trader, but make a IQ test and make sure you are around the average at least. (sorry if I came across as unpolite, this was not my intention)
  • Don't be naive, don't risk your own money. Enroll in a combine with Topstep or any other firm of that kind. You pay 300 usd and you have a daily loss of 3000 USD and a drawdown of 4500.... if you can manage risk your get funded and you will make you your 300 usd back, otherwise you just saved 3000 to 4500 USD. Quite a bargain..... you will discover that you cannot manage risk. (it took me 85000$ to discover this I lost them in 6 months, with TopStep I would have lost 2000 USD )
  • Focus on the process, it takes on average 3/4 years to become profitable, and those who tell this number are the ones who became profitable. Most of them are very smart people. There is no way you willl be profitable in 1/2 years, there is too much to learn. It's like learning to play piano, you can do it but you cannot play chopin in 2 years.
  • Give a look to Journals of people who are doing your same journey , mine is here
  • Finally Be part of the community and read, read, read and ask information to people, maybe ask someone to guide you. There are hundreds of way to trade.

I hope this might help

I've engineering and Business masters too and while I do agree with your sentiment of starting early, I do think engineering is something that is not wasted, its part of your life experience, there is something about doing engineering that's very different from other graduation streams and I will go out on the limb here and say that if you have survived engineering you will also likely survive trading, its just matter of how many backlogs you can digest

I agree on everything you said, but I would not judge a person based on IQ score, I feel its not really equipped to do the job, I do however support finding a psychologist and doing psychoanalysis of yourself before you jump in with both feet. For example, I've anxiety issues, while I was aware of it I was never really in stressful situations in life, I always did well in whatever I tried so I never really developed the coping mechanisms needed to function under high stress, I can certainly say that if I could've done the above deed myself and did psychoanalysis with professional, I would've certainly developed more favorable environment to support my trading, I eventually did do this and I can say it was certainly a good thing. I'm now a much more calmer person when I have positions open, though I still avoid overnight carry.

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LastDino View Post
I just love reading your posts, btw, 2 years is short period but you have certainly made huge progress, I like your systematic approach and I highly recommend people to read your journal to speed up their own journey.

And I agree with your assessment, trading changes you and its up to us to enjoy the path and if we truly love it, we will usually stick with it for a long enough to make it to the sustainable level. I share the same sentiment.




I know the feeling, funny thing is when bitcoin was dirt cheap and I didn't even know back then that markets existed, but I still wanted to get some, its sad that I just never had the means.

tldr, who doesn't want to kick their past self for not collecting them?



I've engineering and Business masters too and while I do agree with your sentiment of starting early, I do think engineering is something that is not wasted, its part of your life experience, there is something about doing engineering that's very different from other graduation streams and I will go out on the limb here and say that if you have survived engineering you will also likely survive trading, its just matter of how many backlogs you can digest

I agree on everything you said, but I would not judge a person based on IQ score, I feel its not really equipped to do the job, I do however support finding a psychologist and doing psychoanalysis of yourself before you jump in with both feet. For example, I've anxiety issues, while I was aware of it I was never really in stressful situations in life, I always did well in whatever I tried so I never really developed the coping mechanisms needed to function under high stress, I can certainly say that if I could've done the above deed myself and did psychoanalysis with professional, I would've certainly developed more favorable environment to support my trading, I eventually did do this and I can say it was certainly a good thing. I'm now a much more calmer person when I have positions open, though I still avoid overnight carry.

yes, I didn't mean to judge someone by his/her IQ, actually I think in trading it might even be detrimental... but there are some people who (as you say) are not equipped for this job and the industry does not prevent them to trade and to go into deep trouble. The same happened in 2008 here in Europe with old people, the banks were selling advanced financial instruments to elderly people with no protection for them.

