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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!


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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

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  #1 (permalink)
new york
 
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Posts: 184 since Feb 2010

Myself as well as others I personally know have been dupped by the "Dream Merchants" of the trading world which includes Educators, System Vendors, Ebook Authors, Private Mentorship programs and even home spun system developers selling their wares on sites like ebay and Lulu.com- all claiming to be consistantly profitable!
My personal experience has been that none can offer any kind of PROOF OF ACTUAL PROFITABLITY when they are called out on it!! YOU JUST HAVE TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT, WHY????

Oh, yes some can offer proof of OCCASIONAL PROFITS INTERMIXED WITH LOSSES,
BUT NO ONE IN THE LAST 6 YEARS OF MY EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH CAN OFFER PROOF THAT THEY CONSISTANTLY ARE PROFITABLE AND THEREFORE LIVE SOLEY OFF OF THEIR TRADING RESULTS!

For those who still cling to the mantra that the key to profitable trading is Education, Education, Education, let me give you a sample of the trading education I have participated in over the past 6 years and at an approx. cost of over $10,000

Eminiacademy $5,000
Eminitradingstrategies $1,500
4xmadeeasy $600
Teachmetotrade $999
Traders International $ 6000 (recieved partial refund)
E=MC2 trading method $500
and a slew of hardcover, ebooks and 10 page trading instuctional downloads

I have also clocked over 5,000 hours between metatrader and ninjatrader in sim mode.

Still not consistantly profitable, but as I said earlier, I can not find anyone else who is either, at least not with ACTUAL PROOF!!!

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  #3 (permalink)
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I've been reading your posts the last few days.

To me, it seems very clear. You are searching externally for reasons why you are unprofitable. You are now even demanding proof someone else is profitable. Someone elses earnings have nothing to do with your own.

Stop looking externally, stop buying new methods, stop searching for something that is tangible that is going to change your trading. The problem is within, you need to focus on within to solve it.

Read my signature for steps you can take to start to become profitable.

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  #4 (permalink)
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Here is my two cents. You will never be successful until you have your blood sweat, tears and money in a method you design yourself. Yes you can borrow and steal from others, but until you understand it down to the nitty gritty details, you won't trust it. Thats why buying something from someone else almost never works. You don't trust it.

So quit trying. Take everything off the charts, and just trade price action. If you need something to show you support or resistance, you can find that stuff here on futures.io (formerly BMT).

If you can build something you believe in, you will make it to profitability. But stop chasing the gurus. Most of them trade something they built for themselves and I believe they make it work for themselves, but the likelihood of you emulating that success is very small.

Lastly, never ever ever blame anyone or anything for your success or failure. It is entirely your doing so stop blaming and start looking internally for the answers. I bet the $10K and 5000 hours are not looking at the same exact set up. Instead I bet you have 100 hours looking at 50 different set ups. You need 1000 hours looking at the same set up to really begin to understand, 5000 hours will get you really good and 10000 hours should put you into the realm of greatness. But it all has to be with the same set up, otherwise you are just spinning your wheels.

Have fun.

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  #5 (permalink)
New York
 
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I have seen that you have three threads started in this forum, but not a Journal thread. Which leads me to ask, do you keep a personal journal? And if not, I strongly suggest that you do. It will open doors that you will not believe. It opened my eyes that after looking back at a few months of my journal with charts that I knew nothing about the markets and with a short period of time I turned my results around tremendously. At least I don't make entries in the wrong direction anymore....lol.

Do yourself a favor and start a journal thread in this forum. Trust me, you will be glad you did.

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  #6 (permalink)
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aztrader9 View Post
Here is my two cents. You will never be successful until you have your blood sweat, tears and money in a method you design yourself. Yes you can borrow and steal from others, but until you understand it down to the nitty gritty details, you won't trust it. Thats why buying something from someone else almost never works. You don't trust it.

So quit trying. Take everything off the charts, and just trade price action. If you need something to show you support or resistance, you can find that stuff here on futures.io (formerly BMT).

If you can build something you believe in, you will make it to profitability. But stop chasing the gurus. Most of them trade something they built for themselves and I believe they make it work for themselves, but the likelihood of you emulating that success is very small.

Lastly, never ever ever blame anyone or anything for your success or failure. It is entirely your doing so stop blaming and start looking internally for the answers. I bet the $10K and 5000 hours are not looking at the same exact set up. Instead I bet you have 100 hours looking at 50 different set ups. You need 1000 hours looking at the same set up to really begin to understand, 5000 hours will get you really good and 10000 hours should put you into the realm of greatness. But it all has to be with the same set up, otherwise you are just spinning your wheels.

Have fun.

First, something I would like to say to BIG MIKE;
Mike, I respect and greatly admire what you have built here, solely for the purpose of exchanging ideas, techniques and methodologies for the betterment of others like myself who are struggling with their trading, and for a lot longer than 6 years! Extremely Commendable Sir!

HOWEVER, wheather a method that I could devise myself would suit me better or wheather looking internally for answers is the solution, etc, etc..
I remain true to the main reason for starting this thread

IN 6 YEARS OF EXHAUSTIVE SEARCHING, I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY RETAIL DAYTRADER WHO UPON CLAIMING TO BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, CAN OFFER ANY CONCRETE PROOF OF SUCH. WHY?

Please understand I am strictly speaking about daytrading. Because swing trading and longer term is different, with these longer timeframes, you are rising above the so-called noise. Although if prices are fractal, then it can be argued that the longer term charts are just a greater amount of noise.

ENJOY YOUR HOLIDAYS EVERYONE AND GOD BLESS.

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  #7 (permalink)
Pennslyvania
 
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Hi Bobbyacim:

Here's my 2 cents. 1982 I took the Richard D.Wycoff correspondence course. Took about a year to complete. I knew the principles of supply & demand, effort vs result and cause & effect, springs, upthrusts and falling thru the ice, etc. I plotted barcharts and point & figure by hand and focused, (operative word), on a hand full of companies and paper traded them, I knew them inside and out. I became consistantly profitable in stocks, I would also sell puts to buy and sell calls to sell etc etc.

I had one big problem, and still do, my DNA. It was totally boring having to wait to trade, I have no patience. I hated it, I must have action. I can't get past one chapter of any book without it becoming agony. They warned students against the temptation to wonder off searching for the holy grail. So in 1990 guess what I did. I am still looking for it. My sin is greater than anyone else's because I know what I need to do but can't get my self to do it. For some reason I must always be in a hurry.

So I'll throw some advice out there, take it for what it's worth. You shouldn't trade anything unless you know what make's it tick, it's personalities. You must study it as if you were a scientist studying an alien life form. Just sit and watch it. After 3 to 6 months a light bulb will come on. Ah Hah! Yep. You just discovered one thing it does 90 % of the time. THEN AND ONLY THEN do you put an indicator on the chart soley for the purpose to enhance that particular personality. Most people throw indicators on a chart just to see what sticks.

Good luck on your journey.

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  #8 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
I remain true to the main reason for starting this thread

IN 6 YEARS OF EXHAUSTIVE SEARCHING, I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY RETAIL DAYTRADER WHO UPON CLAIMING TO BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, CAN OFFER ANY CONCRETE PROOF OF SUCH. WHY?

The title of your thread "Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable" seems to be a cry for help of sorts, you are saying you've spent a lot of time and money and yet you are unable to make money in the market.

But now you are saying the main reason for the thread has nothing to do with your trading performance or how much time or money you've spent, but instead has everything to do with finding a trader who will prove to you they are profitable. It's confusing because it has nothing to do with the title of the thread.

If you are trying to turn your trading around, then you can take my advice and start moving in that direction and accepting responsibility for your own actions. It's the complete opposite direction you are heading now, which is the constant search for someone else to justify a method or program to you, proving to you it is worth your time or money, or satisfying your desire to know if they are profitable. No one forced you to buy any vendors programs or methods (no gun to your head), you are responsible for your own decisions and actions. Many traders come to futures.io (formerly BMT) after making such purchases and realize they were a mistake, then they right the ship and start down a different path, one that places the emphasis on their own method and their own actions and accountability and responsibility for their own trading.

Mike

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  #9 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
IN 6 YEARS OF EXHAUSTIVE SEARCHING, I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY RETAIL DAYTRADER WHO UPON CLAIMING TO BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, CAN OFFER ANY CONCRETE PROOF OF SUCH. WHY?

Several points to consider:

1. TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS RUDE!!!
2. You have been looking in the wrong place.
3. You have been asking the wrong question.
4. Traders owe you NOTHING and proving profitability does nothing for them.
5. The purpose of trading is to transfer your account into mine.
(I am your competition why should I help you?)

and lastly... I owe you NOTHING... Anything I give you or allow you to see is being gracious.

Trading is tough. If you can't handle that, perhaps you need to try something else.

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Knowing it's not about Clouds or Wind. . .
But Learning to Dance in the Rain ! ! !
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  #10 (permalink)
New Brunswick, NJ
 
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bobbyacim View Post
IN 6 YEARS OF EXHAUSTIVE SEARCHING, I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY RETAIL DAYTRADER WHO UPON CLAIMING TO BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, CAN OFFER ANY CONCRETE PROOF OF SUCH. WHY?

