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TEN-THOUSAND IN EDUCATION, FINALLY PAYING OFF

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  #101 (permalink)
 sinisa 
Melbourne, Australia
 
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jstnbrg View Post
Issue 1:
Beware too much success. Really.

Oh yes i know this one, in one of my crazy days, weeks, i had a week of extreame profits, and there was an auction of the house my wife wanted us to buy, the way the things where going i saw my self buying it for cash.....
I do not want to even remeber next couple of days, just to say i was throwing up in toilet for about 3 hours after that....

Huh.....

Markets are logical and
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  #102 (permalink)
 shortbleu 
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Hi bobbyacim,

I read your post with much interest as I am also interested in Market Profile and you had some success at it, until your emotions took over and you did some revenge trading (revenge trading probably happens to everyone at some point).
I was wondering if you managed to get back on track and focus and your MP methology.
If you're still around, let us know how you keep on, always interested to hear from traders who manage to turn around their trading, up their skills and become profitable. I sincerely hope you did not give up after your emotions took over as I have a feeling you are on the right track...

Shortbleu

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  #103 (permalink)
 rassi 
the congo
 
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DionysusToast View Post
You should go back to that thread and have a think what it's really about. It does not prove that market movements are random. To me, it's all about confirmation bias. Whether it's Horizontal lines, market profile, squiggly indicators - you often see what you want to see and read meaning into the random.

There's an important piece of the puzzle that you are missing and will always miss when you look to define the market by any objective analysis technique.

The fact is - the markets are a casino. People with a lot of money are dicking around with it. It IS an auction but it is not a purely supply/demand driven auction. Or rather, the supply and demand isn't coming along for reasons related to value. It is not a pure auction. Simply put - people are regularly & intentionally pulling the pants of retail traders down and spanking them on the a$$ over & over & over again.

They know where you get in. They know how much risk you are willing to put into a trade. They know where clusters of traders will enter. They know how to shake people out.

I think it is fantastic to have some high-level view of where the market is, how it is structured and where it will go to. FT71 uses MP. Other people frame it in different ways. Still - you have to understand it's all a game and you have to understand when you are being suckered in short term if you want to make a go of day trading...

DT

An excellent point and one that is the key to trading succesfully imho.

To the op, try this, look at a blank chart, any t/f any market, now try to clear your mind of all conventional thinking and focus on price with the following in mind, what has to happen for price to move from a to b ? what are the common traits of price?

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  #104 (permalink)
 bobbyacim 
new york
 
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rassi View Post
An excellent point and one that is the key to trading succesfully imho.

To the op, try this, look at a blank chart, any t/f any market, now try to clear your mind of all conventional thinking and focus on price with the following in mind, what has to happen for price to move from a to b ? what are the common traits of price?

Hi Everybody!

I have not given up, yet.....maybe I am a gluten for pain.
Went back into it with the monies I have left(16k)
Wrote to Roger F. and asked if his offer for a futures.io (formerly BMT) member to participate in his trading room was still available. He wrote me a very nice email, basically said that me looking in was not going to be enough for turning my trading around.
And made a very attractive offer if I became a paying client of his course. I am considering....

Anyway, where are we today?
after much research on my own, I concluded that the best trade opportunities happen with the trend.
and I often observed good trades utilizing the phenomina called hidden divergence; where there is a discrepency between price and an indicator.

Traders international teaches it.
Felton teaches it.
and others, so I believe its not going away any time soon.

As of last week, I took 18 LIVE trades on the 6E, was slightly up until recently, when I incurred two sessions of 4 losing trades at a time. I was trading 3 contracts, with a SL of 5 ticks per; TP on the first 2 contracts was 7 ticks, letting the 3rd run for whatever additional monies i could get, of course I had a breakeven after 4 ticks and if my 3rd contract ran well, i incrementally moved it's stoploss. Well, with that lossing streak, I am down $1.6 k
Have considered throwing in the towel forever!!

However the Masochism has kicked in again!!!!
I just re-vamped EVERYTHING on my chart.

No longer concentrating on hiden Divergence,
I'm in recovery mode and I need to trade accordingly.

I now only have the following on my 555 tick chart:
1. keltner channel
2. PriceActionSwing indicator, set to only show me a double top/double bottom
3. felton Momentum

I am looking to NIBBLE my way back to Breakeven at least (God Willing )

Entry: Only going with the trend; take a trade at a pullback to 90% of the middle or opposite keltner channel AND the PriceActionSwing indicator has marked the pullback with a DT or DB mark AND the felton momentum has stopped moving in the pullback direction AND has started moving in TREND direction, PLUS I will enter on the last 40-50 ticks of the trigger price bar ONLY if it is going in the trend direction!!!!

Folks, I am at the edge of sanity with this thing

All I want to achieve is One trade a week for approx $300
and after 5 years and 5000 chart hours I feel i was just on a merry-go-round.

Today, I nibbled a $100

Forgot how to post a screen shot of my little trade today, I have in in a word document.

Much heartfelt thanks to BIG MIKE, JEFF C., Sharky, LongBoat, Exiledgoblin, Fattails, and a mountain of other dedicated traders on this site of which would require 10 pages of space to thank!!!!

Thank you all for your interest, kind words, and incredible advice!!!!



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  #105 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Glad to see you back. I was just wondering, so Reza's Market Profile didn't have that good a success rate after all? I was thinking about taking the time to read about it beginning with that CBOT .pdf , but if your experience could save me the trouble and time of not going for it. Good luck with your new foray in the markets.

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  #106 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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bobbyacim View Post
Wrote to Roger F. and asked if his offer for a futures.io (formerly BMT) member to participate in his trading room was still available. He wrote me a very nice email, basically said that me looking in was not going to be enough for turning my trading around.
And made a very attractive offer if I became a paying client of his course. I am considering....

It was my understanding all Elite Members receive Felton Trading services free of charge.

I do not advise you to spend more money looking for yet another educator or another system, another holy grail, etc. Only once you take full and completely responsibility for your own trading, develop your own method, prove the method to yourself, and correct your own shortcomings will you be successful.

Mike

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  #107 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
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Big Mike View Post
It was my understanding all Elite Members receive Felton Trading services free of charge.

I do not advise you to spend more money looking for yet another educator or another system, another holy grail, etc. Only once you take full and completely responsibility for your own trading, develop your own method, prove the method to yourself, and correct your own shortcomings will you be successful.

Mike

Mike, you suck!!! Where were you 2.5 years ago while I was blowing a lot more $$$ than ol' Bobby here on trading education, rooms, indicators? Each new thing was gonna' make me rich. I read a lot of your stuff in the beginning and it really sunk in; needless to say I am on my way thanks to your futures.io (formerly BMT) forum conconction and the people that post and answer my questions.

All I can say is thanks and to your statement. I hope a NewB reads this and takes it all in, I don't wish the pain I have caused my family and my bank account on anyone. Someone elses stuff is OK for getting ideas, but ultimately you are right; you have to own PROVEN method YOU can trust.

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  #108 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
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Big Mike View Post
It was my understanding all Elite Members receive Felton Trading services free of charge.

...
Mike

sounds more like looking free of charge.

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  #109 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
Chicago, Illinois
 
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bobbyacim View Post
Hi Everybody!


As of last week, I took 18 LIVE trades on the 6E, was slightly up until recently, when I incurred two sessions of 4 losing trades at a time. I was trading 3 contracts, with a SL of 5 ticks per;

Hi, I'm glad to see you're still around. I thought maybe you'd finally thrown in the towel, which IMO would have been a pity if you were finally having some success. One quick comment about the quote above, and it's not really a big deal: when I was in the pit I would leave if I had three losing trades in a row. My logic was twofold: 1) my methodology just wasn't suited to the market conditions that day, or I was not 100%, or maybe I was just too inflexible in my attitude towards market direction that day, and 2) I didn't want to walk away with such a big loss that my confidence would suffer.

In the pit I had a real edge, and that edge should make me money on most trades. If I lost money three times in a row, my attitude was that there was something wrong with me that day, and even though I hadn't figured out yet what it was, I'd better get out before I lost even more.

Did your experience with revenge trading after some success with Market Profile sour you on the Profile, or did you conclude after further trading that the Profile doesn't "work"? I think MP does sometimes offer valuable information about the market, and though I've never been a rigorous user I've kept an eye on it while trading for most of the past 20 years, both in the pit and out of it. I knew Jim Dalton personally when he was co-authoring 'Mind Over Markets" (it may be a good book based on what people say about it, but I'm not impressed by the author) and he got me interested.

Someone of this forum, maybe even this thread, had a fabulous post describing how he became successful. Basically he said he religiously logged everything he was seeing happen in the markets as it was occurring, not just his trades and p/l but relationships between instruments, market response to events, everything, and after about 6 months it all started to make sense to him and he started to develop enough feel to be profitable. I know from your many posts that you're a very hard worker, and you might consider this "feel" or "free form" approach rather than trying to trade a system, but only after having done months of logging. Feel and tape reading were critically important to my success as a pit trader. I'll try to find the post and link to it.

Concerning revenge trading and frustration, this is something you have to get under control. Knowing your own tendencies and mental state may be the most important thing you know, and you have to know when a destructive mindset is interfering with your success or is likely to do so in the near future. For me, sometimes I was too stubborn, too locked into a particular outlook, other times trading angry, other times trading well but as a result starting to get careless. Sometimes we focus so hard on the markets we forget we have to focus on ourselves as well.

One thing you ought to do if you're not already doing it is, at the end of the day, like after dinner, think about all the trades you made, especially the losers, and look for mistakes. There has to be some time between when you did the trades and when you reflect. I can't tell you the number of times I was on the train home, down a lot of money, thinking I had done nothing wrong, it was just one of those days. Usually by the time I went to bed I had decided otherwise, that I had really screwed up, and I had identified the screwup.

I'll try to find that post. Good luck, glad to see you back.

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  #110 (permalink)
 Jeff Castille 
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cory View Post
sounds more like looking free of charge.

Felton Trading..........what is free to futures.io (formerly BMT) elite members?

Lifetime access to the live trading room......AND......the elite indicator downloads.....these include: Felton Cycle, Felton Momentum, Felton Trigger, Felton Bands, Felton Bar Counter, Felton Trend MA.

What is not free.........to anyone.......personal mentoring AND the indicator that identifies Roger's 5 set ups in realtime.

Clear?

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  #111 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
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Post # 98 on this thread.

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  #112 (permalink)
 Xeno 
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jstnbrg View Post
Hi, I'm glad to see you're still around. I thought maybe you'd finally thrown in the towel, which IMO would have been a pity if you were finally having some success.

I didn't see anywhere on this thread where he had success, although maybe I missed it. IMO that is the number one problem. If you want to be successful at trading, the very first thing you need to do is know how to define it, and he hasn't even got close.

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  #113 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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Jeff Castille View Post
Felton Trading..........what is free to futures.io (formerly BMT) elite members?

Lifetime access to the live trading room......AND......the elite indicator downloads.....these include: Felton Cycle, Felton Momentum, Felton Trigger, Felton Bands, Felton Bar Counter, Felton Trend MA.

What is not free.........to anyone.......personal mentoring AND the indicator that identifies Roger's 5 set ups in realtime.

Clear?

I think Felton also has regular training sessions outside of market hours, are those available free as well to futures.io (formerly BMT) users?

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  #114 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
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Xeno View Post
I didn't see anywhere on this thread where he had success, although maybe I missed it. IMO that is the number one problem. If you want to be successful at trading, the very first thing you need to do is know how to define it, and he hasn't even got close.

I don't disagree. Statistically 9 trades is nothing. But he's been working at this a long time, and something felt different to him that time (when he was studying Market Profile). Maybe Master Reza just got him in a more confident frame of mind. In my opinion his emotions are a giant part of his problem, and you can see it from his posts. He went from being defensive and sometimes hostile (in his other thread) to being manic in this thread followed by , I guess, enraged at himself. Most but not all of the best traders I've known are emotionally flat. (I did know one guy, a huge and wildly successful yield curve trader, who was just combative all the time, but at least he was consistent). When I'm trading well, that's my state of mind (flat), and I monitor my state of mind all the time for signs I'm getting emotional.

You can't discount the possibility that @bobbyacim just doesn't have the right emotional makeup to be a trader. It wouldn't mean he was an unsuccessful guy, but IMO it really does take a special type of personality to make it in this business. Hard work and desire alone won't cut it. I'd love to be a professional golfer, but it ain't gonna happen no matter how hard I try. And at some point you have to ask whether you're leaving too many other opportunities on the table while chasing a dream.

This is not intended in any way to be a negative post. Only @bobbyacim can know what his best options are, I just think he needs to consider all the alternatives.

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  #115 (permalink)
 Xeno 
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jstnbrg View Post
I don't disagree. Statistically 9 trades is nothing. But he's been working at this a long time, and something felt different to him that time (when he was studying Market Profile). Maybe Master Reza just got him in a more confident frame of mind. In my opinion his emotions are a giant part of his problem, and you can see it from his posts.

Agreed. I guess what I find odd is that I can understand emotions - they're hard to control, but to ignore hard facts as they've been presented on this thread, well that just smacks of utter denial.

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  #116 (permalink)
 Jeff Castille 
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monpere View Post
I think Felton also has regular training sessions outside of market hours, are those available free as well to futures.io (formerly BMT) users?

No.

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  #117 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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jstnbrg View Post
I don't disagree. Statistically 9 trades is nothing. But he's been working at this a long time, and something felt different to him that time (when he was studying Market Profile). Maybe Master Reza just got him in a more confident frame of mind. In my opinion his emotions are a giant part of his problem, and you can see it from his posts. He went from being defensive and sometimes hostile (in his other thread) to being manic in this thread followed by , I guess, enraged at himself. Most but not all of the best traders I've known are emotionally flat. (I did know one guy, a huge and wildly successful yield curve trader, who was just combative all the time, but at least he was consistent). When I'm trading well, that's my state of mind (flat), and I monitor my state of mind all the time for signs I'm getting emotional.

