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Has anyone ever heard of Felton Trading? (www.feltontrading.com)


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Has anyone ever heard of Felton Trading? (www.feltontrading.com)

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  #201 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Trading: 6E, CL, GC
 
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Posts: 132 since Apr 2010


Trader Duck View Post
monpere: "I believe that all the trading education outfits out there are business solely geared to make profits for their owners. These educators are teaching because they can't make a living trading. I did programming work for one of these outfits for 2 years, so I knew the internals of that particular education service.

Why would you want to spend 10 hour days in a trading room, and doing sales, and preparing presentations, doing back end customer related work, etc. etc. for a small education business, if you can spend a few hours a day trading and making a good income? When you ask them, they will say, "I do this because I love teaching", That is pure bull !!!, they do it because it's easier for them to make a living that way then for them to make a living trading."

I don't agree with you, some really do like to teach. Some are snake oil and some are not. The more you have studied, the better your chance to pick a good one.
If I could get my money back from every method I bought, I would say, "No thanks, I got my money's worth."
It seems like the good ones give a free trial. That's a pretty good indication that they think their method will sell itself. Having said that, let me add that I havn't found any that I thougt were great teachers, but they do know how to trade. Felton didn't impress me. I've seen his teaser webinars and my trading method (to me) is better.


Two interesting sides of the coin. Monpere takes a more narrow but understandable view of the trading education industry. The vast majority of trading "gurus" have no business teaching something they can't do. In this business, even free advice can be terribly expensive if it's wrong. If teaching traders to be their best involved all the work monpere describes, I'd probably take his advice and just trade. But nearly every business involves teamwork where the best people are hired to perform specific duties. In this business, no single person can do it all. But I honestly love what I do and I'll not apologize for that.

Trader Duck brings up another good point. Nobody will ever be able to be all things to all traders. One of the first things I tell students is to never abandon what is working for them already. Trader Duck's system is, in his words, better than mine . He's trading a system he fully understands, not mine which he doesn't. Logically speaking, Trader Duck's system is evidently already providing a nice income for him and keeps him in the top 10% of the world's traders consistently. I commend Trader Duck for not being tempted to change horses in the middle of a race he's already winning. That would make no sense.

In my entire working life, as with most people, everything involved providing a service of some kind that was needed by others whether is was as an employee or running a company. This aspect of "working" has always been very important to me and I always strived to be the best at whatever I did. I got tremendous satisfaction in knowing that effort made other's lives better in some way. With pure trading, I'm not providing a service to anyone. The money is great, but something huge is missing.

Over the years, I've found that you can never argue personal values with someone that believes all that matters in life is making money. Personally, I don't think any individual possesses the wisdom to tell others how they should earn a living or what their personal motivations should be. But I could be wrong.

It always struck me as extremely odd that Trading Education is the only arena where the educators are vilified, not on the basis of their talents and knowledge, but simply because of the field in which they teach.

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  #202 (permalink)
Chicago, IL
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Hi all,
I've gotten a few queries from people wanting an update. It's been 3 weeks now since I've joined FT. No, I'm not trading live yet. I hope to get there in the next week or so. The indicators have a lot to them and it takes time to learn the different options and set them up so they work for you. I have talked to classmates independently and can tell you it is working for others after a few months. I think you can do it faster than that if you have some trading experience and are willing to put in the work. I've also had some technical challenges (I suggest you get a computer with lots of RAM and run Windows 7 before running FT) which are just about sorted out now.
Overall, am I glad I am here? Yes definitely. Even if these indicators aren't any better thank anyone else's (and I think that they ARE better than most) one thing I have not found in many other places is daily trading, daily training AND mentoring. And I was excited to read that Roger is bringing a psychologist on board...which brings me to my next point...there is no holy grail! You have to master your own emotions and psychology to make any system work (I highly highly recommend Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas if you haven't read it).
Lastly, I noticed some people questioning whether the trades taken in the live trading room are real. They are. Not every single one is take in front of the room because Roger and Clint trade off...but even after Roger is off, he'll post his trades in the chat portion of the room real time; I've followed some of them and they're legit.
I hope that helps...feel free to ask me any other questions you may have.

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  #203 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
Experience: Master
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rogerf View Post
Hope everyone had a super Thanksgiving and took some time to help someone less fortunate.

As many futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members know, they have free and unlimited access to the Trading Room. Their feedback is appreciated but only if genuine, good or bad. Pretty good deal, I'd say.

If anyone believes that they can become a great trader by simply watching someone trade a Live Account, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change their mind. But the truth is, it proves nothing. The only thing that proves the validity and value of a trading system is how the students themselves are doing. Nothing else matters.

When someone who masters a successful system is unsuccessful, the only logical reason is they haven't yet achieved the mental mastery that is absolutely essential to success. If you lack emotional control, then there's not a system on earth, no matter how good it is, that will help you.

The psychological side of trading is so important that I have hired a Doctorate of Psychology who has many years of trading and mentoring experience to come on board starting in December. He will be assisting traders on a full time basis to overcome the mental demons that plague so many traders and sabotage their success. Lack of this type of assistance is what causes most traders to fail...not because they didn't get to watch the "guru" trade his Live Account. Many traders can't afford this level of professional help but I feel it is imperative to success and will be offered free to benefit our traders. He'll be conducting several webinars that futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members are free to attend, of course.

Exiledgoblin is right, traders expecting to match my results are in for a rude awakening if they refuse to do the work. There's training, close mentorship and lots of practice ahead. I'm a very conservative trader so beating my results isn't that hard...it's done often in the room by students. And I love it...means I'm doing my job.

Roger Felton

just curious, are you sure you got it all right in terms of your newly hired--Doctorate of Psychology? which is another great idea in addition to graciously allowing bmt members to attend your daily trading room gratis.

now coming back to your new hire, he did earn a Doctor of Psychology degree from some higher learning institutions, correct? and he himself never refers to his academic achievement as a Doctorate of Psychology, or does he? if he does, then you perhaps need to pay close attention.

most probably, he would say that he has earned a doctorate degree in psy (as distinguished from a ba or ma degree holder) and not a doctorate of psy degree, isn't that quite correct? just want to bring it to your attention, so when you present him in public or in your own trading room, you would be able to address and introduce him properly--only if you wish, roger.

to quote you--The psychological side of trading is so important that I have hired a Doctorate of Psychology who has many years of trading and mentoring experience to come on board starting in December....

an academically earned Ph.D. individual in psy area is not easy to come by at all, not even from among reputedly notorious cab drivers in new york city, who also are in possession of advance degrees but prefer the freedom to roam, drive, service and help those coming to visit the famous apple....

and on top of that, according to you, he also has many years of trading and mentoring experience as well.... now that is truly a big big plus on your column, roger. congratulations is in order indeed.

and perhaps, you would surely grant me another occasion to join your trading room, when he is on line live, to hear his wisdom in learning how to trade profitably for a living, won't you?

do you also know whether the initials appearing behind his name, contain a Ph.D. or an Ed.D. or other more modernized certifications?

as you also know that there are several specializations in the field of psy, such as; sports psy, experimental psy, cognitive psy, learning theory psy, abnormal psy et al; which is his field of specialization pls?

nevertheless, it is a very wise and far reaching decision to hire a full time qualified trading psychologist on your team. congrats again, roger. (just my humble one man opinion having nothing to do with nothing)

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  #204 (permalink)
San Diego, California
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Felton
Trading: CL, GC
 
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nakachalet View Post
... and perhaps, you would surely grant me another occasion to join your trading room, when he is on line live, to hear his wisdom in learning how to trade profitably for a living, won't you? ...

Of course Roger is going to allow you another occasion to join the trading room. You know that futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members are granted that. However, I'm curious. You were in the trading room for I think a week awhile back. It took me only about three days' worth of the free trial to figure out that Felton Trading was what my trading plan lacked. What exactly would a repeat visit do for you that you couldn't figure out in a week of being there? What exactly are you looking for that you're not finding by visiting the room?

Sorry, Roger, but I've been meaning to answer this gentleman for a few of his posts now.

Sawadee!!!

Hap

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  #205 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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Hapster View Post
Of course Roger is going to allow you another occasion to join the trading room. You know that futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members are granted that. However, I'm curious. You were in the trading room for I think a week awhile back. It took me only about three days' worth of the free trial to figure out that Felton Trading was what my trading plan lacked. What exactly would a repeat visit do for you that you couldn't figure out in a week of being there? What exactly are you looking for that you're not finding by visiting the room?

Sorry, Roger, but I've been meaning to answer this gentleman for a few of his posts now.

Sawadee!!!

Hap

ahhh, sawadee krub, hapster:

to be exact i was there three times, if that would help to jolt your memory.

i am also very happy that you've found the missing link in your trading setup and that ft could fill up that trading vacuum in your trading plan, seriously. you are very fortunate that you found the missing link so early on in your trading sojour, while many are still searching for that personal holy grail.

if you were to read my entire response in reference to ft, you would come to the conclusion that i am more in support of what he is doing than showering his school with negativities as you might have misconstrued the entire scene.

i also stated in one of my several responses that rogerf is probable a profitable trader. do you know why i dare to make that statement which i never made for any other trading schools yet (i only visited a few, whence time permits)?

the reason is really simplistic--his trading setup and contraption are quite similar to one of my own contraptions. i like to make the call as i see it and i gave credit to rogerf for all the positive impact.

as to why i would like a return visit since i was already there for 3 sessions? ahh, did you or did you not notice that rogerf has vaulted his training school to another level just this morning?

did you not read my response to his announcement of hiring a brand new psy person starting from dec? ah, you really ought to scroll back and read it which would invariably answer your question nicely, i presume, as to why i like to return to ft again?

honestly speaking, a psy person with prior experiences in live trading (profitable or not, is not an issue here) and accumulated hand-on teaching experiences, providing traders training for others who seek profitability is a true rarity, don't you think? do you think i would pass up that opportunity to listen and learn a few new insights from such a highly qualified entity, for free?

now to enlighten you and others, particularly Jillzy who kindly expounded her personal experiences in the ft trading room for other traders here on bmt which is much appreciated too.

perhaps, you, jillzy and many others are not aware that currently there are at least 3 trading parties or more who are using similar contraption and most also claim profitability but in view of the fact that there is no statistical evidence to prove or disprove their claims, who is to say if or when their claims are truly spurious or not.

if you have any doubt about what i stated, pls take another look at the attachment which was posted once already during the last month or so. however the person addressed to, somehow chooses not to respond, which is also alright with me. it is a trader's prerogative not to implicate oneself which i also believe in, silly as it might seem, alright?

likewise, as for Jillzy, who kindly expounded her personal experiences in ft for other traders, i said thank you for sharing your observation with us here. and you also stated that--Even if these indicators aren't any better thank (sic) anyone else's (and I think that they ARE better than most).... may i also draw your attention to the attachment as well, ok?

inasmuch as i am in no position to judge in regard to the true original proprietor of the attachment, it is a shame to all the darling pretenders to the throne, attempting to claime proprietorialship when, in fact, most likely they are only imposters at best, imho.

now please do not get all worked up and bombard me, i already stated that.... in my humble opinion, OK?

as for you, hap krub, i would like to share my secret wish with you in reference to another secret reason i like to temporarily revisit your guru's trading room again with his and bev's permission, of course--that this reputed psy person would be able to convincingly point out to rogerf that....

THERE TRULY EXIST A SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT BETWEEN TRADING SIM AND TRADING LIVE WITH YOUR OWN MONEY.... which most trading for a living already discern and accept as another immutable and indisputable fact....

anyway, we'll see.... if rogerf's new hire--psychologist would dare to approach this subject with rogerf, which rogerf himself has been eluding and evading ever since his first post or so, with so many variations of excuse....LOL

as for him, our trading fellow rogerf, who stated again and again that apparently to him, there is no significant difference whether or not to trade sim or live, and i quote:

If anyone believes that they can become a great trader by simply watching someone trade a Live Account, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change their mind. But the truth is, it proves nothing.

rogerf, with all due respect, i hope your very own in-house psychologist would be able to shed some new light in your direction, so you would awake from your walter mitty environ, and stop insisting that--it makes no difference for traders or traders to be, whether the trading room is trading live or trading sim.

it seems only persons who never place a live trade before, would be denied that element of euphorically levitated experiences when the first live trade is being triggered.... well, as i said repeatedly, you are your own absolute master and whatever direction you take is also alright with me, a third party observer. as stated before, whatever personal and professional reason you have for not wanting to go on live account--is cheerfully respected by my humble self also, K? hope to see you again soon with your new psy person in action.

my humble apology to everyone who suffers thru my sort of wishing and nudging my trading friend, rogerf, toward becoming a fully mature guru in trading education.... unless and until rogerf turns live and trades live--IF NOTHING ELSE, TO PROVE TO HIMSELF, MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE; he will forever remain in the shadow... which i personally believe he honestly deserves much better exposure than that.... but then, at the very end.... it is all up to his own good self, isn't that so, rogerf?

pls do remember to compare the attached different setups claimed by different gurus as their own proprietorial properties and decide for yourself, who is the real original inventor, developer, programmer or coder, K? my apology everyone and thx much for your long suffering and indulgence, i solemnly promise to be more concise and succinct next time.

before i sign off though, perhaps you ought to know, the entity, as far as i know, who works up the original code is still working hard and feverishly among us even today. and the person is not among these pretenders to the throne by any long shot.... no, i do not have his permission to broadcast his identity, so i'd better shutup for now.

any more questions, khun hap....?

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  #206 (permalink)
Toronto, ON
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/CQG and Interactive Brokers
Trading: ES
 
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Posts: 71 since Aug 2009
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I have no wish to vilify anyone. And the argument that if someone were any good at trading they would not be teaching is a kind of Catch 22. Sort of like: "If you know you don't teach. If you teach you don't know." This effectively rules out a priori that there could be any such thing as a valuable trading education.

I am simply trying to do some due diligence before sinking money into stuff I cannot test before purchasing and cannot get a refund on afterwards. I'm finished with that trap!!!

So apart from the impressive SIM numbers daily racked up by Roger and Clint in the Felton Trading room here are some additional numbers I'd be very interested in:

1. What percentage of Felton students wind up making money as successful traders? Given that they have the DivergencePro software and Roger's training and mentoring, what are the odds of being successful? Obviously, I'm not asking that anyone predict the success of any particular student. I'm asking for some historical stats on success rates.

2. In an effort to factor the various dimensions of Roger's impressive numbers it would be helpful if we could get a fix on the performance of the DivergencePro software itself. That is, it would be helpful if we had back test results along with the parameters used in terms of stop loss, targets, filters, etc. That would perhaps provide a useful measure of how help one might expect from the software and how much should be attributable to the skill that one might or might not be able to pick up from the mentoring process.