Maybe because the real profitable ones don't care if you think they are profitable, nor care to impress you or feel that they owe you anything to prove that they are? Just because you type in bold capital letters, doesn't mean people will fall over their feet to prove to you that they are profitable.

Let's say some does. Then what? How is this going to help you? Are you going to be profitable all of a sudden too?

Just because you spent time and money on something, doesn't mean you will be successful. You also need to apply yourself in the correct way. I see numerous overweight people at the gym I go to, who spent 90% of their time talking to their friends, taking phone calls while half-assing it on the treadmill or just sit around taking a "rest". I can just imagine them telling their friends that they cannot understand why they don't lose weight since they go to the gym all the time.

Unless you take responsibility and apply yourself, you will always be that person in the gym wasting your time and money getting nowhere.

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  #11 (permalink)
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

I hate to say it, but after 6 years you might come to the conclusion that trading is not for you and you should seek other things in life because otherwise you will become frustrated and bitter.

I personally find your loss of $10.000 not that big, over a period of 6 years. I have spend way more in 6 months on this trading endeavor.

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  #12 (permalink)
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@bobbyacim , people are trying to help you, you just have to listen.

You have been listening to educators that tell you you need education and to spend money, yet not listening to those ( @BigMike, @FatTails, etc ) that do not want to make money, just to help.

In trading, you have to run your own race, no one can do that for you.

( How much have I spent on education ? I bought Al Brooks book and the rest was free. )

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bobbyacim View Post

IN 6 YEARS OF EXHAUSTIVE SEARCHING, I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY RETAIL DAYTRADER WHO UPON CLAIMING TO BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, CAN OFFER ANY CONCRETE PROOF OF SUCH. WHY?

It's a logical scenario. If you have found none, it means one of two things. Either they don't exist, or people who openly claim to be profitable generally can't back it up or can't be bothered.

Let's say someone did prove it. What would your action be?

a) accept that, be happy, go away and put the time and effort in to develop your own method
b) not believe them for some reason, and ask for more proof
c) say that's only one, and ask for more people
d) pester them with follow up questions about how they do it. Offer to help, or buy their method.

So, honestly, which would it be?

And a couple of final questions for you - what do you think anyone proving this to you online would get out of the exercise? Can you think of any reasons why they wouldn't bother?

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  #14 (permalink)
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"It's a logical scenario. If you have found none, it means one of two things. Either they don't exist, or people who openly claim to be profitable generally can't back it up or can't be bothered"

FINALLY!!!! SOMEONE IS FOCUSING ON THE QUESTION I POSED INSTEAD OF MUSING PSYCHOLOGY LIKE BIG MIKE HAS BEEN DOING OR THE OTHER PERSON CONCERNED ABOUT MY LACK OF EDICATE FOR TYPING IN UPPERCASE.

Look, don't we ask for proof in any other performance based endeavour; for baseball players we demand to know their batting average; football, number of touchdowns, hockey, number of fieldgoals, etc.

This is one of the few performance based endeavors that requires nothing more than a mere mention of profitability for credibility.

Hey the famous trader Gary Smith once said in an interview that consistently profitable daytraders were so few that they were the exception to the rule.

I am sure you will agree Mike, that only a fool would base a rule only on an exception!

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  #15 (permalink)
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traderwerks View Post
@bobbyacim , people are trying to help you, you just have to listen.

You have been listening to educators that tell you you need education and to spend money, yet not listening to those ( @BigMike, @FatTails, etc ) that do not want to make money, just to help.

In trading, you have to run your own race, no one can do that for you.

( How much have I spent on education ? I bought Al Brooks book and the rest was free. )

WHY IS EVERYONE VEERING OFF TOPIC??
Perhaps because no one on this forum can honestly say they are CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE AND BACK IT UP WITH PROOF EITHER???

Although a agreed that THE RUMPLED ONE was his own worse enemy and most likely his own cause for being banned from this site as well as others. After six long and expensive years of this journey, I must concur with some of the conclusions he drew, among them;
A) THAT IF ANY METHOD OUT THERE COULD BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, IT WOULD HAVE GONE VIRAL A LONG TIME AGO AND EVERYONE WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT

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  #16 (permalink)
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DavidHP View Post
Several points to consider:

1. TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS RUDE!!!
2. You have been looking in the wrong place.
3. You have been asking the wrong question.
4. Traders owe you NOTHING and proving profitability does nothing for them.
5. The purpose of trading is to transfer your account into mine.
(I am your competition why should I help you?)

and lastly... I owe you NOTHING... Anything I give you or allow you to see is being gracious.

Trading is tough. If you can't handle that, perhaps you need to try something else.



Thank you DavidHP for your post!!!!

This is the best reply the way I see it. Straight forward and to the point. I came to USA from Ukraine 30 years ago and in our world with in my community we have a saying one must eat some sh_t before they can get some where. The question is how fast can you be done with it. All based in the size of your spoon. I guess at this point your spoon is not big enough.

Sorry your posts got to me!!! Please try to read David's last sentence one more time, perhaps that would help. And one other point stop asking for anything to be given to you, try to give that might help. OK that would be enough I already invested more time into this then I had planed. Time to make more money.

TickVix/Gregory

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  #17 (permalink)
UK
 
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How about answering my questions then?


bobbyacim View Post

Look, don't we ask for proof in any other performance based endeavour; for baseball players we demand to know their batting average; football, number of touchdowns, hockey, number of fieldgoals, etc.

Yeah, and we ask teachers and dentists and shop owners to prove how profitable they are by posting their tax returns online.


Quoting 
Hey the famous trader Gary Smith once said in an interview that consistently profitable daytraders were so few that they were the exception to the rule.

I am sure you will agree Mike, that only a fool would base a rule only on an exception!

Gary Smith has said they exist, so what's your problem?

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  #18 (permalink)
new york
 
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Ticvic,

Thanks for the advice and observation.

Folks, It looks like I am not going to get my question answered on this forum either.. Oh well, I will continue to ask this same question in hundreds of other forums until I tire.

Is anyone out there in the universe EARNING A LIVING FROM DAYTRADING SOLELY and can offer proof of such?

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  #19 (permalink)
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

Ask velocity to see their leaderboard.

What is wrong with that proof ??

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  #20 (permalink)
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It's a well worn path.

Trader spends years and loads of money trying to learn how to trade other people's courses and methods. Trader fails, because the courses and methods were useless, or trader failed to adapt them and put the time in. Trader gets angry and frustrated. Trader claims online that NO ONE is a profitable day trader. Profitable day trader reads post, laughs, and gets on with his real job.

I'll tell you what. I'll do you a deal. If you answer all the questions I've put on this thread so far, I'll send you a scan of my monthly trading statement which shows a decent profit from day trading alone for the month of Dec 2010. No more, no less. Some details will be blanked out. It is *probably* fakeable.

Now, I predict you won't answer the questions, or will be unhappy with the 'proof', but ask yourself, why should I bother putting any more effort than this in? Do you think I care whether or not you believe me?

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  #21 (permalink)
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Xeno View Post
How about answering my questions then?



Yeah, and we ask teachers and dentists and shop owners to prove how profitable they are by posting their tax returns online.

Gary Smith has said they exist, so what's your problem?

Although teachers, dentists and shop owners in my opionion are not PERFORMANCE BASED ENDEVOURS FROM A COMPETITIVE STANDPOINT.
I DO CHECK MY CHILDS TUTOR TO MAKE SURE SHE IS CREDENTIALED, I RESEARCH MY DENTIST TO SEE IF HE HAS ANY MALPRACTICE SUITES PENDING AND
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT, WHENEVER I BUY A BUSINESS, I DO ASK TO LOOK AT THE BOOKS!

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  #22 (permalink)
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Xeno View Post
It's a well worn path.

Trader spends years and loads of money trying to learn how to trade other people's courses and methods. Trader fails, because the courses and methods were useless, or trader failed to adapt them and put the time in. Trader gets angry and frustrated. Trader claims online that NO ONE is a profitable day trader. Profitable day trader reads post, laughs, and gets on with his real job.

I'll tell you what. I'll do you a deal. If you answer all the questions I've put on this thread so far, I'll send you a scan of my monthly trading statement which shows a decent profit from day trading alone for the month of Dec 2010. No more, no less. Some details will be blanked out. It is *probably* fakeable.

Now, I predict you won't answer the questions, or will be unhappy with the 'proof', but ask yourself, why should I bother putting any more effort than this in? Do you think I care whether or not you believe me?

XENO,
I AM NOT trying to challenge you or anyone else on thiS forum, EVERYONE PLEASE STOP GETTING DEFENSIVE.

I do not want to force you to submit anything you are not comfortable submiting for viewing.
I DO NOT WANT A SAMPLING OF "ONE" MONTHS P/L/ STATEMENT. Hell in the last 6 years, I have had a few winning months here and there also.

ALL I AM ASKING IS: ARE YOU MAKING YOUR LIVING SOLELY ON YOUR DAYTRADING? AND IF YOU WERE ASKED, COULD YOU PROVE IT?

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  #23 (permalink)
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Xeno View Post
It's a well worn path.

