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Advanced Trading workshop ATW
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Advanced Trading workshop ATW

  #41 (permalink)
Elite Member
knoxville tennessee usa
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: nijia trader
Broker/Data: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Favorite Futures: ym
 
Posts: 401 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 84 given, 164 received

your charts look clean


Ozefex View Post
Hi Forgiven, Thank you for a balanced and sensible response. I agree with what you are saying. I'm not promoting any vendor or software, just responding to an earlier comment that something was 100% BS (I thought that statement was flippant and ill-informed) <<--KEY POINT. But we all say things like that sometimes, so no big deal.

If I can work out how to post a couple of images here & it is not against the forum rules, I'll show you my trades from yesterday - from around the London open up to the point I got side-tracked with this conversation. I also point out that I just started a Topstep Combine yesterday too (you can see my account name starting with Jan11 on the Rithmic dashboard). I've passed a couple of Combines before & had a funded account, but screwed it up so am starting again (I mentioned something previously about not having spare cash, which is why I'm using Topstep - who I don't represent either.)

Unfortunately, it is now the 12th so the Rithmic dashboard (used to register Topstep trades) doesn't show all the trades, just the total which includes profit, less commissions for the day. You can see my trades on the 610 tick chart so you can figure it out. I've also posted a Flux chart for the same time period. I did not use this chart as I only just received it by a promotional/review email. The signals were generated ahead of time and look pretty good to me. While BTTF don't give free trials, they do send out the predicted signals for a couple of markets each & every week for Wed & Thur (they send them ahead of time if you register for free). They then run a live review of the signals as they occur. I don't normally watch them, but looking at the CL chart, maybe I should. Anyway, my friend who lets me view his chart via screen share has a whole lot of stuff on his charts, mostly based around a 1 tick Renko and it doesn't look as simple as this. He is in the US and wasn't out of bed when I took my trades so I didn't have his screen share either.

The attached Flux chart is just one of many ways the signals can be presented. It looks ridiculously simple here, but the actual extent of the moves don't always work this well, even if the timing is good. You definitely need other analysis for that. Sometimes the signals only last for 1 bar, sometimes the moves actually go in the opposite direction to that predicted. You can't just buy the software and become a millionaire (yep, I know they all say that as a lead to "yes you can"...). I took pretty similar trades without the Flux chart, so it's not the only way to do it (that's another reason I'm not rushing out to buy the software).

I have about 10 different charts I'm using to look at one market (CL) - (none of which include a Moving Average). That many charts seems ridiculous too, but I'm not that good of a trader with just price action, so I need some help. They all have their own features & when they line up, the trade is usually good. If all trades went as well as yesterday (and Wednesday after the Crude Stock Report), I'd be loading up the contracts and making a killing. I'm not there yet, hopefully soon.

There are a lot of really good traders posting on this site and I've learned a lot reading their comments. Of course, there are some that are trying to run a scam just like everywhere else. You have to do your research and figure it out, because often you don't know who to trust or what their agenda is (I've read a whole lot of stuff on BTTF including exposures of scam trading site reviewers, but that is another topic - just Google it).

Now I'm not attempting to promote my trading style/methods either. I'm still figuring them out myself. I'm not starting my own thread and won't respond to any questions on what I'm doing (sorry, but I just don't have the time).

My thanks to Big Mike for providing this site. It definitely is the best available.

What I am attempting to post here is:

1 - My 610 tick chart showing my trades for the day (until interrupted) - Man, I wish they were all like this.
2 - My Rithmic dashboard showing the P&L for the day
3 - The Flux chart (received after the event). I could go back & find the deleted email from earlier in the week that would have included these signal times, but I'm not going to because I know the signals will be the same.
4 - A 5000 tick chart showing some market geometry I was using (along with a random SIM trade that I forgot about - I usually use a stop). I originally set this up as a 30000 tick chart but have reduced it to 5000 for clarity.

(Attachments via my Google Drive, so if viewing this weeks or months from now, the files won't be there. Please don't ask me to look for them!)

1 - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4um_0YwIsK7UEw3dlFxanpWTE0
2 - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4um_0YwIsK7RmxpeG40bDlfX3c
3 - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4um_0YwIsK7SFNtR0NpWUFnVFE
4 - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4um_0YwIsK7dkdZT1NIRTVXMjg

i am very sorry if i made a comment that was degrading .... you received a hard time from me and jonny boy...because.we know the vendor... he has posted pretending to be a user...he does that kind of stuff...he also hypes the software... cherry picking screen shots an takes advantage of new traders ..3000 with no free trail or support ... over the long run if he quits the software will the uses less at some point...let me give you an example ..you said you have OFA well so do i..i paid 10,000 for life time software and education 7 years ago. well guess what DB. changed ever thing around and i had to pay 1400 for ninja and just F the life time education ...we have new instructors you have to pay now.. thousands... you see vendors have to keep selling you stuff...Jonny Boy is a good guy ..he is looking out like me for new trader...i ask this vendor for a free trail and he refused. now i would like to look at your stuff my self....i would like to know how it works i have a open mind... and you can post any thing you want as long as it is on subject.. i do not think your a vendor now so if i can help with anything send me a private message...