Regards,


rogerf View Post
Two interesting sides of the coin. Monpere takes a more narrow but understandable view of the trading education industry. The vast majority of trading "gurus" have no business teaching something they can't do. In this business, even free advice can be terribly expensive if it's wrong. If teaching traders to be their best involved all the work monpere describes, I'd probably take his advice and just trade. But nearly every business involves teamwork where the best people are hired to perform specific duties. In this business, no single person can do it all. But I honestly love what I do and I'll not apologize for that.

Trader Duck brings up another good point. Nobody will ever be able to be all things to all traders. One of the first things I tell students is to never abandon what is working for them already. Trader Duck's system is, in his words, better than mine . He's trading a system he fully understands, not mine which he doesn't. Logically speaking, Trader Duck's system is evidently already providing a nice income for him and keeps him in the top 10% of the world's traders consistently. I commend Trader Duck for not being tempted to change horses in the middle of a race he's already winning. That would make no sense.

In my entire working life, as with most people, everything involved providing a service of some kind that was needed by others whether is was as an employee or running a company. This aspect of "working" has always been very important to me and I always strived to be the best at whatever I did. I got tremendous satisfaction in knowing that effort made other's lives better in some way. With pure trading, I'm not providing a service to anyone. The money is great, but something huge is missing.

Over the years, I've found that you can never argue personal values with someone that believes all that matters in life is making money. Personally, I don't think any individual possesses the wisdom to tell others how they should earn a living or what their personal motivations should be. But I could be wrong.

It always struck me as extremely odd that Trading Education is the only arena where the educators are vilified, not on the basis of their talents and knowledge, but simply because of the field in which they teach.


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  #207 (permalink)
New York City, USA
 
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swaadee crap...mai sai pumchorot!

futures.io (formerly BMT) members get a good rate on the trading room? On the website i dont' see a price for the trading room only. Is it possible?


Hapster View Post
Of course Roger is going to allow you another occasion to join the trading room. You know that futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members are granted that. However, I'm curious. You were in the trading room for I think a week awhile back. It took me only about three days' worth of the free trial to figure out that Felton Trading was what my trading plan lacked. What exactly would a repeat visit do for you that you couldn't figure out in a week of being there? What exactly are you looking for that you're not finding by visiting the room?

Sorry, Roger, but I've been meaning to answer this gentleman for a few of his posts now.

Sawadee!!!

Hap


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  #208 (permalink)
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
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exiledgoblin View Post

1. What percentage of Felton students wind up making money as successful traders? Given that they have the DivergencePro software and Roger's training and mentoring, what are the odds of being successful? Obviously, I'm not asking that anyone predict the success of any particular student. I'm asking for some historical stats on success rates.


Regards,

IMHO, You cannot beat the odds even in a "successful" trading room.
check out this thread:
The only question is that, will this be ur key to be one of the 5% who make it???

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  #209 (permalink)
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exiledgoblin View Post
1. What percentage of Felton students wind up making money as successful traders? Given that they have the DivergencePro software and Roger's training and mentoring, what are the odds of being successful? Obviously, I'm not asking that anyone predict the success of any particular student. I'm asking for some historical stats on success rates.

I believe the numbers will be low, no matter how good Roger's room is. Trading is harder than most professions. Since it is the lure of easy and fast money that draws most people to trading, not many will be ready to put in the effort to make it in this tough game, so I don't think this will be a good indicator.

exiledgoblin View Post
2. In an effort to factor the various dimensions of Roger's impressive numbers it would be helpful if we could get a fix on the performance of the DivergencePro software itself. That is, it would be helpful if we had back test results along with the parameters used in terms of stop loss, targets, filters, etc. That would perhaps provide a useful measure of how help one might expect from the software and how much should be attributable to the skill that one might or might not be able to pick up from the mentoring process.

It's probably more Roger's skill than the indicator. It's his skill combined with the indicators that I'm most interested in. There are no magical indicators, no magical indicator settings and there never will be.

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  #210 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
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futurestrader1 View Post
swaadee crap...mai sai pumchorot!

futures.io (formerly BMT) members get a good rate on the trading room? On the website i dont' see a price for the trading room only. Is it possible?


For futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members, there is no charge and no time limit for accessing the Felton Trading room.

Roger

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  #211 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post

It's probably more Roger's skill than the indicator. It's his skill combined with the indicators that I'm most interested in. There are no magical indicators, no magical indicator settings and there never will be.

This might be the first time I saw someone mention this about Roger . I was in his room and am a member of FT for life although Im not in his room recently . I learned a lot from this guy and the indis werent what I came away with from my experience in the room . Roger is able to see things from a very broad scope . His insight in regards to whats making sense "right now" is what you should seek from this guy . Just learning to review ( how and why ) the markets before the day begins was alone worth the price of admission .

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  #212 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
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TheSeeker View Post
I believe the numbers will be low, no matter how good Roger's room is. Trading is harder than most professions. Since it is the lure of easy and fast money that draws most people to trading, not many will be ready to put in the effort to make it in this tough game, so I don't think this will be a good indicator.


It's probably more Roger's skill than the indicator. It's his skill combined with the indicators that I'm most interested in. There are no magical indicators, no magical indicator settings and there never will be.

It appears The Seeker actually gets it...success doesn't come in a can. Good software can help a lot, but it's only as good as the trader behind it pushing the buttons.

Let's assume you're designing a trading method. You like trading counter-trend so you look for divergences. In a single day, on a single chart, you get 60 divergence signals...all shapes and sizes. 40 are losers, 10 have some profit potential and 10 become runners. Taking all signals, you would lose. So you spend a few years studying divergence and you begin to get a good idea of what common characteristics make a great signal. But in order to identify greatness, you must look at form, volatility, momentum, volume and market condition. Then you must look at what is happening on 2 or 3 other larger timeframe charts of various types. Now you want to make sure you avoid OB or OS areas as well as areas of strong S & R. You need to be able to instantly gauge trend strength, channel width and slopes. Over the years of study, you create some excellent indicators on your own that perform very well in helping to identify high probability areas of market reversal...some things nobody has ever thought of before. Cool huh?

Well, now you try to trade it and you find that after a short time you brain is toast. Measuring this, watching that, calculating these and anticipating that...pretty soon you're mentally fatigued and making all sorts of mistakes. Even with terrific signals with tons of profit potential, I can easily show you how to lose on practically every one. No system is worth a dime if you don't know how to manage trades and control risk.

About this time you realize that you're missing many great opportunities to go with the trends. So you hit the drawing board and develop some of the best "with trend" entries you've ever seen...but you also get a lot of trash trades, too. A few years of extensive testing and some proprietary indicator development and you have some super filters to help idenitfy those goldmine trades. But, now there's double the things that you need to monitor to find the good stuff. You end up with about a dozen different signals and you have the means of identifying the best of the best. Your entries are 100% mechanical and the vast majority have good to high profit potential. Your ship has finally come in, right? Not so fast....

Today's markets are complicated and it takes a sophisticated system to stand any chance of lasting success. The old days of pulling daily profits with a pair of crossover moving averages are long gone. Sophistication can deliver tremendous power and accuracy but it can also require complexity. Most traders struggle to keep "all the plates spinning", so to speak. It's time to start coding.

Whether you do it yourself or hire the best talent you can find, your system must be coded before you wind up broke or in a padded cell. My system has taken nearly two years of coding...8 to 10 hours a day...6 to 7 days a week. But the result was worth every minute and every penny invested...but it's just a tool, not a ticket to vast riches. I'm still the operator. I make the final decision. And I must manage every trade myself because trade management is where computers always get stupid.

My car is a wonderful machine. With it, I can go anywhere there's a road. But no matter how many times I go to the store, my car still doesn't know the way. It could be programmed, but now you're talking complexity. If you want to get there without crashing into someone else, you're talking even more complexity. You want it to be able to take you places on icy roads, still more complexity. But why all the work and expense??? Let the car do what it does best, and you do what humans do best. Same for coded trading systems.

Let computers do their job...you can't begin to compete. And computers can't compete with you in Trade Management because they are always trying to apply the "cookie cutter" approach. They can't think.

The point is, if you're going to be a trader, then trade. Stop expecting programs and indicators to do everything for you. They are tools to be used in the hands of skilled traders who know how to manage trades like a pro. That takes training and not every trader gets it because trade management requires mental mastery (including patience, discipline and unshakable confidence). If you're looking for the Holy Grail, you'll find it between your ears.

Like all educators, I've had my share of students that failed. But it wasn't because the system failed and it wasn't because I failed to be there with professional mentorship anytime they asked for it. They failed because they lacked the ability to overcome the mental demons that all traders must master. This is the main motivation for hiring a very talented PhD in Psychology (who understands the mental side of trading) to help give traders the best chance at lasting success. They're not cheap, but I'll gladly foot the bill if it helps as much as I suspect it will.

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  #213 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
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nakachalet View Post
just curious, are you sure you got it all right in terms of your newly hired--Doctorate of Psychology? which is another great idea in addition to graciously allowing bmt members to attend your daily trading room gratis.

now coming back to your new hire, he did earn a Doctor of Psychology degree from some higher learning institutions, correct? and he himself never refers to his academic achievement as a Doctorate of Psychology, or does he? if he does, then you perhaps need to pay close attention.

most probably, he would say that he has earned a doctorate degree in psy (as distinguished from a ba or ma degree holder) and not a doctorate of psy degree, isn't that quite correct? just want to bring it to your attention, so when you present him in public or in your own trading room, you would be able to address and introduce him properly--only if you wish, roger.

to quote you--The psychological side of trading is so important that I have hired a Doctorate of Psychology who has many years of trading and mentoring experience to come on board starting in December....

an academically earned Ph.D. individual in psy area is not easy to come by at all, not even from among reputedly notorious cab drivers in new york city, who also are in possession of advance degrees but prefer the freedom to roam, drive, service and help those coming to visit the famous apple....

and on top of that, according to you, he also has many years of trading and mentoring experience as well.... now that is truly a big big plus on your column, roger. congratulations is in order indeed.

and perhaps, you would surely grant me another occasion to join your trading room, when he is on line live, to hear his wisdom in learning how to trade profitably for a living, won't you?

do you also know whether the initials appearing behind his name, contain a Ph.D. or an Ed.D. or other more modernized certifications?

as you also know that there are several specializations in the field of psy, such as; sports psy, experimental psy, cognitive psy, learning theory psy, abnormal psy et al; which is his field of specialization pls?

nevertheless, it is a very wise and far reaching decision to hire a full time qualified trading psychologist on your team. congrats again, roger. (just my humble one man opinion having nothing to do with nothing)

Yes, he is a Ph.D (Doctor of Psychology). He is also a Pastor so has a lot of experience in counceling. He spent a number of years working in a psychatric hospital. But the area of psychology he really enjoys is working with traders. He will be coming on board probably around mid December. I believe he will provide a vital service to our trading group so we're excited about this new addition. I'll keep everyone posted when he conducts public seminars.

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  #214 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
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nakachalet View Post
ahhh, sawadee krub, hapster:

....as for you, hap krub, i would like to share my secret wish with you in reference to another secret reason i like to temporarily revisit your guru's trading room again with his and bev's permission, of course--that this reputed psy person would be able to convincingly point out to rogerf that....

THERE TRULY EXIST A SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT BETWEEN TRADING SIM AND TRADING LIVE WITH YOUR OWN MONEY.... which most trading for a living already discern and accept as another immutable and indisputable fact....

anyway, we'll see.... if rogerf's new hire--psychologist would dare to approach this subject with rogerf, which rogerf himself has been eluding and evading ever since his first post or so, with so many variations of excuse....LOL ...

...it seems only persons who never place a live trade before, would be denied that element of euphorically levitated experiences when the first live trade is being triggered.... well, as i said repeatedly, you are your own absolute master and whatever direction you take is also alright with me, a third party observer. as stated before, whatever personal and professional reason you have for not wanting to go on live account--is cheerfully respected by my humble self also, K? hope to see you again soon with your new psy person in action.

....my humble apology to everyone who suffers thru my sort of wishing and nudging my trading friend, rogerf, toward becoming a fully mature guru in trading education.... unless and until rogerf turns live and trades live--IF NOTHING ELSE, TO PROVE TO HIMSELF, MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE; he will forever remain in the shadow... which i personally believe he honestly deserves much better exposure than that.... but then, at the very end.... it is all up to his own good self, isn't that so, rogerf?

As I have stated so many times before, I have tried moderating both with a live account and in simulation. For teaching purposes, simulation is much more effective and it's the way my students requested I teach. When I trade my live account, I am totally serious, totally focused and totally quiet. Students learn little... only what they see. I don't answer questions. I only take two or three trades in a three hour span. It's very boring and a lousy way to teach.

If anyone thinks that they are going to enjoy tremendous success simply because their moderator is trading his live account, then by all means go find one. You need a showboater, not a mentor. It is far better to have a mentor that can teach than to have a live account trader who cannot.

I have had two conversations with our staff psychologist on this topic and he actually pointed out a couple of more good reasons why my trading a live account would be counter-productive.

So, let's stop the criticism and simply go our separate ways. We'll never agree on this. I don't let people who don't have a clue what or how I teach dictate my methods and I'd lose respect for any instructor that did. If someone can teach...and teach well...it doesn't matter which mode is traded as long as the system and rules are followed.

Also, I don't need "exposure". I do not want to teach the world how to trade. I keep my group relatively small and manageable. That's why we never advertise. A large group would be a lot of work and I'd certainly be less effective.

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  #215 (permalink)
Toronto, ON
 
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Seems everyone missed the point of my questions. I'll try to be clearer.

I assume that there are no magic indicators. I assume that much of the success of the Felton Trading room is about Roger Felton (I clearly said as much). So I asked questions precisely to see if its possible to determine a) just how much is attributable to the driver of the car (to use Roger's analogy) and how much to the car (DivergencePro software) and more to the point b) how likely is it that a serious dedicated student can learn what Roger knows and is trying to pass on to his students. The point of all this is to assess the connection between trading education and trading success.

Having been a college professor for many years I can say that if most of my students failed to attain appropriate levels of knowledge after being in my courses and I insisted that the failure was always with the students because they are lazy and lacking dedication or motivation I would have been fired from my job.