You can't discount the possibility that @ bobbyacim just doesn't have the right emotional makeup to be a trader. It wouldn't mean he was an unsuccessful guy, but IMO it really does take a special type of personality to make it in this business. Hard work and desire alone won't cut it. I'd love to be a professional golfer, but it ain't gonna happen no matter how hard I try. And at some point you have to ask whether you're leaving too many other opportunities on the table while chasing a dream.

This is not intended in any way to be a negative post. Only @ bobbyacim can know what his best options are, I just think he needs to consider all the alternatives.

If you find that you don't have the emotional requirement, or what I believe to be an inbred ability to be a discretionary trader, then I suggest looking for a strict historically proven mechanical method. This approach will remove the bulk of the natural emotional entanglements involved with making continual trading decisions, because all that will now built into the method itself and its expectancy. Then, the only factor left to deal with is, are you well capitalized enough for the chosen method.

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  #118 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
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monpere View Post
If you find that you don't have the emotional requirement, or what I believe to be an inbred ability to be a discretionary trader, then I suggest looking for a strict historically proven mechanical method. This approach will remove the bulk of the natural emotional entanglements involved with making continual trading decisions, and shift all that stuff to the expectancy of the method itself. Then, the only factor left to deal with is, are you well capitalized enough for the chosen method.

Got any suggestions?

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 monpere 
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Any method can be traded that way. Just break down your setups to a strict rule set, including strict trade management, entries, exits, stop movements. Backtest those rules with no deviation, and with discipline. If they prove themselves historically, then you can move forward trading those rules with discipline, no cherry picking, and no on the fly market analysis, interpretation, and egotistical shenanigans.

Take every signal that meets every rule of the method. If you notice any new patterns of failure in certain trades, then setup a filtering rule for these occurrences, then go back and re backtest the method with that new rule added, and if the new stats are positive, then you've just improved your method.

Just trust the stats you derived, knowing that you will expect x percent of losing trades in general. Don't fool around by thinking you can outdo the method by trying to cherry pick only good trades, or try to outperform the market through analysis, or try to outsmart those few special traders out there with that uncanny inbred ability to take your money every time you try to match wits with them.

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  #120 (permalink)
 bobbyacim 
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monpere View Post
If you find that you don't have the emotional requirement, or what I believe to be an inbred ability to be a discretionary trader, then I suggest looking for a strict historically proven mechanical method. This approach will remove the bulk of the natural emotional entanglements involved with making continual trading decisions, because all that will now built into the method itself and its expectancy. Then, the only factor left to deal with is, are you well capitalized enough for the chosen method.

Hi again,

INTERESTING viewpoints; all with a degree of validity. Hey, does anyone have a purely mechanical system that historically is proven to make money. I know the ones I have tried in the last 6 years (approx 20)and over 5000 hrs of chart time have worked for a little while, then market changes and system becomes unprofitable.

Recently I was even emulating/adapting the Felton style by trading hidden divergence only, even used some of his indicators he so generiously gave to this forum. A large number of them where profitable, until I started getting progressively more losers than winners and then not even 1:2 (risk-reward ratio) could'nt keep my account from being grind-down slowly but surely.


I 'm down 2k after 21 trades, I am stopping!!!!!
may recharge my account 1K, but will not trade live until/if I have a major break-thru.

Thanks again

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 jstnbrg 
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bobbyacim View Post
may recharge my account 1K, but will not trade live until/if I have a major break-thru.

Smart. My approach too. And "major breakthrough" should be the results of several hundred trades. Also, you mentioned in a previous post that you were trading 3 lots. Scaling is a great tool, but if your methodology is sound you should be able to make money trading 1 lots. Might be easier on the psyche, and will be less damaging to the account when you have strings of losers.

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 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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bobbyacim View Post
Hi again,

INTERESTING viewpoints; all with a degree of validity. Hey, does anyone have a purely mechanical system that historically is proven to make money. I know the ones I have tried in the last 6 years (approx 20)and over 5000 hrs of chart time have worked for a little while, then market changes and system becomes unprofitable.

Recently I was even emulating/adapting the Felton style by trading hidden divergence only, even used some of his indicators he so generiously gave to this forum. A large number of them where profitable, until I started getting progressively more losers than winners and then not even 1:2 (risk-reward ratio) could'nt keep my account from being grind-down slowly but surely.


I 'm down 2k after 21 trades, I am stopping!!!!!
may recharge my account 1K, but will not trade live until/if I have a major break-thru.

Thanks again

Have you tried basic divergence? That is all I trade. I was never a fan of hidden/reverse divergence, as I don't understand the concept behind it. I feel it is just a market side effect that just happens to be right some times. I think extended divergences are also a reach, because if you go back far enough on the charts you can always find a couple of peaks you can identify as extended divergence. I think the most reliable form of divergence is basic divergence. I like them nice and clean, no extraneous wiggles, and congestion inside them. But you have to be comfortable going against the trend, as the majority of them are. The ones with the trend are even more reliable, but they are few and far in between.

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bobbyacim View Post
Hi again,

INTERESTING viewpoints; all with a degree of validity. Hey, does anyone have a purely mechanical system that historically is proven to make money. I know the ones I have tried in the last 6 years (approx 20)and over 5000 hrs of chart time have worked for a little while, then market changes and system becomes unprofitable.

Recently I was even emulating/adapting the Felton style by trading hidden divergence only, even used some of his indicators he so generiously gave to this forum. A large number of them where profitable, until I started getting progressively more losers than winners and then not even 1:2 (risk-reward ratio) could'nt keep my account from being grind-down slowly but surely.


I 'm down 2k after 21 trades, I am stopping!!!!!
may recharge my account 1K, but will not trade live until/if I have a major break-thru.

Thanks again

At this point in time - would you consider dropping all of the indicators?

Move from mechanical to discretionary?

My humble opinion is that mechanical, indicator based trading is a pipe-dream and only discretionary trading can make you money. I could of course be wrong.

Still - it seems you think that you are not using the right indicators but perhaps you need to drop all the indicators and try to figure out why price moves the way it does.

Perhaps at this point - trainers will simply block your progress. Maybe you should take responsibility, eschew all trainers and tell yourself that you either do it on your own or not at all.

Just thinking out loud here.

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 bobbyacim 
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monpere View Post
Have you tried basic divergence? That is all I trade. I was never a fan of hidden/reverse divergence, as I don't understand the concept behind it. I feel it is just a market side effect that just happens to be right some times. I think extended divergences are also a reach, because if you go back far enough on the charts you can always find a couple of peaks you can identify as extended divergence. I think the most reliable form of divergence is basic divergence. I like them nice and clean, no extraneous wiggles, and congestion inside them. But you have to be comfortable going against the trend, as the majority of them are. The ones with the trend are even more reliable, but they are few and far in between.

Hi Monpere,
YES! Most Hidden divergences are few and far in between, there are times when I would get up at 4:00 A.M. EST
and not see one until 7:00 ....

I tried both types of divergences and found for me the hidden ones were more likely to follow through, perhaps only because they are always taken with the trend.

I really got good at spotting them, however either the market gradully changed or i started to slip because after a while it was harder to precisely time the turn, granted I was using the typical indicator for precise entry and as we all know, they are not reliable long term. maybe that is why even Roger F. re-vamps his divergence methodology ever- so- often.
I am open to ANY mechanical system that has a proven edge, as I am sure the rest of over 20,000 traders on this forum would also be interested.

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 bobbyacim 
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DionysusToast View Post
At this point in time - would you consider dropping all of the indicators?

Move from mechanical to discretionary?

My humble opinion is that mechanical, indicator based trading is a pipe-dream and only discretionary trading can make you money. I could of course be wrong.

Still - it seems you think that you are not using the right indicators but perhaps you need to drop all the indicators and try to figure out why price moves the way it does.

Perhaps at this point - trainers will simply block your progress. Maybe you should take responsibility, eschew all trainers and tell yourself that you either do it on your own or not at all.

Just thinking out loud here.

thank you for the suggestion, YES!, I want this so bad, and am so open minded, that I would even try VOODOO if it helped

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 forrestang 
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bobbyacim View Post
I am open to ANY mechanical system that has a proven edge, as I am sure the rest of over 20,000 traders on this forum would also be interested.

Just a thought, but.....

Monpere and I talked about this at length in a post somewhere here.

But being mechanical doesn't have to mean that ma1 crosses above ma2.

Mechanical can be as loose as observing how a squiggly line moves, or even one making a general statement such as, "When price hits support I buy, and when price hits resistance I sell."

What makes it mechanical, is that the trader has tuned the fuzzy logic in his brain to recognize a pattern that occurs over and over..... and just through the sheer repetition of observing that pattern so many times, to THAT individual it becomes unmistakable, and THAT person is able to become completely mechanical about deploying that strategy.

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 bobbyacim 
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forrestang View Post
Just a thought, but.....

Monpere and I talked about this at length in a post somewhere here.

But being mechanical doesn't have to mean that ma1 crosses above ma2.

Mechanical can be as loose as observing how a squiggly line moves, or even one making a general statement such as, "When price hits support I buy, and when price hits resistance I sell."

What makes it mechanical, is that the trader has tuned the fuzzy logic in his brain to recognize a pattern that occurs over and over..... and just through the sheer repetition of observing that pattern so many times, to THAT individual it becomes unmistakable, and THAT person is able to become completely mechanical about deploying that strategy.

I know exactly what you mean!
the closest consistantly profitable system I tried that left a lasting impression on me was a 20 page handout system that is called tradethebarsnotthestars for $1,200

It has rules and two indicators have to allign-up at the exact TRIGGER BAR!! there is a little discretion in the precise look of the pattern.

Simm trading this setup for over 200 trades showed it was more profitable than not, here was my problem with it:

Setup only appears ONCE a day, usually after watching screen for 4-5 hours.(got big circles under my eyes)
and minimum Stoploss was 8 ticks on the 6E. I thought I might do better with another setup with 5 ticks SL max.
However that has not worked out.

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 Trafford 
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DionysusToast View Post
At this point in time - would you consider dropping all of the indicators?

Move from mechanical to discretionary?

My humble opinion is that mechanical, indicator based trading is a pipe-dream and only discretionary trading can make you money. I could of course be wrong.

Still - it seems you think that you are not using the right indicators but perhaps you need to drop all the indicators and try to figure out why price moves the way it does.

Perhaps at this point - trainers will simply block your progress. Maybe you should take responsibility, eschew all trainers and tell yourself that you either do it on your own or not at all.

Just thinking out loud here.


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 monpere 
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DionysusToast View Post
At this point in time - would you consider dropping all of the indicators?

Move from mechanical to discretionary?

My humble opinion is that mechanical, indicator based trading is a pipe-dream and only discretionary trading can make you money. I could of course be wrong.

Still - it seems you think that you are not using the right indicators but perhaps you need to drop all the indicators and try to figure out why price moves the way it does.

Perhaps at this point - trainers will simply block your progress. Maybe you should take responsibility, eschew all trainers and tell yourself that you either do it on your own or not at all.

Just thinking out loud here.

That is pure VOODOO. I understand some believe in a discretionary approach, I am not knocking it, I know there are few talented guys out there who can succeed at it. But I'm tired of discretionary traders offering zen meditation advice instead of concrete help to people who are desperately seeking. There is nothing in the referenced post that can concretely help a person who is trying to find a trading approach.

- drop all the indicators and try to figure out why price moves the way it does
Psycho babble! How does that help a trader?

- tell yourself that you either do it on your own or not at all.
Psycho babble! How does that help trader?

I love it when discretionary traders spew out all this vague, ethereal, zen contemplations, that offer no concrete help whatsoever. I'm not trying to be Confucius, I am trying to trade. If you look at every post I have ever made in favor of a mechanical approach, they have always layed out a concrete plan a person can follow to start them on their way to investigate the approach, and offer actionable advice, short of saying go long when this bar does this.

Philosophical phrases about trading naked, and getting in touch with your discretionary inner being, and finding your chakra, etc. doesn't help anyone. It's about time discretionary traders step up to the plate and offer some actionable advice, rather then lessons in philosophy.

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 bluemele 
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My own belief is that you must listen to your GUT as to what you believe is best. Mechanical/Discretionary etc..

I know of no profitable mechanical traders that do not use some form of extended money management, but they could exist and if the emotional issues seem to be your problem then that is probably the way to go.

Go with your heart, everyone's path is different and do what appeals to you and what YOU need, whether that be swing trading, scalping, trend trading etc..

Journal, listen to yourself, and then when you decide. No questions, no qualms, no nothing, you do it until the earth blows up....

I believe if you follow that path you will find profitability. Horst was beat up pretty bad on this forum, and lately I have seen him struggle a bit with the ES (he is trying to conquer the beast that will let him trade unlimited contracts) and I remember his saying that he started trading a long time ago, but stuck with his system 5-6 years ago and it took him 3.5 years of doing the same system over and over and over again to be consistently profitable. Now he is a guy who can pull 3K to 20K out of the market daily (of course he has the occasional bad day) but my point is that it is VERY possible if you stay with what you feel is good AND YOU STICK WITH IT TILL DEATH DO YOU PART!

It doesn't matter what it is, mechanical vs. discretionary (I think this may be where you are leaning) but you have to decide that no matter what, no matter what, no matter what you will stick with it until you are the master!

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 monpere 
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bluemele View Post
My own belief is that you must listen to your GUT as to what you believe is best. Mechanical/Discretionary etc..

I know of no profitable mechanical traders that do not use some form of extended money management, but they could exist and if the emotional issues seem to be your problem then that is probably the way to go.

Go with your heart, everyone's path is different and do what appeals to you and what YOU need, whether that be swing trading, scalping, trend trading etc..

Journal, listen to yourself, and then when you decide. No questions, no qualms, no nothing, you do it until the earth blows up....

