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Has anyone ever heard of Felton Trading? (www.feltontrading.com)


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Has anyone ever heard of Felton Trading? (www.feltontrading.com)

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  #101 (permalink)
 sharky 
MIAMI,FL
 
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i second that,its hard to let others trade with you or teach and trade at the same time,i know ive tried it...sharky

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  #102 (permalink)
 dannyss35 
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never trade their live account while being distracted...

Roger I hope you have never traded on the floor as I am sure you would have been distracted.

I am not posting here to give Roger a hard time however I want new traders to know that success from trading is in the mirror and not in purchasing some indicators or system. I can make money trading a 2 MA cross and I thought the whole purpose of a place like this was that traders could help traders for FREE teaching and learning without vendors trying to lure people to there website or trading room.

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  #103 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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I now have most of my core indicators pulled from DivPro and will be uploading them to the Elite area as I begin a new thread there. I hope we can then finally end all this banter back and forth about how I'm just trying to lure people to my trading room to try to sell them something. People who believe that are the ones who haven't read my posts in this thread. They're also the ones who think Floor Trading and Electronic Trading are no different. Ask any floor trader if they mentored a group of newbies every day while they had big bucks riding on their live trades...I work with several of them in the room.

futures.io (formerly BMT) is all about traders freely helping other traders. They are eager to learn but only if it has real value and truely helps them become better traders. I'm hoping that moving this to the Elite section will attract traders who want and appreciate what I can do for them.

This is a terrific group of dedicated traders. Many have worked very hard for several years with little to show for it. I believe I can help. My only request is that everyone continues to post their true feelings based on your actual experience with me...and let's all have fun in the process.

Roger

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  #104 (permalink)
 Jeff Castille 
Northern California
 
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dannyss35 View Post
never trade their live account while being distracted...

Roger I hope you have never traded on the floor as I am sure you would have been distracted.

I am not posting here to give Roger a hard time however I want new traders to know that success from trading is in the mirror and not in purchasing some indicators or system. I can make money trading a 2 MA cross and I thought the whole purpose of a place like this was that traders could help traders for FREE teaching and learning without vendors trying to lure people to there website or trading room.

You know one of the nice features about Big Mikes forum is that it has an "ignore" button........if you don't like this thread or Roger then I suggest you don't read his threads or use your "ignore" button........have a great day.

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  #105 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
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dannyss35 View Post
never trade their live account while being distracted...

Roger I hope you have never traded on the floor as I am sure you would have been distracted.

I am not posting here to give Roger a hard time however I want new traders to know that success from trading is in the mirror and not in purchasing some indicators or system. I can make money trading a 2 MA cross and I thought the whole purpose of a place like this was that traders could help traders for FREE teaching and learning without vendors trying to lure people to there website or trading room.

Danny,

I appreciate you being upfront, but like Roger said this has all been discussed before. Roger here always has to deal w/ the harm of other not-so-good training guys and I think if you listened in on the group (for free no less) then you would be able to understand better what he is trying to do.

I honestly believe that Roger Felton is not of the "I have to make a lot of money to feed my EGO" club. He sounds like a good ol' boy from Texas who has discovered that he can help other people and that gives him a good feeling and inspires him to get up in the morning. Just a guess, but I doubt he has always been like that, but he definitely seems to be that way now.

I wish Roger all the good fortune anyone deserves with decent motives. But, Danny you are right in that there are too many snakes!

Also, you do not need a CTA license (I can get one but don't have one) to call trades unless you are recommending the trades to your students to take. Roger seems to take the approach, this is what I am taking, this is what my indicators say to me, but he does not say, "Get in here, get out here..." Then, I believe he would be required to be registered w/ NFA and have CTA license.

Thanks for sharing Roger, you give me hope in thinking that not all vendors are snakes. Keep it up!

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  #106 (permalink)
 dannyss35 
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JEFF

Thank you for the advise and I did have a great day; trading.

Dan

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  #107 (permalink)
 Trafford 
London, England
 
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That is not true an educator should be taking live trades. Jimmy at JPJ does. Kam at L2ST does. SIM is not the same thing people may tell you it is but it AIN'T. Do not let anyone tell you SIM trading is the same as real trading as they are lying. If someone is charging you 3k+ for a system/training that is where their core earnings are made - and its no risk. Remember the people that sold the shovels during in the Gold rush made more money than the people digging for gold - uhm what does that tell you.

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  #108 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
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Trafford View Post
That is not true an educator should be taking live trades. Jimmy at JPJ does. Kam at L2ST does. SIM is not the same thing people may tell you it is but it AIN'T. Do not let anyone tell you SIM trading is the same as real trading as they are lying. If someone is charging you 3k+ for a system/training that is where their core earnings are made - and its no risk. Remember the people that sold the shovels during in the Gold rush made more money than the people digging for gold - uhm what does that tell you.

It tells me to start selling shovels! But, not all the shovels are of the same type, dimension etc..

I agree, live is much better than sim. Until you get to a point where you believe clicking the dom SIM is the same as live, then I agree that it isn't.

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  #109 (permalink)
 dannyss35 
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look if people are not selling trading software, there selling cars, shoes, hot dogs and even tin.

they will always sell something to pay the bills and that is the bottom line.

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  #110 (permalink)
 fluxsmith 
Santa Maria
 
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Trafford View Post
...If someone is charging you 3k+ for a system/training that is where their core earnings are made - and its no risk...

It might be no risk (he does have an investment in infrastructure and employees), but listening in on his room for a week, it's sure a lot of work. He makes himself very available to his students, it's not like he sells you an indicator and he's done with you. It's more work than I'd be willing to undertake.

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  #111 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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fluxsmith View Post
It might be no risk (he does have an investment in infrastructure and employees), but listening in on his room for a week, it's sure a lot of work. He makes himself very available to his students, it's not like he sells you an indicator and he's done with you. It's more work than I'd be willing to undertake.

Very difficult for a system vendor with an 8am-4pm trading room to also trade for a living, unless they have sufficient staff running the business and moderating the room, and most of these small vendors cannot afford large staff. They have to work 12 hour days to keep a small business like that going, with customer relations, sales, trade room moderating, after market classes, preparation, research, programing, webinars, etc. There is no time to trade. I did programming work for 2 years for one of these snake oil system/trade room vendors, I know what is required behind the scene when you only have 2 or 3 people supporting the business.

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  #112 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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monpere View Post
Very difficult for a system vendor with an 8am-4pm trading room to also trade for a living, unless they have sufficient staff running the business and moderating the room, and most of these small vendors cannot afford large staff. They have to work 12 hour days to keep a small business like that going, with customer relations, sales, trade room moderating, after market classes, preparation, research, programing, webinars, etc. There is no time to trade. I did programming work for 2 years for one of these snake oil system/trade room vendors, I know what is required behind the scene when you only have 2 or 3 people supporting the business.

He has about 5-7 people I believe.

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  #113 (permalink)
 Mindless 
GA
 
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I took one of his free sessions with his room. The trading room is more like a commercial for his automated systems.
Then I had the privilege of a salesman calling me relentlessly until I convinced him that I was completely not interested.
This is for you if you want a black box.
Don't waist your time if your leaning toward discretionary trading.

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  #114 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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Mindless View Post
I took one of his free sessions with his room. The trading room is more like a commercial for his automated systems.
Then I had the privilege of a salesman calling me relentlessly until I convinced him that I was completely not interested.
This is for you if you want a black box.
Don't waist your time if your leaning toward discretionary trading.


You forgot to mention the part about the goons we sent to your house to harass you every night for six months...

Look, we know full well that we can't help everyone and we also know that what we offer isn't for everyone. But why can't we just stick with the truth when we talk about a product or service that doesn't appeal to us?

Here are the facts about Felton Trading: We do not offer an automated system and we do not offer a black box. We teach discretionary trading only and probably always will. We offer a "trader assist" software to help identify potential trades, but in no way is it a black box since we explain exactly what it is looking for all day long and anyone can identify the same entries manually.

Everyone associated with Felton Trading is commanded to NEVER harass or pressure anyone in any way. I absolutely despise companies that do what you describe. The job of the sales staff is to just answer questions, that's it. We have an excellent staff, in my opinion. I have never had anyone accuse any of them of relentless uninvited phone calls. If true, an email from you to me would have stopped that immediately and that guy would have been out of a job.

Mindless, if you would be so kind as to provide the name of your FT sales representative and the time period that this relentless contact was made, I will obtain a copy of that reps corporate phone log and we'll get to the truth here quickly. Although you were completely mistaken on your other points, if it appears that you were relentlessly harassed by one of my staff, I will take immediate steps to remedy the problem and issue you my sincerest humble apology.

Thanks,

Roger

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  #115 (permalink)
evroom1
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Mindless View Post
I took one of his free sessions with his room. The trading room is more like a commercial for his automated systems.
Then I had the privilege of a salesman calling me relentlessly until I convinced him that I was completely not interested.
This is for you if you want a black box.
Don't waist your time if your leaning toward discretionary trading.

It clear that you have no clue as to why someone would offer to provide a free trial to a room. If you do not want someone to sell you something then do not go to these rooms. Da. From experince I know they only phoned you once, no hard sell, one thing iliked about them.

Felton happens to be better than most and the chances that you learn something to make money are every good.

In fact you would have to be mindless not to.

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  #116 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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Here's a reminder that any futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite member is automatically granted full unlimited access to the Felton Trading Room. Be sure to send an email to Beverly@FeltonTrading.com letting here know you are a futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite member and she will make sure that no one ever tries to contact you from FT for any reason.

Relax, enjoy and be sure to ask all the questions you can think of.

Thanks!

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  #117 (permalink)
 David_R 
San Jose, Ca
 
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rogerf View Post
Here's a reminder that any futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite member is automatically granted full unlimited access to the Felton Trading Room. Be sure to send an email to Beverly@FeltonTrading.com letting here know you are a futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite member and she will make sure that no one ever tries to contact you from FT for any reason.

Relax, enjoy and be sure to ask all the questions you can think of.

Thanks!


Roger,

I think that it is great gesture.

David

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  #118 (permalink)
 Mindless 
GA
 
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Roger,

I did not in any way intend to discredit your product. I was just giving my opinion of my experience of your room. I swear you spent the whole week in your trading room. Trying to market some black box, automated system, trader assist program or what ever you want to call it. I think named the sniper. It's been a year now so I could be wrong on the name.

And I was just giving my opinion of my experience. Which is the title of this post. I am not here to argue with you or your minions. Or get your sales man fired.

I wish you the best.

This is my last post in this Thread. I'm not the type to argue. So you and your minions can have a hay day in defending your precious ego.

But I am here to learn, share and give my opinion when asked.

Thanks
Mindless

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  #119 (permalink)
 dh004110 
Aurora, canada
 
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i have tried Rogers room 3 years ago.....he is a good man....just couldn't apply the strategy to my daily live trading...

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  #120 (permalink)
 longboat 
Philadelphia, Pa
 
Experience: Advanced
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I took Roger up on his very gracious offer to us futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members and spent some time in his trade room. Roger is a great trader and has built a remarkable system with indicators. I would reccommend to any futures.io (formerly BMT) that they try it out. You have nothing to lose. Nobody has tried to sell me anything or anything like that. Roger is a wonderful gentleman and really seems to care about his students. He routinely makes over 1k in the room, today it was over 2k trading 2 lots. He traded mostly CL and 6E but also takes trades on 6A,6B,6J,GC, NQ and others. He had one losing day in the last week but I think he would have passed on trades but just took some because the room wants to watch him. It is in SIM, which always puts up a red flag for me, but most of his trades are discussed before hand and you usually have time to enter as they are called in advance. He does show his dome on trades and even as he manages the trade. My only question is that he uses stop limit orders to get in trades instead of stops so he would probably would get no fills more in a live account. No big deal as he likes to get in on small pullbacks. I have been trading a long time and I learned a few trades that I will definitely use in the future. I am going to spend more time with Roger and see how it progresses. I am not a student (yet) and have no affiliation with Felton Trading FYI. It is nice to see vendors who care about their students and let us kick the tires for free. I'll post more again soon. Thanks for the wonderful opportunity you are giving us Elite members Roger.!

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  #121 (permalink)
 KeepingItSimple 
Alpharetta, GA
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Question for Longboat. When you signed up for Rogers free trading room was it only for one week or Unlimited? When I signed up I only got one week. And was notified by Beverly felton that I would have to notify her if I needed more time.

But the room is great so far.

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  #122 (permalink)
 longboat 
Philadelphia, Pa
 
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KeepingItSimple View Post
Question for Longboat. When you signed up for Rogers free trading room was it only for one week or Unlimited? When I signed up I only got one week. And was notified by Beverly felton that I would have to notify her if I needed more time.

But the room is great so far.

Email her and make sure you tell her that you are a futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite member and she should remove the restriction. That is what she did for me. It has not been a week yet for me but she said she took off. Good luck.

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  #123 (permalink)
 dh004110 
Aurora, canada
 
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thank you so much for the valued feedback about the live trading room...

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  #124 (permalink)
 esplorare 
Phoenix AZ
 
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I think Mindless has either the wrong trading room (not Roger's), or he/she has missed the point completely and did not understand at all what it was Roger was doing in the room. This method is so far away from 'Balck Box' it's laughable. It is totally discretionary and it's totally up to you to make the trade work for or against you.


Mindless View Post
Roger,

I did not in any way intend to discredit your product. I was just giving my opinion of my experience of your room. I swear you spent the whole week in your trading room. Trying to market some black box, automated system, trader assist program or what ever you want to call it. I think named the sniper. It's been a year now so I could be wrong on the name.

And I was just giving my opinion of my experience. Which is the title of this post. I am not here to argue with you or your minions. Or get your sales man fired.

I wish you the best.

This is my last post in this Thread. I'm not the type to argue. So you and your minions can have a hay day in defending your precious ego.

But I am here to learn, share and give my opinion when asked.

Thanks
Mindless


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  #125 (permalink)
evroom1
sarasota fl
 
 
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esplorare View Post
I think Mindless has either the wrong trading room (not Roger's), or he/she has missed the point completely and did not understand at all what it was Roger was doing in the room. This method is so far away from 'Balck Box' it's laughable. It is totally discretionary and it's totally up to you to make the trade work for or against you.