So my question remains: how many of Roger's students graduate into successful traders? If the answer is "very few" the the inescapable conclusion seems to be that Roger's program is a lottery. The message seems to be as follows: The indicators might help. You might pick up enough skill from Roger but most likely you will not. If you don't its not the car (indicators) and its not the driving instructor (Roger). Its you." If its true that its highly improbable (by actual historical stats) that you will successfully learn to trade then in my view honesty should compel us to make that clear up front. If we know that the odds are that people are wasting money and time buying services from us then we should make sure that they know that they are playing a lottery.

Caveat emptor!!


rogerf View Post
It appears The Seeker actually gets it...success doesn't come in a can. Good software can help a lot, but it's only as good as the trader behind it pushing the buttons.

Let's assume you're designing a trading method. You like trading counter-trend so you look for divergences. In a single day, on a single chart, you get 60 divergence signals...all shapes and sizes. 40 are losers, 10 have some profit potential and 10 become runners. Taking all signals, you would lose. So you spend a few years studying divergence and you begin to get a good idea of what common characteristics make a great signal. But in order to identify greatness, you must look at form, volatility, momentum, volume and market condition. Then you must look at what is happening on 2 or 3 other larger timeframe charts of various types. Now you want to make sure you avoid OB or OS areas as well as areas of strong S & R. You need to be able to instantly gauge trend strength, channel width and slopes. Over the years of study, you create some excellent indicators on your own that perform very well in helping to identify high probability areas of market reversal...some things nobody has ever thought of before. Cool huh?

Well, now you try to trade it and you find that after a short time you brain is toast. Measuring this, watching that, calculating these and anticipating that...pretty soon you're mentally fatigued and making all sorts of mistakes. Even with terrific signals with tons of profit potential, I can easily show you how to lose on practically every one. No system is worth a dime if you don't know how to manage trades and control risk.

About this time you realize that you're missing many great opportunities to go with the trends. So you hit the drawing board and develop some of the best "with trend" entries you've ever seen...but you also get a lot of trash trades, too. A few years of extensive testing and some proprietary indicator development and you have some super filters to help idenitfy those goldmine trades. But, now there's double the things that you need to monitor to find the good stuff. You end up with about a dozen different signals and you have the means of identifying the best of the best. Your entries are 100% mechanical and the vast majority have good to high profit potential. Your ship has finally come in, right? Not so fast....

Today's markets are complicated and it takes a sophisticated system to stand any chance of lasting success. The old days of pulling daily profits with a pair of crossover moving averages are long gone. Sophistication can deliver tremendous power and accuracy but it can also require complexity. Most traders struggle to keep "all the plates spinning", so to speak. It's time to start coding.

Whether you do it yourself or hire the best talent you can find, your system must be coded before you wind up broke or in a padded cell. My system has taken nearly two years of coding...8 to 10 hours a day...6 to 7 days a week. But the result was worth every minute and every penny invested...but it's just a tool, not a ticket to vast riches. I'm still the operator. I make the final decision. And I must manage every trade myself because trade management is where computers always get stupid.

My car is a wonderful machine. With it, I can go anywhere there's a road. But no matter how many times I go to the store, my car still doesn't know the way. It could be programmed, but now you're talking complexity. If you want to get there without crashing into someone else, you're talking even more complexity. You want it to be able to take you places on icy roads, still more complexity. But why all the work and expense??? Let the car do what it does best, and you do what humans do best. Same for coded trading systems.

Let computers do their job...you can't begin to compete. And computers can't compete with you in Trade Management because they are always trying to apply the "cookie cutter" approach. They can't think.

The point is, if you're going to be a trader, then trade. Stop expecting programs and indicators to do everything for you. They are tools to be used in the hands of skilled traders who know how to manage trades like a pro. That takes training and not every trader gets it because trade management requires mental mastery (including patience, discipline and unshakable confidence). If you're looking for the Holy Grail, you'll find it between your ears.

Like all educators, I've had my share of students that failed. But it wasn't because the system failed and it wasn't because I failed to be there with professional mentorship anytime they asked for it. They failed because they lacked the ability to overcome the mental demons that all traders must master. This is the main motivation for hiring a very talented PhD in Psychology (who understands the mental side of trading) to help give traders the best chance at lasting success. They're not cheap, but I'll gladly foot the bill if it helps as much as I suspect it will.


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  #216 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
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Posts: 132 since Apr 2010


exiledgoblin View Post
Seems everyone missed the point of my questions. I'll try to be clearer.

I assume that there are no magic indicators. I assume that much of the success of the Felton Trading room is about Roger Felton (I clearly said as much). So I asked questions precisely to see if its possible to determine a) just how much is attributable to the driver of the car (to use Roger's analogy) and how much to the car (DivergencePro software) and more to the point b) how likely is it that a serious dedicated student can learn what Roger knows and is trying to pass on to his students. The point of all this is to assess the connection between trading education and trading success.

Having been a college professor for many years I can say that if most of my students failed to attain appropriate levels of knowledge after being in my courses and I insisted that the failure was always with the students because they are lazy and lacking dedication or motivation I would have been fired from my job.

So my question remains: how many of Roger's students graduate into successful traders? If the answer is "very few" the the inescapable conclusion seems to be that Roger's program is a lottery. The message seems to be as follows: The indicators might help. You might pick up enough skill from Roger but most likely you will not. If you don't its not the car (indicators) and its not the driving instructor (Roger). Its you." If its true that its highly improbable (by actual historical stats) that you will successfully learn to trade then in my view honesty should compel us to make that clear up front. If we know that the odds are that people are wasting money and time buying services from us then we should make sure that they know that they are playing a lottery.

Caveat emptor!!


You are correct, there are no "magic" indicators yet that seems to be what the majority of traders seek. I am always upfront and honest about me and what I do. I teach traders how to trade the system I personally use.

If you think the success of the trading room is about me, that clearly shows you've never been in the room or paid attention to the student chat.

As a former college professor, I'm intrigued that students who sign up for your class...who have no desire to learn...who refuse to study...who won't do the work or complete assignments....students who won't let you help them even though you make yourself available during most afternoon, evenings, weekends and holidays and (surprise!) fail your course, their failure is all your fault?? You would be fired if you stated otherwise? That's an incredible statement.

Ok, so we're fair, I need for you to give me the exact percentage of your students who took your course and went out into the work world and became a success. I would submit that you have no way of determining that nor does any other professor I know of. Do you see the ridiculousness of what you are asking?

I not only teach my trading method inside and out, I teach traders everything I know about trading. I consider that to be my solemn duty. They know exactly what I look for, why I look for it and what I do once I act on it. I verbalize my every thought during every moment I'm in a trade. I withhold nothing. There are no secrets.

But learning is work...and lots of it. Magic indicator seekers aren't going to buckle down and do the work until they realize that their fantasy quest is futile. I've had students who "failed" and then tried again...and again...and then finally got it. Not because the system was complicated to learn, but because they didn't have the discipline to trade successfully. When I would go over their trades with them, I didn't have to point out their mistakes to them, they'd point them out to me. They knew exactly what to do and their fear prevented them from doing it. They were allowing that fear to sabotage their success.

You seem to assume that traders who failed did so because they didn't receive the knowledge they needed to succeed. That perhaps I was teaching a methodology that only I could understand and follow. I suggest that you come in to the trading room and present that question to the students. I think their answers might surprise you.

I don't make students send in reports to me or copies of their trading statements. I tell them to be sure and let me know if they have any problem whatsoever. That's all I can do. I can tell you that, in my opinion, more students fail, at least initially, than succeed. Most traders are also unwilling to do the hard work necessary. I contend there's a connection. I can give the knowledge but I can't force anyone to learn it. If you're looking for an easy ride, this isn't it. We're more comprehensive with more depth than any other course I know of.

So I think the more appropriate question would be, "Of the serious traders who have the passion to work hard, attend the trainings, ask for help and not give up, how many succeed?" The answer would be easy...nearly all of them. Unlike college, trading is a course where you either get an "A" or an "F". There's nothing in between. I don't make the rules, the market does.

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  #217 (permalink)
Toronto, ON
 
Experience: Intermediate
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It seems we are condemned to talk past each other. I did not say that I took personal responsibility for all of the students who might have failed my courses and I certainly did not take responsibility for the failures of the shirkers. On the other hand, if most of my students failed then my dean would certainly not have accepted the argument that they were all shirkers.

The analogy between a college degree and career success and success after trader training is limited at best. There is a much tighter connection between training and desired outcome in the case of training traders. But even colleges track their alumni and do statistical correlations between earning a degree and career success. So there is nothing ridiculous about finding out how students make out after college. Its done all the time -- all over the world. In your case it would be trivial to survey your students without demanding brokerage statements. Methinks the mentor doth protest too much and too loudly.

A better analogy would be specific technical training that is skill based. I currently work in the IT industry. Not everyone who takes training from me on large enterprise software systems gets it. But 80% of the people in my courses do pass the course, where the conditions for a pass is the demonstrated capacity to install, configure, and administer the systems in question. Apparently trading is different. Most trading students pay good money for instruction and fail to succeed as traders because by your account they are shirkers. Another serious possibility is that the skills are just not transferable.

The problem with your proposed question is that its a "heads I win tails you lose" proposition. How will we define serious dedicated students? Well they are the one's who succeed, of course. So the answer to your version of a good question is that all of the real, dedicated, committed students succeed and the ones who fail, well they just didn't try.

I'm simply asking a basic statistical question: In a given population we have to assume shirkers, workers, dummies, geniuses and so on. We can gerrymander the results by proclaiming the successful ones as the workers and the rest are the shirkers. But this is a self-serving and self-authenticating argument.

Instead we just do the math: we offer a specific course of study. In this case training in a specific task and methodology. If 5% get it and the others do not some of the failures will be attributable to shirking, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to natural genius, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to the training. But in the end a very low success rate can only be attributable to a knowledge transmission failure. The method is teachable only to a select few and the odds of being among the few are very poor. It's simple mathematics.

No one is suggesting that you don't offer quality instruction. But the evidence seems clear: assuming that you have good software, that your mentoring is first rate, that only some of the failure can be written off as lack of effort and commitment then the conclusion seems obvious -- successful trading can be taught to a select few and investing your money in the unlikely prospect that you will be one of the few (if only you try hard enough) is equivalent to buying a lottery ticket.


rogerf View Post
You are correct, there are no "magic" indicators yet that seems to be what the majority of traders seek. I am always upfront and honest about me and what I do. I teach traders how to trade the system I personally use.

If you think the success of the trading room is about me, that clearly shows you've never been in the room or paid attention to the student chat.

As a former college professor, I'm intrigued that students who sign up for your class...who have no desire to learn...who refuse to study...who won't do the work or complete assignments....students who won't let you help them even though you make yourself available during most afternoon, evenings, weekends and holidays and (surprise!) fail your course, their failure is all your fault?? You would be fired if you stated otherwise? That's an incredible statement.

Ok, so we're fair, I need for you to give me the exact percentage of your students who took your course and went out into the work world and became a success. I would submit that you have no way of determining that nor does any other professor I know of. Do you see the ridiculousness of what you are asking?

I not only teach my trading method inside and out, I teach traders everything I know about trading. I consider that to be my solemn duty. They know exactly what I look for, why I look for it and what I do once I act on it. I verbalize my every thought during every moment I'm in a trade. I withhold nothing. There are no secrets.

But learning is work...and lots of it. Magic indicator seekers aren't going to buckle down and do the work until they realize that their fantasy quest is futile. I've had students who "failed" and then tried again...and again...and then finally got it. Not because the system was complicated to learn, but because they didn't have the discipline to trade successfully. When I would go over their trades with them, I didn't have to point out their mistakes to them, they'd point them out to me. They knew exactly what to do and their fear prevented them from doing it. They were allowing that fear to sabotage their success.

You seem to assume that traders who failed did so because they didn't receive the knowledge they needed to succeed. That perhaps I was teaching a methodology that only I could understand and follow. I suggest that you come in to the trading room and present that question to the students. I think their answers might surprise you.

I don't make students send in reports to me or copies of their trading statements. I tell them to be sure and let me know if they have any problem whatsoever. That's all I can do. I can tell you that, in my opinion, more students fail, at least initially, than succeed. Most traders are also unwilling to do the hard work necessary. I contend there's a connection. I can give the knowledge but I can't force anyone to learn it. If you're looking for an easy ride, this isn't it. We're more comprehensive with more depth than any other course I know of.

So I think the more appropriate question would be, "Of the serious traders who have the passion to work hard, attend the trainings, ask for help and not give up, how many succeed?" The answer would be easy...nearly all of them. Unlike college, trading is a course where you either get an "A" or an "F". There's nothing in between. I don't make the rules, the market does.


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  #218 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
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exiledgoblin View Post
I have no wish to vilify anyone. And the argument that if someone were any good at trading they would not be teaching is a kind of Catch 22. Sort of like: "If you know you don't teach. If you teach you don't know." This effectively rules out a priori that there could be any such thing as a valuable trading education.

I am simply trying to do some due diligence before sinking money into stuff I cannot test before purchasing and cannot get a refund on afterwards. I'm finished with that trap!!!

So apart from the impressive SIM numbers daily racked up by Roger and Clint in the Felton Trading room here are some additional numbers I'd be very interested in:

1. What percentage of Felton students wind up making money as successful traders? Given that they have the DivergencePro software and Roger's training and mentoring, what are the odds of being successful? Obviously, I'm not asking that anyone predict the success of any particular student. I'm asking for some historical stats on success rates.

2. In an effort to factor the various dimensions of Roger's impressive numbers it would be helpful if we could get a fix on the performance of the DivergencePro software itself. That is, it would be helpful if we had back test results along with the parameters used in terms of stop loss, targets, filters, etc. That would perhaps provide a useful measure of how help one might expect from the software and how much should be attributable to the skill that one might or might not be able to pick up from the mentoring process.

Regards,

Let's put it this way: In the first 30 days of training, a minimum of 98% of students understand the method completely. The majority could probably teach the course. They watch me trade every day following the same rules they have been taught. They get the knowledge and it is taught very well. I get lots of kudos and zero complaints.

So, why do traders fail? Volumes have been written on that topic. Big Mike has webinars on the psychology of trading. It seems you are oblivious to the dramatic negative influence that emotions play in trading. I suggest that you try reading some of the hundreds of books written on trading psychology. Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas might be a good start.

The nasty effects of human emotions has always been a subject I discussed extensively...but I'm not a trained psychologist. That's why I hired one and I fully expect that to be a big factor in the success rate of my students.

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  #219 (permalink)
San Diego, California
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Exiledgoblin -- or should I say Professor Exiledgoblin:

It seems like you're wanting to hear that people are IMMEDIATELY seeing positive results from Felton students after signing up with Felton Trading or you are considering that it's just simply a lottery ticket. Nothing could be further from the truth IMO. I've been with FT now for about three months. Do I have any regrets about signing up? Absolutely not. Have I become a trading millionaire yet? Certainly not. Have I become a better trader showing better results than when I walked in the door? You bet I have!!