I believe if you follow that path you will find profitability. Horst was beat up pretty bad on this forum, and lately I have seen him struggle a bit with the ES (he is trying to conquer the beast that will let him trade unlimited contracts) and I remember his saying that he started trading a long time ago, but stuck with his system 5-6 years ago and it took him 3.5 years of doing the same system over and over and over again to be consistently profitable. Now he is a guy who can pull 3K to 20K out of the market daily (of course he has the occasional bad day) but my point is that it is VERY possible if you stay with what you feel is good AND YOU STICK WITH IT TILL DEATH DO YOU PART!

It doesn't matter what it is, mechanical vs. discretionary (I think this may be where you are leaning) but you have to decide that no matter what, no matter what, no matter what you will stick with it until you are the master!

A mechanical approach defines a trade from the moment you see the signal, to the moment, you hit your target, or your stop. This includes signal filtering, trade entry, money management, trade management, trade exit. Here's my mechanical method:

1. Take EVERY basic divergence that meets my basic divergence picture. (*** No cherry picking ***)
(I know I'm gonna be wrong 30% of the time, so the win/lose. fear/greed psychological aspect is pre-built into the method, it's no longer an issue)

2. Enter at the close of the trigger bar (On range bars, the entry price is known before the bar closes)

3. Put my stop behind the bar that just closed (On range bars , this is a fixed sized stop on every trade)

4. Put my target at 2 times the size of the stop. (On range bars, this is a fixed sized target on every trade)

5. Sit in the chair and watch, touch nothing until my target is hit, or my stop is hit, using an ATM

6. Repeat, exactly the same way, every single time.

The entire trade is methodical, signal, entry, trade management, exit. No zen meditation required.

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 jstnbrg 
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monpere View Post
I'm tired of discretionary traders offering zen meditation advice instead of concrete help to people who are desperately seeking.

An exercise that someone posted somewhere on this forum: flip a coin. Heads you're long at the offer, tails you're short at the bid. Trade out of it. Try to make money. Then do it again.

The concrete help is that here is an exercise to help you develop market awareness. It's not Zen, it's just practice. Obviously I'd recommend doing it in Sim. It's the reality for pit traders. You stand in the pit, 5 bid at 6 like everybody else. The broker next to you sells you 15 at 5 and you take it because you're job is servicing him and he's giving you an edge he could give to someone else. Everyone in the pit is leaning on one 500 lot bid Goldman's broker is holding, and he's 50 feet away from you and he's going to ignore your attempt to sell him 15 because it will mess up his count when everyone tries to hit him at once. So even though you have the edge there's no guarantee you can scratch this trade. Do you see if another local will take the 15 lot off your hands? Do you offer 15 at 6 as loud as you can? If you do, along with a lot of other small traders, some big trader is going to sense that the pit is long and take out that bid. It all depends how you feel about the market, and you develop this feel by constantly being put in the position of not being in control of whether you're long or short.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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 bluemele 
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monpere View Post
A mechanical approach defines a trade from the moment you see the signal, to the moment, you hit your target, or your stop. This includes signal filtering, trade entry, money management, trade management, trade exit. Here's my mechanical method:

1. Take EVERY basic divergence that meets my basic divergence picture. (*** No cherry picking ***)
(I know I'm gonna be wrong 30% of the time, so the win/lose. fear/greed psychological aspect is pre-built into the method, it's no longer an issue)

2. Enter at the close of the trigger bar (On range bars, the entry price is known before the bar closes)

3. Put my stop behind the bar that just closed (On range bars , this is a fixed sized stop on every trade)

4. Put my target at 2 times the size of the stop. (On range bars, this is a fixed sized target on every trade)

5. Sit in the chair and watch, touch nothing until my target is hit, or my stop is hit, using an ATM

6. Repeat, exactly the same way, every single time.

The entire trade is methodical, signal, entry, trade management, exit. No zen meditation required.

Well, if your divergence estimate is completely mechanical and leaves no interpretation for 'calculation' or evaluation, then yes, this in my book is a very good mechanical system.

But, is your evaluation of divergence mechanical or is it discretionary?

Just curious and off subject.

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 monpere 
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bluemele View Post
Well, if your divergence estimate is completely mechanical and leaves no interpretation for 'calculation' or evaluation, then yes, this in my book is a very good mechanical system.

But, is your evaluation of divergence mechanical or is it discretionary?

Just curious and off subject.

Yes the entry is also mechanical. It is defined with multiple steps of criteria that has to be met, but given that I only trade that setup (actually I trade 2 setups) I am so familiar with the setup that all those steps have now gelled into a 'picture' for me, that I can recognize instantly, and actually recognize as the setup or picture is forming, before it fully completes. Divergence generally announces itself multiple bars in advance. I will generally know I am probably going to get a signal several bars in advance, and on the trigger bar, I know exactly where my entry is going to be.

This is why I advise people not to trade 7 different setups, or continually analyze charts to see what patterns pops out at you. Just trade 1 or 2 setups, and know them inside and out. All you are doing when you are looking at a chart, is looking for that pattern, period. Be a stalker of these specific patterns, don't look for random patterns as targets of opportunity, they require to much effort in the heat of battle. This cuts down on the continual decision process you have go through for every type of trade, for each and every trade, thereby reducing the psychological effects of each trade. In general, I believe the less thinking you have to do while you are trading, the better. Do all your thinking before/after market, and build all that thinking into the method itself.

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iTrade2golf
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I would like to put in a little thought into this conversation.

Firstly being a discretionary trader does not mean Zen or Buddhism, it is merely someone who analyzes the current market conditions and trades accordingly...ie a trader who only takes Long positions when price is above the 200 period MA

A pure mechanical trader is someone who will trade the setup with no regards to others indicators. A discretionary trader is also a mechanical trader, if you are not then you are simply speculating and that is dangerous in this game.

A discretionary trader can choose to do a counter trend trade from a sloppy double top / Stochastic Divergence.

I will say this also, a beginning trader who is learning this craft needs to pick a setup and learn it so it is automatic and be able to trade if even if they are on the phone ordering pizza.

You will no be successful in this game if you are trying to learn every possible setup and you are trying to get every move out of a market. Learn to be pleased with consistent disciplined trades/profits and then you can call yourself a trader, until then you are a student.

This game is played from the neck up....

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 monpere 
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iTrade2golf View Post
I would like to put in a little thought into this conversation.

Firstly being a discretionary trader does not mean Zen or Buddhism, it is merely someone who analyzes the current market conditions and trades accordingly...ie a trader who only takes Long positions when price is above the 200 period MA

A pure mechanical trader is someone who will trade the setup with no regards to others indicators. A discretionary trader is also a mechanical trader, if you are not then you are simply speculating and that is dangerous in this game.

A discretionary trader can choose to do a counter trend trade from a sloppy double top / Stochastic Divergence.

I will say this also, a beginning trader who is learning this craft needs to pick a setup and learn it so it is automatic and be able to trade if even if they are on the phone ordering pizza.

You will no be successful in this game if you are trying to learn every possible setup and you are trying to get every move out of a market. Learn to be pleased with consistent disciplined trades/profits and then you can call yourself a trader, until then you are a student.

This game is played from the neck up....

Agreed, I think we are saying the same thing. The only thing is a mechanical trader will not take a sloppy double top divergence, unless he has a heading in his trading plan that says "ES 5 Minute Sloppy Double Top Divergence Entry, 51% Win Ratio @ 2:1 reward/risk: Enter short when...".

Anything that has not been verified historically to have an edge, and defined specifically how to be traded, is just plain out of the question. Why? That would be adding uncalculated risk to the method, if you haven't calculated your risk, you are gambling, whether you realize it or not, whether you understand it or not, whether you admit it or not. Maybe you are a good gambler, maybe you are not. Unfortunately, 95% generally find out they are not. I didn't like those odds, so I chose an approach that calculates my odds ahead of time, and will generally keep my performance close to those stats, by defining a trading process that is precise, measurable, and repeatable.

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 Cloudy 
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Here's a mechanical system I've heard good things about. "proFX". (edited: decided not to post the link after all after I read BM's post) If you want to you can look it up. I'll just say I've been trying to make my own mishmash of bits borrowed from other systems and trying to work, and so far it's a lot better than what I did before. I found being creative and trying to tweak things helps one understand their system better and possibly be more successful at it. For example, if the exit signal wasn't clear, maybe use this and that next time for a safer earlier exit to preserve profits..

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 Big Mike 
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Cloudy View Post
Here's a mechanical system I've heard good things about. "proFX".

IMO, the last thing the OP needs is yet another "system" which he follows. What he needs is to write his own method, his own ticket. Eliminate all third party, external factors. Those external indicators or systems vendors aren't funding his account, he is. He needs to completely own and be accountable for his trading.

I've said this before but it seems most people don't listen. Please consider that I might, just might, know a thing or two after running this forum and seeing so many traders repeat similar mistakes that lead to blowing out their accounts.

Whether or not you craft a fully automated system, a mechanical system, or a purely discretionary system is up to you. Each of us has opinions on which ones work the best. That is primarily irrelevant as well. All the truly matters is what works the best for you, the person trading it, the person funding the account.

Mike

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  #139 (permalink)
 Shivaya 
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Mike is 100% right.

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 bobbyacim 
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Big Mike View Post
IMO, the last thing the OP needs is yet another "system" which he follows. What he needs is to write his own method, his own ticket. Eliminate all third party, external factors. Those external indicators or systems vendors aren't funding his account, he is. He needs to completely own and be accountable for his trading.

I've said this before but it seems most people don't listen. Please consider that I might, just might, know a thing or two after running this forum and seeing so many traders repeat similar mistakes that lead to blowing out their accounts.

Whether or not you craft a fully automated system, a mechanical system, or a purely discretionary system is up to you. Each of us has opinions on which ones work the best. That is primarily irrelevant as well. All the truly matters is what works the best for you, the person trading it, the person funding the account.

Mike

Hi,

Since I am in "recovery mode" I went back to the system I talked about a few posts back, a while back I tested it with about 200 trades and it performed fairly well. It is a mechanical system 90% The trigger bar has a precision set of entry rules. This morning at 8:15 E.S.T. it has a beautiful move on the 6e. I took a screen shot in MS-word.
Can someone tell me how to paste it here?

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 forrestang 
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@bobbyacim

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 bobbyacim 
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here is the perfect trade!!!

the Stoch hook and cross MUST happen on the THIRD bar(trigger)
OR the CCI MUST CROSS ZERO ON THE THIRD BAR (trigger)
BUT, if both happen on th THIRD BAR at the same TIME, this trade has a 90% success rate!!!!!

Today, BOTH HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME, so this trade was a NO BRAINER!

Entry was at 1.4214 with a 5 tick stoploss minimum, you could have exited at 1.4238 when the stoch K & D lines TOUCHED!

For safety sake, I have a breakeven after 4 ticks profit, because I truely am in recovery mode; takes a lifetime to save enough money for a small account.

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 monpere 
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bobbyacim View Post
here is the perfect trade!!!

the Stoch hook and cross MUST happen on the THIRD bar(trigger)
OR the CCI MUST CROSS ZERO ON THE THIRD BAR (trigger)
BUT, if both happen on th THIRD BAR at the same TIME, this trade has a 90% success rate!!!!!

Today, BOTH HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME, so this trade was a NO BRAINER!

Great looking trade. But remember that mechanical trading is not just about the entry, it is also about risk, and that translates to stops and targets. So, before you enter, consider where your stop is going to be, and based on that, where your exit would have to be to make the trade worth taking. It's great to have a precise entry method, but if your exit method is not also pre-defined in a methodical way, as to where/when/why to take targets and move stops, then you are back to square one.

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 forrestang 
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bobbyacim View Post
here is the perfect trade!!!

the Stoch hook and cross MUST happen on the THIRD bar(trigger)
OR the CCI MUST CROSS ZERO ON THE THIRD BAR (trigger)
BUT, if both happen on th THIRD BAR at the same TIME, this trade has a 90% success rate!!!!!

Today, BOTH HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME, so this trade was a NO BRAINER!

Entry was at 1.4214 with a 5 tick stoploss minimum, you could have exited at 1.4238 when the stoch K & D lines TOUCHED!

For safety sake, I have a breakeven after 4 ticks profit, because I truely am in recovery mode; takes a lifetime to save enough money for a small account.

Just an idea, have you thought about scripting that entry criteria?

It would be pretty easy to do....

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 Rayzor 
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monpere View Post
Great looking trade. But remember that mechanical trading is not just about the entry, it is also about risk, and that translates to stops and targets. So, before you enter, consider where your stop is going to be, and based on that, where your exit would have to be to make the trade worth taking. It's great to have a precise entry method, but if your exit method is not also pre-defined in a methodical way, as to where/when/why to take targets and move stops, then you are back to square one.

Good point Monepere; Bobby, search the forum for FP PriceBox. I use this little box to make sure I never (well almost never) exceed my stop limits.

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 bobbyacim 
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Good point Monepere; Bobby, search the forum for FP PriceBox. I use this little box to make sure I never (well almost never) exceed my stop limits.

I am in recover-mode and I CANNOT BLOW MY LITTLE ACCOUNT
This is a system/method I have had for a long time, a while back I ran approx 200 Sim trades and it was fairly profitable on a consistant basis. Why do I say "fairly"?
Because it is 90% mechanical- but the pattern you are looking for has some judgement to it in order to spot the EXACT pattern. thats why it can not be coded.

However, I'm sure you might agree,... don't mine a little judgement if the setup has a high probability of success!
PLEASE HELP, I don't know how to do a statistical backtest in ninjatrader. If someone would volunteer to do so, they can private message me and I will be glad to send then an exact copy of the system rules.

If it proves-out that the setup is profitable in backtesting, maybe we can ALL benefit from this setup. Also The system calls for an 8 tick SL minimum ( which is something I have had problems with from the beginning) if someone could figure out the optimum inital Stoploss based on ATR, Price Action, etc..

Basically I am inviting the "heavy hitters" on this forum for the knowledge and talent I do not possesses.

bye

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 monpere 
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bobbyacim View Post
I am in recover-mode and I CANNOT BLOW MY LITTLE ACCOUNT
This is a system/method I have had for a long time, a while back I ran approx 200 Sim trades and it was fairly profitable on a consistant basis. Why do I say "fairly"?
Because it is 90% mechanical- but the pattern you are looking for has some judgement to it in order to spot the EXACT pattern. thats why it can not be coded.