I think the name says it all "mindless" Mindless most likely has had bad or infective instruction from others and now decides to spoil it for all trainors in order to get back at them. Truth be dammed. Felton was one of the better rooms I have tried out. I wish I had found them before I wasted money on the other stuff I did land up buying.
There are to many people like "mindless" on all trading forum. They reduce the effectivness of good people who want to actually help and are the prime reason so many good traders and trainors never find their way to any forum for long.

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  #126 (permalink)
 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
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dannyss35 View Post
look if people are not selling trading software, there selling cars, shoes, hot dogs and even tin.

they will always sell something to pay the bills and that is the bottom line.

***DISCLAIMER: I have ABSOLUTELY NO connection (economic or otherwise) to Felton Trading.

This all begins to be rather silly. How can a group of people who live in market economies have such an aversion to selling. For god's sake people lets get the issue straight. I've bought shovels and shoes and used cars. Sometimes I'm happy with the products; sometimes they are crap. Sometimes the vendor does me a service and sometimes they rip me off. A little up front suspicion is undoubtedly called for but the whole point of the suspicion is to validate the product and the vendor -- not to repeat the same mantra over and over (he's a salesman, blah blah, blah.) Take the next step, sign up, check it out and share the experience with your futures.io (formerly BMT) compatriots. Otherwise, as they say, get off the pot.

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  #127 (permalink)
 jammer509 
Los Angeles, CA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
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I've signed up for the trial. Got five days initially, emailed Beverly for extension. She gave me til the end of month. There is no pressure, no sales person has contacted me. So far room is great and Roger makes it look so easy.

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  #128 (permalink)
 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
Experience: Intermediate
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jammer509 View Post
I've signed up for the trial. Got five days initially, emailed Beverly for extension. She gave me til the end of month. There is no pressure, no sales person has contacted me. So far room is great and Roger makes it look so easy.

I, on the other hand, have had no luck at all getting into Roger's trading room. Contacted both him and Beverly separately, indicated that I was a member of futures.io (formerly BMT) and so far (2 or 3 weeks later) haven't had any response whatsoever.

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  #129 (permalink)
 esplorare 
Phoenix AZ
 
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Doesn't sound right. You must not be connecting with either of them. In addition to the open offer to Big Mike's subscribers, they always offer a free trial week. They're always good about responding. Check your contact info. Correct e-mail is beverly@feltontrading.com

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  #130 (permalink)
 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/CQG and Interactive Brokers
Trading: ES
 
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esplorare View Post
Doesn't sound right. You must not be connecting with either of them. In addition to the open offer to Big Mike's subscribers, they always offer a free trial week. They're always good about responding. Check your contact info. Correct e-mail is beverly@feltontrading.com


Tracked down the issue. Problem was with my return address. Seems it was auto-forwarding into cyberspace.

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  #131 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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rogerf View Post
  • In trading, the system is everything. A monkey should be able to win with it or else it's snake oil.
  • Hard work, study and lots of practice are unnecessary if you find the right trading system. It's surely out there and shouldn't cost more than a few dollars.
  • A mentor's trading statements are proof positive that everyone will be successful.
  • Anyone good at anything that makes money would have to be insane to want to teach it.

When I got to this point in the post, I thought "What Nonsense!!!"


rogerf View Post
Anyone really believe any of that stuff? A lot of traders do. If I buy Tiger Woods golf clubs, I'm guaranteed a win in the Masters Tournament, right? There is no trading system in the world that will make you a dime without lots of work. You have to know the markets you're trading for they each have their own little quirks. Your trading system is simply a tool to be used like a carpenter would use his table saw. If he never learns how to use that saw...and never practices with it, he'll probably not make it in his chosen craft.

Then of course, the penny dropped!!


rogerf View Post
Most traders who are not successful are ones that just got in their own way. Anyone who thinks they can work through their mental blocks and develop a winning trading system on their own or by reading a few books are kidding themselves. It can be done but most people don't have a decade or two to get there. Most highly successful trading professionals had a good mentor who could also teach. There's a great article on this topic in the Oct. issue of Active Trader magazine (pg.49).

I have to agree with this. What careers are there where you can just turn up (in your pyjamas) and start making money without any tuition or guidance?

Traders that think they can find a magical system may also be interested in:

"How to beat the dealer at Black Jack"
"Surefire way to pick winners in Horse Races"
"Get millions in grants from the government"
"Earn $1000 a day as a copywriter"
"Buy million dollar houses for pennies at government auctions"

etc.etc.etc.

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  #132 (permalink)
 dmane 
Sydney NSW Australia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, TradeStation
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire & Tradestation
Trading: ES
 
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I think they're the best. I did Rockwell, David Marsh and local Australian courses, and they're good but I think Roger's the best. I use his trading software and I like it, particularly FT Momentum, Turbo & channels. At the risk of sounding like a somebody I'll say what I've learnt and why I like Roger Felton so much.
You have to own your system like a master and Roger forces you to create and own your own system. Then, I say, you've got try variations until you find one you love and then count exactly how many times it succeeds & fails looking back over some months. If it works you must paper trade it until you've doubled your money. Then you gently, gently start real money trading so, so minimally because the gambling bug
YouTube - ‪Merrie Melodies - Early to Beat‬‏
is waiting to destroy you. Above all, you have to work like a Trojan. Do all this and Roger will help you all the way. He's a good guy.

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no111
NED
 
 
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longboat View Post
Email her and make sure you tell her that you are a futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite member and she should remove the restriction. That is what she did for me. It has not been a week yet for me but she said she took off. Good luck.

Longboat, are you still in the room?

Tonight there is a webinar from Felton..

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  #134 (permalink)
 longboat 
Philadelphia, Pa
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Charts
Broker: Amp/CQG
Trading: CL, ES
 
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no111 View Post
Longboat, are you still in the room?

Tonight there is a webinar from Felton..

Have not been in there in awhile, but I'll be in Roger's webinar.

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  #135 (permalink)
no111
NED
 
 
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longboat View Post
Have not been in there in awhile, but I'll be in Roger's webinar.

May I ask.. why did you go away?

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  #136 (permalink)
 fossil 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker: IB and zen-Fire
Trading: NQ
 
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Hi folks,
first i like you to know that english is not my mother language so donīt lookt at this to close.

Iīve bee trading for almost 2 years and i was not a winner like so many other traders. Than in april this year 2011 i watched the online webinar here at futures.io (formerly BMT). Since the first minute i like the method behind very much and joined Rogers room as a trailmember.
From day to day the method showed up to me more and more.
Roger had already put some of his staff here at futures.io (formerly BMT) to download and i tryed it. Right away i begane to have winning trades like never befor and in marketsituation i normaly wouldnīt had entered a trade.
So for me trading is like looking on a picture. If 10 people stands in front of a drawn modern picture, you will have 12 different opinions what the people see. And this is the reson why the markets work.
My personal view did not match the view of the most traders and thats why i did not win regular.
Ok back to my story. I talked to my wife and we made a desicion to become a Felton student and if this wonīt work i would had to quit trading!
But guess what since my first day i am on the right side of the market and making money a lot in sim and enough in real money.
With the software DivPro i have the tools and with Rogers help i am getting the view.
So i paid for it and it is ok for me because everythink was it worth.
Somewhere in this forum Big Mike gave the advice not to pay for a system! An he is absolutly right because Roger is not selling a system he is selling tools to learn how to look at the market and how to find a personal way to trade the way like you like.
If you enter his room you will find out, that Clint he is a room moderator and Roger trading the method but not the same way and bot very sccessfull.
Come over talk to Roger and us (the students) and find out what i am talking about!

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  #137 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Trading: 6E, CL, GC
 
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fossil View Post
Hi folks,
first i like you to know that english is not my mother language so donīt lookt at this to close.

Iīve bee trading for almost 2 years and i was not a winner like so many other traders. Than in april this year 2011 i watched the online webinar here at futures.io (formerly BMT). Since the first minute i like the method behind very much and joined Rogers room as a trailmember.
From day to day the method showed up to me more and more.
Roger had already put some of his staff here at futures.io (formerly BMT) to download and i tryed it. Right away i begane to have winning trades like never befor and in marketsituation i normaly wouldnīt had entered a trade.
So for me trading is like looking on a picture. If 10 people stands in front of a drawn modern picture, you will have 12 different opinions what the people see. And this is the reson why the markets work.
My personal view did not match the view of the most traders and thats why i did not win regular.
Ok back to my story. I talked to my wife and we made a desicion to become a Felton student and if this wonīt work i would had to quit trading!
But guess what since my first day i am on the right side of the market and making money a lot in sim and enough in real money.
With the software DivPro i have the tools and with Rogers help i am getting the view.
So i paid for it and it is ok for me because everythink was it worth.
Somewhere in this forum Big Mike gave the advice not to pay for a system! An he is absolutly right because Roger is not selling a system he is selling tools to learn how to look at the market and how to find a personal way to trade the way like you like.
If you enter his room you will find out, that Clint he is a room moderator and Roger trading the method but not the same way and bot very sccessfull.
Come over talk to Roger and us (the students) and find out what i am talking about!


Thanks for those kind words. I think one of the reasons you are doing so well so quickly is your ability to listen and stick with your trading plan. Wish all of my followers over these many years had your patience and dicipline. And thanks for posting all those great calls in the trading room! Keep it up!

Roger

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  #138 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-Fire)
Trading: ES
 
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Thanks to Roger for embracing the forum as opposed to other vendors who have grumbled if u post something about their service (personal experience)........................

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  #139 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-Fire)
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 201 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 196 given, 130 received

Took the trial week (roger would probably call it the trail partner!)...
Everyday the premarket trading/ account pnl displayed in Ninja for the day was positive, then the normal " day sessions" started and the equity went down hill fast.
Every color in the ninja palette is used to color this and that, other.. but for me since I'm color challenged,,, was a foreign language... Roughly 1 in 10 men are fully or partly colour blind,, course pleasing 9 out of 10 times is great...

Course anyone who has checked into these rooms,, always has the "winning guy" making his goal taking the day off, but did not get the impression that everyone was running for the door because of a great day... Think its the 5% winners of traders rule......

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 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Trading: forex
 
Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
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Roger, I got your email the other day where you said that you made $2,000 demo-dollars trading the CL. I wish that you would make the indicators for Metatrader, since most brokers don't offer NinjaTrader for free. (I tried to install Ninja for a free trial, but it gave me numerous problems. Plus, it's bloated.)

Moreover, I'd love to see some stats on Metatrader to Ninjatrader usage statistics. I bet there's tons more people using Metatrader than Ninja.

I'm asking because when I traded demo for 3 months and did fabulously well. It was like a demo-dollar printing machine for me-- literally thousands per day!! The screens are the exactly the same with the live account-- I had them side by side to compare. Then I switched to real money and I'm already negative. The problem was overtrading. Now I'm a little apprehensive. Got any advice anybody?

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  #141 (permalink)
 eDanny 
East Rochester, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
 
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Treat every trade like a live trade and your results will be similar, except for slippage etc.

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  #142 (permalink)
 esplorare 
Phoenix AZ
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Trading: oil, gold, silver, selected currency futures and grains
 
Posts: 6 since Jan 2011
Thanks: 1 given, 17 received

I don't know about the number of traders using Metatrader vs. Ninja, but I am pretty sure the number using Ninja is very high. It's a good platform when used in conjunction with a good quality real-time data feed and it's very versatile.

Regarding trading sim vs. live, I'd have to agree with eDanny. You need to establish a tight mindset on treating the demo account no different than the live account. If you do not, your sim results will be worthless. A helpful exercise in this regard is to set the dollar amount of your demo account with the exact amount of your live account. This way you will not be tempted to trade 50 contracts and get 3 ticks to fix a trade gone bad. Also, be sure your demo account P&L deducts for commissions and fees on all of your trades.

On another note, moving from sim to live trading is always taxing on the psyche. Your head knows you have real money at risk when you trade live and it drives your emotions to a heightened level. Discipline and controlling your emotions are easy hurdles when trading a demo account; not so for live trading. If your method of trading works consistently in sim, it should also work in live trading. The problem is handling the psychological part of live trading, and that takes serious focus and self-discipline.

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  #143 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
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The # of traders on MT4/5 vs. Ninja is probably 1,000 to 1 but just a guess from being around in the forums for a couple years and reading EVERYTHING.

The comments above about going from sim/live is spot-on. I struggled with this myself and would catch myself 'playing' around, but I would also do that with my own cash!

I would do this:

1. Go back to SIM for at least meeting x number of points per day per contract. This includes commissions of course and all other trading costs.

2. Verify the # of contracts is suitable to not make a difference in your mental abilities. For instance, I will trade at MINIMUM 1 contract per 50K when I start up live next time. This is at a point where if I have a bad day it will not sink me mentally. So, even though my account will be much larger, I will still start with 1 contract LIVE and go up after x # of days and making x # of points. (For me it is 2 points per day for 60 trading days)

3. Read books like 'Trading in the Zone' to discover a bit more about your mental self. Understand why you are trading differently.

4. Record your trading sessions and talk as much as you can about how you are feeling, what you are thinking etc.. You can also write all this down of course. Start a journal and document it all. I look back on 1.5 year old videos and am amazed.

5. SIM = LIVE. Period. You have to agree and not cheat yourself that if you click that mouse on SIM, then you just clicked it live. That is why an online journal w/ recording is good (that is why I do it) because it keeps me honest. Yes, there were many days of me not wanting to post.

6. Keep a spreadsheet or tally of your wins/losses, etc.. This will help you understand where you are at statistically and whether you should be moving ahead or not.

7. Learn EFT's, they work, and you don't even have to agree they work! haha... Google "Emotional Freedom Technique's"

8. Discover or understand if anything is distracting you. How can you make the system your own, what could be causing the differences with your trading that are presented in your physical world. For example, I listen to meditation music while I trade. I sometimes meditate prior, and I never open stressful email prior to trading or whatever. No conversations or anything that taxes me prior.

That is all I could think of... Good luck.

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 esplorare 
Phoenix AZ
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Trading: oil, gold, silver, selected currency futures and grains
 
Posts: 6 since Jan 2011
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bluemele - good advice, especially about keeping the journal. I have talked with other successful traders using EFT's. They speak highly of their use as well.