I have mixed feelings with my engineering background, from one side it gives me the belief that I can make it in trading no matter what, because I already managed to go through a hard selection at university, but on the other hand I think it I have the tendency to over complicate things. Also the drawback of being an engineer is that we want to be right, because we have been used to be right and also we need exactness... so I also have to focus a lot on psychology.
I always think that if I am long there is someone short and he must have a good reason to be short, so I try to figure out why he is short and to keep both visions in my mind at the same time.
The more I look at trading the more I think that it's not about being right but about the philosophical complexity of having multiple views in the head all at the same times, and switch from one to the other as quickly as possible and try to profit in the meanwhile. It's sort of embracing cognitive dissonance and try to capitalize on it. (as you see I am over complicating things jajaj)

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 AllSeeker 
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Legendary Pratik_4Clover
 
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SBtrader82 View Post
yes, I didn't mean to judge someone by his/her IQ, actually I think in trading it might even be detrimental... but there are some people who (as you say) are not equipped for this job and the industry does not prevent them to trade and to go into deep trouble. The same happened in 2008 here in Europe with old people, the banks were selling advanced financial instruments to elderly people with no protection for them.

I have mixed feelings with my engineering background, from one side it gives me the belief that I can make it in trading no matter what, because I already managed to go through a hard selection at university, but on the other hand I think it I have the tendency to over complicate things. Also the drawback of being an engineer is that we want to be right, because we have been used to be right and also we need exactness... so I also have to focus a lot on psychology.
I always think that if I am long there is someone short and he must have a good reason to be short, so I try to figure out why he is short and to keep both visions in my mind at the same time.
The more I look at trading the more I think that it's not about being right but about the philosophical complexity of having multiple views in the head all at the same times, and switch from one to the other as quickly as possible and try to profit in the meanwhile. It's sort of embracing cognitive dissonance and try to capitalize on it. (as you see I am over complicating things jajaj)

Yup, this is something on which I share your sentiments.

Also, don't worry about complicating things, its in our blood, we want reasons and logical explanations for everything and we have hardest time to accept that sometimes not everything in life will have it. But what we do have is the ability to analyze and find solutions to problem, which is lot more than average person who may not have the same training as we do. It's just matter of we directing that force in right direction

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SBtrader82 View Post
Finally Be part of the community and read, read, read and ask information to people, maybe ask someone to guide you. There are hundreds of way to trade.

I love this statement. I cannot agree more. Never stop learning.

~vmodus

Enjoy everything!
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pullback
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1. With everything you know now about the path, would you tell your past self to still do it if you had the chance?
I would - it's early in, but the path of learning about trading has opened up so many doors: to a potential way to make a living on my own terms, an understanding of and interest in the financial markets, several supportive communities of passionate traders, and a way to wake up early on a Monday

2. Would you call trading a path to be millionaire or path of sacrifice?
Aside from simply understanding the scalability of trading and how you have the potential opportunity to make large sums of money, I would call trading a sacrifice - of time and money. So much time is needed to go into educating yourself - on your strategy, on the markets, on SIM, on psychology, risk management, etc. I think it is very crucial for people to look at the big picture/the long haul especially in the beginning of learning trading, as far too many people realize too late (after suffering losses that make it impossible to continue) that trading is a business that takes a long period of slow and steady growth through mistakes.

3. What sacrifices you made if any before you turned to profitable path?
Besides capital sacrifices, which have been kept on the low side through a proper risk management system and not allowing the gambling mindset to take hold... any specific lifestyle changes, like spending time learning and practicing on the SIM or waking up early (lol) have been welcome changes, and nothing that seriously impacts my life in a negative way. I think the negative sacrifices arise when people fail to plan out a reasonable approach to learning trading. I think it really helps if you enjoy trading and the financial markets even when not thinking about making money/profits. You have to have a true interest in the charts you watch every day to keep coming back every day!

4. If you are to advice a newcomer, who has no background in the field and is living on average pay, what would it be?
Learn the market basics, develop strategies and TRY THEM on the SIM. Refine your strategies as you further educate yourself on the markets out there and styles of trading. Dip your toes in live trading just to see how the emotions change - risk an insignificant amount of money as you will probably lose it. Only go live again after many rounds of profitable SIM trading. If you think of a strategy that seems like it has no downside or is something nobody else has thought of exploiting for profit - you are most likely missing some aspect of the strategy, so look for it. I think everyone has a few "I found a money printer" moments, myself included! Haha.

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