However, I'm sure you might agree,... don't mine a little judgement if the setup has a high probability of success!
PLEASE HELP, I don't know how to do a statistical backtest in ninjatrader. If someone would volunteer to do so, they can private message me and I will be glad to send then an exact copy of the system rules.

If it proves-out that the setup is profitable in backtesting, maybe we can ALL benefit from this setup. Also The system calls for an 8 tick SL minimum ( which is something I have had problems with from the beginning) if someone could figure out the optimum inital Stoploss based on ATR, Price Action, etc..

Basically I am inviting the "heavy hitters" on this forum for the knowledge and talent I do not possesses.

bye

If if can't be coded, then it can't be backtested programmatically. But you should be able to backtest it manually. Load up your chart with as much historical data as you need, and start scanning page by page looking for the patterns, and marking them up on the chart as you find them. Of course that will be tedious and time consuming, but it will be a good exercise. It will train your eye to recognize the setups easily, and might also reveal other nuances about the pattern that may be beneficial.

I have not been able to fully code my setups either, so my backtesting is manual, and very simple. Given that I trade with a fix stop and fixed target. All I need to know is number of winners and number of losers, so I scan the charts and markup winners and losers and keeping count. I actually continually do that exercise every day after market for all my favorite instruments for that trading day.

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  #148 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Sounds like you're doing good with your system at this point. But I wonder, that 20 page handout cost $1200?? I've seen systems like that for free on various MT4 sites. The system I mentioned cost less than $150. But I've been there too. I've wasted $2k on a charting software for Fibonacci that could easily be duplicated with custom indicators on NT today. It did not even draw the waves for me. I had to pick the points. Not saying your system is bunk, on the contrary, I personally find it looks effective. CCI coupled with Stoch is a good momentum indicating combo, plus the bounce off a kelter line. Just amazed the vendor could sell that for over $1k on relatively common indicators..

About my previous post. I kept hearing you asking for a mechanical system that works, that "20,000" other people would be interested, and that even "VOODOO" would be acceptable. (Not that I would recommend; I'd stay far clear of voodoo, ouiji boards and like as they open the gates to demonic influences imo.) I'm still new on this forum(a week) so forgive me BM and others, if I was just trying to be helpful and felt compelled to reply to those pleading posts. Now I understand the tone of this forum gives a lot of weight to trading psychology as well and I agree that's a good thing. Anyways, it seems like you already had a good mechanical system working for you already and that you are in the process of learning to trust it. (I'm still curious about what happened with master Reza's market profile btw.)

For backtesting on NT, I'm probably not alone in saying that you need to implement the rules in an NT7 strategy. The NT7 help guide has tutorials on setting up a strategy step by step which you can then backtest. Good luck.

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 Trafford 
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bobbyacim View Post
here is the perfect trade!!!

the Stoch hook and cross MUST happen on the THIRD bar(trigger)
OR the CCI MUST CROSS ZERO ON THE THIRD BAR (trigger)
BUT, if both happen on th THIRD BAR at the same TIME, this trade has a 90% success rate!!!!!

Today, BOTH HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME, so this trade was a NO BRAINER!

Entry was at 1.4214 with a 5 tick stoploss minimum, you could have exited at 1.4238 when the stoch K & D lines TOUCHED!

For safety sake, I have a breakeven after 4 ticks profit, because I truely am in recovery mode; takes a lifetime to save enough money for a small account.

Bobby,

One one hand its is strange that you have gone from using MP to indicators, but not that strange I guess if it did not work for you. I went from using indicators to MP to indicators to MP to indicators then to MP, indicators, Price Action, and Order flow. The best use of MP in my humble opinion is that it shows you structure of the market and from the structure you look for opportunities in which to trade, that is it, it is the markets live database not a trading system. It allows you to see the market in 3D, price develops on a vertical and horizontal axis. It allows you to see high volume nodes, single prints, buying tails and selling tales, balance and imbalance as well as previous value areas and developing value areas. But I struggled to trade using MP alone. You need other tools to make trade decisions A number of people on this site have very good tools such as Fat Tails, GOMI, and DionysusToast, and FulcrumTrader(Chris) just to mention a few. Teh key is as Mike has alluded to is to make them your own that may sound esoteric but it its a bit like that. I would also read Outlier by Malcolm Gladweel and also Blink.

Good luck and never give up success is alawys around the corner, I just do not know whcih corner.

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 bobbyacim 
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Trafford View Post
Bobby,

One one hand its is strange that you have gone from using MP to indicators, but not that strange I guess if it did not work for you. I went from using indicators to MP to indicators to MP to indicators then to MP, indicators, Price Action, and Order flow. The best use of MP in my humble opinion is that it shows you structure of the market and from the structure you look for opportunities in which to trade, that is it, it is the markets live database not a trading system. It allows you to see the market in 3D, price develops on a vertical and horizontal axis. It allows you to see high volume nodes, single prints, buying tails and selling tales, balance and imbalance as well as previous value areas and developing value areas. But I struggled to trade using MP alone. You need other tools to make trade decisions A number of people on this site have very good tools such as Fat Tails, GOMI, and DionysusToast, and FulcrumTrader(Chris) just to mention a few. Teh key is as Mike has alluded to is to make them your own that may sound esoteric but it its a bit like that. I would also read Outlier by Malcolm Gladweel and also Blink.

Good luck and never give up success is alawys around the corner, I just do not know whcih corner.

Thanks for the confidence boost
Yes, I did like Market profile for the top down view it offered of the market in play, master Reza was using it solely for trading, however by itself it was not enough for me to trade succesfully. Went back to the books and read Peter Steidlmayer' original course(from the 1980's) and even he stated that in of itself market profile was NOT ENOUGH to trade off of.

Hey, I did 21 Live trades with a stoploss of $180 for 3 contracts + commision and I only got into trouble within the last 8 trades.

I sincerely believe we all have it in us to succeed at this game, the question is when!

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 bobbyacim 
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Cloudy View Post
Sounds like you're doing good with your system at this point. But I wonder, that 20 page handout cost $1200?? I've seen systems like that for free on various MT4 sites. The system I mentioned cost less than $150. But I've been there too. I've wasted $2k on a charting software for Fibonacci that could easily be duplicated with custom indicators on NT today. It did not even draw the waves for me. I had to pick the points. Not saying your system is bunk, on the contrary, I personally find it looks effective. CCI coupled with Stoch is a good momentum indicating combo, plus the bounce off a kelter line. Just amazed the vendor could sell that for over $1k on relatively common indicators..

About my previous post. I kept hearing you asking for a mechanical system that works, that "20,000" other people would be interested, and that even "VOODOO" would be acceptable. (Not that I would recommend; I'd stay far clear of voodoo, ouiji boards and like as they open the gates to demonic influences imo.) I'm still new on this forum(a week) so forgive me BM and others, if I was just trying to be helpful and felt compelled to reply to those pleading posts. Now I understand the tone of this forum gives a lot of weight to trading psychology as well and I agree that's a good thing. Anyways, it seems like you already had a good mechanical system working for you already and that you are in the process of learning to trust it. (I'm still curious about what happened with master Reza's market profile btw.)

For backtesting on NT, I'm probably not alone in saying that you need to implement the rules in an NT7 strategy. The NT7 help guide has tutorials on setting up a strategy step by step which you can then backtest. Good luck.

Actually the Stoch AND OR CCI are only there for 'timing" however I do wait until the Stoch has reached the 80% level before accepting any HOOK & CROSS signals, this way I take into account the MOMENTUM AS WELL.

Yes, there are courses out there for thousand$$$ that consist of nothing more that a re-combination of your standard chart indicators. I have bought many, how do you think I spent $10,000 in education.
The best explanation/analogy I got from a vendor when I tried to return some of this stuff was; Pizza only has two basic ingredients, sauce and cheese, however in the right proportions, it can be converted into a GREAT PIZZA receipe or it can turn out lousy- STill only two ingredients!

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iTrade2golf
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bobbyacim: I read this thread because of the title and I seen you mention how Market Profile is your new proven method to add to your system, and then you are talking hidden divergence. And then that doesn't work for you.

IMHO I think you need to look within yourself for improvements first. You said MP works but it only has one setup daily and it takes 4 or 5 hours of waiting for the setup. This sounds like you have no patience to wait for a setup to happen completely, length of time has nothing to do with setups. You should work on you patience, discipline and focus. You may not be taking the correct approach to successful trading for YOU. You must build your system around your strengths and WEAKNESSES. If you are someone who needs to be in the market regularly and are unable to wait an hour or so, then maybe u need to be a scalper.

You are spending all this money buying methods that worked for others and their personality traits, that is where you are going wrong, its not the indicators and setups of choice. If you are anxious to get into the market when the bell rings then you need to design a scalping system that lets you trade 10-20 times a day, more or less.

I think your frustration comes from within due to not understanding yourself FULLY and your lack of confidence in a system you develop. I noticed you mentioned that MP requires an 8 Ticks stop and you wanted to move it to 5 Ticks so at that moment I knew MP was not for you. If you are scared to loose money in this game then you have failed before you begin.

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 bobbyacim 
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iTrade2golf View Post
bobbyacim: I read this thread because of the title and I seen you mention how Market Profile is your new proven method to add to your system, and then you are talking hidden divergence. And then that doesn't work for you.

IMHO I think you need to look within yourself for improvements first. You said MP works but it only has one setup daily and it takes 4 or 5 hours of waiting for the setup. This sounds like you have no patience to wait for a setup to happen completely, length of time has nothing to do with setups. You should work on you patience, discipline and focus. You may not be taking the correct approach to successful trading for YOU. You must build your system around your strengths and WEAKNESSES. If you are someone who needs to be in the market regularly and are unable to wait an hour or so, then maybe u need to be a scalper.

You are spending all this money buying methods that worked for others and their personality traits, that is where you are going wrong, its not the indicators and setups of choice. If you are anxious to get into the market when the bell rings then you need to design a scalping system that lets you trade 10-20 times a day, more or less.

I think your frustration comes from within due to not understanding yourself FULLY and your lack of confidence in a system you develop. I noticed you mentioned that MP requires an 8 Ticks stop and you wanted to move it to 5 Ticks so at that moment I knew MP was not for you. If you are scared to loose money in this game then you have failed before you begin.

Thank you for the obervations, really really appreciated it!!
its ironic, you speak of my need to cultivate patience

PLEASE "PATIENTLY" RE-READ MY PRIOR POSTING. The system I was refering to was this one, NOT M.P.

This is the system that only has maybe 1-2 trades in 4-5 hours of the day, and this is the system that requires 8 tick stop minimum as per the author.

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iTrade2golf
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bobbyacim View Post
Thank you for the obervations, really really appreciated it!!
its ironic, you speak of my need to cultivate patience

PLEASE "PATIENTLY" RE-READ MY PRIOR POSTING. The system I was refering to was this one, NOT M.P.

This is the system that only has maybe 1-2 trades in 4-5 hours of the day, and this is the system that requires 8 tick stop minimum as per the author.

Which ever method you were referring to was not the point, you are missing the point which is to work more on you self and less on other peoples method or systems and you will get to where you want to be quicker and with less expense.

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 Trafford 
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bobbyacim View Post
Thank you for the obervations, really really appreciated it!!
its ironic, you speak of my need to cultivate patience

PLEASE "PATIENTLY" RE-READ MY PRIOR POSTING. The system I was refering to was this one, NOT M.P.

This is the system that only has maybe 1-2 trades in 4-5 hours of the day, and this is the system that requires 8 tick stop minimum as per the author.


I have probably spent as much as you have if not more but what I know now is priceless. I did a MP course with Dalton and to be honest sometimes he did lose me but sometimes I got it. One thing he said to me was place a pin on your chart where you took your trades, more often than not I had terrible trade location. I sold the low when the smart money was buying, I bought the high when others were selling. Why, because I felt comfortable entering when the selling was under way not realizing you have to do the uncomfortable things in trading to make money and succeed. It is a journey, for some you have to try every single indicator and system to prove one thing, that they don't work and there is know easy ride but what you do gain is an education that is priceless and soon you will have the edge, your personal casino. You will gain a skill others will pay a fortune for.

He also said bad trades keep you of good trades - so true!

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 Rayzor 
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iTrade2golf View Post
Which ever method you were referring to was not the point, you are missing the point which is to work more on you self and less on other peoples method or systems and you will get to where you want to be quicker and with less expense.


Nobody ever want s talk about this. Working on yourself is more important than any method that sells for thousands of dollars. I have spent far more $$ and time than Bobby, and it wasn't until I realized that I was the problem that I could begin to move forward. I used to be a raging drunk, did rehab, meetings, and all that fun stuff. Everything I learned about patience and CONTROLLING myself I learned in those two environments.

I am firmly convinced that there is not an educator, magic indicator, or trading room out there that can cure people of fear of loss. I was once told that trading cannot be taught, it must be caught; either you get it or you don't. I didn't get it for a long time, I went from method to method to method with no success. I stumbled onto this site and read where mike said about the Psycology & Money Management section "
This forum is where successful traders spend most of their time and where struggling traders never visit. The psychology and money management forum is where you learn to become a profitable day trader". I find this statement to be very true.

Bobby, you asked me on the phone yesterday if I see myself as one of those people being profitable year after year; I can't answer that question because I can't see into the future. I don't care how it all shakes out, we are all just a few trades away from humility. If it blows up tomorrow I could care less, all I have to work with is what I have to work with and the current day in which I choose to live. Worse comes to worse I can always go back to work; the last two years has been painful, but it gave me more time with my family that I lost as a miserable drunk. I will say this, the more ANYONE worries about what they cannot control the worse things will get, I didn't figure this out until I dried out.

Just my two-cent rantings

Ray

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 bobbyacim 
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Rayzor View Post
Nobody ever want s talk about this. Working on yourself is more important than any method that sells for thousands of dollars. I have spent far more $$ and time than Bobby, and it wasn't until I realized that I was the problem that I could begin to move forward. I used to be a raging drunk, did rehab, meetings, and all that fun stuff. Everything I learned about patience and CONTROLLING myself I learned in those two environments.