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  #145 (permalink)
 jwhtrades 
woodstock, ga
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: Futures, TF, CL
 
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bluemele View Post
The # of traders on MT4/5 vs. Ninja is probably 1,000 to 1 but just a guess from being around in the forums for a couple years and reading EVERYTHING.

The comments above about going from sim/live is spot-on. I struggled with this myself and would catch myself 'playing' around, but I would also do that with my own cash!

I would do this:

1. Go back to SIM for at least meeting x number of points per day per contract. This includes commissions of course and all other trading costs.

2. Verify the # of contracts is suitable to not make a difference in your mental abilities. For instance, I will trade at MINIMUM 1 contract per 50K when I start up live next time. This is at a point where if I have a bad day it will not sink me mentally. So, even though my account will be much larger, I will still start with 1 contract LIVE and go up after x # of days and making x # of points. (For me it is 2 points per day for 60 trading days)

3. Read books like 'Trading in the Zone' to discover a bit more about your mental self. Understand why you are trading differently.

4. Record your trading sessions and talk as much as you can about how you are feeling, what you are thinking etc.. You can also write all this down of course. Start a journal and document it all. I look back on 1.5 year old videos and am amazed.

5. SIM = LIVE. Period. You have to agree and not cheat yourself that if you click that mouse on SIM, then you just clicked it live. That is why an online journal w/ recording is good (that is why I do it) because it keeps me honest. Yes, there were many days of me not wanting to post.

6. Keep a spreadsheet or tally of your wins/losses, etc.. This will help you understand where you are at statistically and whether you should be moving ahead or not.

7. Learn EFT's, they work, and you don't even have to agree they work! haha... Google "Emotional Freedom Technique's"

8. Discover or understand if anything is distracting you. How can you make the system your own, what could be causing the differences with your trading that are presented in your physical world. For example, I listen to meditation music while I trade. I sometimes meditate prior, and I never open stressful email prior to trading or whatever. No conversations or anything that taxes me prior.

That is all I could think of... Good luck.

Great advice. I am close (couple weeks) of going live. I've read "Trading In The Zone" and keep a spreadsheet of my trades, both live and market replay. I struggle each day with lack of concentration, BONEHEAD mistakes like chasing the trade if the market is already trending after what would have been my setup had I been in front of the chart.

Can you tell me what software you use to record your live trade journal? I think that's a great idea.

Thanks in advance.

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  #146 (permalink)
 esplorare 
Phoenix AZ
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Trading: oil, gold, silver, selected currency futures and grains
 
Posts: 6 since Jan 2011
Thanks: 1 given, 17 received

JWH - The struggles you mention are not unusual, even for traders with many years of experience. In fact, I'm not sure those kinds of things ever disappear completely, but I do think you can get a grip on them over time. The concentration thing is rough; especially when your scalping and you need to focus intently on those screens for long periods of time looking for setups. It's a big problem for me. When I can't find good setups I tend to drift and lose my focus. I try to make a point of not staying at the monitors for too long a period without getting up and leaving the room for while. I also give myself a specific time period to make live trades, usually pre-market to NYSE open, and about 2 hours thereafter. I have come to terms with making as few trades a day as possible to hit a reasonable daily dollar amount goal, allowing only for the best setups. If time passes without finding any, I let it go for the day.This is just me. Others may have different ways of trading. The one thing about this business is there is no one way to do things. It's really about finding your own style, after you have tackled the technical basicsand have arrived at a few reliable setups that produce a high percentage of winners. The psychology part of it is an ongoing journey from my view. All the best with your live work.

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 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
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jwhtrades View Post
Great advice. I am close (couple weeks) of going live. I've read "Trading In The Zone" and keep a spreadsheet of my trades, both live and market replay. I struggle each day with lack of concentration, BONEHEAD mistakes like chasing the trade if the market is already trending after what would have been my setup had I been in front of the chart.

Can you tell me what software you use to record your live trade journal? I think that's a great idea.

Thanks in advance.

Camtasia is good, and if you like free, I like Hypercam2

Also there are a few posts on the subject here at Big Mike, so there are plenty to choose from. I think Cjbooth also has an online one you can record.

Good luck.

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  #148 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Trading: forex
 
Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 23 received

Thanks for the advice. I have a small update: I switched to mini sizes and I've had majority winners. Yesterday was 3 mini trades, all winners. The "loss" I have is not that big, so once I get back to full lot size, the loss is no big impediment. I think it's more confidence than anything else. Looking back, I should not have demoed for more than 2 weeks. I should have just started with micros and increased the size after a defined milestone like profit or number of winners.

About Mt4 -vs- Ninja. Ninja is BIG, bloated, and expensive. Almost every forex broker in the entire world uses Metratrader and they pass it to the customers at no additional cost. On top of that, for Mt4 users, it's very easy to show off our results, since there are many sites that link in with the MT4 publisher. If people have great results, which are easy to share with the world, and it would be marketing for him.

This field is saturated with snake oil salesman, and people selling systems for lots of money. On top of that, you have competitors that jump onto member boards and post negative comments about the competition. So who can average retail trader believe? Live results!!!

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  #149 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Trading: forex
 
Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 23 received

Espolrare: Me too-- few trades as possible AND dollar profit target per day work best for me. Before I realized that I had been doing that in demo, I was overtrading way too much.

So everybody, realizing that getting the FT indicators on MT4 was about like winning the lottery, I downloaded Ninjatrader and installed the indicators. But they don't look like Roger's screen in the webinars? Do the indicators really paint the trade names on the screen? I didn't see trade name abbreviations on the screen.

I'm here because I'm a fan of divergence.I'm not so good at recognizing the extended and hidden divergences, and a program that spots those could really come in handy. Does anybody know if that indicator is free or part of the proprietary package?

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  #150 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninja
Trading: gc, cl, tf, 6e
 
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Posts: 512 since Aug 2011


acbrasil View Post
Roger, I got your email the other day where you said that you made $2,000 demo-dollars trading the CL. I wish that you would make the indicators for Metatrader, since most brokers don't offer NinjaTrader for free. (I tried to install Ninja for a free trial, but it gave me numerous problems. Plus, it's bloated.)

Moreover, I'd love to see some stats on Metatrader to Ninjatrader usage statistics. I bet there's tons more people using Metatrader than Ninja.

I'm asking because when I traded demo for 3 months and did fabulously well. It was like a demo-dollar printing machine for me-- literally thousands per day!! The screens are the exactly the same with the live account-- I had them side by side to compare. Then I switched to real money and I'm already negative. The problem was overtrading. Now I'm a little apprehensive. Got any advice anybody?

generally speaking, those who are in the money, won't have time nor desire to talk with others about their dollars amount profitability. and those who have time to quack quack about how much they made a day, are also generally in the hope mode.

most trading on sim provided by many brokers are at the mercy of the house who provides free services to entice potential future traders by fine tuning their programs to accommodate your trades and orders.... perhaps you are one of those who benefits many ways from their free services?

when you are confident enough to think going on live, do yourself a big favor by contacting signal providers such as esign, ninja et al who also provide free trial period.... and have their live charts next to your current charts....

and sim from live chart from these providers.... to ascertain if there is any real difference in any significant factors.... ok?

what i heard too many times over the past years was the sim traders were very successful in their sim mode and each were very confident in their own trading methods and styles....

and the advisors on line were very helpful and right on target on their advices when on sim....

and most, if not all, eventually burnt up their acct within 3 short months, if they are lucky to last that long....

if you like, post your charts whatever they are here at bg.... and allow the more matured and aged traders.... have a look at what you have and help you along toward profitability....

if you do that, i can almost guarantee that you won't lose all your total initial investment, whatever amount that might be.... K?

good luck and have fun trading. watch out for those salemen and saleladies hiding in profitable trader appearances. also if you like, bring those sale pitches on line here, there are many who could spot who is who right away.... K?

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  #151 (permalink)
 Hapster 
San Diego, California
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Felton
Trading: CL, GC
 
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Posts: 141 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 40 given, 81 received

No, you won't see the trade "names" in any of the free indicators that Roger puts up here in Big Mike's. Those are proprietary and you will have to become a Felton student to enjoy those -- and I do mean "enjoy." Becoming a Felton student is a "great trade" in my opinion.

H

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  #152 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninja
Trading: gc, cl, tf, 6e
 
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Posts: 512 since Aug 2011


Hapster View Post
No, you won't see the trade "names" in any of the free indicators that Roger puts up here in Big Mike's. Those are proprietary and you will have to become a Felton student to enjoy those -- and I do mean "enjoy." Becoming a Felton student is a "great trade" in my opinion.

H

hi there

1--incidentally, how long have you been with 'roger', pls? and

2--what are some of the benefits of becoming a paid member of felton school, pls?

3--would a paid member be able to trade profitably and consistently by following 'roger' classroom, and 'enjoy' as you put it, the fruits of their labor in real money.... pls?

just becoming curious.

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  #153 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Trading: forex
 
Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
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nakachalet View Post
generally speaking, those who are in the money, won't have time nor desire to talk with others about their dollars amount profitability. and those who have time to quack quack about how much they made a day, are also generally in the hope mode.

I totally disagree with you on this. There's some "providers" that show copies of their live statements. But in the FOREX crowd, sites like mt4stats, fxstat and myfxbook are very common. I have seen stats for some people who have made 50% for the last 6 months manually trading. They aren't afraid to show off.
It's a way to show how many pips someone made without having to disclose account numbers. True, someone may not want to TELL YOU how they did it though...

Best of Luck!

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  #154 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninja
Trading: gc, cl, tf, 6e
 
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acbrasil View Post
I totally disagree with you on this. There's some "providers" that show copies of their live statements. But in the FOREX crowd, sites like mt4stats, fxstat and myfxbook are very common. I have seen stats for some people who have made 50% for the last 6 months manually trading. They aren't afraid to show off.
It's a way to show how many pips someone made without having to disclose account numbers. True, someone may not want to TELL YOU how they did it though...

Best of Luck!

hi acbrasil

your references are dead ended. mind activate them, pls.

....There's some "providers" that show copies of their live statements. LOVE TO READ MORE

....But in the FOREX crowd, sites like mt4stats, fxstat and myfxbook are very common. I have seen stats for some people who have made 50% for the last 6 months manually trading. They aren't afraid to show off. LOVE TO READ, WATCH AND LEARN MORE FROM THEM

....It's a way to show how many pips someone made without having to disclose account numbers. True, someone may not want to TELL YOU how they did it though... LOVE TO LEARN HOW TO DISCLOSE VERIFIABLE PROFIT WITHOUT DISCLOSURE

by the way, am not questioning you nor doubting you, OK, acbrasil. apparently you know lots more than i.... but am a willing learner, K? and like to experience many enjoyable things in life myself. and thx much.

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  #155 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Trading: forex
 
Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
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First, providers that show statements:
1) Larry Levin (futures)
2) Virtue of Selfish Investing (ETFs and stocks)

I don't pay for their services, but I have seen photocopies of their trading statements online. You can probably do a google search and find trading statements on their websites. I don't trust photocopies too much though, but at least it's a step in what I see as the right direction.

Nak..., you really need to get familiar with MT4.
MT4 has a publisher that FTPs all account data to the statistics-server. There is also an "investor" password that can interface your MT4 client with the stats server. You can basically choose what people can and can't see, like deposit and withdrawal amounts, and account numbers. You don't have to show them that stuff. But history and PIPs, you can show, no problem.

Maybe it's my lack of inexperience, but I really don't know why Roger does this. I know that people like to say "We love to teach.. " yeah yeah. I am also a teacher (in a different area) and I got so sick of teaching lazy people who didn't really care so I ended up PAYING someone else to teach them for me. If I were him, I'd trade a large number of contracts per day and just go live on the beach somewhere.

In another forum, people were trying to give the same argument about TI. But if you do the calculation on just 2 or 3 new people per day x $5000, their calculation showed $750,000 per year just to talk to people for a couple of hours 5 days a week for a few months. I gotta say, then I think it's easier to be a teacher! I don't know how much Roger charges, but if he REALLY likes being a teacher, the amount would be a fraction of this.

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  #156 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
Experience: Master
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acbrasil View Post
First, providers that show statements:
1) Larry Levin (futures)
2) Virtue of Selfish Investing (ETFs and stocks)

I don't pay for their services, but I have seen photocopies of their trading statements online. You can probably do a google search and find trading statements on their websites. I don't trust photocopies too much though, but at least it's a step in what I see as the right direction.

Nak..., you really need to get familiar with MT4.
MT4 has a publisher that FTPs all account data to the statistics-server. There is also an "investor" password that can interface your MT4 client with the stats server. You can basically choose what people can and can't see, like deposit and withdrawal amounts, and account numbers. You don't have to show them that stuff. But history and PIPs, you can show, no problem.

Maybe it's my lack of inexperience, but I really don't know why Roger does this. I know that people like to say "We love to teach.. " yeah yeah. I am also a teacher (in a different area) and I got so sick of teaching lazy people who didn't really care so I ended up PAYING someone else to teach them for me. If I were him, I'd trade a large number of contracts per day and just go live on the beach somewhere.

In another forum, people were trying to give the same argument about TI. But if you do the calculation on just 2 or 3 new people per day x $5000, their calculation showed $750,000 per year just to talk to people for a couple of hours 5 days a week for a few months. I gotta say, then I think it's easier to be a teacher! I don't know how much Roger charges, but if he REALLY likes being a teacher, the amount would be a fraction of this.

hi acbrasil

i did go to the site.

the attached is self-explanatory.

it is not really a reliable nor dependable or verifiable disclosure at all.

IT IS MORE LIKE A SHAM concocted by some bunch of greedy traders, imho. sorry.

again it is not you ok, it is the doing of those wannabe rather.

and may i restate my point, there are ample winning traders on board here but they are not quacking....

and i sure hope after this, you would be able to find some other more reliable sources of reading, K? happy and profitable trading, my trading friend.

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  #157 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Trading: forex
 
Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
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Nak, like I said ""I don't pay for their services,""
Amazing though.. If I had a dime for every trading education provider...

Nobody wants to dig for gold; they only want to sell the shovels.

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  #158 (permalink)
 Hapster 
San Diego, California
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Felton
Trading: CL, GC
 
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nakachalet View Post
hi there

1--incidentally, how long have you been with 'roger', pls? and

2--what are some of the benefits of becoming a paid member of felton school, pls?