Trader spends years and loads of money trying to learn how to trade other people's courses and methods. Trader fails, because the courses and methods were useless, or trader failed to adapt them and put the time in. Trader gets angry and frustrated. Trader claims online that NO ONE is a profitable day trader. Profitable day trader reads post, laughs, and gets on with his real job.

Well put @Xeno.

People think that the vendors are all crap (most are), but think about why they do it. The money is a sure thing vs trading where you have to work at it, adapt, and persevere. As an example, lets take a custom bar type. Say you took someone else's free code available here made some changes, and decided to sell it for $250 a pop. You sell 1000 copies, and ding-ding you grossed $250K. Thats why you have traders, that do trade and perhaps make money most of the time, that still sell stuff or education. The money either evens out a non-steady income from trading or funds losses.

The best thing you can do is use a site like this to get other opinions first, find things that work, or better yet get the nuggets that do work. I have read a lot of books and have bought things over the years. I have usually gotten something out of each item, but long ago got over the idea that I was going to buy "the system/indicator". Instead of thinking you can buy the end game, do the work.

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  #24 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
"It's a logical scenario. If you have found none, it means one of two things. Either they don't exist, or people who openly claim to be profitable generally can't back it up or can't be bothered"

FINALLY!!!! SOMEONE IS FOCUSING ON THE QUESTION I POSED INSTEAD OF MUSING PSYCHOLOGY LIKE BIG MIKE HAS BEEN DOING OR THE OTHER PERSON CONCERNED ABOUT MY LACK OF EDICATE FOR TYPING IN UPPERCASE.

Look, don't we ask for proof in any other performance based endeavour; for baseball players we demand to know their batting average; football, number of touchdowns, hockey, number of fieldgoals, etc.

This is one of the few performance based endeavors that requires nothing more than a mere mention of profitability for credibility.

Hey the famous trader Gary Smith once said in an interview that consistently profitable daytraders were so few that they were the exception to the rule.

I am sure you will agree Mike, that only a fool would base a rule only on an exception!

I dont' believe asking for proof should be the question. IMHO, if someone wants to share with you because you are eager to learn and work your tail off, it's because they want to help you succeed. Demanding that someone show you proof that the work THEY put in was successful isn't the best route to go in my opinion.

With respect to time/money/buying systems/etc., Mike's advice is spot on. You need to look within. Start with the idea of 'market structure'. The markets are ever chaning. I dont' believe you will find a long term consistent system from something you can buy online for $199 or a 10 page ebook. However, there may be a piece or two of info containted in what you buy that is applicable an overall understanding of the markekts. The markets are always biased, the players who move the markets have ever changing needs, and they engineer moves when they need to in order to create an advantage for themselves. I don't believe there is one 'indicator' or S/R indicator that would allow you to define the market in it's different stages. That's why a lot of systems fail when the market regime changes. Coupling great MM with the ability to define context in the market is the backbone of any great methodology. You can't have one without the other. You can be profitable in the Market winning 90% of the time with a W/L of .5 (pretty risky) or winning 45% of the time with a W/L of 3:1. These would be 2 very different strategies with 2 very different money management structures - yet both 'profitable'. From there, it's a matter of what is best for you...

Just my humble $.02.

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  #25 (permalink)
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aslan View Post
Well put @Xeno.

People think that the vendors are all crap (most are), but think about why they do it. The money is a sure thing vs trading where you have to work at it, adapt, and persevere. As an example, lets take a custom bar type. Say you took someone else's free code available here made some changes, and decided to sell it for $250 a pop. You sell 1000 copies, and ding-ding you grossed $250K. Thats why you have traders, that do trade and perhaps make money most of the time, that still sell stuff or education. The money either evens out a non-steady income from trading or funds losses.

The best thing you can do is use a site like this to get other opinions first, find things that work, or better yet get the nuggets that do work. I have read a lot of books and have bought things over the years. I have usually gotten something out of each item, but long ago got over the idea that I was going to buy "the system/indicator". Instead of thinking you can buy the end game, do the work.


+1.

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  #26 (permalink)
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DavidHP View Post
Trading is not for you, this is obvious.
This thread has shown you that it is about YOUR profit and loss NOT mine.
The problem is YOU are not profitable and want to blame someone.

But trading and life are not fair.
Don't bother looking at the books they have been cooked.
Records can be faked.
Credentials can be forged.
Law suits can be expunged.
Pencils have erasers for a reason.

To be a trader you must realize it is ALL about YOU!
No one else matters.

My suggestion is to bring up a Dos C:\ Prompt on your computer.
Type this FORMAT C: \U

Once the process is complete,
Go...
Be Happy...
Do something else...

DAVIDHP,
Very witty, and entertaining response.
I AM NOT GOING TO BELABOR THE REASON I STARTED THIS THREAD,
ALL I AM GOING TO SAY IS THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR THE ADVICE ON
TYPING EDICATE,
PERSONALITY PROFILING
ASSESSMENT OF MY TRADING ABILITIES OR LACK OF.

HOWEVER THE ORIGINAL QUESTION STILL STANDS!

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  #27 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
Although teachers, dentists and shop owners in my opionion are not PERFORMANCE BASED ENDEVOURS FROM A COMPETITIVE STANDPOINT.
I DO CHECK MY CHILDS TUTOR TO MAKE SURE SHE IS CREDENTIALED, I RESEARCH MY DENTIST TO SEE IF HE HAS ANY MALPRACTICE SUITES PENDING AND
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT, WHENEVER I BUY A BUSINESS, I DO ASK TO LOOK AT THE BOOKS!

Yes, but you're not employing the day traders you're asking for proof from, nor are they supplying you with a service. As for the ones you are buying a service from - well, it took you far too long IMO to learn that lesson.

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  #28 (permalink)
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thatguy View Post
Maybe because the real profitable ones don't care if you think they are profitable, nor care to impress you or feel that they owe you anything to prove that they are? Just because you type in bold capital letters, doesn't mean people will fall over their feet to prove to you that they are profitable.

Let's say some does. Then what? How is this going to help you? Are you going to be profitable all of a sudden too?

Just because you spent time and money on something, doesn't mean you will be successful. You also need to apply yourself in the correct way. I see numerous overweight people at the gym I go to, who spent 90% of their time talking to their friends, taking phone calls while half-assing it on the treadmill or just sit around taking a "rest". I can just imagine them telling their friends that they cannot understand why they don't lose weight since they go to the gym all the time.

Unless you take responsibility and apply yourself, you will always be that person in the gym wasting your time and money getting nowhere.

ONCE AGAIN MY POINT IS BEING SIDELINED! I don't want anyone to impress me with proof that consistant profitability is do-able. I want them to impress upon me that this is not the exception to the rule.

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bobbyacim View Post
XENO,
I AM NOT trying to challenge you or anyone else on thiS forum, EVERYONE PLEASE STOP GETTING DEFENSIVE.


Quoting 
Perhaps because no one on this forum can honestly say they are CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE AND BACK IT UP WITH PROOF EITHER???

Certainly sounds like a challenge to me.

No one is being defensive. It's just that people have heard all this before.

What you are saying is that because you have failed at day trading for six years despite all the money you've spent that day trading for a living is practically impossible. You want everyone to agree with you to make you feel better. I know you have a problem with this sort of psycho-analysis, and the irony is that that is the same problem you have with trading. An inability to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

Hey, I know it's not easy. That's the reason why I trade 100% automated.

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  #30 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
ONCE AGAIN MY POINT IS BEING SIDELINED! I don't want anyone to impress me with proof that consistant profitability is do-able. I want them to impress upon me that this is not the exception to the rule.

Err, I don't think anyone disagrees that a much smaller percentage make a living from day trading than don't. What percentage makes it an exception to a rule is up for debate, but all over trading forums you'll see plenty of comment that only a small percentage of day traders make a living from it.

So what?

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  #31 (permalink)
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I have been a spectator for most of this thread and agree with most of the posts. It is my understanding that he is not looking for motivation by seeing consistency, but looking for validation that an average retail trader can be consistently profitable. In doing so, this would be his determining factor in weather to continue in this venture. It would also validate if most retail traders are not just hobbyist, dreamers who can't compete with the institutional traders.

But, again I stand on the side that there are very profitable traders right here in this forum and it is kind of obvious who they are. My broker has a leader board as well and you can see the profits these guys are making and the beginners with small profits. Would most if not all brokers websites have a leader board?

Bobby, I hope I didn't speak out of line or implied something that is not you're intentions.

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  #32 (permalink)
 
 
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Please don't take this personal.

But if you would receive 5 statements that showed you profits of over $100k a year in daytrading for like 10 years in a row, even then you would have all the odds against you to become profitable.

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  #33 (permalink)
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It would be nice if this thread were closed. Bobbyaicm has made a very valid point: he's spent a lot of money on education and never seen proof of success in retail day trading.

He didn't ask for help. He didn't ask for advice. He didn't ask for etiquette reminders. He asked if anyone could show him proof of success in retail day trading.