I am firmly convinced that there is not an educator, magic indicator, or trading room out there that can cure people of fear of loss. I was once told that trading cannot be taught, it must be caught; either you get it or you don't. I didn't get it for a long time, I went from method to method to method with no success. I stumbled onto this site and read where mike said about the Psycology & Money Management section "
This forum is where successful traders spend most of their time and where struggling traders never visit. The psychology and money management forum is where you learn to become a profitable day trader". I find this statement to be very true.

Bobby, you asked me on the phone yesterday if I see myself as one of those people being profitable year after year; I can't answer that question because I can't see into the future. I don't care how it all shakes out, we are all just a few trades away from humility. If it blows up tomorrow I could care less, all I have to work with is what I have to work with and the current day in which I choose to live. Worse comes to worse I can always go back to work; the last two years has been painful, but it gave me more time with my family that I lost as a miserable drunk. I will say this, the more ANYONE worries about what they cannot control the worse things will get, I didn't figure this out until I dried out.

Just my two-cent rantings

Ray

Hi RAY!

GREAT piece of advice, VERY inspiring.
I need inspiration right now.

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 Rayzor 
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bobbyacim View Post
Hi RAY!

GREAT piece of advice, VERY inspiring.
I need inspiration right now.

When's the last time you took a break from trading? I find it helps to periodically take time off without even thinking about trading. Try one week off without looking or talking about trading, it may help you clear your head, it does wonders for me.

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 bobbyacim 
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iTrade2golf View Post
Which ever method you were referring to was not the point, you are missing the point which is to work more on you self and less on other peoples method or systems and you will get to where you want to be quicker and with less expense.

Yes, I see your larger point!

I have sometimes waited from 5:30 A.M. til 12:00 noon for one very precise trade. but its a real killer to wait so long, afterwards I notice I can not focus my eyes very well until I re-group
Since I am now in recovery mode, I guess those waiting days are back!

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 monpere 
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Hi RAY!

GREAT piece of advice, VERY inspiring.
I need inspiration right now.

There has been 17 people in the last 5 post that have said "Work on Yourself". I guess that means, go to the gym 3 times a week, hire a personal trainer, buy some Tony Robbins tapes, eat more fiber, drink 8 glasses of water a day, and don't have unprotected sex. If that is not what these guys mean, then maybe they can elaborate.

You don't need inspiration right now. Inspiration + $1.25 will buy you a nice cup of coffe. Here are some tangible suggestions. I think you need 2 things:

1. Find a method you have confidence in.
2. Trade it with risk capital.

You achieve the 1st one by verifying the method works historically. It seems your history has been to buy a system, get excited, throw real money in the market with that system based on the vendor's word that the system works. You need to look historically for yourself to verify that the vendor was telling you the truth. Once you have verified that, then trade it sim for a while to internalize that method. This is the process that will bring you the proper 'confidence' in the method, rather then trusting the advertising hype.

The 2nd point may be the difficult part. Trade with risk capital. If you are trading scared money, you will have a hard time succeeding, because that is the number one psychological barrier a trader can face, making trading decisions based on fear of losing any money that will adversely affect your life. It is not all lost though, because if you have achieved point #1, confidence in your system, then point #2 becomes less of an issue, as you will have less of the 'fear' psychological barrier.

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 bobbyacim 
new york
 
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Trafford View Post
I have probably spent as much as you have if not more but what I know now is priceless. I did a MP course with Dalton and to be honest sometimes he did lose me but sometimes I got it. One thing he said to me was place a pin on your chart where you took your trades, more often than not I had terrible trade location. I sold the low when the smart money was buying, I bought the high when others were selling. Why, because I felt comfortable entering when the selling was under way not realizing you have to do the uncomfortable things in trading to make money and succeed. It is a journey, for some you have to try every single indicator and system to prove one thing, that they don't work and there is know easy ride but what you do gain is an education that is priceless and soon you will have the edge, your personal casino. You will gain a skill others will pay a fortune for.

He also said bad trades keep you of good trades - so true!

Your right about "gaining a skill others will pay a fortune for"

hey, any trader I ever came across who actually could produce a broker statement of live, succesful trades was asking for hundreds an hour to do one-on-one tutoring.

Succesful and consistantly profitable traders walk on air. Imagine, being able to create income anywere in the WORLD at any time- Income on demand!!!

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 forrestang 
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monpere View Post

You achieve the 1st one by verifying the method works historically. It seems your history has been to buy a system, get excited, throw real money in the market with that system based on the vendor's word that the system works. You need to look historically for yourself to verify that the vendor was telling you the truth. Once you have verified that, then trade it sim for a while to internalize that method. This is the process that will bring you the proper 'confidence' in the method, rather then trusting the advertising hype.

Just my thoughts since this is a discussion. Sometimes I feel like Monpere is typing out my thoughts on these particular matters.

One Day, I am going to create a post somewhere, probably in the psychology section about every supposed method I've purchased with regards to trading, and my thoughts on that method. I think this above portion in red is key!!!!

There was this one system I purchased, and luckily I never lost a dime trading it live.... as I did just what Monpere suggested here. Not only did I spend probably several hundred hours backtesting it over historical data, I walked it forward for a many weeks and achieved about the same results.

What were those results? Complete and utter b.s.!!!! I was sooooo frustrated. The system was clearly defined and unmistakable about what to do. But the performance was atrocious. Now indicators on different machines, with different data feeds are never going to line up. You just have to deal with your flow of signal. So I didn't expect everything to line up with what they were claiming. BUt the problem was my results were literally 180 degrees out of phase with what they were claiming. They were obviously giving themselves the best possible fills, leaving things out etc. They would have a day claiming the system made $500 for that day. My results where -$340 or so.

And sure our entries and exits could differ slightly, but that type of CONSISTANT disparity I saw was frustrating.

Now, while I had obviously wasted another $1500 on this method, luckily it was all I wasted. I was able to verify that this system was completely useless. So, this is just my experience.

If you can prove to yourself that a method works via historical backtesting, and then walking it forward for a time..... that's what you probably need more than anything else.

I had similar worries as you, but I may have come to a different conclusion a long time ago as to what my problems are. I started a thread HERE in an attempt to solve one of those issues. Which was OBJECTIVITY in my trading. The conclusion that I had come to a loooong while ago where 2 main issues........

KNOWING what to do in any situation, and KNOWING how your method performs imo are the two things that you have to sort out. Everything else is just noise.

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  #163 (permalink)
 bobbyacim 
new york
 
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monpere View Post
There has been 17 people in the last 5 post that have said "Work on Yourself". I guess that means, go to the gym 3 times a week, hire a personal trainer, buy some Tony Robbins tapes, eat more fiber, drink 8 glasses of water a day, and don't have unprotected sex. If that is not what these guys mean, then maybe they can elaborate.

You don't need inspiration right now. Inspiration + $1.25 will buy you a nice cup of coffe. Here are some tangible suggestions. I think you need 2 things:

1. Find a method you have confidence in.
2. Trade it with risk capital.

You achieve the 1st one by verifying the method works historically. It seems your history has been to buy a system, get excited, throw real money in the market with that system based on the vendor's word that the system works. You need to look historically for yourself to verify that the vendor was telling you the truth. Once you have verified that, then trade it sim for a while to internalize that method. This is the process that will bring you the proper 'confidence' in the method, rather then trusting the advertising hype.

The 2nd point may be the difficult part. Trade with risk capital. If you are trading scared money, you will have a hard time succeeding, because that is the number one psychological barrier a trader can face, making trading decisions based on fear of losing any money that will adversely affect your life. It is not all lost though, because if you have achieved point #1, confidence in your system, then point #2 becomes less of an issue, as you will have less of the 'fear' psychological barrier.

WOW!! Monpere, I don't think anyone can say it better- Thank you for getiing to the crux of the issue with laser precision.

Too bad this setup I have returned to can not be backtested automatically, cause as you have explained; if it can not be coded, it can not be auto backtested. I did take about 200 Sim trades with it a while back with good results.

From what your telling me, lots of Vendors who's system is mechanical with a dash of subjectivity have the perfect "out" for not giving you your money back. Cause if it can't be auto backtested, then they can say that "you are the problem not the system"

You know, Traders international, R. felton, etc all have systems that are almost all mechananical, but with a sprinkle of subjectivity, thats whey they can not just give you a manual, they have to show you the NUANCE of the system(subjective)

So when it does not work, the problem is you!! OUCH....





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  #164 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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bobbyacim View Post
WOW!! Monpere, I don't think anyone can say it better- Thank you for getiing to the crux of the issue with laser precision.

Too bad this setup I have returned to can not be backtested automatically, cause as you have explained; if it can not be coded, it can not be auto backtested. I did take about 200 Sim trades with it a while back with good results.

From what your telling me, lots of Vendors who's system is mechanical with a dash of subjectivity have the perfect "out" for not giving you your money back. Cause if it can't be auto backtested, then they can say that "you are the problem not the system"

You know, Traders international, R. felton, etc all have systems that are almost all mechananical, but with a sprinkle of subjectivity, thats whey they can not just give you a manual, they have to show you the NUANCE of the system(subjective)

So when it does not work, the problem is you!! OUCH....

Exactly, the moment a vendor mentions the word discretionary, then if you make money, then it is because of their awesome system, but if you lose money, the problem will always be you, not their system. It is a win-win situation for them.

You should approach any discretionary system you buy as a learning opportunity, not as a money press. Even though a system may not make money for you, you may be able to learn a couple of good nuggets from it, that you might use in your own personally derived system later on. I didn't pay $10k for systems, I only paid $2500 for one system, and it was a piece of crap, but I did learn a couple of things in the process of learning and attending the associated trading room. Everything else I learned was on free trials to various rooms, where I learned different market concepts. I am mainly a divergence trader, and I was introduced to divergence in a Felton webinar, and learned the basics of it in the Felton free trial. I never did pay a dime to Felton... I guess I should send him a thank you card now or something

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 Big Mike 
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monpere View Post
There has been 17 people in the last 5 post that have said "Work on Yourself". I guess that means, go to the gym 3 times a week, hire a personal trainer, buy some Tony Robbins tapes, eat more fiber, drink 8 glasses of water a day, and don't have unprotected sex. If that is not what these guys mean, then maybe they can elaborate.

No, what it means is stop looking for an indicator setup to make you profitable. Stop looking for a system to make you profitable. Stop looking for a handbook to make you profitable. Stop looking for a chart template to make you profitable. Stop looking for a trading room to make you profitable.

What it means is start looking at yourself. Look at your own actions. How about starting with the obsession of chasing the holy grail. How's that working out for you? I would suggest you lay it all out. Get a piece of paper, start a word document, or whatever and think back to the first day you started trading. Then start writing stuff down that you've done, decisions that you've made. Write down what you thought was going to happen, and what actually did happen.

At the end of the paper you will likely find that you've not done much at all for yourself, but instead you've been searching and searching and searching to find someone else to do it for you. Let me be clear, reading books is not doing it yourself.

Working on yourself means to know yourself, your personality, your traits, your strengths, your weaknesses. Devise a trading method that is your own. Know your method. Know what you want to avoid, know what you want to capitalize on. You don't need vendors for this, you are simply trading their method - not your own.

Ask yourself, are you able to trade in sim mode profitability? Have you even tried recently, or has everything been cash? That itself is a sign of a major problem, if after huge losses you are still trading cash. But, if you have tried sim and you are profitable, then you've proven that the weak spot is on your execution - and not on the combination of methodologies being used.

Focus on execution. The best way to do this is to start a trade journal. I do not mean a spreadsheet full of statistics. I mean that when you place a trade, you write down instantly your reason for taking the trade. I'm talking about 5 or 6 words, it will take 5 or 10 seconds. Then when you exit the trade, write down why you exited. It is important to do it as quickly as possible next to the actual entry/exit.

After you've done this dozens or hundreds of times, you will have so much information that you will likely have several major epiphanies on how to move forward. You'll see all kinds of behavior patterns, strengths, weaknesses, based on your own reading of the market. You'll see patterns that you won't believe and never previously considered. All of which is where you can work on yourself to improve your trading.

You are also still trading futures, and apparently 3 contracts, if I understand correctly. Why? Go open a mini or micro forex account with MB Trading or another very reputable brokerage. Set your risk to $1/pip at maximum. Don't for an instant think that you can't make money this way. What we need you to do is stop losing money. Making money is a long way away from where you are today.

Mike

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  #166 (permalink)
 bobbyacim 
new york
 
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Big Mike View Post
No, what it means is stop looking for an indicator setup to make you profitable. Stop looking for a system to make you profitable. Stop looking for a handbook to make you profitable. Stop looking for a chart template to make you profitable. Stop looking for a trading room to make you profitable.

What it means is start looking at yourself. Look at your own actions. How about starting with the obsession of chasing the holy grail. How's that working out for you? I would suggest you lay it all out. Get a piece of paper, start a word document, or whatever and think back to the first day you started trading. Then start writing stuff down that you've done, decisions that you've made. Write down what you thought was going to happen, and what actually did happen.

At the end of the paper you will likely find that you've not done much at all for yourself, but instead you've been searching and searching and searching to find someone else to do it for you. Let me be clear, reading books is not doing it yourself.

Working on yourself means to know yourself, your personality, your traits, your strengths, your weaknesses. Devise a trading method that is your own. Know your method. Know what you want to avoid, know what you want to capitalize on. You don't need vendors for this, you are simply trading their method - not your own.

Ask yourself, are you able to trade in sim mode profitability? Have you even tried recently, or has everything been cash? That itself is a sign of a major problem, if after huge losses you are still trading cash. But, if you have tried sim and you are profitable, then you've proven that the weak spot is on your execution - and not on the combination of methodologies being used.

