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TOS feel but for small account


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TOS feel but for small account

  #1 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks Given: 75
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I have been paper trading with TOS for awhile and was going to go live in a couple of months. I really wanted to start out with 3-5k trading only futures in ES with 2 contracts at a time. I was leaning towards Infinity Futures over Ninja Trader as those two seemed similar style to TOS and had low margin and account requirements. I just joined this forum today and I rarely see anyone talking about IF. Am I missing something? Open to other platforms as well but for small starter accounts. Any suggestions/feedback would be much appreciated!

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  #3 (permalink)
 
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 wldman 
Chicago Illinois USA
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Broker: IB, ToS
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but, why not use ToS if it is what you are familiar with?

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  #4 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
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TOS requires a margin of around $7000 per contract (versus $500 for IF and NT). (I think TOS also require a minimum balance of $15,000 if you day trade futures). Their contract fees are higher too. Some days I'm doing 30+ contracts so the fees do add up!

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  #5 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
desert CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT7, various
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I've had TOS for a long time, but only have used it for stocks and options and general charting for other instruments. It's come a long way since becoming part of TDA. I remember hearing that futures trading margin requirements could be "negotiated" but I'm not sure about that now. @MassiveL I believe, trades futures in TOS. He may know more about whether TOS futures margins can be discounted.

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  #6 (permalink)
 futs 
Clearwater FL US
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Etrade, Tradovate and TOS
Trading: SPX, /ES, /MES, Options
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A few people in TOS Chat have the day trading margin, but I believe it requires a larger account or history with them.

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  #7 (permalink)
fullyLeveraged
Tampa Bay
 
Posts: 1 since Jul 2018
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You should be able to use 25% of regular margin if you have over $15k in your account. Their commissions are high. Last time I talked to them the negotiated rate was $1.75 plus fees for 500 contracts a month.

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  #8 (permalink)
 centaurer 
south africa
 
Posts: 169 since Dec 2018

If you want to trade two ES contracts with $5k you are basically saying you want to use 50:1 leverage.

That is just a total waste of money. Go spend the money on something fun instead of lighting it on fire using 50:1 leverage.

The certainty of your account going to zero will increase with the number of trades you make. 50:1 leverage will turn any winning system into a loser.

This is the same reason that FX bucket shops will extend 100:1 leverage. It guarantees the account goes to zero.

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  #9 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks Given: 75
Thanks Received: 92


fullyLeveraged View Post
You should be able to use 25% of regular margin if you have over $15k in your account. Their commissions are high. Last time I talked to them the negotiated rate was $1.75 plus fees for 500 contracts a month.

I only want to start with 3-5k max in my account, so TOS is out, whereas Ninja Trader has 1k account min and $500 margin requirement and Infinity Futures has 3k minimum to start account and $500 margin. While I love the platform of TOS, I think their fees are too high for someone who is just starting out (I can really only day trade 2-3 days a week because I work full time so I use on paper under 200 contracts a month).

I'm just trying to take my time finding one that will meet the needs for my small account to start with, but still satisfy my desire for great customer support and fees and fill speed as my account grows!

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  #10 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks Given: 75
Thanks Received: 92



centaurer View Post
If you want to trade two ES contracts with $5k you are basically saying you want to use 50:1 leverage.

That is just a total waste of money. Go spend the money on something fun instead of lighting it on fire using 50:1 leverage.

The certainty of your account going to zero will increase with the number of trades you make. 50:1 leverage will turn any winning system into a loser.

This is the same reason that FX bucket shops will extend 100:1 leverage. It guarantees the account goes to zero.

I have been futures trading on paper with TOS for awhile and my win to lose ratio is roughly 4:1 with my losses being on the minimal side and my wins at times being quite nice. I have had some $500-$1000 day profits trading only 1-2 contracts at a time so I was thinking I was ready to go with a live account, but really don't want to get burned. I do know that TOS is misleading in the fact that orders get filled as soon as price point is hit (rather than sitting in a queue line to be filled in reality), but I was profitable on Ninja Trader demo and Infinity Futures demo as well.

My thought was that with a 3k account, if I risked 5% on two contracts that's 6 ticks which is where I start my stops. I take my first profit at 3 ticks and move my stop up as long as it is moving in my favor, and often sit it on break even or break even plus one and let the other contract run as much as I think the market will give it. I don't plan on going on more than two contracts at a time until I can get my balance up to like 10k. Real $ is going to be more emotional for sure, but I am trying to stick with my system that seems to be working well which includes walking away when the market is spanking me to wait for better set-ups later.

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Last Updated on May 3, 2019


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