There's a lot of training that's involved and a rather -- well, I won't say too "steep" of a learning curve, but there's definitely a learning curve, as Jillzy has mentioned previously here. There is a LOT of data to absorb and lots of things to take into account in the software that's provided. There's some tweaking involved. There's a good amount of SIM trading involved to test out the new "tools" that Divergence Pro and the entire system offers. Do I stumble occasionally in my trading efforts? You bet I do. But the camaraderie of the trading room, the training involved, being able to watch a trader with umpteen more hours behind the screen than I do is worth the price of admission in my opinion. I guess I'm not at my 10,000 hours yet.

I can't seem to understand why you keep insisting this is a lottery ticket that's purchased by the students without even having been in the room at all. Is that correct? Or have you? Any particular reason you just haven't signed up as a guest to come in instead of sparring here with Roger?

I'm just a student, but I'm personally inviting you to come by and check it out. I see you're an Elite member so you can come in as long as you like. From my experience and from what I can tell -- as I don't know any of the fellow students personally -- but I'd venture to guess that a hefty percentage of the students have been trading for a while but haven't seen the results they thought they were going to have seen by now so they've landed at Felton. I'll loosely call them "frustrated traders." Perhaps YOU, too, are a "frustrated trader."

Like you, I also have a professional career that I practice after trading in the morning. I'm grateful and lucky that I live on the west coast so it allows me that opportunity. I'm also grateful that I have AT LEAST 10,000 hours under my belt at that craft and perform it like a master, as Roger does with trading. No, I haven't quit my day job yet, but that's definitely my goal -- and it's a much more realistic goal thinking about it in the last three months.

Hope to "see" you in the room, Doc. (You are a Doc; right?)

Hap

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  #220 (permalink)
Fairbanks, Alaska
 
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rogerf View Post
Yes, Gregory, the offer is valid and has no set expiration date. My students are in good shape for now so I should have sufficient free time to work with anyone requesting my help from futures.io (formerly BMT). I can do this as long as time allows.

I have some things to share with you that I think you'll find useful. Understand that my help is not a guarantee of success. But, as a fellow futures.io (formerly BMT) member, I will assist you as much as humanly possible.

I have previously responded to your initial request but did not hear back from you. I look forward to helping you as much as possible. Please email me directly at Roger@FeltonTrading.com and we'll set up a time to get together.

Thanks Gregory!

Roger

I think that only Traders who are beginners or frustrated ones will ever say, "If someone can trade successfully then why would they waste their time teaching thier method? Shouldn't they keep it a secret and just trade?" Here is an example of a successful trader who gets pleasure out of helping others. Computers aren't good companions. Eager students are. Sharing success satisfies one of those basic human needs. After all, we are social animals. Many methods work, but most of us can't figure a new one out from scratch without much time and money wasted. It is better, faster and less frustrating to have a coach. I like my own trading method, but if I was shopping around for a mentor, this guy would be on my short list.

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  #221 (permalink)
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sp139214 View Post
Has anyone ever hear of Felton Trading?

I was out surfing on several locations and was wondering if anyone had tried this?

www.feltontrading.com

For those who have questions about this vendor or any others, here are sites where many of them give presentations for free. Roger is giving one today and I will be there. I'm sure I will learn at leat one thing that I don't already know. That's why I go to a couple of these every week.

Roger's presentation today: https://tradingontarget.omnovia.com/registration/pid=49011322067552

another site:
Online Trader Central Calendar: Welcome to OnlineTraderCentral.com

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  #222 (permalink)
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I'm not interested in sparring with Roger. If you read my various posts in this thread you will see that I am entirely even-handed. I believe in letting people have their say and listening respectfully without pre-judging the issue.

Asking questions in an effort to understand what someone is selling is not a game. Nor is pointing out flaws in someone's interpretations or arguments.. It is an effort to get some approximate truth.

I'm not sure what you might have read in my posts that suggest that I was expecting IMMEDIATE positive results. I expect no such thing. I do expect that training over an appropriate period of time should yield positive skill acquisition. If not then some inquiry seems in order. I was suggesting that perhaps the explanation is that this is a skill that is hard or perhaps impossible to "teach".

So here's what I have heard from this thread in response my questions so far:

1. Most people don't make the grade as traders but most of them do master the setups, software, rules.
2. Some students (probably a relatively small #) become successful traders.
3. Some of failures are lazy.
3. Some of them fail for mysterious reasons that a psychologist might be able to explain.

As soon as I have the scheduling worked out I'll be happy to drop by the Felton trade room and see what I can learn. Thanks for the invitation.

Regards,

PS. Yes, Hap. I am a "doc" but not a frustrated trader. Frustrated only by how hard it is to get a straight answer from trading vendors of various stripes.


Hapster View Post
Exiledgoblin -- or should I say Professor Exiledgoblin:

It seems like you're wanting to hear that people are IMMEDIATELY seeing positive results from Felton students after signing up with Felton Trading or you are considering that it's just simply a lottery ticket. Nothing could be further from the truth IMO. I've been with FT now for about three months. Do I have any regrets about signing up? Absolutely not. Have I become a trading millionaire yet? Certainly not. Have I become a better trader showing better results than when I walked in the door? You bet I have!!

There's a lot of training that's involved and a rather -- well, I won't say too "steep" of a learning curve, but there's definitely a learning curve, as Jillzy has mentioned previously here. There is a LOT of data to absorb and lots of things to take into account in the software that's provided. There's some tweaking involved. There's a good amount of SIM trading involved to test out the new "tools" that Divergence Pro and the entire system offers. Do I stumble occasionally in my trading efforts? You bet I do. But the camaraderie of the trading room, the training involved, being able to watch a trader with umpteen more hours behind the screen than I do is worth the price of admission in my opinion. I guess I'm not at my 10,000 hours yet.

I can't seem to understand why you keep insisting this is a lottery ticket that's purchased by the students without even having been in the room at all. Is that correct? Or have you? Any particular reason you just haven't signed up as a guest to come in instead of sparring here with Roger?

I'm just a student, but I'm personally inviting you to come by and check it out. I see you're an Elite member so you can come in as long as you like. From my experience and from what I can tell -- as I don't know any of the fellow students personally -- but I'd venture to guess that a hefty percentage of the students have been trading for a while but haven't seen the results they thought they were going to have seen by now so they've landed at Felton. I'll loosely call them "frustrated traders." Perhaps YOU, too, are a "frustrated trader."

Like you, I also have a professional career that I practice after trading in the morning. I'm grateful and lucky that I live on the west coast so it allows me that opportunity. I'm also grateful that I have AT LEAST 10,000 hours under my belt at that craft and perform it like a master, as Roger does with trading. No, I haven't quit my day job yet, but that's definitely my goal -- and it's a much more realistic goal thinking about it in the last three months.

Hope to "see" you in the room, Doc. (You are a Doc; right?)

Hap


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  #223 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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Hapster View Post
Exiledgoblin -- or should I say Professor Exiledgoblin:

It seems like you're wanting to hear that people are IMMEDIATELY seeing positive results from Felton students after signing up with Felton Trading or you are considering that it's just simply a lottery ticket. Nothing could be further from the truth IMO. I've been with FT now for about three months. Do I have any regrets about signing up? Absolutely not. Have I become a trading millionaire yet? Certainly not. Have I become a better trader showing better results than when I walked in the door? You bet I have!!

There's a lot of training that's involved and a rather -- well, I won't say too "steep" of a learning curve, but there's definitely a learning curve, as Jillzy has mentioned previously here. There is a LOT of data to absorb and lots of things to take into account in the software that's provided. There's some tweaking involved. There's a good amount of SIM trading involved to test out the new "tools" that Divergence Pro and the entire system offers. Do I stumble occasionally in my trading efforts? You bet I do. But the camaraderie of the trading room, the training involved, being able to watch a trader with umpteen more hours behind the screen than I do is worth the price of admission in my opinion. I guess I'm not at my 10,000 hours yet.

I can't seem to understand why you keep insisting this is a lottery ticket that's purchased by the students without even having been in the room at all. Is that correct? Or have you? Any particular reason you just haven't signed up as a guest to come in instead of sparring here with Roger?

I'm just a student, but I'm personally inviting you to come by and check it out. I see you're an Elite member so you can come in as long as you like. From my experience and from what I can tell -- as I don't know any of the fellow students personally -- but I'd venture to guess that a hefty percentage of the students have been trading for a while but haven't seen the results they thought they were going to have seen by now so they've landed at Felton. I'll loosely call them "frustrated traders." Perhaps YOU, too, are a "frustrated trader."

Like you, I also have a professional career that I practice after trading in the morning. I'm grateful and lucky that I live on the west coast so it allows me that opportunity. I'm also grateful that I have AT LEAST 10,000 hours under my belt at that craft and perform it like a master, as Roger does with trading. No, I haven't quit my day job yet, but that's definitely my goal -- and it's a much more realistic goal thinking about it in the last three months.

Hope to "see" you in the room, Doc. (You are a Doc; right?)

Hap

hi hap

just curious, why are you going on and on making spurious assumptions concerning others; calling your fellow students--frustrated traders? at best, you are not a trader yet, you are learning how to trade with consistency from rogerf; questioning exiledglobin as to why he has not signed up to visit rogerf trading room? not everyone has ample time on hand to participate or observe trading classrooms; to top it off, attributing 'frustrated trader' to exiledglobin.... as a student, you really have no biz to behave the way you did, don't you think? you have been with rogerf for some 3 months, his super human relations quality among his superlative trading skills ought to have already been beneficial to you some.

you are in ft to learn how to trade, isn't that correct? and hopefully learn to trade profitably? and more importantly yet, learn to trade with consistent profitability too? isn't that your wish, hope and dream?

our good fellow rogerf is a very good and a reasonable man and a potentially great trader who refuses to rise to the top because of his own personal reasons which everyone ought to respect, including myself.

and you as one of his students, really ought to afford your very capable teacher some courtesy--not to speak for him or on his behalf, when he is still very eloquent and mentally competent to respond and trade, alright? rogerf will, i presume, respond whenever he himself deems fit and appropriate to do so. i do not mean nor wish to chastise you--that surely is not my intention at all either, K? so plse do not get all worked up, plse?

sa-wad-dee bhe-mai krub, khun hap.
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(merry christmas and happy new year to you, all rolled into one, for the thais)

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  #224 (permalink)
Toronto, ON
 
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So we're making some kind of progress after all...2 steps forward and 1 step back. Or maybe 2 steps back.

If I were oblivious to the emotional side of trading I would hardly be insisting on the huge difference between SIM trading and live trading. I know the emotional issues very well. I SIM traded for over a year with great success. When I moved into the live market my performance suffered enormously. This is for many, many traders the heart of the matter.

If I understand Roger's argument he seems to be saying that despite great success in mastering technical setups and learning the FT method, most students fail as traders for a multitude of reasons -- but especially for emotional reasons associated with trading risk. He can teach them the setups and he's hoping that their trading fears can be addressed by his new psychologist. So now FT has a three pronged approach:
1. Computer assisted entry signals.
2. Roger's mentoring.
3. A newly minted psychology coach.

I wish him and his students the best of luck!


rogerf View Post
Let's put it this way: In the first 30 days of training, a minimum of 98% of students understand the method completely. The majority could probably teach the course. They watch me trade every day following the same rules they have been taught. They get the knowledge and it is taught very well. I get lots of kudos and zero complaints.

So, why do traders fail? Volumes have been written on that topic. Big Mike has webinars on the psychology of trading. It seems you are oblivious to the dramatic negative influence that emotions play in trading. I suggest that you try reading some of the hundreds of books written on trading psychology. Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas might be a good start.

The nasty effects of human emotions has always been a subject I discussed extensively...but I'm not a trained psychologist. That's why I hired one and I fully expect that to be a big factor in the success rate of my students.


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  #225 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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rogerf View Post
As I have stated so many times before, I have tried moderating both with a live account and in simulation. For teaching purposes, simulation is much more effective and it's the way my students requested I teach. When I trade my live account, I am totally serious, totally focused and totally quiet. Students learn little... only what they see. I don't answer questions. I only take two or three trades in a three hour span. It's very boring and a lousy way to teach.

If anyone thinks that they are going to enjoy tremendous success simply because their moderator is trading his live account, then by all means go find one. You need a showboater, not a mentor. It is far better to have a mentor that can teach than to have a live account trader who cannot.

I have had two conversations with our staff psychologist on this topic and he actually pointed out a couple of more good reasons why my trading a live account would be counter-productive.

So, let's stop the criticism and simply go our separate ways. We'll never agree on this. I don't let people who don't have a clue what or how I teach dictate my methods and I'd lose respect for any instructor that did. If someone can teach...and teach well...it doesn't matter which mode is traded as long as the system and rules are followed.

Also, I don't need "exposure". I do not want to teach the world how to trade. I keep my group relatively small and manageable. That's why we never advertise. A large group would be a lot of work and I'd certainly be less effective.

rogerf, you have spoken and unequivocally i for one will not engage you any longer on the topic of your preference of sim trading over live trading as an instructional vehicle in your very own trading room. i'll accept your decision that in your professional opinion and experiences you conclude that it is just as effective to trade sim as to trade live account for instructional purpose. and as far as i am concerned this topic is done with and i shall not bring it up with you any more henceforth.

in my opinion, those who trade live, whether they are teaching or trading for a living will continue to regard sim trading as play ground of amateurs and wannabes, sorry; even though as you stated that your own in-house psy is also in agreement with you which i am very happy for you both. wishing you the very best in helping other wannabe traders to become consistently profitable. wishing you and yours a very merry christmas and happy new year as well.

pls do let us know when your in-house psy person would make his debut, OK?

incidentally, if i were you, i would also tell others the name of your psy person, at least to honor him that much in public. but then again you are your own absolute master, do whatever pleases you, sir.

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  #226 (permalink)
Victoria, TX
 
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exiledgoblin View Post
So we're making some kind of progress after all...2 steps forward and 1 step back. Or maybe 2 steps back.

If I were oblivious to the emotional side of trading I would hardly be insisting on the huge difference between SIM trading and live trading. I know the emotional issues very well. I SIM traded for over a year with great success. When I moved into the live market my performance suffered enormously. This is for many, many traders the heart of the matter.