I'd say there are plenty of forum members who have also spent a lot of money on education and never seen proof of success in retail day trading. Reading through this thread and reading all the unsolicited advice and condescending statements directed toward Bobby, I'm compelled to add simply this: seeing a simple trading statement will not provide proof. To see proof of success as a retail trader you really need to find someone who is successful and spend some time with them. See where they live, what they drive, what their lifestyle is and get to know their circumstances. For example, if you were injured at work, received a multi-million dollar settlement, and now "trade for a living", then it might not be your trading that is actually providing your lifestyle. Another example... if your wife is a cardiac surgeon and you stay home with the kids - and trade - then even though you might put in profitable months now and again, it's not the trading that is providing your lifestyle.

It seems that to really get proof of success in retail day trading, it would be necessary to actually get to know the person, learn about their backgrounds and what other activities they engage in, etc. I believe there are a handful of successful retail traders here. The problem is, most successful traders already have pretty full lives and are not likely open to letting someone into their personal space for the purpose of proving something to them.

@Bobby, I like your question. And I don't care whether you type in all caps, or without punctuation (like sharky does), or any other way you choose to communicate. However, I don't know how to solve your situation short of you actually finding someone in your area that would be willing to help. One last point: as per another thread here, it's not easy to find retail day traders because quite often, if you ask what they do for a living, they will not say "I'm a day trader." Best of luck and have a great 2011.

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  #34 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
Please don't take this personal.

But if you would receive 5 statements that showed you profits of over $100k a year in daytrading for like 10 years in a row, even then you would have all the odds against you to become profitable.


LOL...Again, no one is negating that. At least I'm not. It is my understanding that he is just looking for validation that there are profitable retail traders that exist, nothing more or less.

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  #36 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
THAT IF ANY METHOD OUT THERE COULD BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, IT WOULD HAVE GONE VIRAL A LONG TIME AGO AND EVERYONE WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT

And it would no longer work. Any potential profits would be competed out of any method that went viral. Your understanding of the markets you trade is the method. Your judgment is the method.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #37 (permalink)
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itrade2win View Post
LOL...Again, no one is negating that. At least I'm not. It is my understanding that he is just looking for validation that there are profitable retail traders that exist, nothing more or less.


I think he really knows the answer to that question. To think otherwise, would be ludicrous. Peel away the layers, and I believe you are left with a very frustrated and envious individual.

Most people can't stand the thought of other people making money, while they are not. It is one of the reasons traders chase the market, buy tops, sell bottoms, and make other bad decisions; because they worry about others catching the move, while they are missing out.

Big Mike is spot on in his assessment and his advice.

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  #38 (permalink)
 
 
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aslan View Post
I have read a lot of books and have bought things over the years. I have usually gotten something out of each item, but long ago got over the idea that I was going to buy "the system/indicator". Instead of thinking you can buy the end game, do the work.

This is a healthy approach. I find that the expectations from any program are beyond what could be delivered.

When looking for education specifically in trading today, I am always looking for specific things that would serve as a building block on top of what I know. I am not looking to imitate anyone, adopt a new method with each book, etc.

Too often I see retail based traders change course and method with every vendor they trust.
if that is the route you take, it's irrelevant if you spend $10K or $30K because the fee for each vendor is different. More $$ does not mean more quality.

Rather then looking at someone's bottom line results that no one supplies ( and sometimes legally can't) evaluate if the program could serve as building block in your foundation to becoming a trader. This change in thinking would help you determine if you need to take another course that promises to "help with psychology"..."trade with the trend" and "cut your losses short"...sooner that later you will see a pattern within educators that repeat the same thing.

Let's admit to something: we can't as traders completely trade someone else methodology because we have our own risk tolerance and capital. So, the only thing we could look for is TRUE and genuine approaches that would help us shape our way of thinking of market action not for manuals to follow.

I do believe in education and I was mentored once myself over a decade ago.
My mentoring sessions resembled the episodes of the "Soup Nuttsy" from Seinfeld...he was a different kind of guy to say the least, but he got some things drilled into my head.

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  #39 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
DAVIDHP,


HOWEVER THE ORIGINAL QUESTION STILL STANDS!

And it will continue to stand, because even those who have what you want will not give it to you, and even if a few did you would just consider them to be outliers. No one here denies that the vast majority majority of day traders fail. Even the vast majority of would be pit traders fail, and in some sense they are professionals.

I have seen traders that you would term "professional" succeed spectacularly with no advantage over you except a stronger platform (TT) a direct connection to the exchange, which is available to you, capital, training, ability, and a powerful belief in themselves. Many of these guys do not use charts, don't even have them on their workstations. They trade pairs called the FITE or the NOB or the EUFOR. Frequently their strongest skill is execution.

IMO, a professional is just an amateur who has succeeded.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #40 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
Folks, It looks like I am not going to get my question answered on this forum either.. Oh well, I will continue to ask this same question in hundreds of other forums until I tire.

Bobby, if your goal is to be a profitable trader, I would suggest using your time to journal and learn from your own actions and mistakes so you can maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. But, I have a feeling this approach does not agree with you, so that probably means you would be happier doing something other than trading.

However, if your goal is simply to make money (without being a trader yourself), and if you want someone else to trade for you as it seems like you may (you keep looking externally for methods and systems), why not simply hire a financial advisor from some big firm and go put your money to work with them, and let them handle the methodology. This would seem to be a better fit for you, this way you can spend your time researching the firm and the credentials of the person handling your money, which seems to be a strong suit for you, and not micro-manage the day to day operation of trading, which seems to be a weak point for you.


jstnbrg View Post
IMO, a professional is just an amateur who has succeeded.

I agree I've often said a "Master" trader is just a trader who has made all the mistakes and survived.

Mike

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  #41 (permalink)
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Hey guys,

Discussion is good. But the point of discussion on futures.io (formerly BMT) is to help people, so lets keep that in mind when replying. Bite your tongue a bit, reword your post before submitting, etc so that it is helpful and not just a post for the sake of posting.


DavidHP View Post
Several points to consider:

1. TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS RUDE!!!

I agree with David, I find it rude when someone types in all caps. It's considered YELLING and if you were yelling at me to my face, I would be offended and wouldn't allow it to continue. So since everyone is communicating electronically here, I am asking that Bobby respect that yelling is rude and to stop posting in all caps.


DavidHP View Post
2. You have been looking in the wrong place.
3. You have been asking the wrong question.

While I agree with David, I don't think me simply agreeing is going to help anyone. Some members may get a satisfaction out of it, but as for truly helping someone like the OP Bobby, it doesn't help.

So I want to add that it is my opinion that Bobby is looking externally for his answers to his own trading, and now that has led him down this path of now wanting/demanding proof of success or profits.

I get the impression Bobby is very skeptical when it comes to psychology having an impact with trading. I can relate to that, as in the beginning I felt very similar. In fact, my entire life I've never really explored or been a big fan of anything to do with psychology. It was always a "yeah, right" topic for me, something I didn't need in my life to explain away things. However, I was wrong. Psychology is the single biggest area that traders should focus on in trading, in my opinion of course. I don't make this statement simply based on my own trading, but also based on hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of others who have contacted me personally via the forum and who I see post each day.

The traders who have actively taken my very simple advice of "looking within" and starting a trading journal are the ones that agree it has opened their eyes and allowed them to realize what they should really be focusing on, which is their own actions - their execution of the method instead of the method itself. Naturally, not every trader who simply took the advice to start a journal is profitable. But I can't think of any trader who has not learned something from the experience or thought it was a waste of time.


DavidHP View Post
4. Traders owe you NOTHING and proving profitability does nothing for them.
5. The purpose of trading is to transfer your account into mine.
(I am your competition why should I help you?)

and lastly... I owe you NOTHING... Anything I give you or allow you to see is being gracious.

It's true in the general sense. But, as a member of futures.io (formerly BMT), you do owe everyone some things, one being respect. Respect that even if you disagree admittedly with Bobby, you can still try to put yourself in his shoes and understand what he is going through. Bobby owes you his respect as well. Everyone on futures.io (formerly BMT) should respect everyone else, and if they don't, I don't want them here and will remove them.

Then you owe it to him to try and help. One of the fundamental beliefs of futures.io (formerly BMT) when it was founded was the simple notion of "helping others will help yourself", the whole pay-it-forward aspect. The most active members on futures.io (formerly BMT) are the ones who are also benefiting the most from futures.io (formerly BMT). The more you get involved, the more you engage with others, the more you will benefit. This is not just a circle of life thing. This is also about teaching. When you go to explain something to someone else, it helps reaffirm your own beliefs, or call them into question. In fact, many traders find that taking on a student is one of the best things they can do to improve their own trading.




DavidHP View Post
Trading is tough. If you can't handle that, perhaps you need to try something else.

I have shared my personal journey on the forum several times. Trading is, by far, the hardest thing I have ever done. It is also the most rewarding. And during the entire process, I have learned more about myself than I could have ever even imagined. That means I am also happier than I ever knew I could be, and that I have found what is truly important in my life. It isn't money, it isn't trading, it is happiness. Trading is an activity that allows me to be happy.

Everyone should find what makes you truly happy, you owe it to yourself.

Happy New Year!