Focus on execution. The best way to do this is to start a trade journal. I do not mean a spreadsheet full of statistics. I mean that when you place a trade, you write down instantly your reason for taking the trade. I'm talking about 5 or 6 words, it will take 5 or 10 seconds. Then when you exit the trade, write down why you exited. It is important to do it as quickly as possible next to the actual entry/exit.

After you've done this dozens or hundreds of times, you will have so much information that you will likely have several major epiphanies on how to move forward. You'll see all kinds of behavior patterns, strengths, weaknesses, based on your own reading of the market. You'll see patterns that you won't believe and never previously considered. All of which is where you can work on yourself to improve your trading.

You are also still trading futures, and apparently 3 contracts, if I understand correctly. Why? Go open a mini or micro forex account with MB Trading or another very reputable brokerage. Set your risk to $1/pip at maximum. Don't for an instant think that you can't make money this way. What we need you to do is stop losing money. Making money is a long way away from where you are today.

Mike

Dear Big Mike,

I read your post TWICE!

There was just too much wisdom for my little brain to digest on the first read.

I am assimilating it all, slowly, painfully slowly but surely.

Thanks to you and everyone else here on this forum, my new game plan will be:

No more holy grail chasing, that's why I turned down Roger Felton most gracias discounted offer to buy into his course.

I 've gone back to this system that is a Price-based pattern, the indicators are only there for timing.

Recently started a personal journal of my personality strengths and weaknesses, which will help me determine what kind of trading style I am best suited for or if I'm even suited for trading!

Although I have done close to 200 Sim trades with this system, I will refrain from going live with more than ONE contract untilI can recover at least 50% of my total losses.

Just thinking... with the collective knowledge and awe inspiring wisdom that exists on this forum.

How can success not be far away? for all of us!!!!

God bless us all and thank you

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adaseb
Canada
 
 
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I've met many traders in the last few years.

A lot of traders called themselves "Professionals" and wanted money in return for their knowledge.

A few traders I found to be very good teachers but live they couldn't trade profitably.

And many traders called themselves "Professionals" who didn't want money in return for their help just pure attention.

I read many forum posts, ebooks, courses, video courses, software, twitter, market profile.

I tried many instruments. Such as equities, options, forex, futures, interest rates, stock indices, etc.

And after wasting pretty much thousands of hours on all that I was ready to give up until I decided to give it one more shot and this time do it on my own from scratch. No indicators, no software, no outside help what so ever.

And in the end do you know what it was that helped me?

Experience.

Jesse Livermore once stated that you can put all your ideas on index card and give it to someone else. But one thing you can't give to someone else is experience.

Now I flip through the various currencies and commodities that I trade and when I see something that I like, I just take the trade. Its pretty much almost automatic or you can call it woman's intuition, I just see a setup and I tell myself "I just have to take this trade, i just have too".

I take losses all the time but I can pretty much have 5-6 loses in a row and it would take 1 winners to put me back into profit. I just jump in, and if the trade doesn't move immediately, I bail, losing spread and commission usually.

You know that old saying how a woman decides in the first 60 seconds if she will end up in bed with you at the end of the night? Well that's pretty much how my entries are. Usually within the first few seconds I can tell if this trade will end up working out or not, and will I make little profit or a lot of profit on this trade.

Everything I have learnt up until this point I have learnt on my own throughout my own experience. Now I can pretty much trade in any market and under any conditions. From the boring choppy Asian lunch markets to the fierce volatile Greek Austerity debate.

When I try to help out a few newbies I simply tell them to observe the market live, 16 hours a day and find a way how to profit but they keep saying the same old, "can you put that in an ebook", "can you post your trades live", " can you post your live statement", "can you make an EA", "what is the name of your system", etc, etc.

I really don't think trading is at all that difficult. It's much easier, cheaper, and faster to get into than any degree or business. I think the reason why most struggle is because they are not willing to put in the effort. Like Mike said, they pretty much don't want to gain the experience on their own they would much rather pay to learn about someone elses experience. And the problem what that is that most of those courses, ebooks, programs are all pure scams. Because I know for a fact I would not waste hundreds of hours designing a PDF to sell for $49.95, and go through all that hassle of promoting that eBook since I could make the money much easier and faster by trading myself.

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iTrade2golf
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monpere View Post
I guess that means, go to the gym 3 times a week, hire a personal trainer, buy some Tony Robbins tapes, eat more fiber, drink 8 glasses of water a day, and don't have unprotected sex. If that is not what these guys mean, then maybe they can elaborate.

You don't need inspiration right now. Inspiration + $1.25 will buy you a nice cup of coffe.

Yes for some people that can mean to do exactly these things. What I am trying to tell people is that trading begins with yourself. If getting in better physical shape by working out 3 times a week will make you more focused and alert then you should do that, reading some Tony Robbins books to help find your strengths and weaknesses then you should do that. I can't write out an exact plan that will lead you to successful trading because it is not black and white, because we are all different inside and out.

Just as I said and Big Mike did, and that is that successful trading starts from within with your strength and weaknesses. Don't just look at yourself ask people who know you well about your strengths and weaknesses.

inspiration is exactly what you need to help you in this game. A trader without inspiration is someone who will have a hard time picking themselves back up after having a bad run.

bobbyacim you said that after years of numerous indicators, methods and system you never found success, then try working on yourself. I can give suggestion but I can't do it for you.

I will tell you that my mentor that taught me this game over 17 years ago told me to learn about my self first and write a paper explaining all my personality traits, strengths and weaknesses and how to deal with them before he would start teaching me, I also took the Myers Briggs personality test and if anyone knows about it I am an ESTJ with a strong J, it just so happens that he was an ESTJ with a strong J.

So ladies and gentlemen if you think this is an easy game of opening a brokers account and learning chart patterns, oscillators, price action and any other indicator you want to throw in there, then why is there so many people that fail. This is High Finance and you are playing against some of the smartest people in the world and believe me when I tell you that everyone of them knows their strengths and weaknesses, so take my advice for what it is worth and continue down your road if it has been working for you, if not then think about why it is not working or working like it should and take a step back to take two steps forward.

And that's all I have to say about that.

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  #169 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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iTrade2golf View Post
I am an ESTJ with a strong J, it just so happens that he was an ESTJ with a strong J.

Interesting. Although I take MBTI with a grain of salt, I always imagined most traders would be INTJ. Possibly INTP for automated traders...

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 Lornz 
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monpere View Post
There has been 17 people in the last 5 post that have said "Work on Yourself". I guess that means, go to the gym 3 times a week, hire a personal trainer, buy some Tony Robbins tapes, eat more fiber, drink 8 glasses of water a day, and don't have unprotected sex. If that is not what these guys mean, then maybe they can elaborate.

Look up "Exercise-induced hippocampal neurogenesis"... Sufficient exercise should be be an important part of everyone's life...

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 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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monpere View Post
Yes the entry is also mechanical. It is defined with multiple steps of criteria that has to be met, but given that I only trade that setup (actually I trade 2 setups) I am so familiar with the setup that all those steps have now gelled into a 'picture' for me, that I can recognize instantly, and actually recognize as the setup or picture is forming, before it fully completes.

Those are wise words. And they do not only apply to "chart patterns", the patterns found elsewhere in finance are probably even more important...

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 Lornz 
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jstnbrg View Post
Post # 98 on this thread.

That's probably the best post I've read on this forum. Thanks!

Direct Link:

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  #173 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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@bobbyacim

Several others have pointed it out already, but I sincerely hope you stop your search; People with a profitable method won't sell it...

You have start to think conceptually about what you are trying to achieve and then do some statistical analysis. This does not have to be more complex (to get started) than doing manual backtests on ideas you formulate.

As for your reluctance to use wider than 5 tick stops, I would disagree. Most beginning traders use tight stops out of fear, but it is more costly to get stopped out on 6 5-tick stops than one 15 tick stop... Your stops should be relative to the average fluctuations of the instrument you are trading, thus avoiding being stopped out noise.

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  #174 (permalink)
 bobbyacim 
new york
 
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Lornz View Post
@ bobbyacim

Several others have pointed it out already, but I sincerely hope you stop your search; People with a profitable method won't sell it...

You have start to think conceptually about what you are trying to achieve and then do some statistical analysis. This does not have to be more complex (to get started) than doing manual backtests on ideas you formulate.

As for your reluctance to use wider than 5 tick stops, I would disagree. Most beginning traders use tight stops out of fear, but it is more costly to get stopped out on 6 5-tick stops than one 15 tick stop... Your stops should be relative to the average fluctuations of the instrument you are trading, thus avoiding being stopped out noise.

You know, in retrospect, some of my losers could have been winners had my stops been further away.
Any techniques on how to guage what a resonable stop should be for any given market. somewhere I saw a stop that functioned based on atr real-time, can't remember where I saw it?

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 bobbyacim 
new york
 
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adaseb View Post
I've met many traders in the last few years.

A lot of traders called themselves "Professionals" and wanted money in return for their knowledge.

A few traders I found to be very good teachers but live they couldn't trade profitably.

And many traders called themselves "Professionals" who didn't want money in return for their help just pure attention.

I read many forum posts, ebooks, courses, video courses, software, twitter, market profile.

I tried many instruments. Such as equities, options, forex, futures, interest rates, stock indices, etc.

And after wasting pretty much thousands of hours on all that I was ready to give up until I decided to give it one more shot and this time do it on my own from scratch. No indicators, no software, no outside help what so ever.

And in the end do you know what it was that helped me?

Experience.

Jesse Livermore once stated that you can put all your ideas on index card and give it to someone else. But one thing you can't give to someone else is experience.

Now I flip through the various currencies and commodities that I trade and when I see something that I like, I just take the trade. Its pretty much almost automatic or you can call it woman's intuition, I just see a setup and I tell myself "I just have to take this trade, i just have too".

I take losses all the time but I can pretty much have 5-6 loses in a row and it would take 1 winners to put me back into profit. I just jump in, and if the trade doesn't move immediately, I bail, losing spread and commission usually.

You know that old saying how a woman decides in the first 60 seconds if she will end up in bed with you at the end of the night? Well that's pretty much how my entries are. Usually within the first few seconds I can tell if this trade will end up working out or not, and will I make little profit or a lot of profit on this trade.

Everything I have learnt up until this point I have learnt on my own throughout my own experience. Now I can pretty much trade in any market and under any conditions. From the boring choppy Asian lunch markets to the fierce volatile Greek Austerity debate.

When I try to help out a few newbies I simply tell them to observe the market live, 16 hours a day and find a way how to profit but they keep saying the same old, "can you put that in an ebook", "can you post your trades live", " can you post your live statement", "can you make an EA", "what is the name of your system", etc, etc.

I really don't think trading is at all that difficult. It's much easier, cheaper, and faster to get into than any degree or business. I think the reason why most struggle is because they are not willing to put in the effort. Like Mike said, they pretty much don't want to gain the experience on their own they would much rather pay to learn about someone elses experience. And the problem what that is that most of those courses, ebooks, programs are all pure scams. Because I know for a fact I would not waste hundreds of hours designing a PDF to sell for $49.95, and go through all that hassle of promoting that eBook since I could make the money much easier and faster by trading myself.

So your a consistant, profitable pure price action day trader! WOW, a very rare breed!
May I ask how long it took you to become profitable?
Do you have a pre-defined pattern(s) your looking for or do the pattern(s) find you as they taking form?
Could you show us some of your charts and trades taken?

Thank you

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 bobbyacim 
new york
 
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Good trade at 7:36 a.m. EST on 6E


The pattern appeared right including a bend on the top channel line of the keltner.
Entry was at close of 3rd bar of pattern at 1.4376
Could have rode the price down to 1.4365 when the K & D lines on the Stoch touched for a cool 12 ticks, however I go to breakeven on 4 ticks and as Roger F. says, after this you have a free trade on your hands, so you could have gotten bolder and not exited on the first Stoch touch, instead gone on for the final touch/cross of stoch at 1.4353 for a whopping 17 tick profit!!

Enjoy the weekend.

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  #177 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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bobbyacim View Post
So your a consistant, profitable pure price action day trader! WOW, a very rare breed!
May I ask how long it took you to become profitable?
Do you have a pre-defined pattern(s) your looking for or do the pattern(s) find you as they taking form?
Could you show us some of your charts and trades taken?

Thank you

I think traders who can trade like this are indeed a rare breed. I believe they are born, not made. I think it is a mistake to want to emulate that if you don't have that inbred aptitude. You have been at this for a while, if you had that natural aptitude, it would have asserted itself already, and you would have naturally fallen into that trading style. I think traders with that aptitude, only need a certain amount of screen time to naturally develop that ability into an intangible sixth sense, and I believe it cannot be taught. You will notice that traders who trade that way generally say trading is easy, natural, effortless. I would say, that is not the norm for most of us.

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  #178 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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monpere View Post
I think traders who can trade like this are indeed a rare breed.

I doubt there are such people. I would think these people simply haven't managed to explain in words, or quantify what they are seeing on their charts.

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 Rayzor 
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forrestang View Post
I doubt there are such people. I would think these people simply haven't managed to explain in words, or quantify what they are seeing on their charts.

I have a "feel" that I can't quantify, but I CANNOT rely on this alone. Only Chuck Norris can do that!

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 Lornz 
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forrestang View Post
I doubt there are such people. I would think these people simply haven't managed to explain in words, or quantify what they are seeing on their charts.

There might not be enough computer power (yet) to quantify the inner workings of such people...

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 forrestang 
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Lornz View Post
There might not be enough computer power (yet) to quantify the inner workings of such people...

Sure, I'm not saying it has to be something that can be programmed. I'm just saying these people DO HAVE logic or method to their madness, wether or not they can explain it or teach it to someone else.

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 monpere 
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Lornz View Post
There might not be enough computer power (yet) to quantify the inner workings of such people...