If I understand Roger's argument he seems to be saying that despite great success in mastering technical setups and learning the FT method, most students fail as traders for a multitude of reasons -- but especially for emotional reasons associated with trading risk. He can teach them the setups and he's hoping that their trading fears can be addressed by his new psychologist. So now FT has a three pronged approach:
1. Computer assisted entry signals.
2. Roger's mentoring.
3. A newly minted psychology coach.

I wish him and his students the best of luck!

For the record, he's not a "newly minted" psychology coach. He comes to FT with considerable experience helping traders master their emotions.

Please help me to understand...in one post you say, "Some of them fail for mysterious reasons that a psychologist might be able to explain." Then, in a later post you state, " I know the emotional issues very well. I SIM traded for over a year with great success. When I moved into the live market my performance suffered enormously."

If you understand emotional issues so well, how is it that you find them "mysterious" and need a psychologist to explain them to you? Sorry, I'm just confused by these two statements.

Also, I'm curious to know if, when you went from simulated to live account trading, did your system or method magically just stop working? Were you duped by incompetent mentors? Did they teach you a system that could somehow tell you were trading your live account and turned on you like Cujo?

Or could it be that the training was sound and comprehensive and in fact it was you and your fears that sabotaged your success and had nothing to do with the quality of your training and mentorship?

Think carefully before you answer. We might be on the verge of taking 2 steps forward again.

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  #227 (permalink)
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i wish roger had a cool avitar like the silver surfer or maybe a transformer or something lol...sharky

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  #228 (permalink)
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i was scared to post that but i overcame my fear and posted it anyways...someone thank me,hehe sharky

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  #229 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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rogerf View Post
For the record, he's not a "newly minted" psychology coach. He comes to FT with considerable experience helping traders master their emotions.

Please help me to understand...in one post you say, "Some of them fail for mysterious reasons that a psychologist might be able to explain." Then, in a later post you state, " I know the emotional issues very well. I SIM traded for over a year with great success. When I moved into the live market my performance suffered enormously."

If you understand emotional issues so well, how is it that you find them "mysterious" and need a psychologist to explain them to you? Sorry, I'm just confused by these two statements.

Also, I'm curious to know if, when you went from simulated to live account trading, did your system or method magically just stop working? Were you duped by incompetent mentors? Did they teach you a system that could somehow tell you were trading your live account and turned on you like Cujo?

Or could it be that the training was sound and comprehensive and in fact it was you and your fears that sabotaged your success and had nothing to do with the quality of your training and mentorship?

Think carefully before you answer. We might be on the verge of taking 2 steps forward again.

----------------------

rogerf View Post
on or about tuesday, november 29, 2011; rogerf revealed in a bmt thread that:

....As I have stated so many times before, I have tried moderating both with a live account and in simulation. For teaching purposes, simulation is much more effective and it's the way my students requested I teach. When I trade my live account, I am totally serious, totally focused and totally quiet....
----------------
I have had two conversations with our staff psychologist on this topic and he actually pointed out a couple of more good reasons why my trading a live account would be counter-productive.
----------------

So, let's stop the criticism and simply go our separate ways. We'll never agree on this....

----------------------
rogerf,

there is never a criticism intended any where, my friend. there are only questions from traders who are unclear about your trading philosophy, issues and trading concerns and practices. you really should not be that personally defensive about nothing, really.

specifically, prior to re-reading your opinion and experiences concerning trading sim vs live declared by your good self on november 29, 201, i was sort of, in your behalf, on fire trying to figure out different ways to incite you to take the next necessary step toward becoming a truly professional trader which i think you deserve.... however, after reading your post which was quoted above, i'd better leave you alone to continue to happily trade your sim....

nevertheless, it seems to me that it is empirically regarded that only those who trade live can be accorded the title--professional traders, while the rest of the traders who for various reasons, prefer to trade on sim which, in and of itself, there is nothing wrong or undesirable about choosing sim trading; but the latter ought to realize that maybe they are at this point in time not quite ready for the acclaimation of the so-called professional traders status yet.

on the other hand, i do not think for a minute that big mike or any member herein would give it a hoot if someone would like to call himself/herself a professional trader or a master trader, irrespective of experiences or qualifications. i just believe that most members are just very engrossed in seeking different ways to becoming profitable and subsequently attaining the next step of utopia--on becoming consistently profitable traders, as quickly as they possibly can....

whatever name a trader desires to call himself/herself is really something personal and it won't bother too many people here either....; is my 2 wooden indian nickles worth.
------------------
and about your statement on the following, may i respond to it sometimes latter so as not to bore my fellow traders too much and too long here;

rogerf;173388
For the record, he's not a "newly minted" psychology coach. He comes to FT with considerable experience helping traders master their emotions
.


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  #230 (permalink)
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You've got WAYYYY too much time on your hands, dude.

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  #232 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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exiledgoblin View Post
It seems we are condemned to talk past each other. I did not say that I took personal responsibility for all of the students who might have failed my courses and I certainly did not take responsibility for the failures of the shirkers. On the other hand, if most of my students failed then my dean would certainly not have accepted the argument that they were all shirkers.

The analogy between a college degree and career success and success after trader training is limited at best. There is a much tighter connection between training and desired outcome in the case of training traders. But even colleges track their alumni and do statistical correlations between earning a degree and career success. So there is nothing ridiculous about finding out how students make out after college. Its done all the time -- all over the world. In your case it would be trivial to survey your students without demanding brokerage statements. Methinks the mentor doth protest too much and too loudly.

A better analogy would be specific technical training that is skill based. I currently work in the IT industry. Not everyone who takes training from me on large enterprise software systems gets it. But 80% of the people in my courses do pass the course, where the conditions for a pass is the demonstrated capacity to install, configure, and administer the systems in question. Apparently trading is different. Most trading students pay good money for instruction and fail to succeed as traders because by your account they are shirkers. Another serious possibility is that the skills are just not transferable.

The problem with your proposed question is that its a "heads I win tails you lose" proposition. How will we define serious dedicated students? Well they are the one's who succeed, of course. So the answer to your version of a good question is that all of the real, dedicated, committed students succeed and the ones who fail, well they just didn't try.

I'm simply asking a basic statistical question: In a given population we have to assume shirkers, workers, dummies, geniuses and so on. We can gerrymander the results by proclaiming the successful ones as the workers and the rest are the shirkers. But this is a self-serving and self-authenticating argument.

Instead we just do the math: we offer a specific course of study. In this case training in a specific task and methodology. If 5% get it and the others do not some of the failures will be attributable to shirking, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to natural genius, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to the training. But in the end a very low success rate can only be attributable to a knowledge transmission failure. The method is teachable only to a select few and the odds of being among the few are very poor. It's simple mathematics.

No one is suggesting that you don't offer quality instruction. But the evidence seems clear: assuming that you have good software, that your mentoring is first rate, that only some of the failure can be written off as lack of effort and commitment then the conclusion seems obvious -- successful trading can be taught to a select few and investing your money in the unlikely prospect that you will be one of the few (if only you try hard enough) is equivalent to buying a lottery ticket.

may i applaud you for an excellent summary of the effectiveness of any teaching and/or training organization that involves dispensing knowledge, skill et al to others, free or fee....

there are just too many traders training schools that naturally assume that when a learner fails to proceed to trade with profitability that the learner does not apply oneself, or that the learner just does not get it; among numerous other often cited reasons.

few operators of those traders training schools would admit that perhaps the success or failure of those learners who summarily must be interested to learn how to trade to profitability, otherwise why would they pay a handsome sums of several thousands u.s. dollars to enroll....; that whether they would become successful or not, also have a lot to do with the processes and methodologies of imparting and transferring imperative knowledge from top down....

personally, i assume that it is important for all those desiring to learn how to trade with profitability to remember that their own fierce desire to succeed as well as the teaching schools' teaching methodologies are equally important, in order for both entities to succeed toward trading with profitability.

well stated sir. much appreciated indeed.

....I'm simply asking a basic statistical question: In a given population we have to assume shirkers, workers, dummies, geniuses and so on. We can gerrymander the results by proclaiming the successful ones as the workers and the rest are the shirkers. But this is a self-serving and self-authenticating argument.

Instead we just do the math: we offer a specific course of study. In this case training in a specific task and methodology. If 5% get it and the others do not some of the failures will be attributable to shirking, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to natural genius, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to the training. But in the end a very low success rate can only be attributable to a knowledge transmission failure. The method is teachable only to a select few and the odds of being among the few are very poor. It's simple mathematics.
....

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  #233 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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Hapster View Post
You've got WAYYYY too much time on your hands, dude.

คุณจะได้มีเวลา WAYYYY มากเกินไปในมือของคุณครับ

hi hap

wrong again.... (เดาผิดอีกแล้ว เพื่อนเอ๊ย!).... LOL

but i am going to abide by mike's suggestion which will be good for everyone.

besides, mike is the host and everyone ought to comply, K?

cheers....

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  #234 (permalink)
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Mike

Thanks Mike. My phones are always open to any trader wishing to discuss any aspect of trading. This is a great forum and should be limited to the exchange of useful information. You have my committment to help keep it that way.

Roger

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  #235 (permalink)
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So...it's been a few months since I joined (see my original posting back in Nov and update in Dec probably).
I had at least a month's derailment with some personal things going on...that having been said, I've been turning the corner being consistent in making money in sim! I think one of the crucial aspects has been consistency in the training and mentoring...every day, I have been in the room, listening to Roger and Clint and their teachings. Often it's a repeat topic and that's perfect...helps it sink in and reinforce. Their training goes beyond just the indicators...it taps into psychology which is huge for any trader, and also the more mundane aspects like journaling, discipline, daily routine. I'm very grateful to have found them...don't know that I'd have gotten this far by now without them.

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  #236 (permalink)
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I have been in Roger's room for a few days and liked it. It seems he is a good trader and the methods he uses make sense from what I could tell.

I didn't continue because the emphasis in his rooms seems to be on scalping, something I was not aware of before I registered for the free trial. I don't like to scalp for 5 ticks, just too stressful.


Of course, divergences appear on any time frame so maybe it would have made sense for me to stay.

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  #237 (permalink)
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Hi Seeker,
I used to feel the same way. The first very pricey futures class I took (from an options education company!) taught you to manually figure out support and resistance, buy off support, sell off resistance, and let your winners run. That's great. Until it turns on you and you give it all back. Or you think it will turn and you cut your profit short. The market is so unpredictable these days that I'm a total convert to scalping. If I can find a 5 or 10 tick winner with a high degree of predictability (and I can...75 to 90%)...then why not? I will often put on 2, take off one at a predetermined 5 or 10 tick profit, depending on the market, and let the 2nd run for a while with a b/e stop. If you catch a bit of a trend, you can take many more ticks than 5 or 10. And Felton's indicators are really set up for finding these scalps with a high degree of predictability. I, personally, have even had a few 100% days. Some other rooms I have tried out are going for 5 or 10 ticks with a horrible degree of predictability and huge stops....that's a recipe for disaster.

One thing I should point out, however...is that you can use the FT system for trending as well....you don't HAVE to only scalp. I personally, find that I'd rather take a fairly sure scalp and if I want to trend, let another one run on the house's money.

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  #238 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post
I have been in Roger's room for a few days and liked it. It seems he is a good trader and the methods he uses make sense from what I could tell.

I didn't continue because the emphasis in his rooms seems to be on scalping, something I was not aware of before I registered for the free trial. I don't like to scalp for 5 ticks, just too stressful.


Of course, divergences appear on any time frame so maybe it would have made sense for me to stay.

You're certainly welcome to come back in as often as you like. The FT System works for trend trading, swing and position trading as well as scalping so it's probably my fault you missed that. Although I do catch trends when they are really high potential moves, I normally just scalp for 5 to 20 ticks.

Never allow yourself to "be sold" on any trading system. Quick decisions are almost always a mistake. If a system is right for you, you will know. But you can learn a lot about trading by simply watching and asking lots of questions...and it doesn't cost a dime.

Roger

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  #239 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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;191655
I have been in Roger's room for a few days and liked it. It seems he is a good trader and the methods he uses make sense from what I could tell.

I didn't continue because the emphasis in his rooms seems to be on scalping, something I was not aware of before I registered for the free trial. I don't like to scalp for 5 ticks, just too stressful.


Of course, divergences appear on any time frame so maybe it would have made sense for me to stay.

@ TheSeeker

a serious trader would consider consistent profitable trades of 4+ tics each click of the order, quite acceptable, in his/her repertoire; especially for someone who has not been in the trading pool with the sharks for a few years.

alright, theseeker, if the name were changed to other than SCALP, would that make any different in your trading perception and acceptance of such trading system, pls?

if i were learning how to trade, i would welcome a consist 5+ tics profit for each click of the mouse.

furthermore, for such a generous offer for bmt trader to return as often as a trader likes--to watch and learn from an established trading room, i would immediately jump on such generosity.

besides, many a time, starting out as a scalp trade, the scalp position would loom into longer terms position as well.

in my opinion, if trading for 5 tics is stressful, then trading for a full point would it or won't it be even more stressful, pls?

i am by no means trying to challenge you nor to discourage you.... but just like you to rethink the concept of profitability, K?

from my personal experience, it is much much more stressful to trade for a full point or a few points. generally, as a trader tries to trade for greater profitability each session, the stake and the risk are correspondingly greater as well.

even if a trader mastered all the trading setups, there is to be mastered from this trading forum or others; there is still no guarantee that he/she would survive with the sharks in real time.

theseeker, there are plenty of greater traders and trading advices around here which can ultimately help you and others to trade more proficiently and profitably. hope you would have the patient to seek that golden needle in the hay stack. wishing you the best in trading. you can learn lots from roger's trading room plus many many good logical trading advices as well. <no, i am not in biz with roger, nor have any financial interest in his biz, ok. just like to give him credit where it is due>

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  #240 (permalink)
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My problem with scalping for 5 ticks is that the reward to risk will be usually lower than 1. You'll need a high win rate to overcome the poorer R:R.

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  #241 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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TheSeeker View Post
My problem with scalping for 5 ticks is that the reward to risk will be usually lower than 1. You'll need a high win rate to overcome the poorer R:R.

@ TheSeeker--to be successful and profitable, traders need to think and to work out problems for themselves as an individuals, agree?

are you quite certain that what you stated is always the fact and nothing but the fact, pls?

My problem with scalping for 5 ticks is that the reward to risk will be usually lower than 1.

just how did you arrive at that conclusion, pls?

remember, as traders we absolutely need to think for ourselves, correct?

you know, there are several on board here who would get out of a trade that lingers too long or heads to the opposite direction than what their setups predict, at 2 or 3 tics loss....? and be perfectly content with that losing trade too.

now, there are also many who setup their would be expected losing trades with similar risk control as follows:

stop loss 5; profit target 5, 50; profit trigger 6 -->5, breakeven +5....

this setup would invalidate what many have had learned in terms of risk/reward ratio.

particularly when traders are able to bail out at 2 or 3 tics loss, as their setups and strategies are being proven wrong by the volatile market; then, the r/r ratio would surely be more like 1 to 2 or better, won't you agree?