3--would a paid member be able to trade profitably and consistently by following 'roger' classroom, and 'enjoy' as you put it, the fruits of their labor in real money.... pls?

just becoming curious.

1) I've only been with Felton for about two months -- with a South Pacific vacation in the middle there for three weeks, but I've been trading for several years on an off -- not as successfully as I have been recently of late since trading the Felton system.

2) The main benefits are trading with a group of successful traders and watching their styles. I have a regular career as a freelance court reporter that takes up a lot of my time so I find the Felton training concise. Being as a past life of mine was as a computer programmer, I'm picking up very quickly how to best use the Divergence Pro along with NinjaTrader to find my own personal "style" to trade the markets with more success than I have in the past.

3) I think a "paid" member definitely can get a lot of benefit from the Felton system. Sure, Roger's been trading for many years and has a helluva lot more candles under his belt than the average trader does, but by following his rules and using his system, I think much success can be achieved. Why don't you sign up and come into the trading room for awhile and check things out.

H

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  #159 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Trading: 6E, CL, GC
 
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acbrasil View Post
Espolrare: Me too-- few trades as possible AND dollar profit target per day work best for me. Before I realized that I had been doing that in demo, I was overtrading way too much.

So everybody, realizing that getting the FT indicators on MT4 was about like winning the lottery, I downloaded Ninjatrader and installed the indicators. But they don't look like Roger's screen in the webinars? Do the indicators really paint the trade names on the screen? I didn't see trade name abbreviations on the screen.

I'm here because I'm a fan of divergence.I'm not so good at recognizing the extended and hidden divergences, and a program that spots those could really come in handy. Does anybody know if that indicator is free or part of the proprietary package?

Felton Trading has a special friendship with all futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members and we freely share many of the techniques and indicators that we use. Even better, we allow Elite members unlimited free access to our Live Trading Room so they can ask all the questions they wish and get straight answers with live market examples.

We do this because we have nothing to hide and a heck of a lot of things to share. I think a relative handfull of futures.io (formerly BMT)'ers have taken advantage of this generous offer and, as far as I know, nobody was disappointed judging by the kudos.

Our coders have invested 8 to 16 hour days for over two years in the development of our DivPro software and we're just not able to give that away. DivPro is what puts the signal labels with warnings on the chart for you. But it does so much more than just put up signal entries. It's performs a long list of functions including signal anticipation and identification, signal filtering, visual and audio alerts, and a very sophisticated backtesting capability that produces very realistic results. If I listed all that DivPro does, it would take up the next 3 pages. I think that, just by observing the software, you guys might get some ideas to improve your own trading system...ya neverr know.

We invite all futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members to stop in and check us out. No one at Felton Trading will contact you for anything except to answer your questions.

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  #160 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
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The killer though is the $$$. Sure, I would love to have to have the indicators, but it's not cheap. Moreover, on top of that, one has to buy Ninja, which increases the cost even more.

I wish someone here could really say how their results have been-- if they are like Roger's in the trading room. But it seems like all his members are tight-lipped about it.

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  #161 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
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Broker: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Trading: 6E, CL, GC
 
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acbrasil View Post
The killer though is the $$$. Sure, I would love to have to have the indicators, but it's not cheap. Moreover, on top of that, one has to buy Ninja, which increases the cost even more.

I wish someone here could really say how their results have been-- if they are like Roger's in the trading room. But it seems like all his members are tight-lipped about it.

About a year ago, Dr. John Kepler (professor) wrote an excellent article in Active Trader magazine titled, "A Good Trading Education is Hard to Find". I was impressed because it really drove home the fact that traders trading without proper training and knowledge are sunk from the get go. They blow up their accounts over and over making the same mistakes trade after trade, year after year. But they balk at investing in knowledge, education and close, personal, dedicated mentorship. He also points out that the most expensive trading knowledge free. He's got a point.

I'm not saying that with enough time, say, 15 or 20 years or so, and serious capitalization while you reinvent and overcome all the mistakes and pitfalls yourself, that you couldn't become a darn good trader. It's happened. It's just odd that people will spend megabucks learning income producing skills...from welding to medicine to commercial aviation. But they refuse to invest the price of a clunker used car on trading knowlege and essential trading mentorship.

It doesn't matter where you get your knowledge, training and mentorship as long as you get it and it works for you. You can get a lot of what you need here at futures.io (formerly BMT). Lots of good stuff here.

Addressing acbrasil's comment, I humbly request that you come into my room and openly ask the members how they are doing. It's an open forum where everyone sees everyone else and what they are saying. They'll be glad to answer your inquiry honestly and completely. As I'm writing this, here's an email I just received from one of my students, Noel. Some of you futures.io (formerly BMT) Elites may know Noel or be a friend of his from the room. Here's what his email said:

Hey Roger
Hope you guys had a good week. I didn't get to spend a lot of time in the room but had decent stats for the week.
39 for 45 +192 ticks
Noel

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


Understand, Noel's a darn good trader, for sure. But when he came to me he was a lumberjack...literally. He didn't know a chart from a can of fruit cocktail. As a trader, he was awful and he'll be the first to admit it. I spent many evening sessions with him and over months he evolved into a trader that I'd trust with my own account anytime. Now, does this prove that you too will do well? Absolutely not! I know that's probably not what you expected me to say, AC, but it's an honest answer. You may do well learning from someone, but please don't think the secret is in a trading system itself.

Personally, I think it's this rotten stinking industry that's made traders think this way. You can't open a trade magazine, surf the Internet or attend a tradeshow without being bombarded with get-rich-overnight trading systems and indicators. It's created a mass of "trader zombies" wandering around aimlessly looking for "the holyfriggingrail" when all they have to do is look in the mirror. Would you believe anyone who said that if you bought their golf clubs you'd make lots of money as a pro golfer virtually overnight? Then why do traders believe those scumbags claims??

The secret is in you, my friend. The answer is knowledge, training and mentorship and how hard you are willing to work.

Most traders need mentorship...and lots of it. From novices to seasoned veterans, we all must never stop learning and honing our craft. By mentorship, I'm not talking about a forum chat or a pep talk on Skype. Most traders need a trading professional who can also teach whom they can reach anytime they need for as long as they need...evenings, weekends, holidays. When the market has spanked you to the point where you have to trade standing up, you probably need help. Traders can easily derail and get in trouble when they're feeling confused, frustrated, panicked and angry...and still trying to trade. Close personal guidance on a daily basis is very important to work past the hurdles and keep on track thru the learning curve. They should call it the "learning zig zag" because it's not a line that always points up. A good mentor can't prevent the "lows" but they can help insure that they are "higher lows".

Becomming a successful trader goes way beyond what trading system you use. Some of you will get that and some won't. It's why one trader consistently loses and another consistently wins TRADING THE SAME SYSTEM! Knowing the difference - what's that knowledge worth? What's it worth to have a professional trader/trainer at your beck and call for the rest of his life and not charge you for the sessions? Just something for you guys to think about when you consider what's actually involved when someone charges a fee.

Look, there are a lot of learning options out there for you. If you don't want to learn by making all the mistakes yourself and you're willing to pay someone competent to help get you where where you want to go, for gosh sakes don't let price be your measuring stick. That's my point here. There are courses and systems out there charging $7500 to over $20,000 that aren't worth what's at the bottom of my birdcage. Cheap and freebie stuff can be beneficial but it's never a complete "package".

To be successful at this difficult game, you've got to know what it's going to take. And there will always be a cost...be it in knowledge, training and mentorship...or one heck of a long time investment going it alone. Ask Big Mike sometime if his own success was the result of hard work, study and practice or simply the result of hitting on a winning trading system alone. I should write a series here about "The Mindset of the Misguided Trader". Sure make for interesting reading.

Didn't mean to go off on a rant,

Roger

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  #162 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
Experience: Master
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Trading: gc, cl, tf, 6e
 
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rogerf View Post
....Addressing acbrasil's comment, I humbly request that you come into my room and openly ask the members how they are doing. It's an open forum where everyone sees everyone else and what they are saying. They'll be glad to answer your inquiry honestly and completely. As I'm writing this, here's an email I just received from one of my students, Noel. Some of you futures.io (formerly BMT) Elites may know Noel or be a friend of his from the room. Here's what his email said:


The secret is in you, my friend. The answer is knowledge, training and mentorship and how hard you are willing to work.

.... where you have to trade standing up, you probably need help.


Roger

....where you have to trade standing up, you probably need help....

hi roger

just so you know, i am one of those traders who very much like to trade STANDING UP....

not only that i would stand up and trade about 30% of the time, i would also do the oriental ti-chi to keep psychologically and physiologically alert, fit and ready at the same time....

just waiting for the greatest moment.... when all four green stars in any one of my trading monitors would lighten up vertically for the bingo run.... LOL

for the last two sessions watching you trade last week, you showed that you could trade profitably and your setups also appear to be interestingly looking and appealing, especially for newbies.... however as we know well, constant chatting regardless of what the contents entail.... are annoying and distracting to live traders.... just my one trader opinion, K?

will see you in action again.... on and off.... when i could look away from my screens....

also, you offer much more than most vendors that i came across.... thx on behalf of the many silent learners in your room as well....

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  #163 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: metatrader
Trading: forex
 
Posts: 60 since Jul 2011
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rogerf View Post
About a year ago, Dr. John Kepler (professor) wrote an excellent article in Active Trader magazine titled, "A Good Trading Education is Hard to Find". I was impressed because it really drove home the fact that traders trading without proper training and knowledge are sunk from the get go. They blow up their accounts over and over making the same mistakes trade after trade, year after year. But they balk at investing in knowledge, education and close, personal, dedicated mentorship. He also points out that the most expensive trading knowledge free. He's got a point.

I'm not saying that with enough time, say, 15 or 20 years or so, and serious capitalization while you reinvent and overcome all the mistakes and pitfalls yourself, that you couldn't become a darn good trader. It's happened. It's just odd that people will spend megabucks learning income producing skills...from welding to medicine to commercial aviation. But they refuse to invest the price of a clunker used car on trading knowlege and essential trading mentorship.

It doesn't matter where you get your knowledge, training and mentorship as long as you get it and it works for you. You can get a lot of what you need here at futures.io (formerly BMT). Lots of good stuff here.

Addressing acbrasil's comment, I humbly request that you come into my room and openly ask the members how they are doing. It's an open forum where everyone sees everyone else and what they are saying. They'll be glad to answer your inquiry honestly and completely. As I'm writing this, here's an email I just received from one of my students, Noel. Some of you futures.io (formerly BMT) Elites may know Noel or be a friend of his from the room. Here's what his email said:

Hey Roger
Hope you guys had a good week. I didn't get to spend a lot of time in the room but had decent stats for the week.
39 for 45 +192 ticks
Noel

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


Understand, Noel's a darn good trader, for sure. But when he came to me he was a lumberjack...literally. He didn't know a chart from a can of fruit cocktail. As a trader, he was awful and he'll be the first to admit it. I spent many evening sessions with him and over months he evolved into a trader that I'd trust with my own account anytime. Now, does this prove that you too will do well? Absolutely not! I know that's probably not what you expected me to say, AC, but it's an honest answer. You may do well learning from someone, but please don't think the secret is in a trading system itself.

Personally, I think it's this rotten stinking industry that's made traders think this way. You can't open a trade magazine, surf the Internet or attend a tradeshow without being bombarded with get-rich-overnight trading systems and indicators. It's created a mass of "trader zombies" wandering around aimlessly looking for "the holyfriggingrail" when all they have to do is look in the mirror. Would you believe anyone who said that if you bought their golf clubs you'd make lots of money as a pro golfer virtually overnight? Then why do traders believe those scumbags claims??

The secret is in you, my friend. The answer is knowledge, training and mentorship and how hard you are willing to work.

Most traders need mentorship...and lots of it. From novices to seasoned veterans, we all must never stop learning and honing our craft. By mentorship, I'm not talking about a forum chat or a pep talk on Skype. Most traders need a trading professional who can also teach whom they can reach anytime they need for as long as they need...evenings, weekends, holidays. When the market has spanked you to the point where you have to trade standing up, you probably need help. Traders can easily derail and get in trouble when they're feeling confused, frustrated, panicked and angry...and still trying to trade. Close personal guidance on a daily basis is very important to work past the hurdles and keep on track thru the learning curve. They should call it the "learning zig zag" because it's not a line that always points up. A good mentor can't prevent the "lows" but they can help insure that they are "higher lows".

Becomming a successful trader goes way beyond what trading system you use. Some of you will get that and some won't. It's why one trader consistently loses and another consistently wins TRADING THE SAME SYSTEM! Knowing the difference - what's that knowledge worth? What's it worth to have a professional trader/trainer at your beck and call for the rest of his life and not charge you for the sessions? Just something for you guys to think about when you consider what's actually involved when someone charges a fee.

Look, there are a lot of learning options out there for you. If you don't want to learn by making all the mistakes yourself and you're willing to pay someone competent to help get you where where you want to go, for gosh sakes don't let price be your measuring stick. That's my point here. There are courses and systems out there charging $7500 to over $20,000 that aren't worth what's at the bottom of my birdcage. Cheap and freebie stuff can be beneficial but it's never a complete "package".

To be successful at this difficult game, you've got to know what it's going to take. And there will always be a cost...be it in knowledge, training and mentorship...or one heck of a long time investment going it alone. Ask Big Mike sometime if his own success was the result of hard work, study and practice or simply the result of hitting on a winning trading system alone. I should write a series here about "The Mindset of the Misguided Trader". Sure make for interesting reading.

Didn't mean to go off on a rant,

Roger

Hi Roger, thanks for taking the time to reply. Yes, you are very right. There are a million get-rich-quick schemes out there and because of this, any legitimate provider may be automatically denounced as a snake oil salesman in public forums. (50 pages of Google Searches revealed a few comments along those lines for your sevices). The problem is that live results are hard to come by so no one can trust anybody. Metatrader definitely has ninja beat in the area of results publishing. Sites like Mt4stats show the good and the bad. No way around it. If someone blows an account, they have to create another account.

I already understand divergences quite well and enjoy them when they show up. What interests me the most is the computer program (your indicators) which helps the brain for trade management. And how you use a whopping 2 contracts to get the results that you do.