Mike

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  #42 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
Myself as well as others I personally know have been dupped by the "Dream Merchants" of the trading world which includes Educators, System Vendors, Ebook Authors, Private Mentorship programs and even home spun system developers selling their wares on sites like ebay and Lulu.com- all claiming to be consistantly profitable!
My personal experience has been that none can offer any kind of PROOF OF ACTUAL PROFITABLITY when they are called out on it!! YOU JUST HAVE TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT, WHY????

Oh, yes some can offer proof of OCCASIONAL PROFITS INTERMIXED WITH LOSSES,
BUT NO ONE IN THE LAST 6 YEARS OF MY EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH CAN OFFER PROOF THAT THEY CONSISTANTLY ARE PROFITABLE AND THEREFORE LIVE SOLEY OFF OF THEIR TRADING RESULTS!

For those who still cling to the mantra that the key to profitable trading is Education, Education, Education, let me give you a sample of the trading education I have participated in over the past 6 years and at an approx. cost of over $10,000

Eminiacademy $5,000
Eminitradingstrategies $1,500
4xmadeeasy $600
Teachmetotrade $999
E=MC2 trading method $500
and a slew of hardcover, ebooks and 10 page trading instuctional downloads

I have also clocked over 5,000 hours between metatrader and ninjatrader in sim mode.

Still not consistantly profitable, but as I said earlier, I can not find anyone else who is either, at least not with ACTUAL PROOF!!!

Hi, I guess we think alike in some ways. I agree with you that it is kind of funny that nobody can show their proof of profitability. So many claim it, but can never actually show it. I grew up in Missouri "The Show Me State" and not the "Imagine if IT Were Possible State".

I think the key that everyone is sharing with you is that they believe that maybe you are asking those questions due to negative thinking or control thinking or whatever limiting term you want to put on it.

However, I wanted you to see this here as per Big Mike that there are successful traders that are verified, you just don't get to talk to them daily as they are busy making money in the market off of OPM. (See attached, it was there free newsletter release)

Not everybody's goals are the same. To me, WHEN I become more consistent then I will be managing a PAMM type account with millions, not hitting my 2 points on CL and calling it a day, or trying to sale some course because I get 3 ticks out of the ES daily.. etc.. Nothing wrong with any of those, but to me my standards are for those guys making what I consider 'real money' as for some reason I like making Millions not thousands but I also realize that is my own judgement and perspective on life.

Enjoy!

--EDIT: P.S. Please check out https://www.iasg.com/ also

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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!-5-steps-trader.pdf   Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!-barclay-hedge.pdf  
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  #43 (permalink)
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itrade2win View Post
I have been a spectator for most of this thread and agree with most of the posts. It is my understanding that he is not looking for motivation by seeing consistency, but looking for validation that an average retail trader can be consistently profitable. In doing so, this would be his determining factor in weather to continue in this venture. It would also validate if most retail traders are not just hobbyist, dreamers who can't compete with the institutional traders.

But, again I stand on the side that there are very profitable traders right here in this forum and it is kind of obvious who they are. My broker has a leader board as well and you can see the profits these guys are making and the beginners with small profits. Would most if not all brokers websites have a leader board?

Bobby, I hope I didn't speak out of line or implied something that is not you're intentions.

Thank you so much Ryan for so accurately describing the essence of what I have been pondering myself and now in this forum for the last 6 years!

I appreciate all the good advice given and will certainly reflect on it.

I apologize to everyone for not being able to truly communicate what my intentions were when I intially posed this question.

The journey continues...

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  #44 (permalink)
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Original poster, what is your definition of "consistently profitable"? e.g. what winrate, time frame or frame of reference do you use?

Investing is by definition a zero-sum game, someone has to take the other side of the trade. Essentially, everything revolves around the net present value of your dollar. To increase capital, only place bets with a positive expectation value and accept the variance of your system. If you do not have the confidence to follow your system remain in the R&D phase to create a system that fits your personal requirements.

It is a fact is that it takes time and massive effort to excel in anything, as a daytrader one has to face fierce competition. Namely amateur and professional villains, and institutions across the world that employ their capital in the same instruments as you are betting on. The question is what is your specific edge?

If you favor to do a fundamental analysis e.g. analyzing the balance sheet, income statement, cash flows, etc. You might want to look into trading with a longer time horizon. Such as value investing like Warren Buffet, Benjamin Graham and Whitney Tilson.

I am convinced that your quest for "proof" is a mere distraction from your goal to make money as you stated. Why is this so important to you? Consider that their past performance does not guarantee their success in the future. It might be useful to take notes based on their methods however it might not be suitable for your trading style.

These are just my 2 cents.

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  #45 (permalink)
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I wouldn't doubt there is an inverse correlation to the amount of money spent on "education" and profitability.
I mean if you aren't sharp enough to understand why it is illogical that someone would teach you such things for a price you could actually afford to start with, you basically are getting what you deserve IMO.

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  #46 (permalink)
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Cogito ergo sum View Post

I am convinced that your quest for "proof" is a mere distraction from your goal to make money as you stated. Why is this so important to you? Consider that their past performance does not guarantee their success in the future. It might be useful to take notes based on their methods however it might not be suitable for your trading style.

These are just my 2 cents.

Did you see the Clooney movie about "The Men Who Stare At Goats"
Netflix: Rent as many movies as you want for only $8.99 a month! Free Trial

I do believe people MAY be able to walk through walls or kill goats with their thoughts, (Spoiler alert, too late) but seeing it sure would make it easier for me to try.

I do believe when you see something, like an NBA pro slamming a basketball into the net then it is much easier to slam that ball or believe you have the opportunity to do so, even though I have almost broken my back a few times trying. haha.... The bigger question to me is that why are people so afraid to show profitability?

When we used to go surfing, we would always watch a good surf video 30 minutes prior. You know what, it always helped my surfing. I truly hope that the worlds best surfers, golfers, business leaders don't hide behind pseudonymous.

Modeling is one of the most commonly used methods of success in any business. Modelling winners is always the better option regardless of 'Zero Sum' which I do not agree that Trading is or anything in this life is. Show me a 4 minute mile and I am much more apt to believe it and do it. We all don't need to be trailblazers and rarely will we be.

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  #47 (permalink)
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You accuse everyone of missing your point. Your point is not lost on everyone. The raison d'etre of this forum is to share and exchange information and ideas. It is not the appropriate venue for displaying your track record or even having to verify your credibility. It's taken for granted that the majority of the posters are going to tell the truth, but as is the case in so many other areas of life, there will always be a minority that doesn't. It's up to you to use your intuitive gifts, to tell them apart.

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  #48 (permalink)
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009

There are traders out there whose work is valuable and can indeed teach you something. The problem is finding them as they will not advertise or spend much time on this forums posting. They will mentor a few people a year to remain in human contact, but their time will be spend for the most part trading their own account.

I believe that although they take newbies, none of their training is really tailored for newbies. There are a lot of different things as to what makes the markets move that cant be taught in 5 days like most "educators" try to do, but rather takes months to learn, if not years. Many of those very same traders went to school for 4-6 years to learn the financial markets, and then were taught to trade by their firms and mentors. Many started as part of the back office, and moved to the trading desk.

I believe, the challenge for anyone who is not on that field, is that they will lack the necessary education that all those professional traders have in order to understand the market. In order to be in avlevel footing, I believe one should educate oneself and learn what they know.

I forgot who posted the following link, but I found it of incredible value as it confirmed what I personally belived:

Free Prop Trader Training

I would also say take a look at the NYIF courses... they are a lot more affordable than many educators and will provide greater value towards educational credits, etc.

Trading - eLearning - Financial Training

There are no shortcuts for trading IMO... all the knowledge you will gain and spend years taking in, will only account for about 5-10% of what you really need to trade... I believe the rest, is all having to do with money management(which you learn as well) and psychology or emotions (hesitation, doubt, fear)... there are tons of books smart people who will never be traders (i.e. Quants) given that trading is more about knowing yourself than anything else..

just my 2 cents...



bobbyacim View Post
Myself as well as others I personally know have been dupped by the "Dream Merchants" of the trading world which includes Educators, System Vendors, Ebook Authors, Private Mentorship programs and even home spun system developers selling their wares on sites like ebay and Lulu.com- all claiming to be consistantly profitable!
My personal experience has been that none can offer any kind of PROOF OF ACTUAL PROFITABLITY when they are called out on it!! YOU JUST HAVE TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT, WHY????

Oh, yes some can offer proof of OCCASIONAL PROFITS INTERMIXED WITH LOSSES,
BUT NO ONE IN THE LAST 6 YEARS OF MY EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH CAN OFFER PROOF THAT THEY CONSISTANTLY ARE PROFITABLE AND THEREFORE LIVE SOLEY OFF OF THEIR TRADING RESULTS!

For those who still cling to the mantra that the key to profitable trading is Education, Education, Education, let me give you a sample of the trading education I have participated in over the past 6 years and at an approx. cost of over $10,000

Eminiacademy $5,000
Eminitradingstrategies $1,500
4xmadeeasy $600
Teachmetotrade $999
E=MC2 trading method $500
and a slew of hardcover, ebooks and 10 page trading instuctional downloads

I have also clocked over 5,000 hours between metatrader and ninjatrader in sim mode.

Still not consistantly profitable, but as I said earlier, I can not find anyone else who is either, at least not with ACTUAL PROOF!!!