@ TheSeeker, am not picking on you, ok? sincerely hope you won't feel that way, alright? your posts would help many of those learning to trade profitably and consistently to better think for themselves and do their own math for their own trading requirements and setups. thx much for your posts, theseeker, affording me an opportunity to respond--which might differ significantly from many other prolific traders here.... as well....

my apology for being long winded and babbling on and on. have a safe and wonderful weekend everyone.

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  #242 (permalink)
Germany
 
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Nakachalet, I respect everyone's opinions. There are many different ways to trade.

My goal in trading was to find a method that enables me to have both a high win rate and a high reward to risk ratio. I believe I have acomplished this but being curious, I always like to learn new tricks.

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  #243 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post
Nakachalet, I respect everyone's opinions. There are many different ways to trade.

My goal in trading was to find a method that enables me to have both a high win rate and a high reward to risk ratio. I believe I have acomplished this but being curious, I always like to learn new tricks.

That's a very encouraging post indeed and congratulations are in order. Most traders who were enjoying both a high R-R ratio AND a high win rate wouldn't be looking around for anything that might mess that up. Obviously, you are now making an incredible amount of money consistently so my advice would be to NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

To find both consistently high R-R and high WR is like hitting the lottery and winning the Golden Goose. Unless it breaks, don't try to fix it. With all their money and unlimited resources, even the biggest banks and institutions do not have what you have. You either are, or will be, one of the richest people on planet Earth. Congratulations again to The Seeker! You might even consider changing your name to The FoundIt. I look forward to reading about you in Forbes magazine, perhaps...good job!

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  #244 (permalink)
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Roger, I'm not making millions and probably never will be. Im just saying that I believe I can trade with a reward/risk that is higher than 1 and with a win rate of around 70 %.

Some believe that you cannot have both, I believe that these two parameters are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

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  #245 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post
Roger, I'm not making millions and probably never will be. Im just saying that I believe I can trade with a reward/risk that is higher than 1 and with a win rate of around 70 %.

Some believe that you cannot have both, I believe that these two parameters are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

There's an old saying, "What you can conceive and believe, you can achieve". Believing is the operative word so keep the faith and hang in there.

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  #246 (permalink)
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when are we going to have another felton webinar???sharky

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  #247 (permalink)
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rogerf View Post
There's an old saying, "What you can conceive and believe, you can achieve". Believing is the operative word so keep the faith and hang in there.

But there are dreams that cannot be
And there are storms we cannot weather


Les Miserables ~I Dreamed a Dream Lyrics

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #248 (permalink)
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I just noticed that Roger Felton's membership was revoked. That's a shock. I've read Roger's posts for quite some time and never seen him be anything less than respectful. I've seen times when a bit of sarcasm snuck in but certainly not anything bad. Also, his webinars were very informative.

I've participated in his chat room several times to see what it's all about especially with all the favorable comments I've seen in this thread. Most recently, the last 2 weeks in his chat room I saw him and Clint trading (in sim) and winning. There was one day when Roger had profit when he started moderating but I believe was negative by the time Clint took over. That is the only time in the 2 weeks that either of them lost during the time they were moderating. I'm at the point of becoming a Felton Trading member and then I saw this revocation so now am a bit shocked and wondering what happened.

I know I'll never find out what happened but thought I'd post anyway.

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  #249 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post
Roger, I'm not making millions and probably never will be. Im just saying that I believe I can trade with a reward/risk that is higher than 1 and with a win rate of around 70 %.

Some believe that you cannot have both, I believe that these two parameters are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Fear not.

It's just because they have their grail deflector set too high.

Tell them you only get 1 trade a week & they'll be fine....

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  #250 (permalink)
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What did happen to cause Roger to be banned?

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  #251 (permalink)
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MWinfrey View Post
I just noticed that Roger Felton's membership was revoked. That's a shock. ..

I know I'll never find out what happened but thought I'd post anyway.

somebody must have complained but who? since futures.io (formerly BMT) members get free indies and free room they are not going to say anything. That leads to the usual suspect, his competitors. I say make them do an equivalent of what Roger did before their complains getting heard.

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  #252 (permalink)
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somebody must have complained but who? since futures.io (formerly BMT) members get free indies and free room they are not going to say anything. That leads to the usual suspect, his competitors. I say make them do an equivalent of what Roger did before their complains getting heard.

Exactly...Roger has treated futures.io (formerly BMT) members very well as far as what he offers. Of course I don't see it all. I know he's treated me well.

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  #253 (permalink)
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Just 'wait for it.'

Seriously though; why would it matter at this point, eh?

ALL bmt members can get free access to his 'sim' room forever--and wouldn't your time be best served there (rather than him posting here)?

You could vet him for months in your free time and then decide if you want to pony up several K for the privilege {if so inclined}.

My humble opinion.

peace

hedvig

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  #254 (permalink)
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MWinfrey View Post
Exactly...Roger has treated futures.io (formerly BMT) members very well as far as what he offers. Of course I don't see it all. I know he's treated me well.

@MWinfrey

I understand your concern ... but on the other hand... if I got banned... I'm not sure I would want @Big Mike telling everyone why ....

"Well... he got drunk and posted really rude comments ... he did apologize three days later when he sobered up... but rules is rules."

"Well ... he got mad at one of them strippers he supports down at the Eager Beaver and posted nekkid pics of her .. she was cute ... but rules is rules."

"Well ... he was trying to impress some woman trader and pretended his username was MWinfrey ... granted MWinfrey actually benefitted from his new found "Street Cred' ... but rules is rules."

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #255 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@MWinfrey

I understand your concern ... but on the other hand... if I got banned... I'm not sure I would want @Big Mike telling everyone why ....

"Well... he got drunk and posted really rude comments ... he did apologize three days later when he sobered up... but rules is rules."

"Well ... he got mad at one of them strippers he supports down at the Eager Beaver and posted nekkid pics of her .. she was cute ... but rules is rules."

"Well ... he was trying to impress some woman trader and pretended his username was MWinfrey ... granted MWinfrey actually benefitted from his new found "Street Cred' ... but rules is rules."

be generous, my trading friends

for all of us guys and gals who are concerned and perhaps also curious....

perhaps, i got a little too concerned and too curious as well, for i knew roger as a vendor and educator is much better than many many others on board here and else where.

but bev as recently as a few minutes ago appeared not to be cognizant of their being banned status.

we all probably would hear from roger himself soon.

it would be a great tragedy to ban him instead of numerous other more deserving individuals and entities here, is my personal one man opinion as usual.

again, no, i have no biz interest nor any biz relationship with roger, K?

i only know that his trading setups are pretty close to what i use for trading, so his contraption just couldn't be too bad or too destructive for any wannabes, except several thousands up front fees and his unwillingness to go on live for all his students' benefits. cheers everyone.

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  #256 (permalink)
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nakachalet View Post
be generous, my trading friends

for all of us guys and gals who are concerned and perhaps also curious....

perhaps, i got a little too concerned and too curious as well, for i knew roger as a vendor and educator is much better than many many others on board here and else where.

but bev as recently as a few minutes ago appeared not to be cognizant of their being banned status.

we all probably would hear from roger himself soon.

it would be a great tragedy to ban him instead of numerous other more deserving individuals and entities here, is my personal one man opinion as usual.

again, no, i have no biz interest nor any biz relationship with roger, K?

i only know that his trading setups are pretty close to what i use for trading, so his contraption just couldn't be too bad or too destructive for any wannabes, except several thousands up front fees and his unwillingness to go on live for all his students' benefits. cheers everyone.


@nakachalet

The Point... you missed it...






As usual I was talking about ME...ME...MEEEEE....

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #257 (permalink)
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We are ON to you Texas!

peace

hedvig

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  #258 (permalink)
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  #259 (permalink)
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I just want to repeat what many have already said - Roger was fair to me and willing to share several of his indicators and techniques. He has had a generous open policy re: the trading room for futures.io (formerly BMT) members. No pressure to join Felton Trading either.

And his indicators are no longer available for download on futures.io (formerly BMT)!

I can't take sides since I don't know all the facts, but it would be good to understand what happened.

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  #260 (permalink)
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I wonder if us futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite Members are still welcome in his room? Anyone try lately?

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  #261 (permalink)
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longboat View Post
I wonder if us futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite Members are still welcome in his room? Anyone try lately?

We are still welcome now, but he is considering revoking his unlimited access offer.

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  #262 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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gibips View Post
We are still welcome now, but he is considering revoking his unlimited access offer.

am i too far behind in history lesson here?

just wonder, if you speak in his behalf?

will let you guys/gals know what the man says before cocks crow in the morning.
---------------

i am back before the rooster is home as promised.

part of the email said that

at this moment, there is no change in their policy on granting every bmt member unlimited access to their trading room

We have not made a definite decision yet on the unlimited access.

it is expected that the interests of the lenders differ significantly from the borrowers, which everyone understands. similarly, the interests of the forum differ from vendors.

if bm said the latest development which we are not privy to, drove his decision.... then, that is good enough for me; for mike has to protect his own interests as well as members on board; whatever that new development was. let's move on and wish the feltons well also. cheers.

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  #264 (permalink)
Peterborough, ON
 
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nakachalet View Post
am i too far behind in history lesson here?

just wonder, if you speak in his behalf?

will let you guys/gals know what the man says before cocks crow in the morning.

Not speaking for him. Not a member. Just attended the free trading room today and got the info I shared here.

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  #265 (permalink)
San Diego
 
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Big Mike View Post
Moderator Notice
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Mike

I actually don't mind hearing from vendors, as long as they aren't pushing their products on futures.io (formerly BMT). I think many of them have a lot to offer, and I enjoy hearing about their trading experiences, styles, etc. And if I like something they say, I may go visit their site. Is that so bad?

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  #266 (permalink)
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Please everyone don't be hard on @BigMike or @rogerf. Mike took action that he deems appropriate that he feels protects the integrity of the forum. None of us can agree or disagree with it because we don't know all the facts. I hate that it came to this because I like both Mike and Roger. I guess I'll just have to get over it.

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  #267 (permalink)
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True. And I don't know what the vendor policy is or what happened in this case. Just in general, I would hate to think we get too strict here. For me, I find the negativity of several of the futures.io (formerly BMT) members less palatable than many of the vendor postings. Fortunately, most of the members here are great and I really enjoy the forum overall.

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  #268 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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BeachTrader View Post
I actually don't mind hearing from vendors, as long as they aren't pushing their products on futures.io (formerly BMT). I think many of them have a lot to offer, and I enjoy hearing about their trading experiences, styles, etc. And if I like something they say, I may go visit their site. Is that so bad?

you really ought to be very careful when reviewing a vendor or vendors.

hold on to your dollars until the man/woman is willing to show you how he/she trades live in front of you, OK?

do not ever waste any of your time looking at whatever spread sheet, no matter how wonderful the shitty sheet looks....

just demand real live trade on a real live screen.... before handing any money over. you'll be surprised just how many of those self promotors could not even place a short or a long on a live screen.... much less teaching anyone how to trade for profit.... just be very careful.

actually, everything a trader ever needs to improve his/her trading, is all here within your grasp, really.

consider you are forewarned alright? best wishes. that is not so negative now, is it? many a times, because of limitation of time alloted, words just fly out without much premeditation rendering thoughts and reactions to certain elements seem harsh and thoughtless which actually i am most frequently guilty of. my many apologies to everyone.

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  #269 (permalink)
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"New information sent privately." That's a good one.

A lot of people in here would really benefit from being a Felton Trading student. I know I have.

Anyhow, as TMFT says, "rules is rules."

Peace

H

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  #270 (permalink)
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
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I really liked having Felton comments here. It gave a measure of Inquisition in a form that u just would not get attending a demo room presentation where attendees cannot compare notes, nor does the vendor have the chance to ignore the questions that they do not like.. It gave me some ideas on the wicked line break bars and other methods he trades. I probably never would of stumbled across on my own.. I would welcome all vendors to the forum.. Everyone already knows a vendor is trying to sell u something, so what are we being protected from?

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  #271 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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gg80108 View Post
I really liked having Felton comments here. It gave a measure of Inquisition in a form that u just would not get attending a demo room presentation where attendees cannot compare notes, nor does the vendor have the chance to ignore the questions that they do not like.. It gave me some ideas on the wicked line break bars and other methods he trades. I probably never would of stumbled across on my own.. I would welcome all vendors to the forum.. Everyone already knows a vendor is trying to sell u something, so what are we being protected from?

the question is not....so what are we being protected from?


most vendors, i'll venture to guess--more than 90% of them, are so full of it, i would quickly quit bmt;

if and when big mike allows them en mass to present whatever to elite members. i know for sure that they are many elite members here who could comfortably out perform 90% of those trading software promoters and traders training gurus or whatever names they want to call themselves.

however, in reference to felton, he is a rare exception amongst vendors. i personally knew for sure that his trading setups as presented to bmt members, are applicable, tradeable and if and when properly and timely applied, would be profitable with consistency.

i knew for sure that his setups work, 'cause his trading module as presented here was quite similar to one of my own trading setups which has been productive and profitable.

i have no biz relationship nor any commercial interest in or with felton traders training and education in whatever shape or form.

more importantly, as i recalled, roger himself always welcomed members of bmt to his trading room free of charge which has been a big plus for those progressing toward trading for profit with any degree of consistency.

however, to allow any and all vendors on board to hog their practically worthless wares, would be something that most traders with bmt would not tolerate, i am quite certain of that. any way, that is just my personal one man opinion which could differ significantly from big mike and other much more experienced traders around, K? cheers everyone.

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  #272 (permalink)
San Diego, California
 
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gg80108 View Post
I really liked having Felton comments here. It gave a measure of Inquisition in a form that u just would not get attending a demo room presentation where attendees cannot compare notes, nor does the vendor have the chance to ignore the questions that they do not like.. It gave me some ideas on the wicked line break bars and other methods he trades. I probably never would of stumbled across on my own.. I would welcome all vendors to the forum.. Everyone already knows a vendor is trying to sell u something, so what are we being protected from?

Jealousy, perhaps? I don't know... just brainstorming here.

Cheers.... H

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  #273 (permalink)
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nakachalet View Post
the question is not....so what are we being protected from?


however, in reference to felton, he is a rare exception amongst vendors. i personally knew for sure that his trading setups as presented to bmt members, are applicable, tradeable and if and when properly and timely applied, would be profitable with consistency.