Last edited by forgiven; January 13th, 2017 at 01:20 AM.
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The following user says Thank You to forgiven for this post:
 
  #42 (permalink)
Elite Member
knoxville tennessee usa
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: nijia trader
Broker/Data: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Favorite Futures: ym
 
Posts: 401 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 84 given, 164 received

time frame

you are using very small time frames and trading CL it has a lot of noise. it would be hard to see how it works on that ..move it to a 30 min. chart and use the 10 or 30 year U.S. bond futures . then look at the signals or the YM. if it works it should be fractal..meaning it should work on all time frames. what time frame are you using to I.D. the trend. that is the one that matters ...if you only have data for CL send 30min. for it. most of the pro trader i have seen using gann time studies or fib. time clusters trade FX,,they use E-waves and or median lines... when it pulls into the zone they look for a reversal candle and and time cycle conflunce ,,, but they use much higher time frames. 240 60 30 min. charting...


Last edited by forgiven; January 13th, 2017 at 01:04 AM. Reason: SX
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  #43 (permalink)
Elite Member
Melbourne, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader, Metatrader
Favorite Futures: CL and others...
 
Posts: 12 since Jun 2014
Thanks: 12 given, 2 received

Clarity?



JonnyBoy View Post
Stating facts is one thing. Stating facts with proof other than words is something else altogether - that is what will warrant a conversation.

You think the indicators are "a bit expensive for me right now" - that is exactly the kind of tactic a vendor would use writing about their own product to steer people off of the scent of them being the actual poster.

That kind of says it all in my opinion. You have this amazing indicator right in front of you and you don't have the "spare cash" to buy it? C'mon man. That tells me everything right there.

Hi JB, I hope my last post has clarified my view / position a little. I just thought a couple of you guys were judging the product by someone who was promoting it. The product actually does have some merit but it's certainly not the whole answer to trading.

I've yet to see any product for sale that is not over promoted, in trading or otherwise. Doesn't matter if it is you selling your car, an ad for a vacuum cleaner or fitness product or whatever. Only the good points are promoted. Sometimes there is blatant dishonesty involved, other times it is just selective use of facts.

Anyway, enough of that. I went back to have a look at your trading journal. I haven't read it all, but what I have read is really honest and helpful. I think we're on the same page with a lot of stuff. Despite my post showing a very impressive trading day, this is my no means representative. I wish it was. I'm trying to be more mechanical / systems orientated, but I forget my dot points sometimes.

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  #44 (permalink)
Elite Member
Melbourne, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader, Metatrader
Favorite Futures: CL and others...
 
Posts: 12 since Jun 2014
Thanks: 12 given, 2 received

BTTF / OFA / FTSEman


forgiven View Post
i am very sorry if i made a comment that was degrading .... you received a hard time from me and jonny boy...because.we know the vendor... he has posted pretending to be a user...he does that kind of stuff...he also hypes the software... cherry picking screen shots an takes advantage of new traders ..3000 with no free trail or support ... over the long run if he quits the software will the uses less at some point...let me give you an example ..you said you have OFA well so do i..i paid 10,000 for life time software and education 7 years ago. well guess what DB. changed ever thing around and i had to pay 1400 for ninja and just F the life time education ...we have new instructors you have to pay now.. thousands... you see vendors have to keep selling you stuff...Jonny Boy is a good guy ..he is looking out like me for new trader...i ask this vendor for a free trail and he refused. now i would like to look at your stuff my self....i would like to know how it works i have a open mind... and you can post any thing you want as long as it is on subject.. i do not think your a vendor now so if i can help with anything send me a private message...

Hey, no problems. As per my comment to JonnyBoy, I thought you guys were judging the product (harshly) by the promoter.

I know there are no free trials, not sure why, but there are plenty of opportunities to review it live if you register, get the signals in advance & attend the live review. Not sure if this happens every Wed & Thur, but I have been getting regular emails providing links to signals in advance. I'm just reluctant to watch reviews/webinars during trading time - which in retrospect is a little stupid. As I said previously, most days recently I have been watching a friend's screen via screen share (for evaluation purposes only of course). Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes I forget to watch it as I'm concentrating on my own setups. Apart from Flux signals, he / we (group of 4, 1 other also uses Flux & other stuff) use divergence tools, market geometry (trend lines, channels, pitchforks, etc.), and more stuff than I want to list.