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  #49 (permalink)
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dutchbookmaker View Post
I wouldn't doubt there is an inverse correlation to the amount of money spent on "education" and profitability.
I mean if you aren't sharp enough to understand why it is illogical that someone would teach you such things for a price you could actually afford to start with, you basically are getting what you deserve IMO.

While that may be a harsh way of putting it, I've long thought that a higher percentage end up as good traders from the books/experience route than the endless courses and indicators route.

The problem being that courses are less likely to push you into the experience/hard work path, since you believe you've been taught how to trade, or bought decent indicators that should work (because they cost money right?)

I'm wary about making generalisations in trading, but I really doubt whether there are any good traders who don't have an intimate feel for what they're doing. Surely that only comes from doing it and analysing for a significant period of time. No doubt you can cut some corners - books and forums can help you to avoid some of the errors.

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  #50 (permalink)
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Xeno View Post
I'm wary about making generalisations in trading, but I really doubt whether there are any good traders who don't have an intimate feel for what they're doing. Surely that only comes from doing it and analysing for a significant period of time. No doubt you can cut some corners - books and forums can help you to avoid some of the errors.

In the beginning I would look at some other forums and find people who I admired or at the very least felt like they were successful traders, so I would try to read all their posts and understand them. I remember being frustrated, because so many posts were just generic tidbits like "let your winners run and cut your losers quick".

When people would press over and over for more information on how a specific trader actually traded, like why did he go long here or exit there, the answers continued to be generic and what I (at the time) considered evasive. Why can't he just explain in concrete terms why he did something?? (I thought to myself) Where is the <x> line crosses <y> value = go long? Where are the specifics?

Then as time went by and I became more experienced and successful myself, I too found that the answers I would sometimes give were more of a simplistic nature. More intuitive. What I found is that tidbits like "let your winners run" used to aggravate the hell out of me, but are incredibly true. For example, I believe the majority of traders that are struggling don't let their winners run. They can't because they are too beat up from a psychology point of view from their past trades and bad habits that were formed. If humans didn't instinctively run away from predators we probably would have died off a long time ago, so it is in our nature to run and fear certain things. Pain is one of them, and trading can be incredibly painful. Your mind starts to protect you from this pain, and there is something called self-sabotage where you literally (unknowingly) are taking actions to "minimize the pain", sometimes this means you blow up your account so the pain will just stop.

That is why I keep harping on looking within. All this search for external factors to improve your trading can only get you so far. It can take you from the dirt road to the highway. But once you get on the highway, you need to figure things out for yourself, so to speak. My method won't work for you just like someone elses method won't work for me. A lot of vendors that sell stuff try to make believe that isn't true, that all you need to do is buy blue and sell red. I bought one system in my day that promised such a thing. Luckily, one was enough for me to realize it was bullshit. Then there are other vendors, not as many but they exist, who truly try to help. Just like I, and others, on this forum try to help. They will teach you some core things about the market and methods but also try to teach you how to develop your own process.

Accountability is key. Until you accept responsibility for your own actions and losses in trading, you will never succeed. Only once you stop blaming others will you come to the point where you realize your losses are your own. Even then, the road ahead is very difficult. It will take a lot of time and deep reflection to overcome your weaknesses and build upon your strengths. I literally had to become a different person to be a successful trader. The skills and strengths that had allowed me to succeed as C-level executives in the corporate world were not at all compatible with success in trading. But only once I finally admitted I was the problem could I finally start to correct the problem.

Mike

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  #51 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
ONCE AGAIN MY POINT IS BEING SIDELINED! I don't want anyone to impress me with proof that consistant profitability is do-able. I want them to impress upon me that this is not the exception to the rule.


Why? What would you get out of it? Sleep better at night? Turn instantly profitable? Frankly, if this is what you are concerned about, then trading is not for you. Stop wasting your time and find something else to do.

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  #52 (permalink)
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thatguy View Post
Why? What would you get out of it? Sleep better at night? Turn instantly profitable? Frankly, if this is what you are concerned about, then trading is not for you. Stop wasting your time and find something else to do.

Thanks for your concern over my sleeping pattern!

Honestly, I don't know what the long term effect would be if i was to recieve a satisfactory answer to my inquery. Perhaps it would plant a seed of inspiration and in anything thats tough to do, a little inspiration can go a long way.

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  #53 (permalink)
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I equate education in the trading business to trying to buy a Rolex from a street vendor. You know for a fact that some are genuine and most are not. Plus the fakes are of varying quality, some excellent... others are garbage. The problem is... you aren't allowed to examine them before buying. Some are in a glass display case. Some are out in the open (but they're still "do not touch") and some only in the catalog. You have to pick one or more semi-blindly.
Now, I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would make such a major purchase under these conditions. Yet these are the exact conditions that aspiring traders have to deal with. It's insane!

As to your original question.. Of course it's the exception to the rule. We all know that 95% of traders lose.

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  #54 (permalink)
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Slipknot511 View Post
I equate education in the trading business to trying to buy a Rolex from a street vendor. You know for a fact that some are genuine and most are not. Plus the fakes are of varying quality, some excellent... others are garbage. The problem is... you aren't allowed to examine them before buying. Some are in a glass display case. Some are out in the open (but they're still "do not touch") and some only in the catalog. You have to pick one or more semi-blindly.
Now, I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would make such a major purchase under these conditions. Yet these are the exact conditions that aspiring traders have to deal with. It's insane!

As to your original question.. Of course it's the exception to the rule. We all know that 95% of traders lose.

Great analogy!
To para-phrase TRO,

The markets are totally random, with a small trending component, Sadly even that trending component is random so it does not matter where you place a trendline, if you wait long enough, eventually a price bar will bounce off of it.

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  #55 (permalink)
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

If the markets are random how come 9 out of 10 of my trades are profitable or break even ?

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  #56 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
If the markets are random how come 9 out of 10 of my trades are profitable or break even ?

WOW!

Dare I ask??

Is that on a consistant basis and if you had to, could you prove it?

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  #57 (permalink)
 
 
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Yes, but it's only since a few months, so I have no clue if I will be able to do the same in 2011.

Let's see.

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  #58 (permalink)
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I'm with MetalTrade on this one... the markets are anything but random.
The markets are a manifestation of people. And people, while irrational at times, are anything but random. People are predictable.

Many confuse the ambiguity, confusion, contradictions and uncertainty that the markets make one feel, for randomness. Not the same thing.

And, just to keep this thread on topic... I personally know several people who trade for their primary, and usually only, source of income. They have done so for between 7 to 25 years. I don't think there's any better proof than that.
But the truth about the markets is irrelevant. You can only trade your beliefs. And the question is, "Can you consistently make money from those beliefs?". Based on what I've seen, I believe the answer is yes.

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  #59 (permalink)
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

Maybe the reason profitable traders don't show their profits it's because they know they might be responsible in letting you loose everything you have and maybe everything what your closest family and friends have.

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  #60 (permalink)
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Slipknot511 View Post
I'm with MetalTrade on this one... the markets are anything but random.
The markets are a manifestation of people. And people, while irrational at times, are anything but random. People are predictable.


And, just to keep this thread on topic... I personally know several people who trade for their primary, and usually only, source of income. They have done so for between 7 to 25 years. I don't think there's any better proof than that.
But the truth about the markets is irrelevant. You can only trade your beliefs. And the question is, "Can you consistently make money from those beliefs?". Based on what I've seen, I believe the answer is yes.

I completely agree that markets are people. People are VERY PREDICTABLE.

Not sure 'people' or typical people are the one's trading these days and I think the market dynamic as such has changed. I do believe that yes, it is still doable, so I do not mean to discount that, but I do believe that things like GS and other firms being able to be a bonafide 'hedger' for S&P and CL etc. makes the futures markets a little more bumpy, but still very trade-able.

Question: How do you surround yourself with profitable traders in person?

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  #61 (permalink)
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There may be periods when the market is totally random and chaotic, and there may times when the market is strongly efficient, but the majority of the time the market is inefficient, and these inefficiencies can provide the trader who understands them, a comparative advantage. Technical analysis considers what market has done in the past and what market participants are actually doing now. Quantitative techniques rely on equilibrium and mean reversion models. The diversity in analytic techniques, time frames, motivation, and perception of data, insures that there will be a non-linear effect on price changes, but does not mean they not deterministic. Traders must periodically re-evaluate strategies and alter the ways they trade, because the drivers of price change are constantly evolving.

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  #62 (permalink)
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I posted my November and December P/L in my journal, even showing a statement from my broker with my year-end P/L, showing a profit for the year.

So there you go.

Now what are *YOU* going to do?

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  #63 (permalink)
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The problem is that all the courses that you have taken so far are probably discretionary methods. The subjectivity of any 'discretionary' method by design will cause that method to be a failure for half the people who try it. Vendors themselves will call their method discretionary to shift the success/failure of the method to the extent and manner in which the user applies his or her discretion in using that method. That way, the method itself is never held accountable. If the person is profitable, then it is a 'successful' method; if the person is loses money using the method, then the person's 'discretion' in using the method is at fault. It is a win/win for the method creator/vendor.