Hi, I've had a separate PC running 24 hours a day 7 days a week testing retail indicators including CCI, MACD, Stochastics, moving averages, RSI, Fibs etc. This involves millions of iterations of backtesting/forward testing and advanced financial analysis in excel. I concluded that none of them will provide consistent profitability over the long term.

In fact, I concluded that 95% of traders who make trading decisions using these indicators will either lose a large chunk of their capital or all of it. The problem is identifying the market changing from trend to chop is in my opinion an art and not a science. Filtering mechanisms are therefore of little help. Therefore Roger's system will get killed in chop. After all, the market is balanced 70-80% of the time.

So I strongly disagree with your statement that futures.io (formerly BMT) traders would be consistently profitable with Roger's system. My limited experience with people like Roger who say they successfully trade these retail indicator type setups is their success has come from their ability to read price action by default after trading for 10+ years. It's not because of the indicators themselves work, it's because they themselves have evolved without realizing they even need the indicators. In any case I have yet to see one single vendor who has offered to provide audited financial statements as to their consistent profitability. I have asked a few vendors but nobody has complied. Why is that? Because they fall into the 95% of losing traders mentioned above. As a licensed CPA I would welcome the opportunity to go through these documents in minute detail.

This is no reflection on Roger as he seems a nice guy, but the only vendors worth having in the forum in my opinion are those that are able to provide traders with the tools and insight on how to measure imbalances in market supply and demand and the ability to read market structure. If you can do those two things at a proficient or advanced level and have your psychology and money management under control then the chances of becoming a highly successful trader are much greater.

Cheers
DJ

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djkiwi View Post
In any case I have yet to see one single vendor who has offered to providing audited financial statements as to their consistently profitability. I have asked a few vendors but nobody has complied. Why is that? Because they fall into the 95% of losing traders mentioned above. As a licensed CPA I would welcome the opportunity to go through these documents in minute detail.

Cheers
DJ

I am not addressing any vendor specifically. But, if a vendor starts to show actual real performance reports I believe he would have to be licensed. Its not that simple to release real results to the public without having strong legal consequences.

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  #275 (permalink)
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djkiwi View Post
Hi, I've had a separate PC running 24 hours a day 7 days a week testing retail indicators including CCI, MACD, Stochastics, moving averages, RSI, Fibs etc. This involves millions of iterations of backtesting/forward testing and advanced financial analysis in excel. I concluded that none of them will provide consistent profitability over the long term.

If you take a look @ what they teach day traders in prop shops, you'll certainly have an answer as to how effective these things are from their perspective.

What all this stuff offers is absolution from making a trading decision. If you have 3 things that 'line up' - then the actual decision is not in your hands. This is the allure. No-one wants to use discretion.

Funnily enough - the quest to find a 'magic setup' that will work forever based on some 'secret' indicator or combination of well know indicators is a much longer journey than hunkering down and just learning how to trade with discretion.

I have a friend who recently joined a prop shop. He is in training, they are paying him to train and will fund him when he shows he has 'got it'.

The amount of time that they expect a trainee to go from zero to trading 1-2 lots of their money?

12 weeks

Of course, teh interweb gurus generally claim it takes 10,000 hours....

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  #276 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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jkiwi;d224632
Hi, I've had a separate PC running 24 hours a day 7 days a week testing retail indicators including CCI, MACD, Stochastics, moving averages, RSI, Fibs etc. This involves millions of iterations of backtesting/forward testing and advanced financial analysis in excel. I concluded that none of them will provide consistent profitability over the long term.

In fact, I concluded that 95% of traders who make trading decisions using these indicators will either lose a large chunk of their capital or all of it. The problem is identifying the market changing from trend to chop is in my opinion an art and not a science. Filtering mechanisms are therefore of little help. Therefore Roger's system will get killed in chop. After all, the market is balanced 70-80% of the time.

So I strongly disagree with your statement that futures.io (formerly BMT) traders would be consistently profitable with Roger's system. My limited experience with people like Roger who say they successfully trade these retail indicator type setups is their success has come from their ability to read price action by default after trading for 10+ years. It's not because of the indicators themselves work, it's because they themselves have evolved without realizing they even need the indicators. In any case I have yet to see one single vendor who has offered to providing audited financial statements as to their consistently profitability. I have asked a few vendors but nobody has complied. Why is that? Because they fall into the 95% of losing traders mentioned above. As a licensed CPA I would welcome the opportunity to go through these documents in minute detail.

This is no reflection on Roger as he seems a nice guy, but the only vendors worth having in the forum in my opinion are those that are able to provide traders with the tools and insight on how to measure imbalances in market supply and demand and the ability to read market structure. If you can do those two things at a proficient or advanced level and have your psychology and money management under control control then the chances of becoming a highly successful trader are much greater.

Cheers
DJ

@jkiwi / dj

i am so very pleased that at long last within bmt itself, there emerges a person who is bold enough to tell us that the majority of what we use to trade with so very gleefully, happily and proudly, are practically useless....

specifically, it is categorically stated that.... In fact, I concluded that 95% of traders who make trading decisions using these indicators will either lose a large chunk of their capital or all of it....

alright, i'll call you my friend since you are also a member of bmt, OK?

my questions would center around:

1--what you stated and

2--what you claimed and

3--what you summarily concluded on feltonian setups, alright?
------------------

Q1--you stated....I concluded that none of them will provide consistent profitability over the long term.

what did you based your statistical analyses on, to be able to come to that conclusive summation?

pls do show us some raw data used, alright?

Q2--you stated....In fact, I concluded that 95% of traders who make trading decisions using these indicators will either lose a large chunk of their capital or all of it.

my friend, pls do share your raw data again, the data you used to statistically come to the conclusion that 95% of traders would lose their capital or all of it....OK?

in terms of statistical research and application, how did you arrive at that conclusive summation, pls?

Q3--you stated....Therefore Roger's system will get killed in chop.

my bold friend, how many days did you attend his trading rooms, pls?

and the data that you used to come to the conclusion stated above, were gathered from which session(s) in felton trading room, pls?

i am truly concerned regarding your statistical sample gathered from felton trading room, if you were in his room long enough or often enough in order to claim or to appraise your study or tentative conclusion as statistically valid and reliable with any degree of applicability at all?

it would be nice to see your data used in your claim, so we too could join you to acclaim your conclusion and summation as valid and reliable, K?

what do you think, my friend? have you been in his room often enough to gather unbiased data used in your personal comparison and study?

Q4--....So I strongly disagree with your statement that futures.io (formerly BMT) traders would be consistently profitable with Roger's system.

my friend, just what do you know about feltonian (a new name i just coined for roger, hope he'll like it) setups?

do you really have any PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE about feltonian or the theoretical framework behind the setups, pls?

Q5--....In any case I have yet to see one single vendor who has offered to providing audited financial statements as to their consistently profitability. I have asked a few vendors but nobody has complied. Why is that? Because they fall into the 95% of losing traders mentioned above.

pls do excuse the very crude comparison here OK?

just because a wise old frog at the bottom of a well tells all his great great grand children that the sky is round and very small indeed.... which is in line with every frog living at the bottom of that well. for every frog could see the sky is indeed round and tiny in compare with the bottom of their own well....

my friend, just because you are not cognizant of something outside of your immediate sphere of influence, that does not mean (or does it in your case?) that certain event does not exist nor that it could not exist--because you yourself are unfamiliar with it or perhaps even are ignorant of such possibility...? not calling you 'ignorant' OK?

Q6--you stated....As a licensed CPA I would welcome the opportunity to go through these documents in minute detail.

as a licensed cpa, you really ought to conduct yourself more professionally than what you've shown here so far, my friend.

my friend, being licensed as a cpa is not an easy task to come by, even though some states do not care much about the standard of professionalism in accounting, but with you it could be an exception, alright?

to be honest now, and i do hope you and everyone else here would agree that being a license holder is one thing and it is so far distance from being competent which is another monkey altogether, don't you agree, my friend?

now it is your turn to enlighten us with your facts and figures used in your summation et al, OK? only if you want to share, OK? you are under no duress nor pressure to do anything OK?

however, if you only have verbiage but no RELEVANT DATA USED to justify your conclusion then pls do not bother to respond, alright? because talk and verbiage as everyone knows, is cheap. and it is particularly cheap when it has to do with trading, OK, my friend. and there is nothing personal involved here either, K? and thx much for reading.

my humble apology to all other members who have to suffer through all my rambling and infringing upon your time and space. have a wonderful and safe weekend, everyone.

SHALOM and enjoy the attachment without any recourse whatever.






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  #277 (permalink)
 
 
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DionysusToast View Post
If you take a look @ what they teach day traders in prop shops, you'll certainly have an answer as to how effective these things are from their perspective.

What all this stuff offers is absolution from making a trading decision. If you have 3 things that 'line up' - then the actual decision is not in your hands. This is the allure. No-one wants to use discretion.

Funnily enough - the quest to find a 'magic setup' that will work forever based on some 'secret' indicator or combination of well know indicators is a much longer journey than hunkering down and just learning how to trade with discretion.

I have a friend who recently joined a prop shop. He is in training, they are paying him to train and will fund him when he shows he has 'got it'.

The amount of time that they expect a trainee to go from zero to trading 1-2 lots of their money?

12 weeks

Of course, teh interweb gurus generally claim it takes 10,000 hours....

I think you must compare other things beyond time/hours.

It could be the case where prop shops have a designed a program in place run by experienced traders
addressing things that a trader might take months or years to discover on his/her own.

Most self-directed traders are ON THEIR OWN with a screen making mistakes on their OWN CAPITAL.
This makes the game completely different for the most of us.

Lastly, not all prop shops are a recipe of success, because I know quite a few in the industry who run them.
It took some of them quite a a few years to build a solid team.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #278 (permalink)
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
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From the score keeping on this thread, looks like most BM traders need some ideas, maybe from vendors?

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  #279 (permalink)
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Agreed. I for one can't learn to trade just from reading forums although there is great info here. My major weaknesses are on the psychological/emotional side of trading and that's where I think a mentor would really help. But consider my perspective - I am a finance/accounting manager in my full time job. I could have never done that job just by reading books/forums. I had to attend and graduate from college and learn my craft from professors. I guess that is what I am used to.

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djkiwi View Post
Hi, I've had a separate PC running 24 hours a day 7 days a week testing retail indicators including CCI, MACD, Stochastics, moving averages, RSI, Fibs etc. This involves millions of iterations of backtesting/forward testing and advanced financial analysis in excel. I concluded that none of them will provide consistent profitability over the long term.

In fact, I concluded that 95% of traders who make trading decisions using these indicators will either lose a large chunk of their capital or all of it. The problem is identifying the market changing from trend to chop is in my opinion an art and not a science. Filtering mechanisms are therefore of little help. Therefore Roger's system will get killed in chop. After all, the market is balanced 70-80% of the time.

So I strongly disagree with your statement that futures.io (formerly BMT) traders would be consistently profitable with Roger's system. My limited experience with people like Roger who say they successfully trade these retail indicator type setups is their success has come from their ability to read price action by default after trading for 10+ years. It's not because of the indicators themselves work, it's because they themselves have evolved without realizing they even need the indicators. In any case I have yet to see one single vendor who has offered to provide audited financial statements as to their consistent profitability. I have asked a few vendors but nobody has complied. Why is that? Because they fall into the 95% of losing traders mentioned above. As a licensed CPA I would welcome the opportunity to go through these documents in minute detail.

This is no reflection on Roger as he seems a nice guy, but the only vendors worth having in the forum in my opinion are those that are able to provide traders with the tools and insight on how to measure imbalances in market supply and demand and the ability to read market structure. If you can do those two things at a proficient or advanced level and have your psychology and money management under control then the chances of becoming a highly successful trader are much greater.

Cheers
DJ

Post of the year....O well the first half anyway. Thank you Sir!

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  #281 (permalink)
Bala, PA, USA
 
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nakachalet View Post

...

SHALOM and enjoy the attachment without any recourse whatever.



...



Fully agree with your response. But, I have to comment on your attachments. Never judge a system by a few well chosen cherry picked signals. Even the clock on the wall that doesn't work shows the correct time twice a day. This is why when I show my charts, I will show an entire day's chart, or an entire week's chart, showing every signal, win, loose, or draw. It's too easy to cherry pick the 5 winning signals out of the 45 losers, and willingly or unwillingly misrepresent a system.

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  #282 (permalink)
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mattz View Post
I think you must compare other things beyond time/hours.

It could be the case where prop shops have a designed a program in place run by experienced traders
addressing things that a trader might take months or years to discover on his/her own.

Most self-directed traders are ON THEIR OWN with a screen making mistakes on their OWN CAPITAL.
This makes the game completely different for the most of us.

Lastly, not all prop shops are a recipe of success, because I know quite a few in the industry who run them.
It took some of them quite a a few years to build a solid team.

Well - there's some other differences.

- Prop trainees aren't allowed to try something for 2 days, decide it doesn't work and go to Google looking for an answer.

- Prop trainees get selected

- Retail traders never bother to look @ what professionals do, they presume that book writers and forum contributors are where it's at

Apart from that, I agree with your points but it does not change what works. Prop shops teach what they do for a reason. If indicator systems worked, they'd be teaching their students that.