As long as 95% of traders think they will be one of these people, as long as the majority think they can feel their way to profitability, there will be threads like this one. It will never change. I believe that thinking is built in our psychology, that's why most defend it so vehemently even though they cannot define it. I guess it is the natural way of things, because they are the ones who sustain the accounts of the elite 5%. The day every trader starts trading the markets objectively, is the day the markets will stop working, so trust your guts, your instincts, and try to feel the markets subconsciously. Without you guys there would be no reliable statistical data in the market for us objective guys to take the opposite side of your trades. The markets would then come down just to HFT vs. HFT. So, feel on, You are supporting the natural workings of the markets, you are doing you your part by design

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  #183 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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forrestang View Post
Sure, I'm not saying it has to be something that can be programmed. I'm just saying these people DO HAVE logic or method to their madness, wether or not they can explain it or teach it to someone else.

I agree completely. My would argument was just that the brain is quite powerful, and we are still a few decades away from AI on that level.

Successful discretionary traders are just extremely good at modelling the markets at the sub/unconscious levels of the mind. There is nothing "magical" about it.

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iTrade2golf
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Interesting. Although I take MBTI with a grain of salt, I always imagined most traders would be INTJ. Possibly INTP for automated traders...

Sure I did not take the test results as gospel, I merely used them as a tool to help me understand myself and find the trading technique that will work best for ME.

I do not think being an I or E is relevant to trading because you trade a system on a computer these days and most are not Pit Traders.

As for INTP, I think an INTP are more likely to be Zen like traders who trade by feelings that is not number driven

As an ESTJ with strong J, I am prone to extreme hard work, discipline, focus, and I will follow the rules and regulation without exception and believe in only doing the job right. Hence when I developed my trading system then taking trades not within my system is out of the question. Also I am prone to control my emotions within relationships and hence I carry this over to my trading so I do not get excited or angry when I win or loss. In my head it is merely a business and I expect to win with a sound trading system and losses are the normal cost of doing business.

Also one of my weaknesses is being a ESTJ with strong J, because I tend to over work and get burnt out without the thought of taking some time off. So This year during the school year when my kids are out of school I do not trade. This allows me to take time away from the game and recharge and also adds more family time. During the summer months I take off when the kids want to do something away from the home and any time a friend wants to play golf.

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adaseb
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bobbyacim View Post
So your a consistant, profitable pure price action day trader! WOW, a very rare breed!
May I ask how long it took you to become profitable?
Do you have a pre-defined pattern(s) your looking for or do the pattern(s) find you as they taking form?
Could you show us some of your charts and trades taken?

Thank you

Been trading 2.5 years in total. I would say that the first year to a year and a half was a big waste of time. It was all wasted finding systems, coding EAs, buying tick data to backtest, following 'bullshit' people on twitter, etc.

But you gotta keep in mind unlike most people I did this pretty much fulltime for the last 2.5 years. Generally every weekday I would dedicate between 12-16 hours. So if you add up all the hours, you can say i've been doing this for over a decade when compared to someone who learn't how to trade part time. I honestly don't think the average person should take this long to learn how to trade as I did. I consider myself a very slow learner.

Also living in North America it was a big pain in the ass staying awake throughout the London to the end of the NY session. For months I literally put my body through constant abuse by pretty much sleeping 2 hours every day. I pretty much lived on that Michelangelo sleep cycle where you sleep like 15 mins every few hours at different times of the day rather than just sleeping once like most people. And I would literally do nothing during the weekends except sleep throughout most of the day. Pretty much all the missed sleep throughout the week caught up with my during the weekend.

The core idea to how I trade took maybe a few months to learn, maybe about 2-3 months. And ever since then I just keep improving and adapting to the ever changing markets. For example, I used to only trade currencies, but then I decided to add commodities and had amazing success. I used to only scalp, but these days when I notice that my scalp can be turned into a swing trade, I always hold a portion of the trade. For example, if I go long and that trade keeps running and breaks some resistance hard, I will HOLD that trade because that resistance might be support. I also change when I trade. During the summer I avoid most Asian sessions, and if the market doesn't move after NY lunch such as today, I call it a day. This is very important and I will get into this later.

The way I see the market is pretty much like a game of pong. However instead of just 2 paddles, there are infinitely many paddles going both directions. Price will pretty much go to a paddle bounce and go the other way until it hits another paddle. The paddles I consider supply, demand, resistance, support, certain fib numbers, daily MAs, trendlines, etc. Generally price travels from supply to demand (or vice versa), from resistance to support (or vice versa). However not every support or resistance area holds, you can consider that when the paddle misses hitting the ball, and what happens then, it will go to the very next resistance (paddle) . I have no idea if this makes any sense. Its a stupid analogy.

All I am saying is that price travels from resistance to support (or vice versa), because it has too. What makes trading more difficult is that there are many timeframes and generally the higher timeframes lead the way. So if I take a scalp long on some pair on the M5 chart but I also noticed that this pair just found support on the daily, I will always hold a portion of the trade, and I just let that fucker run.

Now does this mean you should just enter blindly whenever price hits a support or resistance level? That depends. Because many times I missed great trades because price just went to support and rallied strongly without any chance for me to jump in. I consider that a missed opportunity but under no circumstances will I ever chase price. One thing I learnt in life is to never chase women, buses and price. Just wait for the next trade.

You need to understand that when price reaches a certain support/resistance area, one or two things will happen. It will either go through it like it doesn't exist and in this case you should ignore that area, or momentum might decrease in that area, price might stall in that area and fail to go lower, and that means that area was respected and you should find an entry somehow.

I think there are a few thousand people around the planet that trade exactly the way I trade. We all see the same setup and we all enter the market in the exact same moment and that creates momentum. That's why every trade I take puts me immediately into profit, if it doesn't then something isn't right and I will be looking to bail. This isn't just the traders looking to open a position, many traders also take profit this way. You just need to know which areas to look for. If I enter a trade and it doesn't move immediately my way, I need to bail as soon as possible. Why? Well for one it could be a trap and another reason is that there were probably a few hundred of thousand other traders that entered at the same moment as me, and if your the last trader to bail, you will have a big loss. This sometimes might happen when the markets are choppy. You shouldn't be taking any trades then either, because you need to understand you aren't going to move the market with your order, you need either a big player or a bunch of other retail traders to help you out. And these other traders think exactly the same way and they avoid the trade also for the same reasons.

I know I didn't mention psychological numbers but sometimes during the NY session there are large option expiries during a certain hour. This doesn't happen everyday but usually there are certain areas that a large player will protect, usually its China. China is usually a large player in the option world so if you notice that price fails to break a certain psychological number (for example 1.4000 on EU), realize that the barrier might be protected and watch what happens when the option expires. Generally the player protecting the option will have a huge exposure and try to liquidate it as soon as possible as the option expires. So if by coincidence as soon as the new hour hits that psychological is not longer supported, realize that there is going to be a massive sell off and jump in quick.

I take many loses, most of my trades end up at break even. I sometimes bail a trade at the wrong time and miss a great profit. This is just something I learn't to live with and I would never jump in the trade out of revenge, never.

If you are trading crude oil or Eurusd, it also helps to look what the dollar index is doing. If the DX reaches resistance it might affect your oil trade. Also sometimes during the start of the session looking how the stock indices are performing, they sometimes might be a leading indicator.

I don't know if I answered the question that was asked even. Im tired, its been a long week and I think I will go golfing in the rain today.

But everything I learn't I pretty much learnt on my own just by observing the markets. I didn't learn any of this by reading a book, forum, video course, etc, etc.

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  #186 (permalink)
adaseb
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Jesus Christ!

What is this rare breed talk?

Its called common sense.

I really hate posting charts in hindsight but this is the only way this can be explained.

I know many of you guys only trade the ES, so I posted an SP500 trade, see the 2 attachments.

In the first picture see that red line that I highlighted. The reason why that line is important because if you look to the left you will find that it was an important pivotal area on a very high timeframe. At first it was major resistance and then it broke and it "might" be support. The reason I say "might" is because we will pretend this trade didn't happen yet.

Look at the 2nd attachment.

Now you need to understand what is happening, there was a major sell-off and most of the market sentiment is short. It broke 2 important areas of support and most likely any longs were whipped out.

Now common sense says when you are short you want to buy it back as low as possible for the most profit and if you want to go long, its best to buy at the lowest price.

Now most traders who know what they are doing are paying very close attention to that "dont fvck with me support" line.

Look what happens, price makes a low very close to that line, rallies a little bit and then it makes a failed low.

Now what is most of the market thinking?

The longs see an opportunity to buy near a very important support area.

The shorts are getting pissed off because that support held and put in a trailing stop for their entire position or at the very least at least a partial amount, it would be retarded for a short not to take some profit off the table at this point.

Now where do you think most people will buy?

Most likely at that yellow line.

The shorts will cover when it breaches that line and the longs will buy to go long. There should be a surge of buying when that area is breached.

If you bought at that line price would never go against you, this is a confirmation of what you want to see.

If price breaches that area and it stalls and starts going down, that simply means that there is a large supply still in the market and it might go lower, which means get the fvck out because it might be a trap.

Later on it tested that area and it held and this is good news for the longs and bad news for the shorts. Eventually more shorts started covering because it didn't look like it was going to go any lower and price kept on rallying.

Now tell me what is so complicated to understand in this trade?

The reason why price rallied in that area is because the longs knew it was a good area to buy and shorts decided it was time to take some profit off the table. Price rallied because it had too.

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  #187 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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bobbyacim View Post
You know, in retrospect, some of my losers could have been winners had my stops been further away.
Any techniques on how to guage what a resonable stop should be for any given market. somewhere I saw a stop that functioned based on atr real-time, can't remember where I saw it?

A properly sized stop is a function of the market price action. Of course, after considering your own personal risk management.

To state another way, a stop is when you are wrong about a trade. If your stop is 5 ticks, and the market moves against you 6 ticks, does this invalidate the entire trade? If so, then a 5 tick stop was correct. If 5 ticks is pulled out of your ass because it's a comfortable number to risk, then it makes no sense and has no useful function except to make you feel good.

In trading, the best trades are often the ones that are the hardest to put on. This isn't golf. In golf, when you nail the ball in the "sweet spot" you can really feel it. It's an amazing feeling and you know instantly you've just killed it. In trading, it is almost the opposite many times - the best trades are the hardest ones to put on. Remember we're talking about a collective of people here, in general you want to do the opposite of what the crowd does but all the while you need to know what it is they are doing.

Read all the posts here:


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  #188 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Intuition is just a form of experience. Life experience, trading experience, etc. It's hard to quantify intuition or experience, but you can just say that the more experience you have, the more likely you are to succeed at something.

I believe it is also important to believe in what you are doing, which is why I say you need to create your own methodology and not follow someone else's.

People who go from one commercial trading website to another, one vendor to another, one room to another -- these people aren't trying to trade. They are trying to get rick quick. Good luck

Mike

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  #189 (permalink)
iTrade2golf
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Big Mike View Post
This isn't golf. In golf, when you nail the ball in the "sweet spot" you can really feel it. It's an amazing feeling and you know instantly you've just killed it.

You would think with my user name I would have used this example, where was I at on that one, Cheers Big Mike.

On a serious note, I use a critical system stop on all my trades, meaning I have a stop that is 3% of my trading account for system outages. I then close the trade when it meets my criteria to exit a trade whether it be against me or in the money. I never set a profit target that will be hit, because you will make the most profit if you let your trades run.

My profit targets are very large also in case I want to step away from the PC for an extended amount of time and can't manage the trade manually, ie.. take my wife out to lunch or my favorite, hit the links early.

Another note I would like to add is that I believe people are under capitalized on their trading, I actually know people who have started trading full time with only 7K and expect to be successful, this is one of the worst things I think a trader can do, but with these Brokers allowing $500 intra-day margin, this is drawing in people who are not financially ready to do this full time. This I think is what leads people to these stops that are unreasonable for the volatility in the futures market. A 4 point stop on the ES is a $200 hit per contract. And most people want to trade multiple contracts because they have money fever. This is another reason I think people fail and get scared of losing.

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  #190 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
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adaseb View Post
Jesus Christ!

What is this rare breed talk?

Its called common sense.

I really hate posting charts in hindsight but this is the only way this can be explained.

....

true, with hindsight everything looks so easy and logical and tradable.

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 bobbyacim 
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Hi,

Spend several hours this A.M. trying different price-bar types in the hopes of improving on the current price pattern I am trading.

Better 3&2 Line-brake chart distorted the price pattern too much.
4,5,6 Renko bricks eliminated the Double indicator timing confirmation PLUS I don't like the fact that I can not see the wicks; for me, the position of the body relative to the wicks tells me something.
Volume bars of various sizes did nothing to improve the setup.

Went back to 550 tick.

Reflected on everything Big Mike has been saying; added a A.T.R. based trailing stoploss.
Observed that YES!
It improves the chances of initally not geting stopped-out AND keeps you in the trade longer than my arbitrary "pulled out of your ass" 5 tick stoploss.

THANKS BIG MIKE

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 bobbyacim 
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I have just seen the most amazing article of proof that THIS CAN BE DONE, SUCCESSFULLY AND CONSISTANTLY

It is on another thread called
"PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME: HOW MANY HAVE MADE IT"

I HAVE JUST COPIED THE POST HERE. TRUELY AAAAAMMMMMMAAAAAAAAZZZZZZIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGGGG

QUOTE: I’m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I’m consistent only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don’t PM me & ask for my method, even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it
Because it requires you to know how to trade. That means knowing your instrument, knowing what the average daily ranges are & knowing when it is likely to turn. I use indicators, price action & divergence all together.
Some of the indicators on big mikes are great so don’t rubbish them they do help me make money. The price action swing indictor is good especially the ABC patterns it prnts., jeffs cci, is great for trend continuation longs, after the zero line cross. Felton’s indicators are good for divergence counter trend setups. Some of the pivot indicators are helpful.
I spent over 6000 hours before I became consistent, confident & the fear went away.
I offer this as inspiration to keep going forward & learning to struggling traders, many naysayers told me to
Give up & quit in the first 3 years. I always believed I would make it. I’m a believer in you get what you expect.
So expect you will make it, hold the thought, hold the dream & keep practicing in Sim & market replay over & over until you prove to yourself that you have the skill to make it as a trader.
Good luck to all regards
LOR

Dear Loriley,
I am on cloud 9 level SHOCK at what I am seeing. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!!!!!!!!