I personally take any method deemed 'discretionary' with a grain of salt. Every method out there can be made 100% rule based, and leave nothing to discretion. There is, practically, only a finite number of market price action occurrences that will generally be encountered in the market. Include all these in the rules in your method, and any exceptions to those rules, and anything outside of this subset is not trade-able. You might end up with a method with 5 entry rules, and 10 exceptions to those rules, with exact money management. If the market behaviour does not fit within these 15 scenarios, you don't touch the mouse. Now, if a trader buys that system, and takes every trade that fits these rules, and he loses money, it is because that system's expectancy is crap, not because the user misused the method, or used bad discretion.

I trade a purely mechanical system, every trade on my chart has a 'name', that name identifies an exact picture of market behavior; unless the market gives and exact photocopy of that named picture, I don't trade. And, every trade I enter, has the exact same money management, exact fixed risk, and the exact same fixed target. If I give you my rule set, and you trade it, at the end of the day, I can lay my chart on top of yours with all our marked trades, and they should be exact duplicates. If I made money that day, then you made money.

Unless, a vendor markets you a purely mechanical system of this nature, then don't spend a dime on it, or if you buy it, don't expect him to stand behind your profitability, because your failure will be blamed directly on your 'discretionary' usage of that system.

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  #64 (permalink)
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That was a really good post. Especially about rule sets. I tend to do the same thing and have a set of mechanical-based entries with exceptions that are written down.

If I can't make sense of a setup with my exceptions in my mind in real time then I have to watch the trade go by without me.

One of my weaknesses is creating too many 'filters' for my setups or trade management as a way to 'tweak' or enhance potential profitability. This attempts to squeeze out more 'edge' than may really exist.

Found that if I spend less time in front of the monitor in split sessions with a faster time frame and the potential for more trades {with session stop and loss limits} that this fit with my psychology better and allowed me to stop overclocking my setups.

This resulted in lower risk initially and using tighter trade management.

I really really agree with this last poster that any method that even uses a 'touch' of discretion; well, then it slides into the individuals consciousness and then each trader (as we all know) will trade it differently in a myriad of ways--depending on expectations, psychology, experience and personal preferences.

Thank you for this excellent analysis!

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  #65 (permalink)
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monpere View Post
Unless, a vendor markets you a purely mechanical system of this nature, then don't spend a dime on it, or if you buy it, don't expect him to stand behind your profitability, because your failure will be blamed directly on your 'discretionary' usage of that system.

Good post. I would point out though that it's very unlikely that a vendor will sell you a purely mechanical system that makes money consistently. I hope the reasons are obvious.

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  #66 (permalink)
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Xeno View Post
Good post. I would point out though that it's very unlikely that a vendor will sell you a purely mechanical system that makes money consistently. I hope the reasons are obvious.

I have successfully traded a purely mechanical system for the past 4 years, it has been extremely consistent. That consistency may be because it is a 1:2 risk/reward scalping system, and I am risking 3 ticks to make 6, or risking 4 ticks to make 8, and no matter what time of year, or what the market condition, 6 to 8 ticks moves are abundant in the instruments I trade, and I generally get 15 to 20 setups a day.

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  #67 (permalink)
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I probably wasn't clear enough. I meant, no one will sell you one, not that they don't exist.

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  #68 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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monpere View Post
The problem is that all the courses that you have taken so far are probably discretionary methods. The subjectivity of any 'discretionary' method by design will cause that method to be a failure for half the people who try it. Vendors themselves will call their method discretionary to shift the success/failure of the method to the extent and manner in which the user applies his or her discretion in using that method. That way, the method itself is never held accountable. ...

When a guru teaches a new trading system, he/she doesn't teach the mental syntax they use to successfully trade the system. Even with a none discretionary system you may need to look within for possible conflicts. For example, part of you values security and so you may get anxious before a trade. Part of you wants to protect you from failure, so you procrastinate when you get a signal. Part of you protects your self-esteem, so you don't take losses quickly until they're big. Part of you wants to be right and generates a bias that's in conflict with your signal. etc.

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  #69 (permalink)
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monpere View Post
I have successfully traded a purely mechanical system for the past 4 years, it has been extremely consistent. That consistency may be because it is a 1:2 risk/reward scalping system, and I am risking 3 ticks to make 6, or risking 4 ticks to make 8, and no matter what time of year, or what the market condition, 6 to 8 ticks moves are abundant in the instruments I trade, and I generally get 15 to 20 setups a day.

Hi Monpere,

That sounds very nice. I am not asking you for the market(s) you trade or the setups; but if you would be so kind to briefly reply if your r:r (risk/reward) is 1:2 does that mean that every win is 2 for your risk of 1?

I have always found (and maybe I am doing it wrong or not as efficient as some) that I MUST begin to use trade management when my trade gets at least 60% or more (approximately) to my target; in effect when I do my profit factor I never get the 2 shekels for every 1 shekel of risk.

For scalping I have never been aware of not getting alot of scratches and smaller wins and smaller losses along with my full initial full target wins and initial full stop losses.

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  #70 (permalink)
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researcher247 View Post
Hi Monpere,

That sounds very nice. I am not asking you for the market(s) you trade or the setups; but if you would be so kind to briefly reply if your r:r (risk/reward) is 1:2 does that mean that every win is 2 for your risk of 1?

I have always found (and maybe I am doing it wrong or not as efficient as some) that I MUST begin to use trade management when my trade gets at least 60% or more (approximately) to my target; in effect when I do my profit factor I never get the 2 shekels for every 1 shekel of risk.

For scalping I have never been aware of not getting alot of scratches and smaller wins and smaller losses along with my full initial full target wins and initial full stop losses.

I trade all in, all out, fixed risk, fixed target. Every trade will give me +6 ticks, -3 ticks, or break even. I don't do discretionary trade management. My only trade management is that my ATM takes care of my break even stop movement. My trades generally last an average of 90 seconds, so there is actually little time for trade management. I am a scalper, some would say micro scalper, because I cannot stay in a trade more then 3 minutes, or I get ants in my pants. Once I click the mouse and enter a trade, I walk away until I hear the trade has exited, because if I stay and watch it, I will want to mess with it.

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  #71 (permalink)
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Monpere,

Your pimp hand is very strong! Nice. Sounds like you are able to do what you do because of the micro nature of your trading. You simply don't have time to do trade management.

What a great solution with a super r:r.

Thanks for the reply!

Have a smooth one.

R247

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  #72 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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monpere View Post
...Once I click the mouse and enter a trade, I walk away until I hear the trade has exited, because if I stay and watch it, I will want to mess with it.

Gee! you are missing all the fun

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  #73 (permalink)
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I empathize with the OP. Not because I am a losing trader ( I am only trading very very small size at the mo, and I am relatively pleased with the results at this early stage), but because I still feel as if I need validation that the profitable traders are not just the outliers.

As an analogy; get a room of 1000 people and get them to flip a coin ten times in a row, 1 or 2 of them will probably get the same thing 10 times in a row. If you were filming every person, you could take the video of the people who got them all in a row and use it to try and prove they had some type of coin flipping power/skill.

The thing is though, if they kept flipping away, their anomalous run would evaporate at some stage, it is just a question of when.

what the question "are there profitable traders" is underscoring is really "Is it possible to get an edge trading, or is the market random over the long haul".

While I am not convinced that i know the answer, I am 90% sure that an edge can be won, but it has to be figured out and related to specific markets, and specific conditions through experience and hard work. Just following principles that you read in a book or learn at a course will not work if you do not truly understand WHY they are principles in the first place.

I decided to get into trading because my thought process was "It is just a case of knowledge. Most people don't make the effort because it is too much to learn, and most people just follow along with the 9 - 5 daily job path they have had laid out for them via legacy".

I assumed that with hard work and learning getting to understand how economics works, how money flows,... basically how the whole finance system works, it would then just being a case of putting that knowledge into practice to invest. However as I progressed I saw that the world of daytrading which I was attracted to was mired in what I consider to be worthless technical analysis techniques (not saying all are invalid ), and people chasing their tails because they do not understand randomness and probability.

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  #74 (permalink)
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monpere View Post
I have successfully traded a purely mechanical system for the past 4 years, it has been extremely consistent. That consistency may be because it is a 1:2 risk/reward scalping system, and I am risking 3 ticks to make 6, or risking 4 ticks to make 8, and no matter what time of year, or what the market condition, 6 to 8 ticks moves are abundant in the instruments I trade, and I generally get 15 to 20 setups a day.

I have done something similar w/ Forex. However, I have never been able to scale it to a point of profitability to provide for myself. I am happy you are able to do it, and something to strive for.

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  #75 (permalink)
Bala, PA, USA
 
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bluemele View Post
I have done something similar w/ Forex. However, I have never been able to scale it to a point of profitability to provide for myself. I am happy you are able to do it, and something to strive for.

I've never traded Forex, but I'm not sure this strategy would work very well there because if you are going for 6 ticks target, you can't give 2 or 3 ticks of that to your broker as a spread, and you cannot afford any slippage on your entries.

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  #76 (permalink)
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Twiddle View Post
I empathize with the OP. Not because I am a losing trader ( I am only trading very very small size at the mo, and I am relatively pleased with the results at this early stage), but because I still feel as if I need validation that the profitable traders are not just the outliers.