If anyone wants some ideas on drawing lines on charts, have a look at John FTSEman on YouTube. He does some really interesting videos. Look for Action Reaction Lines (ACR) for example. His videos started off very amateurish (sort of still are, but he's not selling anything), but they've got some very good content. I found an ACR line (after the event) that picked the bottom of the crude move on Friday exactly. Just wish I saw it beforehand.

I'm surprised you couldn't sort something out with OFA, I didn't think JB was that much of a hard ass. You must have bought the legacy system before the move to NT at that price. I have the last NT version before release of the algo package. I still use it, but couldn't trade with it alone. Overall I've found the OFA people and product very good. They really made a blunder with the Chip Cole Bonds course though. From what I saw on the guys twitter feed he had plenty of money, but he sure wasn't making it during the live trading room I paid good money for. He could have got breakeven, but I doubt anyone that followed him did. I didn't try to see what happened in the end, I just stopped paying. A couple of other trainers were very good with either courses or trade rooms, but I just couldn't see the things they were seeing in real time. I started my own room as a breakaway from the Bonds course and we had one of the other OFA traders join us. After a while we went in different directions.

The trade results I posted previously were outstanding. Including a SIM trade that I forgot I put on, I would have made I think 190 ticks from a 132 tick range day on CL (the SIM was running concurrently, the other trades were separate). I crashed and burned Friday giving a lot of profit back. Not following my (basic) rules, not seeing the obvious, etc. Most of that was from the London open to the S&P open. I only posted that stuff to show I'm not completely full of shit and that the BTTF signals made sense on the day (even if I didn't have them at the time). I'm yet to claim I've "made it" as a trader, despite spending 10, 12, even 18 hours a day researching, testing & trading. Keep thinking I'm close, then get my arse (ass) kicked.

I'll consider some of you other comments etc. when I get to it. Thanks.

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  #45 (permalink)
Elite Member
knoxville tennessee usa
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: nijia trader
Broker/Data: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Favorite Futures: ym
 
Posts: 401 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 84 given, 164 received

looks like you have been through the ringer too

i did not have to buy OFA ninja..i did receive 50% of...i was using that as a example of the danger in buying 3 party software...the vendors go out of business in general they have to keep selling...D.B. is no different...that is why you see all the different educators ..an OFA algo i could have bought all that stuff at a deep discount... but in 2 years will he still be there or will it be some new b.s. now as far as back to the future goes ...he makes people mad...he made me mad , JhonnyBoy...i think big mike too just reviewing post. if you take the time to google his reviews on other sights it is far worse they hate him review after review 100s of them. we are good to him compared to other places. i just ask for a trail and he was nasty. no way would i pay for software with out a trail...if it was worth while i might of bought it... i do not no the guy but he makes people mad. if i was him i would give every one on big mikes a free trail..no tell how much he could sell even its bad he would still sell a ton. for me no free trail is a no starter..

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  #46 (permalink)
Elite Member
Melbourne, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader, Metatrader
Favorite Futures: CL and others...
 
Posts: 12 since Jun 2014
Thanks: 12 given, 2 received

Software

You'll have to recognise that software such as OFA and BTTF (not putting them in the same camp) are outright purchases. The only future charges are for say new versions for updated platforms (NT7 to NT8 for example). It shouldn't matter too much if the vendor goes out of business in the short term as the software will still work (maybe not if they have some way or reason to cancel your licence).

My NT7 OFA should work for years on NT7. If I move to NT8 I can still run NT7 side-by-side if I want. Not doing that yet as I have more NT7 dependent stuff than NT8. Only issue is that the processor intensive indicators I have are all still NT7.

If I want the new OFA Algo package, I would have to buy it for NT8, or integrated with Multiwave or Tradovate (both recently released).

I bought Bookmap through Stage5 brokerage, outright & for a discount. It takes data via an indicator that must be installed on one open NT7 or NT8* chart (say on your default workspace). I could also run it via the free S5Trader or independently from IQFeed. Now they've changed to a subscription model which I wouldn't be so keen on as a new customer (the suppliers are Velox).

* - I just realised the last Bookmap update included an indicator link for NT8. Have to try that as NT7 freezes on very fast data.

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  #47 (permalink)
Elite Member
knoxville tennessee usa
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: nijia trader
Broker/Data: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Favorite Futures: ym
 
Posts: 401 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 84 given, 164 received

you are making my point

any time you buy out wright any third party software ...you have no idea if the vendor will even be there a week. you have to keep re buying it if they are. if there are problems you have no idea how well it is supported, you have no idea how well the educational value of there over all program is... no idea...just send us 2000 to 10,000 trust us...lola most of the time it is a scam taking advantage on new traders that are looking for treasure maps... that is just the facts..i would not do that with any vendor ...if you want too .. i sure hope you do well with the program...good luck and good trading..