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  #164 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Trading: 6E, CL, GC
 
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Posts: 132 since Apr 2010


acbrasil View Post
Hi Roger, thanks for taking the time to reply. Yes, you are very right. There are a million get-rich-quick schemes out there and because of this, any legitimate provider may be automatically denounced as a snake oil salesman in public forums. (50 pages of Google Searches revealed a few comments along those lines for your sevices). The problem is that live results are hard to come by so no one can trust anybody. Metatrader definitely has ninja beat in the area of results publishing. Sites like Mt4stats show the good and the bad. No way around it. If someone blows an account, they have to create another account.

I already understand divergences quite well and enjoy them when they show up. What interests me the most is the computer program (your indicators) which helps the brain for trade management. And how you use a whopping 2 contracts to get the results that you do.

Yeah, AC, we've been through the Snake Oil Salesmen gauntlet a few times, too....just not by anyone who has ever been an actual student. You'll find a few of them in futures.io (formerly BMT). It's ok though...better traders be too skeptical than too gullible.

There are a number of ways that trading system hawkers can demonstrate the effectiveness of their wares. All but one can be faked.

First, they can make up some numbers and claim them as true. You see that all over the place...."Our traders are getting over 400% ROI using our amazing Madoff Made Easy trading system....." Gimme a break.

Then there's testimonials. Time was, people believed in testimonials. I think they sold a lot of Geratol and Liver pills that way.

Most traders got wise and thumbed their nose at testimonials and outrageous claims. But a few suckers still remain and keep them in business. So, the ONLY foolproof way that the snake oil people could be stopped is by making them show actual results, right? Think again....

It's actually quite easy to produce actual valid trading results where a trading system is shown to never lose. This can make you millions if you have no scruples. Here's how. Open, say, 16 trading accounts at various brokers. On 8 of them, take a long position in a market that trends a lot and on 8 go short in the same market. At some point, you will have made 400 to 600% on your original account on half of your trades and lost that much on the other 8 accounts. You'll need to be well capitalized so that your brokers don't close out your position on the losing 8 accounts but, don't worry, you won't lose anything but a few commissions.

Now you have 8 accounts that have performed really well and 8 that didn't. Close out the 8 stinkers. Of the 8 winners, go long on 4 accounts and short on the other 4. Stay in your positions until you have made another 400 to 600%...actually, you can set your own goal. Want to make 1000%, just stay in till you get there.

You will have 4 winning accounts and 4 losing for a net gain of zero dollars. Go long on 2 and short on 2.....then long on 1 and short on 1. The entire exercise seems pointless because you don't make any money...actually lose a little in commissions. But what you will have in your grubby little hand is a trading account that shows a humongous amount of profit and no losing trades. You'll have another one that probably did pretty well too with just one losing trade.

With those two pieces of paper you can now call yourself an honest to goodness Trading Guru. You'll make millions bilking traders who will think they found the Holy Grail. Traders will flock to your booth at the trade shows and they'll trip over themselves getting their wallets out to buy your Can't Lose Trading System. And, it absolutely can't lose because it comes complete with a notarized copy of your actual trading results!

Get my point, AC? Even actual trading results can be a scam. The ONLY thing that can't be faked is actual live market trading. No smoke, no mirrors and no pony. It either consistently wins or it doesn't.

But understand, anytime you witness consistently good trading results, don't believe for a second that it's the trading system that's doing it. It's always the trader behind the system. To do what he does you have to know what he knows.

Roger

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  #165 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninja
Trading: gc, cl, tf, 6e
 
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rogerf View Post
Yeah, AC, we've been through the Snake Oil Salesmen gauntlet a few times, too....just not by anyone who has ever been an actual student. You'll find a few of them in futures.io (formerly BMT). It's ok though...better traders be too skeptical than too gullible.

There are a number of ways that trading system hawkers can demonstrate the effectiveness of their wares. All but one can be faked.

First, they can make up some numbers and claim them as true. You see that all over the place...."Our traders are getting over 400% ROI using our amazing Madoff Made Easy trading system....." Gimme a break.

Then there's testimonials. Time was, people believed in testimonials. I think they sold a lot of Geratol and Liver pills that way.

Most traders got wise and thumbed their nose at testimonials and outrageous claims. But a few suckers still remain and keep them in business. So, the ONLY foolproof way that the snake oil people could be stopped is by making them show actual results, right? Think again....

It's actually quite easy to produce actual valid trading results where a trading system is shown to never lose. This can make you millions if you have no scruples. Here's how. Open, say, 16 trading accounts at various brokers. On 8 of them, take a long position in a market that trends a lot and on 8 go short in the same market. At some point, you will have made 400 to 600% on your original account on half of your trades and lost that much on the other 8 accounts. You'll need to be well capitalized so that your brokers don't close out your position on the losing 8 accounts but, don't worry, you won't lose anything but a few commissions.

Now you have 8 accounts that have performed really well and 8 that didn't. Close out the 8 stinkers. Of the 8 winners, go long on 4 accounts and short on the other 4. Stay in your positions until you have made another 400 to 600%...actually, you can set your own goal. Want to make 1000%, just stay in till you get there.

You will have 4 winning accounts and 4 losing for a net gain of zero dollars. Go long on 2 and short on 2.....then long on 1 and short on 1. The entire exercise seems pointless because you don't make any money...actually lose a little in commissions. But what you will have in your grubby little hand is a trading account that shows a humongous amount of profit and no losing trades. You'll have another one that probably did pretty well too with just one losing trade.

With those two pieces of paper you can now call yourself an honest to goodness Trading Guru. You'll make millions bilking traders who will think they found the Holy Grail. Traders will flock to your booth at the trade shows and they'll trip over themselves getting their wallets out to buy your Can't Lose Trading System. And, it absolutely can't lose because it comes complete with a notarized copy of your actual trading results!

Get my point, AC? Even actual trading results can be a scam. The ONLY thing that can't be faked is actual live market trading. No smoke, no mirrors and no pony. It either consistently wins or it doesn't.

But understand, anytime you witness consistently good trading results, don't believe for a second that it's the trading system that's doing it. It's always the trader behind the system. To do what he does you have to know what he knows.

Roger

hi again, rogerf:

thx for presenting an interesting theory of 16 acct.

since 99% of us here are not proprietors of anything, so it is a kind of difficult to fathom your wisdom in trading theories and practices and such, would you kindly for these traders benefit, exemplify in further details the theory of 16 acct, pls.

as a simple minded trader among numerous learned and more experienced traders here, i was just wondering if there is an over simplification in your postulation some here....?

to subdivide the 16 acct into two groups of 8, and each 8 represents long and the other 8 to represent short....; then from these two groups of 8, further subdivide them into 2 groups of 4, then 2 groups of 2.... so on and so forth....;

in terms of mathematics, your postulation appears entirely probable and agreeable,

but in terms of practicalities and realities in trading, it is conceivably difficult to reconcile the two into one practical and logical conclusion and summation, that....

in order to attain per your quote--But what you will have in your grubby little hand is a trading account that shows a humongous amount of profit and no losing trades. You'll have another one that probably did pretty well too with just one losing trade.

With those two pieces of paper you can now call yourself an honest to goodness Trading Guru. You'll make millions bilking traders who will think they found the Holy Grail....

and in order for anyone to attain such theoretical ultimate achievement.... the longs group would always have to be consistently profitable, or that the other shorts group would likewise always have to be consistently unprofitable.... or vice versa....; is such an attainable feat in practical terms and realities under present trading conditions, pls?

perhaps, you could help me understand the inconsistency and irreconcilability in my own little easily confused mind.... which i would be very appreciative indeed.

this is in no way a challenge to you or your trading ability or anything like that, ok? it is just that because of my own simple mindedness, i could not completely comprehend your entire theoretical framework, OK? thx rogerf for your generosity to us members of bm community.

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  #166 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
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Hi Roger, thanks again for taking the time to reply. Please don't misinterpret what I was saying. I was not calling you a snakeoil salesman. There are some forums out there that basically label every vendor a snake oil salesman.

1- In the 50 something pages of google, I found a forum where it appears as though a student was speaking well of you. After about 5 pages of people saying "anyone who charges is no good" basically, the moderator said it looked like a solicitaiton and closed the thread. I don't agree with that too much.. but anyhow.

2- In another forum, they said that you may achieve those results, but that may be you with 12 years of experience. A student probably won't be able to get those same sort of returns.

3- Someone also said that they studied with you at your former employer. When a trade didn't work out, they would say "ahh.. but it was something else..." There was always a special nuance of why the trade worked against them or only for the moderator and not for the students.

So really, my main concern is #2 and #3. Do you have any idea what the type of return, or performance of your students have? If not, why don't some of the students come here to give their experiences. If they are in fact doing well, staying quiet does nothing to help the person that helped them.

Just so you know, in my case, to get your returns I take about double the risk. That's why I'm asking you lots of questions about your course.

Best Regards

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  #167 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
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"But understand, anytime you witness consistently good trading results, don't believe for a second that it's the trading system that's doing it. It's always the trader behind the system. To do what he does you have to know what he knows.

Roger"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" to know what he knows" is a tall order and but doesn't address the situation of talent.. Though this is often construed as negative, complaining etc and not positive thinking, the truth in the world I have seen is that everyone doesn't have talent for everything despite taking numerous instruction, observation, positive thinking..
Like, I can't understand how my spouse can screw up a PC so bad,, is she stupid, dumb?,, no just doesn't understand and has no PC talent (but they didn't ask her that before they sold her a PC!)..... Think u can write a sentence about ur own xxxxxxxxxxxx, can't u?

Other then the Dennis "turtles", I know of no other person who attempted to "qualify talent" before even bothering to train them.. Anyone been turned away from a trading room before they got ur money?

Its lots of fun thinking u can sink that 10' putt or hit that 250 yds drive consistantly but for 95% never happens (put in ur own wannado xxxxx)... Guess there just is not enough instruction and tips out there,, dumb us!

I'm waiting for the book..:"Winning UGLY at trading", since all that pretty stuff never worked for me.
I always think a market is too high, and short,, or think its too low and buy ... works "almost" everytime!

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  #168 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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gg80108 View Post
"to know what he knows" is a tall order and but doesn't address the situation of talent.. Though this is often construed as negative, complaining etc and not positive thinking, the truth in the world I have seen is that everyone doesn't have talent for everything despite taking numerous instruction, observation, positive thinking..
Like, I can't understand how my spouse can screw up a PC so bad,, is she stupid, dumb?,, no just doesn't understand and has no PC talent (but they didn't ask her that before they sold her a PC!)..... Think u can write a sentence about ur own xxxxxxxxxxxx, can't u?

Other then the Dennis "turtles", I know of no other person who attempted to "qualify talent" before even bothering to train them.. Anyone been turned away from a trading room before they got ur money?

Its lots of fun thinking u can sink that 10' putt or hit that 250 yds drive consistantly but for 95% never happens (put in ur own wannado xxxxx)... Guess there just is not enough instruction and tips out there,, dumb us!

I'm waiting for the book..:"Winning UGLY at trading", since all that pretty stuff never worked for me.
I always think a market is too high, and short,, or think its too low and buy ... works "almost" everytime!


I doubt that many people are very talented at things they have no interest in. My wife couldn't care less about defragging the hard drive or running a virus check. She darn sure wouldn't make it as a PC nerd.

People can become proficient at things they are interested in...such as golf. But talent must come from passion. There's a big difference between interest and passion.

As a golfer, I just never could care much about knocking a little white ball into trees and lakes. But, if I had an interest, I'd probably get out there with some friends and practice. But would I ever make it to the big money tournaments? Nope. I could never get passionate about the sport.

Trading is basically the same except there's no physical coordination to develop. It's all mental. Trading profit is the hardest easy money you'll ever make. Not everyone is cut out to be a trader. Instead of physical strength or coordination, trading requires patience, focus, confidence and discipline (just to name a few) at extraordinary levels. Those aren't talents, they're human characteristics that take extreme effort to develop to the level needed to be a good trader. Most wannabe's just don't have the drive. They have just enough interest to get into trouble.

These characteristics can be developed but not if a person only has a passing interest in doing so. It takes passionate dedication. If a trader isn't passionate about trading, talent will never exist. An amazing level of talent can be achieved, but it never comes easy.

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I would agree that trading is a skill. Some people can and some people can't.

Whilst there are probably characterisitics that help in trading, just as there are in shot-putting. We should not ignore the fact that trading itself is a skill and not just something you can do because of a collection of matching attributes.

It's very nice to have a checklist of attributes and see that you have all those and so will make a good trader. The thing is though 'good trader' should be an attribute too.

There are various trading crutches that people rely on in an attempt to become skilled at trading. These usually come in some form of handing over the process of making trading decisions to something or someone else. The internet is full of offers to relieve you of this burden.

Whilst you are looking for someone or something to tell you when to trade, you will be standing totally still in terms of your development as a trader.

That's my 2c anyway.

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  #170 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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DionysusToast View Post
I would agree that trading is a skill. Some people can and some people can't.

Whilst there are probably characterisitics that help in trading, just as there are in shot-putting. We should not ignore the fact that trading itself is a skill and not just something you can do because of a collection of matching attributes.

It's very nice to have a checklist of attributes and see that you have all those and so will make a good trader. The thing is though 'good trader' should be an attribute too.

There are various trading crutches that people rely on in an attempt to become skilled at trading. These usually come in some form of handing over the process of making trading decisions to something or someone else. The internet is full of offers to relieve you of this burden.

Whilst you are looking for someone or something to tell you when to trade, you will be standing totally still in terms of your development as a trader.

That's my 2c anyway.

what an insight into trading and its attributes, rarely mentioned and discussed.


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  #171 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
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Roger, I have to say thanks. Due to you, I'm back to being profitable trading 1 round lot. I had been "on the fence" about your service for a few days. I kept thinking that your stuff is better and that even though I already love to trade divergences, maybe I could learn a whole lot from you. So I wasn't doing a whole lot of personal trading. Then I opened the email I received after the webinar and I saw the pricing. I almost passed out. When I told my wife, she said "Unless someone has a lot of money, they will have no money left to trade with after buying the course, software, and indicators!"

So after I picked myself up off the floor from passing out-- I put it in my head that I have to make MY OWN little charts in mt4 work. And they have been working. I had zero losers yesterday. I didn't make as much money as you guys normally make in demo mode, but then again, I'm trading with Euro 100,000 and not 2 futures contracts which I believe is equivalent to Euro 240,000. I'm also using real money.