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  #283 (permalink)
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bmt rules are bmt rules,if rodger and mike could not come to an agreement then they need to part ways,im not always pleased with how bmt is, but in the end mike and i come to some kind of agreement that works for both us us.rodger is a good man i know him as a friend outside of bmt. he is a nice guy and a strait foward guy with a method that works for him. his div pro indicator is also pretty good but a indicator wont make you a trader...Sharky

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  #284 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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monpere View Post
Fully agree with your response. But, I have to comment on your attachments. Never judge a system by a few well chosen cherry picked signals. Even the clock on the wall that doesn't work shows the correct time twice a day. This is why when I show my charts, I will show an entire day's chart, or an entire week's chart, showing every signal, win, loose, or draw. It's too easy to cherry pick the 5 winning signals out of the 45 losers, and willingly or unwillingly misrepresent a system.

the main reason that the chart is posted at the end without any prior reference one way or the other, is for @@jkiwi / dj sole benefit.

did not want @@jkiwi / dj to think that he was the only one who spent endless hours on something that was exclusively intriguing. as far as i knew, there are more than a handful within bmt who also spent endless hours and sleepless nights to pursue something that was of immense interest.

one major different between and amongst several of us is, after endless sleepless days and nights, we all seem to arrive at similar conclusion which is, that there appears to be no one statistical tool that could effective and conclusively corner the markets toward consistent profitability. many offer various reasons for their failure to arrive at some worthwhile destination.

some would go on to interpret and imply what they discovered to others who are also on the journey to rediscover their personal utopia, without allowing adequate individual differences in their application of what they discovered.

a few would press forward to analyze their findings and to tweak and combine all the positive results into a few combined traits which they could study and analyze further toward a possible tradeable solution which they can apply to their existing trading framework. while many others would just throw up their hands and gave up or just conveniently concluded that, that was it, and that there would be no other possibility.

i personally also like @jkiwi / dj's effort and determination which are paramountly important traits for anyone wishing to be successful. however, if i were @jkiwi / dj, i would only delimit my generalization to limited application and scope to only what my sample and my resultant findings would allow. <nothing personal here either, K?>

anyway coming back to your observation, monpere my friend, just for your personal info, there are just not too many traders who trade for profits would allow anyone else to look at their live trading screen or their so-called holy grail trading contraptions; am i correct in my assumption or not? perhaps, i was showing too much already.

however, my friend, if you or others wish to post the whole chart or whatever, you surely are entitled to and welcomed to as well. and i would be delighted to view your whole trading chart with interest. pls do let me know when you would post your live trading chart for us to enjoy, K?

have a wonderful and safe wkend, everyone.

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  #285 (permalink)
Bala, PA, USA
 
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nakachalet View Post
the main reason that the chart is posted at the end without any prior reference one way or the other, is for @@jkiwi / dj sole benefit.

did not want @@jkiwi / dj to think that he was the only one who spent endless hours on something that was exclusively intriguing. as far as i knew, there are more than a handful within bmt who also spent endless hours and sleepless nights to pursue something that was of immense interest.

one major different between and amongst several of us is, after endless sleepless days and nights, we all seem to arrive at similar conclusion which is, that there appears to be no one statistical tool that could effective and conclusively corner the markets toward consistent profitability. many offer various reasons for their failure to arrive at some worthwhile destination.

some would go on to interpret and imply what they discovered to others who are also on the journey to rediscover their personal utopia, without allowing adequate individual differences in their application of what they discovered.

a few would press forward to analyze their findings and to tweak and combine all the positive results into a few combined traits which they could study and analyze further toward a possible tradeable solution which they can apply to their existing trading framework. while many others would just throw up their hands and gave up or just conveniently concluded that, that was it, and that there would be no other possibility.

i personally also like @jkiwi / dj's effort and determination which are paramountly important traits for anyone wishing to be successful. however, if i were @jkiwi / dj, i would only delimit my generalization to limited application and scope to only what my sample and my resultant findings would allow. <nothing personal here either, K?>

anyway coming back to your observation, monpere my friend, just for your personal info, there are just not too many traders who trade for profits would allow anyone else to look at their live trading screen or their so-called holy grail trading contraptions; am i correct in my assumption or not? perhaps, i was showing too much already.

however, my friend, if you or others wish to post the whole chart or whatever, you surely are entitled to and welcomed to as well. and i would be delighted to view your whole trading chart with interest. pls do let me know when you would post your live trading chart for us to enjoy, K?

have a wonderful and safe wkend, everyone.

I was not referring to revealing one's trading method. The point I was trying to make is that a few well chosen cherry picked winning signals are not enough to prove a method works. You need a large sample of those signals, win, loose, or draw (not just well chosen winners) to get a more realistic view of a method. Since I am a day trader, when I show charts, I show my charts for the entire day with all the signals marked, but no, I do not reveal the details my trading method or full details of how the signals were derived.

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  #286 (permalink)
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I 100% agree with Monpere's perception, as we have to average atleast 2-3 weeks of charts around same time, like mkt open 930-1030 est. or else is all non-sense.

I would see charts for atleast 3 weeks of mkt open and we will definitely find some rough days - and rough days for a particular system may be sweet for another system. it is all we learn as we stare at screen and charts

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mattz View Post
I am not addressing any vendor specifically. But, if a vendor starts to show actual real performance reports I believe he would have to be licensed. Its not that simple to release real results to the public without having strong legal consequences.

Hi, I think the point here is vendors should be required to show real results by law. I'm not aware of any law that would prohibit a vendor from publishing audited financial performance although would welcome anybody with specific knowledge in this area.

The more probable scenario is very few of them make any money with their systems hence their reluctance to post any form of independently audited results. I suspect the only way most of the them would be able to show a system that generates consistently profitable results is by falsifying the numbers. This of course would have legal consequences.

I continue to reiterate, anybody thinking of signing up with Felton Trading or any other vendor for that matter should ask the basic question:

"If this trading system is so profitable why is this person selling it to me as opposed to trading it themselves?"

Cheers
DJ

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djkiwi View Post
Hi, I think the point here is vendors should be required to show real results by law. I'm not aware of any law that would prohibit a vendor from publishing audited financial performance although would welcome anybody with specific knowledge in this area.

The more probable scenario is very few of them make any money with their systems hence their reluctance to post any form of independently audited results. I suspect the only way most of the them would be able to show a system that generates consistently profitable results is by falsifying the numbers. This of course would have legal consequences.

I continue to reiterate, anybody thinking of signing up with Felton Trading or any other vendor for that matter should ask the basic question:

"If this trading system is so profitable why is this person selling it to me as opposed to trading it themselves?"

Cheers
DJ

The answer in this case is simple. Roger doesn't trade -- He sims. You should see me in a simulator -- I'm amazing. LOL!

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  #289 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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monpere View Post
I was not referring to revealing one's trading method. The point I was trying to make is that a few well chosen cherry picked winning signals are not enough to prove a method works. You need a large sample of those signals, win, loose, or draw (not just well chosen winners) to get a more realistic view of a method. Since I am a day trader, when I show charts, I show my charts for the entire day with all the signals marked, but no, I do not reveal the details my trading method or full details of how the signals were derived.


-------------------
emini_Holy_Grail

I 100% agree with Monpere's perception, as we have to average atleast 2-3 weeks of charts around same time, like mkt open 930-1030 est. or else is all non-sense.

I would see charts for atleast 3 weeks of mkt open and we will definitely find some rough days - and rough days for a particular system may be sweet for another system. it is all we learn as we stare at screen and charts

-------------------
djkiwi

I am not addressing any vendor specifically.... vendors should be required to show real results by law....

The more probable scenario is very few of them make any money with their systems hence their reluctance to post any form of independently audited results. I suspect the only way most of the them would be able to show a system that generates consistently profitable results is by falsifying the numbers. This of course would have legal consequences.... I continue to reiterate, anybody thinking of signing up with Felton Trading or any other vendor for that matter should ask the basic question:

"If this trading system is so profitable why is this person selling it to me as opposed to trading it themselves?"

Cheers
DJ
-------------------

@ djkiwi

you are so very wise in your closing question which also is most often asked by most sensible traders everywhere--

If this trading system is so profitable why is this person selling it to me as opposed to trading it themselves?
-------------------

....but then again, @ djkiwi, do you think there are legitimate vendors or traders out there who have more than one so-called holy grails?

....and is it plausible that the trader/vendor is willing to just part with the oldest one and withhold the most recent discoveries?

....is that scenario probable at all perhaps?

just a thought.
-------------------

anyway, thanks very much for helping me answering those who wish to see the whole trading screens. the best answer i could offer at this time is, at this point in time; none of contraptions is offered for sale nor will any be shown to generate public recognition and accolade. my humble apology.

hope everyone has a satisfying and restful holiday. also wish everyone profitable trading sessions ahead. cheers.
------------------
@djkiwi

just to remind you of what you stated earlier:
....a few well chosen cherry picked winning signals are not enough to prove a method works....

and in appreciation of your tremendous efforts in your latest responses above, another so-called holy grail is pushed up for your rare and extreme pleasure. if i remember it correctly, it covered more than three days of data, in fact, it should cover the prior whole week to avoid your stating that, it was cherry picking to inadequately convince anyone. the chart is further striped off other inessential markings to allow everyone to have a better view of this trading vehicle after it has been vigorously tweaked and tweaked and tweaked from its original humble and ordinary beginning until there seem to be nothing left but sticks, bricks and bones for better interpretation.... LOL

frankly speaking, i really do not have any particular need to upload another so-called holy grail to silence many other doubting thomases but then my partners won't have any of such skeptic baloney either.... L O L....

mind you, there are numerous others here who possess even greater trading vehicles than anything and everything that anyone would have the privilege to view and enjoy.... but also there is no incentive for any of them to show and tell their money making setups, which is most understandable.

neither is there any pecuniary incentive nor any other incentive for any of them to show us their priceless trading vehicles. i won't blame them nor label them them at all; neither would i express any doubt if such superlative minds and traders exist among us.

indeed there are many, particularly the case involved the gentleman from bangkok, thailand who has been trading profitably and consistently for months on end, and doing so silently behind closed door.

and if you recall, the same gentleman also submitted his broker statements to silence numerous critics who doubted that there is anyone in real life, who can trade profitably and consistently over a period of time. yes, he is a bmt member as well.

pls do remember, i disavow any personal and financial responsibility should the Ying-Yang Candles fail to enrich you in any which way you envision, alright? consider you are forewarned, ladies and gentlemen.

thx again, djkiwi and emini-holy grail, for this opportunity generated by your earlier statement.

have a happy and safe holiday and whatever is left of it.... cheers.



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  #290 (permalink)
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nakachalet View Post
-------------------

but then again, @djkiwi, do you thnik there are ligitimate vendors out there who have more than one so-called holy grails?

and is it plausible that the trader/vendor is willing to just part with the oldest one and withhold the most recent discoveries?
-------------------

Hi, I think nearly all vendors are failed traders who often have better sales and marketing skills than trading skills. It's like the guy who wanted to be a pilot but didn't qualify and ended up as an aircraft engineer to at least be close to the action.

Vendor products are sadly directed at novice traders who unfortunately do not know any better and greed overrides their normally sound judgment.

To answer your question specifically I've had a quick look at Felton trading's website and would put forward the following points for comment. Comments will relate to the following excerpt:



1. Quote one highlighted - "the method itself often pinpoints the exact minute and second that the market is going to make a move".

Of course any trader with even a small amount of experience would recognize this claim as nonsense. Even the "smart money" do not know when the move will take place and will scale into a position around their preferred entry range.

Now of course if the Felton method was able to identify moves to the exact minute and second do you think the inventor would be telling you about it or trading on sim?

2. Quote 2 - "Stops are never more than a point in the Russell 2000".

This is also an interesting public statement. Tight fixed rate stops without considering volatility is often a proven recipe for disaster. Death by 1000 cuts.

To illustrate this, I've attached a volatility analysis of the Russell 2000 over the last 3 years based on the morning trading session. It shows the percentile volatility for each 30 minute period. I've highlighted the median (50th percentile) for each half hour period (in points) being 5.9, 4.8, 4.2 and 3.4. So as the day progresses we can see volatility decreasing.



"Now based on Felton's 1 point stop method the probability of being stopped out in a trade held for more than 30 minutes is well over 90%".

You can see even the bottom 10% from 7.00am - 7.30 am is 3.0 points. So this means that only 10% of trades have an ATR of 3.0 or less.

3. Quote 3 - "capture larger market moves with a special trailing stop technique that is only taught in Felton trading"

Based on point 2, you would not be able to capture any large move because you would be stopped out with the volatility. The "special" trailing stop is simply a marketing ploy aimed at beginner traders. As we all know here, a trailing stop isn't special.

The other point to consider is the Felton method is a scalping method which competes with the autobots. I estimate retail scalpers scalping between 6-18 ticks on TF lose an additional 15-26% of each trade due to slippage and commissions. This is akin to taking your "zero" on a roulette wheel and adding another 7 zeros. Would you play roulette with the house sporting 8 zeros? The problem with scalping is you need an extremely high winning % just to cover your commissions and slippage.

In summary, I cannot say whether a trader would be consistently profitable if they took every trade on the Felton system. However, there does not appear to be anything special that would provide an edge to the trader. Furthermore systems that ignore volatility can get chopped up and slippage and commissions would likely further erode any profitability.



Cheers
DJ

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  #291 (permalink)
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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TO REITERATE #2:

@monpere;

@djkiwi

@emini_Holy_Grail


thx again, djkiwi, monpere and emini-holy grail, for this opportunity generated by your earlier statement.

have a happy and safe holiday and whatever is left of it.... cheers.
--------------------
THE attachment #2 covers the beginning early morning trading session before u.s. market opens for tuesday, may 29, 2012.

thought you might like to view the early morning session overseas before the u.s. market opens today;

hope y'al like what you see just as much as we do overseas here along the andaman shore.

won't be posting anymore on this. thx everyone for your patience, indulgence and utmost tolerance.

hope everyone would have an exciting and profitable trading day both in u.s. and around the globe. cheers.




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the coin hunter
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Better Renko Stick

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  #293 (permalink)
desert CA
 
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Saw Felton posting at Traderslaboratory.

If I Hear "price Action" or "setup" ONE More Time... - Page 8 - Traders Laboratory Forums - 12555

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  #294 (permalink)
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---

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---

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  #296 (permalink)
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  #297 (permalink)
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"As for the reason I was banned, I had a private email conversation with a private individual where I expressed my personal lack of faith in the administrators trading skills. Simple as that. It was pertinent to a question posed to me by the individual. Had the admin not been trying to pass himself off as a trading "expert", the subject would never have come up in that email conversation. I simply expressed a personal opinion based on several facts. I had not realized that I was a member of a forum where I could not express my opinion in a private email exchange OUTSIDE OF THE FORUM and be banned for doing so! If it hadn't happened to me I would not have thought it possible for a successful forum to be run that way"
If I Hear "price Action" or "setup" ONE More Time... - Page 8 - Traders Laboratory Forums - 12555

I asked Felton to clarify this, and he said that, in order to help someone losing money, he advised that someone not to take advice from a certain administrator on this board. That "someone" later conveyed that message to said administrator, and that's why he got banned.

He expressed a wish for someone to tell his side of the story in this thread. While I have no horse in this race, I believe everyone is entitled to state their case.

I would appreciate if this could get verified or debunked... It's sometimes difficult to understand (due to the posts having been removed) why certain posters get banned, and I wish there was a thread where the administrators would post evidence of the "bannees" wrongdoings.

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Maybe we should just let this go instead of exasperating the situation. What is the value add here?

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  #299 (permalink)
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Maybe we should just let this go instead of exasperating the situation. What is the value add here?

Angry mob mentality so detrimental to the French aristocracy and young New England girls of yore.

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"Nothing says more than silence."

Me

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