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  #48 (permalink)
 Vendor: backtothefuturetrading.com 
East Bend
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation, MetaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus/Kinetick
Favorite Futures: Futures, Oil, Gold, NQ
 
Posts: 47 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 2 given, 59 received

That's actually a very real problem and not one that most vendors address when they start up. There's always this general assumption that they'll always be "around" and never goes away, which is almost always the case. It's important, I believe to have a "doomsday" plan - what happens to the code or the customers if the company dissolves or disbands? The most responsible companies agree to release their code for all versions of the platforms "unlocked" to the customers if the company ever stops selling that code. Unless you have that kind of guarantee in place, it's almost foolish to start up with them in the case you become dependent on the algorithm that drives the signals. . . .



forgiven View Post
any time you buy out wright any third party software ...you have no idea if the vendor will even be there a week. you have to keep re buying it if they are. if there are problems you have no idea how well it is supported, you have no idea how well the educational value of there over all program is... no idea...just send us 2000 to 10,000 trust us...lola most of the time it is a scam taking advantage on new traders that are looking for treasure maps... that is just the facts..i would not do that with any vendor ...if you want too .. i sure hope you do well with the program...good luck and good trading..


Please send me a Private Message if you have any questions about BTTFT services
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  #49 (permalink)
 Vendor: backtothefuturetrading.com 
East Bend
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation, MetaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus/Kinetick
Favorite Futures: Futures, Oil, Gold, NQ
 
Posts: 47 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 2 given, 59 received

RE: Apologies to the Futures IO Community


xplorer View Post
I stopped reading after this.


I want to formally apologize to the Futures IO community.

First - I'm a horrible forum poster. I can never accurately tell what people are feeling or thinking when they write something, and I'm really bad at communicating a response that doesn't come across as hostile, or agressive. When I write back, I'm basically an a**hole (reading my own posts back to myself, years later).

For this ^^^ I am sorry.

Second - I didn't handle this well, at all. The whole Sniper Scalping thing. It's a sh**tstorm in a can. And I botched it up, and made it worse.

Yes - of course we had an affiliation with Sniper Scalping. Of course we did. There's zero ways to deny it. I was trying to communicate that we (BTTFT) weren't Sniper Scalping on a company level. I stated that so people would know whatever crap storm they got into for compliance was their storm - not ours.

-------------edited/redacted---------------------

-------------edited/redacted---------------------

I've always had a very hostile attitude coming in here and posting things and commenting. I honestly (repeating myself) am horrible at it. I always perceive people's attitudes in the forum however as hating anyone who builds tools with a website, which (in my mind) perpetuates this cycle. I just read one member accusing me (for example) of coming in here with a fake user profile and writing nice things about the software as a fake poster. I don't even think he knows Mike has IP detection in place to make sure that can't happen. That someone new can't post a review on something without a minimum number of prior posts. But the post is up there - and people read it and believe it - because everything on the internet is true. So I respond - and sound like an ass, and create more hostility............and it blows up even further.

I want to stop the cycle.

I can't change what other people write - or how they right it - but Mike himself said, "take the bricks other people throw at you and build something with them". At first I didn't like hearing that - it sounded patronizing, honestly. But Mike is the expert with this forum, and I thought - he must know what he's saying - so I'm listening.

I am sincerely apologetic for how I responded to the Sniper Scalping debacle. I blew it - and I'm very sorry.

------------edited/redacted-----------------

Moving forward - I have several questions.

First - does anyone have any questions about our involvement with Sniper Scalping - as an affiliate sales partner? I'm happy to answer them.

------------edited/redacted-----------------

Lastly - I'm very sorry (again). I screwed up.

Any suggestions for how I can be a more productive participant at Futures IO going forward?

Michael

Please send me a Private Message if you have any questions about BTTFT services

Last edited by BTTFT Michael; April 27th, 2017 at 02:27 PM.
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  #50 (permalink)
Elite Member
knoxville tennessee usa
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: nijia trader
Broker/Data: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Favorite Futures: ym
 
Posts: 401 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 84 given, 164 received

lot of good that does



BTTFT Michael View Post
That's actually a very real problem and not one that most vendors address when they start up. There's always this general assumption that they'll always be "around" and never goes away, which is almost always the case. It's important, I believe to have a "doomsday" plan - what happens to the code or the customers if the company dissolves or disbands? The most responsible companies agree to release their code for all versions of the platforms "unlocked" to the customers if the company ever stops selling that code. Unless you have that kind of guarantee in place, it's almost foolish to start up with them in the case you become dependent on the algorithm that drives the signals. . . .

when the platform it runs on like ninja 7 for example is not supported . how are the traders with third party b.s. software going to move it to ninja 8. the code is not the same. when you buy third party software you are hung out to dry sooner or later. the traders here up date the free indicators for a platform faster than the ones you pay for. ( if the indicator is not here for free...you do not need it )

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