For the longest time I have been searching for validation/confirmation that THIS CAN BE DONE!
So much so that I had a thread called "ten-thousand in education and still not profitable" over 10,000 saw it and no one could produce the kind of evidence that you just have!!!!!
To it I have started “ten thousand in education finally paying off" however I have not really been able to OWN this statement YET.

I have 6 years/5000 hours at this, tried every ebook, system, course, trading room I could think of. Divergence was the only thing that I could count on, but alas, I could not maintain the precision it requires to make it a profitable play.
Loriley, this is one human being that will forever be in your debt for illuminating the overhang of despair with concrete, evidence based proof that THIS IS REALLY AND TRUELY DO-ABLE!!!!!
I am going to make your broker statements my wallpaper on my PC!!!!!!!!!
Sincerely in awe,
bobbyacim

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  #193 (permalink)
 Tiberius 
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bobbyacim View Post
I have just seen the most amazing article of proof that THIS CAN BE DONE, SUCCESSFULLY AND CONSISTANTLY

It is on another thread called
"PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME: HOW MANY HAVE MADE IT"

I HAVE JUST COPIED THE POST HERE. TRUELY AAAAAMMMMMMAAAAAAAAZZZZZZIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGGGG

QUOTE: I’m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I’m consistent only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don’t PM me & ask for my method, even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it
Because it requires you to know how to trade. That means knowing your instrument, knowing what the average daily ranges are & knowing when it is likely to turn. I use indicators, price action & divergence all together.
Some of the indicators on big mikes are great so don’t rubbish them they do help me make money. The price action swing indictor is good especially the ABC patterns it prnts., jeffs cci, is great for trend continuation longs, after the zero line cross. Felton’s indicators are good for divergence counter trend setups. Some of the pivot indicators are helpful.
I spent over 6000 hours before I became consistent, confident & the fear went away.
I offer this as inspiration to keep going forward & learning to struggling traders, many naysayers told me to
Give up & quit in the first 3 years. I always believed I would make it. I’m a believer in you get what you expect.
So expect you will make it, hold the thought, hold the dream & keep practicing in Sim & market replay over & over until you prove to yourself that you have the skill to make it as a trader.
Good luck to all regards
LOR

Dear Loriley,
I am on cloud 9 level SHOCK at what I am seeing. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!!!!!!!!

For the longest time I have been searching for validation/confirmation that THIS CAN BE DONE!
So much so that I had a thread called "ten-thousand in education and still not profitable" over 10,000 saw it and no one could produce the kind of evidence that you just have!!!!!
To it I have started “ten thousand in education finally paying off" however I have not really been able to OWN this statement YET.

I have 6 years/5000 hours at this, tried every ebook, system, course, trading room I could think of. Divergence was the only thing that I could count on, but alas, I could not maintain the precision it requires to make it a profitable play.
Loriley, this is one human being that will forever be in your debt for illuminating the overhang of despair with concrete, evidence based proof that THIS IS REALLY AND TRUELY DO-ABLE!!!!!
I am going to make your broker statements my wallpaper on my PC!!!!!!!!!
Sincerely in awe,
bobbyacim

Bobby
When I first read this post, I said "yeah baby, that's right, I'm the man". Upon reflection I am now reading this post as,"wow, this guy is setting himself up for a world of hurt". I am not qualified to give advice (I am only 54), but you have 6 years/ 5000 hours and everything under the sun. Your new wallpaper? How do you think straight? Well if I was you, and I am not, I would walk away from this trading stuff and forget about it. Talk a break, the rest of the summer off, don't even think about this trading stuff. I say stuff, because you may be at your wits end. The time off will do you good. Forget about it, don't let it occupy space in your head, do something else. Then after a few months, if the trading business still makes sense, come back and start with the basics, and work from there. Even a few months is not enough, but you might know when. Tiberius

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  #194 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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bobbyacim View Post
I have just seen the most amazing article of proof that THIS CAN BE DONE, SUCCESSFULLY AND CONSISTANTLY

It is on another thread called
"PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME: HOW MANY HAVE MADE IT"

I HAVE JUST COPIED THE POST HERE. TRUELY AAAAAMMMMMMAAAAAAAAZZZZZZIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGGGG

QUOTE: I’m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I’m consistent only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don’t PM me & ask for my method, even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it
Because it requires you to know how to trade. That means knowing your instrument, knowing what the average daily ranges are & knowing when it is likely to turn. I use indicators, price action & divergence all together.
Some of the indicators on big mikes are great so don’t rubbish them they do help me make money. The price action swing indictor is good especially the ABC patterns it prnts., jeffs cci, is great for trend continuation longs, after the zero line cross. Felton’s indicators are good for divergence counter trend setups. Some of the pivot indicators are helpful.
I spent over 6000 hours before I became consistent, confident & the fear went away.
I offer this as inspiration to keep going forward & learning to struggling traders, many naysayers told me to
Give up & quit in the first 3 years. I always believed I would make it. I’m a believer in you get what you expect.
So expect you will make it, hold the thought, hold the dream & keep practicing in Sim & market replay over & over until you prove to yourself that you have the skill to make it as a trader.
Good luck to all regards
LOR

Dear Loriley,
I am on cloud 9 level SHOCK at what I am seeing. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!!!!!!!!

For the longest time I have been searching for validation/confirmation that THIS CAN BE DONE!
So much so that I had a thread called "ten-thousand in education and still not profitable" over 10,000 saw it and no one could produce the kind of evidence that you just have!!!!!
To it I have started “ten thousand in education finally paying off" however I have not really been able to OWN this statement YET.

I have 6 years/5000 hours at this, tried every ebook, system, course, trading room I could think of. Divergence was the only thing that I could count on, but alas, I could not maintain the precision it requires to make it a profitable play.
Loriley, this is one human being that will forever be in your debt for illuminating the overhang of despair with concrete, evidence based proof that THIS IS REALLY AND TRUELY DO-ABLE!!!!!
I am going to make your broker statements my wallpaper on my PC!!!!!!!!!
Sincerely in awe,
bobbyacim


Dude, cool the jets down a bit. Stop believing the hype. Don't get taken in by every shinny thing you see, that has already cost you $10k. Don't get so excited just because some guy says he is making money. Don't believe anything anyone says, until you have proven it for your self. Whether he is making money or not, does not determine whether you will or not. It's great that someone's profit statements is inspiring to you, but as I said before, inspiration +$1.25 will get you a nice cup of coffee. There is a lot of stuff that takes place between inspiration and achievement, that's the stuff you are going to need to figure out.

You do that by choosing a method, and stick to it long enough to know it inside and out. I think any method can make money, if you know it well enough, it's strength, it's weaknesses, what kind of market it is built for, when it works best, when it does not. I mainly trade divergence, but there are certain divergence signals I would not touch with a 10 foot pole, i.e. if some of my traded instruments give me 8 range bars straight up, then give me a divergence signal, I have a rule that says, don't you dare touch that mouse, because I know given that kind of momentum, I'm probably gonna get at least 2 failed divergence signals, before I get one that makes me money. Now, I actually can pretty accurately tell where there is divergence just by looking at price action alone, without any indicators. I can do that now because I stuck with the method for months learning everything about it. Choose a method that fits your personality and which makes sense to you, and stick with it. If you put in the work to get to the point to know it intimately, no matter what method it is, it will make you profitable.

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  #195 (permalink)
 timefreedom 
Indianapolis, IN USA
 
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monpere View Post
Dude, cool the jets down a bit. Stop believing the hype. Don't get taken in by every shinny thing you see, that has already cost you $10k. Don't get so excited just because some guy says he is making money. Don't believe anything anyone says, until you have proven it for your self. Whether he is making money or not, does not determine whether you will or not. It's great that someone's profit statements is inspiring to you, but as I said before, inspiration +$1.25 will get you a nice cup of coffee. There is a lot of stuff that takes place between inspiration and achievement, that's the stuff you are going to need to figure out.

You do that by choosing a method, and stick to it long enough to know it inside and out. I think any method can make money, if you know it well enough, it's strength, it's weaknesses, what kind of market it is built for, when it works best, when it does not. I mainly trade divergence, but there are certain divergence signals I would not touch with a 10 foot pole, i.e. it the market gives me 8 range bars straight up, then gives me a divergence signal, I have a rule that says, don't you dare touch that mouse. I can now pretty accurately tell where there is divergence just by looking at price action alone, without any indicators. I can do that now because I stuck with the method for years learning everything about it. Choose a method that fits your personality and which makes sense to you, and stick with it. If you put in the work to get to the point to know it intimately, no matter what method it is, it will make you profitable.

Now hold on... In his original thread, all Bobby asked for was proof in the form of trading statements that someone, anyone, was having success as a retail trader. It's now been clearly shown that it's possible (at least if one clears through Dorman and uses Mirus as their IB) to post such proof without divulging any compromising personal information. Many of us are aware that some vendors are selling "how to trade" information without having achieved much personal success with their own trading. I wonder how many folks are doling out well-meaning advice here on this forum without having achieved much personal success with their own trading? It's a legitimate argument to question how much or how little a given broker statement for a limited period of time proves. But the bottom line is, Bobby asked for proof in the form of broker statements - and received them. Before being promoted to a "Market Wizard" here on the forum, it would be nice if there was a requirement to provide some evidence of successful trading.

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  #196 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus, IB
Trading: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
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timefreedom View Post
Now hold on... In his original thread, all Bobby asked for was proof in the form of trading statements that someone, anyone, was having success as a retail trader. It's now been clearly shown that it's possible (at least if one clears through Dorman and uses Mirus as their IB) to post such proof without divulging any compromising personal information. Many of us are aware that some vendors are selling "how to trade" information without having achieved much personal success with their own trading. I wonder how many folks are doling out well-meaning advice here on this forum without having achieved much personal success with their own trading? It's a legitimate argument to question how much or how little a given broker statement for a limited period of time proves. But the bottom line is, Bobby asked for proof in the form of broker statements - and received them. Before being promoted to a "Market Wizard" here on the forum, it would be nice if there was a requirement to provide some evidence of successful trading.

Yes, that question has been answered. Now what? You can get 350 profitable broker statements, they all mean nothing if you yourself are still losing money. Witnessing those statements does not turn your broker statements positive. It goes to prove that, other then satisfying one's curiosity, the answer to that question is irrelevant to the core intent of the original poster, which is to become profitable.

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  #197 (permalink)
 bobbyacim 
new york
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: mb trading
Trading: 6e
 
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monpere View Post
Yes, that question has been answered. Now what? You can get 350 profitable broker statements, they all mean nothing if you yourself are still losing money. Witnessing those statements does not turn your broker statements positive. It goes to prove that, other then satisfying one's curiosity, the answer to that question is irrelevant to the core intent of the original poster, which is to become profitable.

Hey, I realize that these numbers posted are staggering, The broker statements have blown me away, but YES, someone in my household saw these statements as well and commented (God knows I mean no intentional disrespect to that trader) that they could easily be created with a word processing program.

O.k there have been over 30,000 views of that post, I propose we take up a collection of funds, I will personally spearhead it. Say, $3,000-5,000 dollars we pay a substantial fee to this trader, then we elect our most trust worthy member to fly out there, and sit right next to our 8k a week trader and witness this live!

Can we trust our own eyes????

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  #198 (permalink)
 rtrade 
Paradise, USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Big Charts
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bobbyacim View Post
these statements..... could easily be created with a word processing program.
I will personally....fly out there, and sit right next to....and witness this live!
Can we trust???



bobby, bobby, bobby, from my last post I alluded that you may need psychological assistance. You are beginning to confirm this. It would seem that you have TRUST issues and you also have psychological conflicting views between your conscious and subconscious.

From what I'm seeing from your posts, your conscious wants to believe but your subconscious does not. It would explain after a SUCCESSFUL Trader takes the TIME to show you positive results you first believe but only to sabotage that belief by disbelieving. This would explain why you have your type of trading results.

I think you need to take care of the issues from my last post first before you continue trading....like Stop Drinking, Pay back your 401k, etc.

Just my 1 cent...(the 2 cents has been devalued by the dollar)

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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  #199 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
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bobbyacim View Post
Hey, I realize that these numbers posted are staggering, The broker statements have blown me away, but YES, someone in my household saw these statements as well and commented (God knows I mean no intentional disrespect to that trader) that they could easily be created with a word processing program.

O.k there have been over 30,000 views of that post, I propose we take up a collection of funds, I will personally spearhead it. Say, $3,000-5,000 dollars we pay a substantial fee to this trader, then we elect our most trust worthy member to fly out there, and sit right next to our 8k a week trader and witness this live!

Can we trust our own eyes????

Bobby,

Yes, I agree with others. You basically fulfilled the one reason why so many won't do what you were asking. I suggest you sit down, reflect, take some time off, flush out your brain a bit and also maybe see a psyche specialist. This may seem insulting, but it isn't meant to be.

You are all over the place and evident that this obviously impacts your trading.

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  #200 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
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monpere View Post
Yes, that question has been answered. Now what? You can get 350 profitable broker statements, they all mean nothing if you yourself are still losing money. Witnessing those statements does not turn your broker statements positive. It goes to prove that, other then satisfying one's curiosity, the answer to that question is irrelevant to the core intent of the original poster, which is to become profitable.

You are spot on except that for me personally it helps inspire while I struggle to be a profitable discretionary trader. Kind of like if you signed up for a university and there was no limit in sight for graduation. Some people take 20 years, some never, some 2 years, some 2 months.

Some will be happy with an Associates (2 year degree) instead of the Bachelors (Full undergraduate) and be happy with a few hundred bucks a day and live a middle class lifestyle which is great! Others, they want the big money, want to trade 400 contracts a hit and want to make a few million a month.

Seeing someone 'graduate' offers inspiration to those others who have been on the 'slog'.

You are different in that you like mechanical trading and happy with your concept. Others are not or are in the growing stage. You say, "Why not do what I did as it is so obvious?". Good question, but just like wanting to see the statement, not something I guess I can answer.

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