Roger, I think that YOU have the potential to give something "back" to society, especially in the way of helping traders. I also think that you should reevaluate your fee structure, because as someone else pointed out to me on here, there are some real scheisters that charge in the vicinity of what you charge. I'm 99,99% sure that you are NOT a scheister so I'm telling you this as a way to try to *distance* or differentiate yourself from the those other people. I also have a business and I understand development costs and employees, but I find it a remarkable coincidence that his/your monthly charges are about the same. "That" guy is a scheister to be avoided like the plague. I don't put his name in here because I don't want Big Mike to get threatened with legal action.

And I learned a long time ago, the adage "you get what you pay for" doesn't always apply, especially in the field of trading where there's too many dishonest people and too few honest people. I know of services that charge an arm and a leg one-time or monthly, but their service isn't worth an exploding 1977 Pinto. On the other hand, I also know a guy who runs a stock picking service who charges a very modest monthly fee. Without a doubt, someone who subscribes to his service will make this fee many times over every month. He trades his own account, is honest, everything is very transparent, he explains all the setups, and as a result, it's very difficult to hear anyone say anything bad about him on review websites. IMHO, this trader is definitely giving back.

Please accept my opinion as an opinion, and only that. I'm only offering suggestions. I'm not attacking anyone.
Best of Luck!

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  #172 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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acbrasil View Post
Roger, I have to say thanks. Due to you, I'm back to being profitable trading 1 round lot. I had been "on the fence" about your service for a few days. I kept thinking that your stuff is better and that even though I already love to trade divergences, maybe I could learn a whole lot from you. So I wasn't doing a whole lot of personal trading. Then I opened the email I received after the webinar and I saw the pricing. I almost passed out. When I told my wife, she said "Unless someone has a lot of money, they will have no money left to trade with after buying the course, software, and indicators!"

So after I picked myself up off the floor from passing out-- I put it in my head that I have to make MY OWN little charts in mt4 work. And they have been working. I had zero losers yesterday. I didn't make as much money as you guys normally make in demo mode, but then again, I'm trading with Euro 100,000 and not 2 futures contracts which I believe is equivalent to Euro 240,000. I'm also using real money.

Roger, I think that YOU have the potential to give something "back" to society, especially in the way of helping traders. I also think that you should reevaluate your fee structure, because as someone else pointed out to me on here, there are some real scheisters that charge in the vicinity of what you charge. I'm 99,99% sure that you are NOT a scheister so I'm telling you this as a way to try to *distance* or differentiate yourself from the those other people. I also have a business and I understand development costs and employees, but I find it a remarkable coincidence that his/your monthly charges are about the same. "That" guy is a scheister to be avoided like the plague. I don't put his name in here because I don't want Big Mike to get threatened with legal action.

And I learned a long time ago, the adage "you get what you pay for" doesn't always apply, especially in the field of trading where there's too many dishonest people and too few honest people. I know of services that charge an arm and a leg one-time or monthly, but their service isn't worth an exploding 1977 Pinto. On the other hand, I also know a guy who runs a stock picking service who charges a very modest monthly fee. Without a doubt, someone who subscribes to his service will make this fee many times over every month. He trades his own account, is honest, everything is very transparent, he explains all the setups, and as a result, it's very difficult to hear anyone say anything bad about him on review websites. IMHO, this trader is definitely giving back.

Please accept my opinion as an opinion, and only that. I'm only offering suggestions. I'm not attacking anyone.
Best of Luck!

AC, I not only accept your opinion, I also welcome and respect it. You do bring up some interesting points. I think a lot of traders have recognized that this industry is infested with vultures that advertise dreams and sell misery. But let's take your honest stock picker guy as an example of the other side of the coin.

He currently does his research and crunches the data and then dishes out his winning picks to his subscribers for a modest monthly fee. Let's assume that fee is $100 per month...$1200 per year. In 3 years you would have paid out about the same amount that many honest and effective educators charge, except you still wouldn't know anything about how to pick winning stocks.

Now suppose this guy decides that he doesn't want to throw his fish out the window anymore but wants to teach his followers how to fish for themselves. Knowing that his steady income stream will cease to exist, what price does he charge knowing that it's all he'll ever receive in return for his time and knowledge? Keep in mind that he probably has a staff to feed and ongoing operation costs such as a web administrator, advertising plus the expense of maintaining a Trading Room to teach in a live market.

Like any other business, the guy would have to determine a reasonable price point for his service. He'll have to factor in that he will now have to give up many of his evenings and weekends if he is to properly support his "students". If he offers any software to help his followers learn better or pick better stocks, now he has another humongous ongoing expense unless he happens to be a coder. I've invested over $600,000 so far and rising daily, as an example.

He will need to get the word out about what he offers and be prepared to be called every vile name in the book even though his students are quite happy with him. If he does tradeshows, good luck. My last one cost over $40,000.

Finally, even if he prices his service at near break even, he'll still have traders getting sticker shock. I think I'm qualified to speak on that since I've been teaching for many years and still haven't reached the break even point yet.

Thanks for the input AC...and I'm delighted that you're finding my indicators and assistance to be of value.

Roger

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  #173 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
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Roger, did u set out to donate, to the endeavor. Or was it like my trading started out a business and became a hobby?

Hope u are making money on this thing, since the country needs the money..
Why would anyone go from being a "successful trader" with all the benefits and no responsibilities ,,, to having employees, dealing with the public, ordinary income, record keeping/reconciliation/accountants, paying quarterly income taxes, fica etc ????

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  #174 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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gg80108 View Post
Roger, did u set out to donate, to the endeavor. Or was it like my trading started out a business and became a hobby?

Hope u are making money on this thing, since the country needs the money..
Why would anyone go from being a "successful trader" with all the benefits and no responsibilities ,,, to having employees, dealing with the public, ordinary income, record keeping/reconciliation/accountants, paying quarterly income taxes, fica etc ????

That's a question that comes up often. I've owned and run businesses every day for the past 30 years so that's nothing new. If I had to deal with problems, I probably would just prefer to trade. I have zero employee issues. They're the best. I never have to deal with accountants, payroll, FICA, etc. as I have people that do that for me. The business runs itself. But, what are the benefits?

The first benefit I found in teaching is I could do it and not have it affect my trading time. Speaking of trading, did you realize that, when you teach something you naturally get better at it? It's true....and what's that worth to a trader?

I always found pure trading to be a lonely profession. Actually to the point of being boring sometimes. But now I have good friends in almost every civilized country on the planet and we keep in constant contact. I enjoy that immensely. I also learn from them things that would have taken me decades to learn on my own. I share that knowledge with others.... a little of it here in futures.io (formerly BMT).

Teaching caused me to seek out extremely talented trader/programmers to create software tools that would vastly speed up the learning curve for my group. I had not anticipated how much easier it made my personal trading decisions, too. I might never have pursued that if it weren't for my responsibility to provide them with the best tools possible.

Besides helping traders, making a lot of friends and providing a living for my crew, I hadn't expected any joy beyond that. It's been a very pleasnt surprise and I'll be doing it as long as I can talk and move a mouse.

There are people...like Big Mike, for instance...who just enjoy helping people succeed. There are people who have no desire to help anyone if it involves any effort on their part. It's often difficult for one group to understand the thinking of the other.

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  #175 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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rogerf View Post
That's a question that comes up often. I've owned and run businesses every day for the past 30 years so that's nothing new. If I had to deal with problems, I probably would just prefer to trade. I have zero employee issues. They're the best. I never have to deal with accountants, payroll, FICA, etc. as I have people that do that for me. The business runs itself. But, what are the benefits?

The first benefit I found in teaching is I could do it and not have it affect my trading time. Speaking of trading, did you realize that, when you teach something you naturally get better at it? It's true....and what's that worth to a trader?

I always found pure trading to be a lonely profession. Actually to the point of being boring sometimes. But now I have good friends in almost every civilized country on the planet and we keep in constant contact. I enjoy that immensely. I also learn from them things that would have taken me decades to learn on my own. I share that knowledge with others.... a little of it here in futures.io (formerly BMT).

Teaching caused me to seek out extremely talented trader/programmers to create software tools that would vastly speed up the learning curve for my group. I had not anticipated how much easier it made my personal trading decisions, too. I might never have pursued that if it weren't for my responsibility to provide them with the best tools possible.

Besides helping traders, making a lot of friends and providing a living for my crew, I hadn't expected any joy beyond that. It's been a very pleasnt surprise and I'll be doing it as long as I can talk and move a mouse.

There are people...like Big Mike, for instance...who just enjoy helping people succeed. There are people who have no desire to help anyone if it involves any effort on their part. It's often difficult for one group to understand the thinking of the other.



Quoting rogerf That's a question that comes up often. I've owned and run businesses every day for the past 30 years so that's nothing new. If I had to deal with problems, I probably would just prefer to trade. I have zero employee issues. They're the best. I never have to deal with accountants, payroll, FICA, etc. as I have people that do that for me. The business runs itself. But, what are the benefits?....


hi again roger;

your last response compels me to ask you further--specifically concerning what you wrote about your ownership of biz for the last 30 yrs.... about yourself and the biz you owned or used to own, but which your personal description appears to be so far detached from the present reality of running biz and/or international biz.

1--roger, i am somewhat bewildered just how does a wealthy bizman have no biz problem?

how does a bizman have a team of ceo but have no problem?
what exactly is the nature of the biz in this world that does not come with problem of one kind or another, particularly human resources problem?

do we realize that even if we only have two employee, there are inherent two problems already?

perhaps, you ought to confine your claim to fame and fortune to only CURRENT trading which i can personally say that with your current trading setups and from what i could gather from being in your trading room thrice.... that during the three sessions, you could call the trade....

but then unfortunately, as long as any trader wishing to acclaim to be a trading master or trading teacher, but is not willing and not ready to put real own money on the table.... he/she will only remain a wannabe, regardless of how enticing and believable the person's verbiage contains....

especially, when you are only trading two contracts at a time in your teaching room, there is no special reason at all in most traders' mind as to why you are not trading for real money.... and this was exactly one of the questions that came to my own mind while in your trading room.

coming back to the specific questions arisen out of your responses:

2--..... I've owned and run businesses every day for the past 30 years....

which biz that you own or used to own that does not contain personnel and biz problems, pls?

unfortunately for me, every biz i ever owned comes with ton of problems. and on top of those, everyday the problems present themselves in different shapes and forms. even in biz like floor coverings, if you ever engaged in one, it also came with multitude of problems as well, don't you agree?

3--....I have zero employee issues. They're the best. I never have to deal with accountants, payroll, FICA, etc. as I have people that do that for me. The business runs itself....

roger, what are you trying to tell us here, pls? you sounded very much like a philosopher and a walter mitty genius.... definitely not like a bizman.... your deliberation on owning a biz or bizs and there is no biz problem.... sounds much more like a dream for monday night quarterbacks, really. but then again, i could be equally incorrect as well. however, pls do help us to understand a little more, if you wish.

4--....
which roger would you like your trading comrades on bmt to believe in;

4.1 .... roger the successful bizman who run a bunch of biz with the best team to take care of all biz problems....? and that the biz runs itself....? and/or

4.2 .... roger the successful trading guru who practically trades every day from 9 to 11 in his own trading classroom with many paid students, trading 2 contracts at a time.... and preferring sim to 5k real money.... to demonstrate and to provide certain respects of concrete proof to his own students that roger is able to take the beast by the horns practically every session?

roger, personally, i do believe with those setups that i saw while in your trading room, that you are able to prove to your own followers in your own trading room that you can surely fulfill the axiom--SHOW ME THE MONEY....

i humbly apologize to everyone for my long winded questions for roger, if he so wishes to, to elaborate a little further and to show us the money for trading sake. and i am asking those questions with all due respect and high esteem for what he and his have kindly offered to members of bm here. thx much, roger, with much appreciation.

profitable trading everyone and do have a wonderful weekend with your significant others too.
-----------------
5--i am reluctant to bring on my last question, however, with much contemplation..... and for the fact that i really have no ill intent or malice against any one who claims proprietorial to any trading contraption or setup or theory or whatever; perhaps, i'll just show each piece of the acclaims here for the general benefits of bm trading community to perhaps contemplate--what is or who is or who is not the real mccoy.... K?

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  #176 (permalink)
 futurestrader1 
New York City, USA
 
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Live Trading Room Recap shows very good results...so you have a live trading room with 2 traders? (roger and clint)...how to join?

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  #177 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
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I doubt that this thread was meant to criticize Roger because he sells very expensive ninjatrade indicators. About his business, he is just being a positive businessman. I also have a business (unrealted business) and until now, all of the problems are small and not even worth mentioning.

So no point in criticizing him. Divergences work if used properly. If you don't believe me, go the OTHER WAY on the trade.

I'm not a student of Roger's, nor have I ever been.

Oh yeah, something else: I know he demo trades in front of other people, and I know WHY he does that, because there are many distractions. But demo trading and live trading are completely different animals. In demo, the emotions are just not the same, even if you have 50 people watching. Put your money on the line AND have 50 people watching is the REAL test for any successful trade. My 2 cents.

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  #178 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
siam, west coast andaman sea
 
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futurestrader1 View Post
Live Trading Room Recap shows very good results...so you have a live trading room with 2 traders? (roger and clint)...how to join?

to join?

simple. just go to his website as advertised and fill out a short form. bev would send you a confirmation to enjoy his trading room. enjoy and relax, roger will come on a couple of hours before noon for about two hours, k?

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  #179 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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acbrasil View Post
I doubt that this thread was meant to criticize Roger because he sells very expensive ninjatrade indicators. About his business, he is just being a positive businessman. I also have a business (unrealted business) and until now, all of the problems are small and not even worth mentioning.

So no point in criticizing him. Divergences work if used properly. If you don't believe me, go the OTHER WAY on the trade.

I'm not a student of Roger's, nor have I ever been.

Oh yeah, something else: I know he demo trades in front of other people, and I know WHY he does that, because there are many distractions. But demo trading and live trading are completely different animals. In demo, the emotions are just not the same, even if you have 50 people watching. Put your money on the line AND have 50 people watching is the REAL test for any successful trade. My 2 cents.

You're absolutely right AC, sim trading and live trading are different from the emotional standpoint...to the trader sitting at home. But, when you're a moderator, it's different, too. The 50 people or so are not just watching you, they're judging you, and that's where the difference lies. When I take a trade and it loses, I couldn't care less. It's one of thousands I've taken and one of thousands I'll take in the future. The outcome of any single trade means zilch as long as I've managed it correctly. Statistically, it's insignificant in the big picture.

But when I trade (live or sim) and people...my friends... are depending on my judgment and are sometimes taking trades with me, that adds an element of emotional pressure that far exceeds that of simply trading a live account. If you're selling snake oil, you will consistently lose and so will they. They will dispise you and they'll tell the world about you in every forum and chat room they can find. So there's pressure for sure to perform and it makes no difference whether it's live or sim.

Now, whether you trade live account or sim, if you are a professional trader, the outcome of each trade will be the same (within reason) if the system is totally mechanical. In simulation, I can still take trades even when the market condition falls below what I demand in my personal live trading. Demonstrating what happens on weak trades to the group...plus what happens when mistakes are made...provide valuable lessons that trading a live account would not.

Some moderators do trade live accounts when moderating...or say they are (it can easily be faked). It is fun to watch anyone making real money profits. But it adds nothing to the success rate of their followers. Confidence can't be taught...nor can emotional control. Those things must be developed through time and practice. If you ever find a moderator trading their live account and the attendees are making money hand over fist, be sure to let me know.

I've tried it both ways and the way I run the Trading Room is by far the most effective for my group. Judging a trading system on the basis of sim vs. live is the wrong mindset in that it only proves that the moderator has mastered their human fears. That mastery does not auto-transfer to you!! Judge any trading system of interest to you by how the system performs...not the moderator. Never buy any system you don't understand. If you can't understand what he's doing and he won't tell you, you'd do well to pass.

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  #180 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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hi again roger;

your last response compels me to ask you further--specifically concerning what you wrote about your ownership of biz for the last 30 yrs.... about yourself and the biz you owned or used to own, but which your personal description appears to be so far detached from the present reality of running biz and/or international biz.

1--roger, i am somewhat bewildered just how does a wealthy bizman have no biz problem?

It's probably uncommon but it does happen. Felton Trading is a good example. Everyone knows their job and they do it well. We have no quotas to fill. Our single goal is to make sure that every student is given the best possible training, support, software and mentorship necessary to succeed.

how does a bizman have a team of ceo but have no problem?

Every aspect of this business is handled by someone more capable than myself...and I'm quite capable. I am left to do what I love...trade and teach. When you hire professionals who take pride in what they do and perform far above expectations, you shouldn't have many problems.

what exactly is the nature of the biz in this world that does not come with problem of one kind or another, particularly human resources problem?

If you are struggling with Human Resource issues, you should look closely at your hiring practices. Perhaps they need a complete overhaul.

do we realize that even if we only have two employee, there are inherent two problems already?

I don't think you should enter into any business and look at your employees as problems. If they are, perhaps your hiring skills need honing.

perhaps, you ought to confine your claim to fame and fortune to only CURRENT trading which i can personally say that with your current trading setups and from what i could gather from being in your trading room thrice.... that during the three sessions, you could call the trade....

Excuse me? Are we still talking about my business experience? Those who know me know I make no claims to fame or fortune. That is arrogance and that is a character flaw. I'm just a successful trader in that I reach my personal trading goals consistently. I'm also an effective teacher and mentor. People can be good at what they do and not be arrogant about it.

but then unfortunately, as long as any trader wishing to acclaim to be a trading master or trading teacher, but is not willing and not ready to put real own money on the table.... he/she will only remain a wannabe, regardless of how enticing and believable the person's verbiage contains....especially, when you are only trading two contracts at a time in your teaching room, there is no special reason at all in most traders' mind as to why you are not trading for real money.... and this was exactly one of the questions that came to my own mind while in your trading room.

Interesting point of view and was addressed in a recent post for AC. Trading my live account might be entertaining but entertaining is not the purpose of the Trading Room. It's to demonstrate every aspect of trading. How to identify great trade opportunities...how to manage them...how to recognize weak trades and market conditions. Who in their right mind would trade their live account to demonstrate what happens in bad market characteristics? Or to keep trading once the goal has been reached and market conditions have deteriorated. That would be crazy. But, in sim, I can and students learn from watching the trades and how I manage them...even the losers.

If I could magically transfer my mastery of emotions simply by trading live, I certainly would. There would be a definite benefit. Unfortunately, watching someone make money accomplishes nothing. Overcoming the psychological barriers takes time and lots of practice to build a rock solid level of confidence. Without that, you'll soon be breaking your rules. If you wish to simply be entertained, there are a number of gurus I hear that trade their live accounts...but it does nothing for the success rate of the group.



coming back to the specific questions arisen out of your responses:

2--..... I've owned and run businesses every day for the past 30 years....

which biz that you own or used to own that does not contain personnel and biz problems, pls?

Felton Trading

unfortunately for me, every biz i ever owned comes with ton of problems. and on top of those, everyday the problems present themselves in different shapes and forms. even in biz like floor coverings, if you ever engaged in one, it also came with multitude of problems as well, don't you agree?

It appears that you have really struggled in several areas in your business endeveors. Instead of getting angry at me, I would suggest that you consider taking some business courses online or at a local community college, if possible. Pay particular attention to any course on effective hiring as that appears to be one of your weakest areas.


3--....I have zero employee issues. They're the best. I never have to deal with accountants, payroll, FICA, etc. as I have people that do that for me. The business runs itself....

roger, what are you trying to tell us here, pls?

That was a direct response to a specific question. The answer was clear, I thought.

you sounded very much like a philosopher and a walter mitty genius.... definitely not like a bizman.... your deliberation on owning a biz or bizs and there is no biz problem.... sounds much more like a dream for monday night quarterbacks, really. but then again, i could be equally incorrect as well. however, pls do help us to understand a little more, if you wish.

4--....which roger would you like your trading comrades on bmt to believe in;

4.1 .... roger the successful bizman who run a bunch of biz with the best team to take care of all biz problems....? and that the biz runs itself....? and/or

4.2 .... roger the successful trading guru who practically trades every day from 9 to 11 in his own trading classroom with many paid students, trading 2 contracts at a time.... and preferring sim to 5k real money.... to demonstrate and to provide certain respects of concrete proof to his own students that roger is able to take the beast by the horns practically every session?

I would highly discourage anyone choosing Felton Trading because of my past business experience. That has nothing to do with what they want me to do for them.

Again, my personal success is somewhat irrelevant. I developed the method and have been trading it every day through it's evolution for 14 years. Of course I'm going to be good at it.

But I humbly request that you ask yourself a very important question: Is it more important for you to witness my success or the success of my students? I ask this because it appears you have been more focused on what mode I was trading in than what was actually happening in the group. Outside of my personal trading...and I do consider it personal...everything else I do (as well as every team member) is solely devoted to student success. My score means nothing if they aren't getting it.

roger, personally, i do believe with those setups that i saw while in your trading room, that you are able to prove to your own followers in your own trading room that you can surely fulfill the axiom--SHOW ME THE MONEY....

Showing anyone the money without showing them how it was made would be pointless. One thing I've learned in this business is "Live Account Believers" can never be convinced that the exercise is meaningless. It's their last bastion of hope. They bought into seeing historical results and failed. They bought into seeing where supposed trades occurred on a given day...and that failed. Now, somehow they have convinced themselves that, if they could just watch a few live trades then their ship will have arrived. They will buy into that and fail once again. Then what will they demand?

Live account trading proves good psychological control...that's it...and it's non-transferrable. How much money do think you need to see before you are absolutely certain that your Human Emotions have been completely conquered simply by watching someone else make money? Honestly, if you believe that live account trading is your shortcut ticket to trading paradise, then Felton Trading is not for you. We're trainers, not entertainers. If you want to succeed, study the system and understand it. Learn from the pro pushing the buttons and ask questions. And watch how the followers are doing. And then ask yourself honestly if what you see and understand is something you could actually do.


i humbly apologize to everyone for my long winded questions for roger, if he so wishes to, to elaborate a little further and to show us the money for trading sake. and i am asking those questions with all due respect and high esteem for what he and his have kindly offered to members of bm here. thx much, roger, with much appreciation.

profitable trading everyone and do have a wonderful weekend with your significant others too.
-----------------
5--i am reluctant to bring on my last question, however, with much contemplation..... and for the fact that i really have no ill intent or malice against any one who claims proprietorial to any trading contraption or setup or theory or whatever; perhaps, i'll just show each piece of the acclaims here for the general benefits of bm trading community to perhaps contemplate--what is or who is or who is not the real mccoy.... K

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  #181 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
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rogerf View Post

I've tried it both ways and the way I run the Trading Room is by far the most effective for my group. Judging a trading system on the basis of sim vs. live is the wrong mindset in that it only proves that the moderator has mastered their human fears. That mastery does not auto-transfer to you!! Judge any trading system of interest to you by how the system performs...not the moderator. Never buy any system you don't understand. If you can't understand what he's doing and he won't tell you, you'd do well to pass.

I see some people trading live, and trust me, you can "hear" the difference. Either they are trading real money or their boss said that they are going to get fired if they lose money! But whatever works best for you, works for you. I disagree with you on the part of the moderator. The moderator, IMHO, has the role of passing on experience and teaching the students PATIENCE. So I believe that the moderator DOES in fact play a large part of the process, like a mentor. You can have a great system, but if people don't follow the plan or let emotions take control, they will lose money.

This next question may help some curious people: In terms of the course, what more does it teach than divergences? I have never seen anything such as an outline or course syllabus floating around on your site. I think the indicators are useful, but a little too much $$$ in terms of what I trade with. If you ever offer a discount on the indicators, let me know.

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  #182 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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acbrasil View Post
I see some people trading live, and trust me, you can "hear" the difference. Either they are trading real money or their boss said that they are going to get fired if they lose money! But whatever works best for you, works for you. I disagree with you on the part of the moderator. The moderator, IMHO, has the role of passing on experience and teaching the students PATIENCE. So I believe that the moderator DOES in fact play a large part of the process, like a mentor. You can have a great system, but if people don't follow the plan or let emotions take control, they will lose money.

This next question may help some curious people: In terms of the course, what more does it teach than divergences? I have never seen anything such as an outline or course syllabus floating around on your site. I think the indicators are useful, but a little too much $$$ in terms of what I trade with. If you ever offer a discount on the indicators, let me know.

I think AC brings up a common misconception among traders in search of a "winning set of indicators". First, you must understand that, by itself, there is no such thing. Indicators are a set of tools that, placed in the right hands with extensive training and mentorship, can produce the results they seek.

If someone sells you a set of exquisite golf clubs, does that alone qualify you to be a golf pro ready to hit the circuit and make the big bucks? Why in the world do traders think that obtaining the right indicators, by any means, will do the trick? I got past that fantasy a long time ago. I think I gave it to the Tooth Fairy.

If you are struggling in your trading and you are expecting indicators to fix the problem, you will continue to struggle until you change your mindset.

So, please understand, AC, that if all I did was sell indicators, the first problem would be that they would be vastly overpriced and they would NOT accomplish what traders wanted them to do. It is extremely important to remember that no matter who's indicators you are considering.

To understand what I do, let's continue with our golf analogy for a bit. Imagine that you are a Pro Golfer and you have a gift for teaching others how to become Pro Golfers. Would you simply sell them a good set of overpriced clubs, pat them on the back and wish them luck? You wouldn't be a golf instructor, you'd be a crook.

A good instructor would first seek to train only those persons who had a strong passion to master golf. The instructor would then go to work teaching their students everything they ever learned about what it takes to win at the game...from the swing, follow through, balance, energy management...the whole enchalada. It would take hard work and many hours working together for an untiold length of time...possibly years.

Could the instructor guarantee that every student they taught would make a fat income as a Golf Pro? If he did, he'd be the biggest con artist in town.

So, imagine you are this instructor and, instead of golf, you teach trading. You dedicate your life to it. You give up your days, evenings, weekends and holidays helping your students in untimed, unlimited mentorship sessions for the rest of your life. You train them every single trading day and you make sure that every student has been given every ounce of knowledge and training they will need to make it. You spend over a half a million dollars and 2.5 years developing the finest tools (indicators and system) that you possibly can to help them.

Now you tell me, what price would you charge? Would something less than the cost of a 4 year old used Chevrolet be too much? When people came to you and complained about your pricing because they've seen dozens of snake oil people who take their $199 and run, what would you tell them? The price for what you do has nothing to do with what others are charging. It has everything to do with what it accomplishes.

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  #183 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
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You can't blame me for liking YOUR indicators, can you? (That's a lot better than saying I think your indicators stink!) Yes, I think they are quite nifty, but unfortunately, they aren't available to test out/try. Haha, if you had a set of pro golf clubs, I would like to take those for swing too Thanks for the reply, Roger!

Oh yeah, please take a look at what I said about a course outline. As it stands, the curious people are just told "Common' over and pull out that credit card and signup!" It's just take-your-word-for-it. Most courses, at the least the mainstream college, university, and technical courses TELL YOU what you will learn in the course before you even get started.

b/r
AC

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 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
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Roger, I saw some basic descriptive info on your site. Nice video, btw, of the indicator.

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  #185 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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acbrasil View Post
You can't blame me for liking YOUR indicators, can you? (That's a lot better than saying I think your indicators stink!) Yes, I think they are quite nifty, but unfortunately, they aren't available to test out/try. Haha, if you had a set of pro golf clubs, I would like to take those for swing too Thanks for the reply, Roger!

Oh yeah, please take a look at what I said about a course outline. As it stands, the curious people are just told "Common' over and pull out that credit card and signup!" It's just take-your-word-for-it. Most courses, at the least the mainstream college, university, and technical courses TELL YOU what you will learn in the course before you even get started.

b/r
AC


Well, I am certainly pleased that you like them, AC. Thats' for sure and I hope you are taking advantage of the ones I provided to futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members in the downloads section.

I trust that no one at Felton Trading ever asked you to get out your credit card. Our staff are forbidden to employ any "sales tactics" whatsoever. Their job is just to ask questions. Please let me know if anyone here ever asked you to buy anything.

I really do wish I could give you our complete system on a trial basis. But, again, it would be like giving you the keys to a vehicle that you've never seen before. It has levers and knobs and switches and dials that you have no clue how to operate. Someone must train you on using it or it will never get you anywhere.

Our software is pretty similar in that it has a definite learning curve of 2 to 4 weeks. It's serious sophisticated stuff and requires training and we just don't have the manpower to devote weeks of training to traders that are just "kicking tires". I wish we could but it's just not feasible at the present time.

We would be glad to provide you with a Course Outline. It's pretty extensive and covers Market Behavior, Technical Analysis theory, Divergence, Momentum, Volume, Market Entry (proper), Trade Management, Risk Control, In-depth study of all 10 FT signals, Signal Grading and Trading Psychology. There's more, but those are the highlights. All reputable system sellers and trading educators should do no less.

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  #186 (permalink)
 Hapster 
San Diego, California
 
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rogerf View Post
I really do wish I could give you our complete system on a trial basis. But, again, it would be like giving you the keys to a vehicle that you've never seen before. It has levers and knobs and switches and dials that you have no clue how to operate. Someone must train you on using it or it will never get you anywhere.

Understatement of the year.

H

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  #187 (permalink)
 acbrasil 
somewhere, brazil
 
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Roger, something to consider is that maybe *all* the traders don't come to you because they are losing money, but rather, they want to see if there is a better way of doing things, or perhaps refine what they already know.

I think I'm going to give your course a try. Why? Because maybe you have a better way of doing it. AND this forum could use someone who isn't afraid of speaking their mind as to whether it's actually worth it or not. I don't know why so many of your students are so quiet. Only a couple have spoken out. Well, I hope I don't regret this....

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 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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acbrasil View Post
Roger, something to consider is that maybe *all* the traders don't come to you because they are losing money, but rather, they want to see if there is a better way of doing things, or perhaps refine what they already know.

I think I'm going to give your course a try. Why? Because maybe you have a better way of doing it. AND this forum could use someone who isn't afraid of speaking their mind as to whether it's actually worth it or not. I don't know why so many of your students are so quiet. Only a couple have spoken out. Well, I hope I don't regret this....


That's correct, AC and I hope I didn't give the impression that all traders wanting my help have been losing money. There have been some that were holding their own...or actually making money...but these have been a smaller percentage.

AC, I consider you my friend and I would love the opportunity to work with you. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, and forgive me if I misunderstand, but it would seem that perhaps you aren't quite ready to make a decision right now. You have many doubts and reservations, which is normal. But I have found out over my many years that, whenever I make a decision to do something I'm not positive about and have insufficient information, it was usually a mistake. Possibly one reason for any lack of information could be that you visited us for less than 2 days in October. That's not much time. Are you sure you've given this important decision enough time?

I ask this, AC, because I deeply care about your success and I'd want us to start off "on the right foot". Choosing a trading system is a lot like choosing a wife...if the fit isn't right it's not going to work for the long haul.

Try coming into the room and simply asking, "I'm thinking of joining...are there any students in here that regret their decision?" That's what I'd do if I were considering any course or system. Everyone can see your question and they will respond with their honest answers. There aren't many educators and system vendors that would encourage that...or even allow it...usually because they fear what their followers might say. Then let's you and I get together and go over every part of the system and course in great detail. Ask every question you can think of and get straight answers. I can show you what works, but only you can decide if you have the dedication, passion and discipline to make it work for you.

Don't make any decision until you have strong feelings one way or the other...either positive based on extensive due diligence and understanding, or negative due to "red flags". Never make a desision to do something unless you feel pretty good about it. You'll usually not be totally sure about any decision until you make it and then give it your best shot. I just want to know that you have all the information you need and that our staff, including me, have done our job in providing that.

That would be my suggestion, AC....and make sure you never lose your outspokenness. Honest communication is vital and it's the reason why we don't isolate our group in the room as so many others do. I think your outspokenness would be a terrific addition to the group, as well as the futures.io (formerly BMT) forum, for sure.

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  #189 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
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acbrasil View Post
Roger, something to consider is that maybe *all* the traders don't come to you because they are losing money, but rather, they want to see if there is a better way of doing things, or perhaps refine what they already know.

I think I'm going to give your course a try. Why? Because maybe you have a better way of doing it. AND this forum could use someone who isn't afraid of speaking their mind as to whether it's actually worth it or not. I don't know why so many of your students are so quiet. Only a couple have spoken out. Well, I hope I don't regret this....

What level are u at in ur trading?: 1.never real been even now trading is a hobby , 2.make a little money 3.make alot of money but just want to learn more..

I'd be willing to contribute to a training pool to see if u can really be trained to make money, if ur a #1 above..... Course u have to keep a log here and be willing to share ur brokerage statements use ur own risk capital in trading account, when u get out of sim mode.....

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 Jillzy 
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Hi all,
I skimmed some of the replies here for FT...I can tell that those who poo-poo'd it as just using Stochastics or MACD haven't actually tried it. After trying out quite a few other trading rooms, some quite well known and some quite pricey, I decided to give FT a try. I've only had the system for 4 days now and am still lost in all the indicators because they are pretty powerful and pretty customizable. Plus, they're constantly updating it (already had an update in my short time, and they just had a new version out last week). On top of that, compared to some rooms I've tried where they stare at one cluttered chart of the ES all day or wander off for a nap and / or never actually show any trades... FT trades live 3 hours each day and then does training for students for another hour + each day. That alone is more than I've seen anywhere else. Oh and unlimited mentoring...which I've been seeking.
So...while I haven't quite got the hang of their system yet, I'm glad I'm trying it and quite optimistic. I'll post again when I have more to share.

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  #191 (permalink)
 ryanmcc15 
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Jillzy View Post
Hi all,
I skimmed some of the replies here for FT...I can tell that those who poo-poo'd it as just using Stochastics or MACD haven't actually tried it. After trying out quite a few other trading rooms, some quite well known and some quite pricey, I decided to give FT a try. I've only had the system for 4 days now and am still lost in all the indicators because they are pretty powerful and pretty customizable. Plus, they're constantly updating it (already had an update in my short time, and they just had a new version out last week). On top of that, compared to some rooms I've tried where they stare at one cluttered chart of the ES all day or wander off for a nap and / or never actually show any trades... FT trades live 3 hours each day and then does training for students for another hour + each day. That alone is more than I've seen anywhere else. Oh and unlimited mentoring...which I've been seeking.
So...while I haven't quite got the hang of their system yet, I'm glad I'm trying it and quite optimistic. I'll post again when I have more to share.

Looking forward to hear of your expirience Jillzy

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  #192 (permalink)
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Jillzy View Post
Hi all,
I skimmed some of the replies here for FT...I can tell that those who poo-poo'd it as just using Stochastics or MACD haven't actually tried it. After trying out quite a few other trading rooms, some quite well known and some quite pricey, I decided to give FT a try. I've only had the system for 4 days now and am still lost in all the indicators because they are pretty powerful and pretty customizable. Plus, they're constantly updating it (already had an update in my short time, and they just had a new version out last week). On top of that, compared to some rooms I've tried where they stare at one cluttered chart of the ES all day or wander off for a nap and / or never actually show any trades... FT trades live 3 hours each day and then does training for students for another hour + each day. That alone is more than I've seen anywhere else. Oh and unlimited mentoring...which I've been seeking.
So...while I haven't quite got the hang of their system yet, I'm glad I'm trying it and quite optimistic. I'll post again when I have more to share.

You are actually doing them a disservice here.

You are optimistic, you haven't traded it, you don't understand it - BUT IT LOOKS GREAT.

In terms of a referral, this is as bad as they get!

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 TheSeeker 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MT4, StrategyRunner
Trading: ES,EUR/USD,Oil
 
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Posts: 126 since Dec 2010
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I'm interested to hear anyone's experiences with the room, I'm particularly interested in whether the posted trade results on the daily recap page are credible.

I'm planning to take a free trial in the coming week myself and will report back.

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 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/CQG and Interactive Brokers
Trading: ES
 
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Posts: 73 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 7 given, 20 received

With two very important qualifications I'd say the trades are credible (that is, no one is making these numbers up).

Keep in mind however that:

1. They are SIM trades. I know Roger insists that this should not factor into an evaluation of his products, teaching, or performance numbers in my opinion it absolutely makes a huge difference.
2. They are Roger's (Or Clint's) trades. In the hands of other traders like you or I the performance would be quite different and in all likelihood significantly poorer.

Regards,



TheSeeker View Post
I'm interested to hear anyone's experiences with the room, I'm particularly interested in whether the posted trade results on the daily recap page are credible.

I'm planning to take a free trial in the coming week myself and will report back.


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 TheSeeker 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MT4, StrategyRunner
Trading: ES,EUR/USD,Oil
 
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Posts: 126 since Dec 2010
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exiledgoblin View Post
With two very important qualifications I'd say the trades are credible (that is, no one is making these numbers up).

What I meant was - does he show his DOM when he trades or do the figures on the website match his calls in the room ?


exiledgoblin View Post
Keep in mind however that:

1. They are SIM trades. I know Roger insists that this should not factor into an evaluation of his products, teaching, or performance numbers in my opinion it absolutely makes a huge difference.
2. They are Roger's (Or Clint's) trades. In the hands of other traders like you or I the performance would be quite different and in all likelihood significantly poorer.

Regards,

I agree with you on the rest. These points are valid for all trading rooms and mentors, however.

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 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Trading: 6E, CL, GC
 
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exiledgoblin View Post
With two very important qualifications I'd say the trades are credible (that is, no one is making these numbers up).

Keep in mind however that:

1. They are SIM trades. I know Roger insists that this should not factor into an evaluation of his products, teaching, or performance numbers in my opinion it absolutely makes a huge difference.
2. They are Roger's (Or Clint's) trades. In the hands of other traders like you or I the performance would be quite different and in all likelihood significantly poorer.

Regards,

Hope everyone had a super Thanksgiving and took some time to help someone less fortunate.

As many futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members know, they have free and unlimited access to the Trading Room. Their feedback is appreciated but only if genuine, good or bad. Pretty good deal, I'd say.

If anyone believes that they can become a great trader by simply watching someone trade a Live Account, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change their mind. But the truth is, it proves nothing. The only thing that proves the validity and value of a trading system is how the students themselves are doing. Nothing else matters.

When someone who masters a successful system is unsuccessful, the only logical reason is they haven't yet achieved the mental mastery that is absolutely essential to success. If you lack emotional control, then there's not a system on earth, no matter how good it is, that will help you.

The psychological side of trading is so important that I have hired a Doctorate of Psychology who has many years of trading and mentoring experience to come on board starting in December. He will be assisting traders on a full time basis to overcome the mental demons that plague so many traders and sabotage their success. Lack of this type of assistance is what causes most traders to fail...not because they didn't get to watch the "guru" trade his Live Account. Many traders can't afford this level of professional help but I feel it is imperative to success and will be offered free to benefit our traders. He'll be conducting several webinars that futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members are free to attend, of course.

Exiledgoblin is right, traders expecting to match my results are in for a rude awakening if they refuse to do the work. There's training, close mentorship and lots of practice ahead. I'm a very conservative trader so beating my results isn't that hard...it's done often in the room by students. And I love it...means I'm doing my job.

Roger Felton

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 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
Trading: 6E, CL, GC
 
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TheSeeker View Post
What I meant was - does he show his DOM when he trades or do the figures on the website match his calls in the room ?

I agree with you on the rest. These points are valid for all trading rooms and mentors, however.


When I'm moderating the room, my trades are visible at all times. I don't use a DOM since I find it is a huge advantage to trade right on the chart. That way, I never take my eyes off of what's going on.

When Clint is moderating, attendees see his trades and they see my calls posted in the chat in real time so everyone knows what I'm doing. At the end of the trading session, the results are taken from the Market Analyzer and posted on the website.

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 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-Fire)
Trading: ES
 
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TheSeeker View Post
I'm interested to hear anyone's experiences with the room, I'm particularly interested in whether the posted trade results on the daily recap page are credible.

I'm planning to take a free trial in the coming week myself and will report back.

Check out this thread before buying vendor information..


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  #199 (permalink)
 Trader Duck 
Fairbanks, Alaska
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader, Nexgen T-3 Fibs Pro Trader (Love Them!)
Broker: AMP/CQG & Kinetic
Trading: CL
 
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monpere View Post
I believe that all the trading education outfits out there are business solely geared to make profits for their owners. These educators are teaching because they can't make a living trading. I did programming work for one of these outfits for 2 years, so I knew the internals of that particular education service.

Why would you want to spend 10 hour days in a trading room, and doing sales, and preparing presentations, doing back end customer related work, etc. etc. for a small education business, if you can spend a few hours a day trading and making a good income? When you ask them, they will say, "I do this because I love teaching", That is pure bull !!!, they do it because it's easier for them to make a living that way then for them to make a living trading.

I don't agree with you, some really do like to teach. Some are snake oil and some are not. The more you have studied, the better your chance to pick a good one.
If I could get my money back from every method I bought, I would say, "No thanks, I got my money's worth."
It seems like the good ones give a free trial. That's a pretty good indication that they think their method will sell itself. Having said that, let me add that I havn't found any that I thougt were great teachers, but they do know how to trade. Felton didn't impress me. I've seen his teaser webinars and my trading method (to me) is better.

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 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/CQG and Interactive Brokers
Trading: ES
 
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Posts: 73 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 7 given, 20 received

Hi Jillzy,

How's training going?

Regards,


Jillzy View Post
Hi all,
I skimmed some of the replies here for FT...I can tell that those who poo-poo'd it as just using Stochastics or MACD haven't actually tried it. After trying out quite a few other trading rooms, some quite well known and some quite pricey, I decided to give FT a try. I've only had the system for 4 days now and am still lost in all the indicators because they are pretty powerful and pretty customizable. Plus, they're constantly updating it (already had an update in my short time, and they just had a new version out last week). On top of that, compared to some rooms I've tried where they stare at one cluttered chart of the ES all day or wander off for a nap and / or never actually show any trades... FT trades live 3 hours each day and then does training for students for another hour + each day. That alone is more than I've seen anywhere else. Oh and unlimited mentoring...which I've been seeking.
So...while I haven't quite got the hang of their system yet, I'm glad I'm trying it and quite optimistic. I'll post again when I have more to share.


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