Profitable traders are the outliers. (As I've said earlier on this thread, that's even true for pit traders). So are successful restauraunters, NBA stars (and college stars) etc. That doesn't mean we are the trillionth monkey hammering at a keyboard, the one that types a work of Shakespeare, it just means that success is relatively rare in any competitive endeavor.

The OP was basically asking the question, is it really possible to make money trading? Are price movements subject to analysis in a way that makes it possible to make money from them? If the answer to that question is no, then companies like Getco and Renaissance should not be profitable. They don't have information that is not available to all, they are just better at processing the information they do have. I know a couple of the founding investors at Getco, and it was started with less than $2 million in initial capital. Getco is massively and consistently profitable and I do not believe that all of the algorithms they employ are predatory. For years I have detected what I would call "testing" algorithms in the Treasury complex that briefly step out on one part of the complex and then detect what influence that change in price has on the other parts of the complex. For example, ZN goes bid. If the change causes a substantial change in something else, such as ZF or ZB or cash, going bid too or other buyers rushing into ZN as well, i.e. the price change "sticks", ZN stays bid. Otherwise it goes sellers immediately as the algo attempts to scratch. I suspect that if it can't scratch it sells something else (makes a pairs trade) in a pair will be easy to scratch.

The distinction between professionals and amateurs in the electronic marketplace is a false one. These days, the pros can make money with information that is available to us all. That means it's possible for us to do it too.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #77 (permalink)
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jstnbrg View Post
Profitable traders are the outliers. (As I've said earlier on this thread, that's even true for pit traders). So are successful restauraunters, NBA stars (and college stars) etc. That doesn't mean we are the trillionth monkey hammering at a keyboard, the one that types a work of Shakespeare, it just means that success is relatively rare in any competitive endeavor.

The OP was basically asking the question, is it really possible to make money trading? Are price movements subject to analysis in a way that makes it possible to make money from them? If the answer to that question is no, then companies like Getco and Renaissance should not be profitable. They don't have information that is not available to all, they are just better at processing the information they do have. I know a couple of the founding investors at Getco, and it was started with less than $2 million in initial capital. Getco is massively and consistently profitable and I do not believe that all of the algorithms they employ are predatory. For years I have detected what I would call "testing" algorithms in the Treasury complex that briefly step out on one part of the complex and then detect what influence that change in price has on the other parts of the complex. For example, ZN goes bid. If the change causes a substantial change in something else, such as ZF or ZB or cash, going bid too or other buyers rushing into ZN as well, i.e. the price change "sticks", ZN stays bid. Otherwise it goes sellers immediately as the algo attempts to scratch. I suspect that if it can't scratch it sells something else (makes a pairs trade) in a pair will be easy to scratch.

The distinction between professionals and amateurs in the electronic marketplace is a false one. These days, the pros can make money with information that is available to us all. That means it's possible for us to do it too.

Whheewww!... That went straight over my head!

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  #78 (permalink)
Taipei Taiwan
 
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jstnbrg View Post

For years I have detected what I would call "testing" algorithms in the Treasury complex that briefly step out on one part of the complex and then detect what influence that change in price has on the other parts of the complex. For example, ZN goes bid. If the change causes a substantial change in something else, such as ZF or ZB or cash, going bid too or other buyers rushing into ZN as well, i.e. the price change "sticks", ZN stays bid. Otherwise it goes sellers immediately as the algo attempts to scratch. I suspect that if it can't scratch it sells something else (makes a pairs trade) in a pair will be easy to scratch.

Human traders also do that also. Looking at the ZN while trading the ZB to see price action.

Also I wonder how much is algo and how much is auto spreaders trading the curve.

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  #79 (permalink)
Chicago, Illinois
 
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monpere View Post
Whheewww!... That went straight over my head!

The whole thing, or just part?

About the pit traders: High fixed costs ($3,000/month and up), long learning curve, brutal competition.

Check out this link about the monkeys: Infinite monkey theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Getco and Renaissance are big algo firms. Getco was started by CME floor traders and brokers who recognized that screen trading would change the business. It's now one of the largest traders in the world in all electronically traded markets. Renaissance was started a long time ago (60's? 70's?) by a mathematician with a background in cryptography and signal processing and is, according to "The Quants", the most consistently profitable hedge fund in the world.

The narrative about the price action in the Treasury complex is a partial description about how I think the dominant price discovery algo works. The idea of price changes being "tests" is common in trading. Imagine a contract making a new high on the day. Does it trigger a wave of further buying, or does selling come in to meet it? That's a simple example of a test.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #80 (permalink)
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traderwerks View Post
Human traders also do that also. Looking at the ZN while trading the ZB to see price action.

Also I wonder how much is algo and how much is auto spreaders trading the curve.

I used to work with about 40 of those human traders. Most of them are out of business, including a guy who made $3 million his second year trading. And it was talent, not luck and overtrading. The guy was a freak of nature.

I look at ZB, ZN, and ZF all at the same time. Auto spreaders (auto leggers) can't get you a good fill IMO. I used to do this for a living using autospreaders, but in 2004 I started getting legged up about half the time (hung on one leg of the spread) and it wiped out my profitability. The algo I'm talking about steps out on the leg that is hard to get (eg if everyone is short the NOB, you either have to step out buying ZN or step out selling ZB). You might sometimes have a chance if you have the absolute fastest combination of hardware and colocation, but I think usually you'll get screwed.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #81 (permalink)
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monpere View Post
I've never traded Forex, but I'm not sure this strategy would work very well there because if you are going for 6 ticks target, you can't give 2 or 3 ticks of that to your broker as a spread, and you cannot afford any slippage on your entries.

Yup, different animal entirely, but you can do amazing volumes.

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  #82 (permalink)
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Is this the same post anymore? I do not even have a clear reason as to why I am posting, other than to give you the truth.

Your question is superb! May I reword it?

Is it possible to make any money daytrading?
If it is possible will anyone give some kind of verifiable proof?
Is it too much to ask of any one that is selling something that they at least can verify their products?
Is there a successful trader out there, that will teach you how they do it?

I came upon this site by pure accident. I googled a name and I just picked a site and I ended up here. I saw some posts about Ninja trader that interested me, so I started looking around a little. Decided to post on this tread even though I am breaking one of my rules of never exposing my self.

Does anyone make money? Yes, but what in the world makes you think that you are going to be that one person in 200 that actually does?

Trying to get any verification? good luck with that! Only 1 out of 200 has the proof and they are not going to expose anything to anyone. Then there is the other catagory you found here. Notice all the defensive responces? That's because they know they can not do it.

The hard cold truth is, the knowledge is out there but not for sale.

Why do you think this site even exists? All these people have a belief that some one somewhere is going to share a tid bit of knowledge and then they will make money.

What I have is the knowledge. It is like a huge treasure chest filled with rare coins and gold bars. But I have it hidden. No one knows, not even my wife. So why would I ever expose the secret location, or any hint as to where the treasure is buried?

Think about it----Why would I ever give up my edge??? It' s what I know that you don't. Why would I ever give it up?

And there's your answer. No one who really is making money will give up their edge.
If it is for sale, or if you are reading it for free on the internet----stop---it will not work!!!!
No one gives away the secret location to their buried treasure.
But if they do, you can be sure it really isn't worth anything!!!

You will know you have found your treasure when you realize you are no longer looking.

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  #83 (permalink)
the coin hunter
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farmer55 View Post
...

The hard cold truth is, the knowledge is out there but not for sale.

agree not for sale, for free actually.



Quoting 
What I have is the knowledge. It is like a huge treasure chest filled with rare coins and gold bars. But I have it hidden. No one knows, not even my wife. So why would I ever expose the secret location, or any hint as to where the treasure is buried?

why? because some can


Quoting 
Think about it----Why would I ever give up my edge??? It' s what I know that you don't. Why would I ever give it up?

its not an edge, edge will be gone eventually. Find a market truth learn how it moves then move with it just like learning how to dance.


Quoting 
You will know you have found your treasure when you realize you are no longer looking.

finally we can agree on this.

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  #84 (permalink)
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farmer55 View Post

The hard cold truth is, the knowledge is out there but not for sale.

And there's your answer. No one who really is making money will give up their edge.
If it is for sale, or if you are reading it for free on the internet----stop---it will not work!!!!
No one gives away the secret location to their buried treasure.
But if they do, you can be sure it really isn't worth anything!!!

You will know you have found your treasure when you realize you are no longer looking.

The original poster was not asking us for the location to the treasure. He was just asking for some verification that treasure exists, that someone has found treasure. Uploading statements to supply that proof would not give away the location to the treasure, but it might give away personal information best kept private. I think that's why he hasn't gotten any takers.

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  #85 (permalink)
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jstnbrg View Post
The original poster was not asking us for the location to the treasure. He was just asking for some verification that treasure exists, that someone has found treasure. Uploading statements to supply that proof would not give away the location to the treasure, but it might give away personal information best kept private. I think that's why he hasn't gotten any takers.

I think the original poster was talking about vendors who sell trading courses should back up there system with proof that it is profitable. I fully agree. I only spent about $2500 on my education to buy one system, and like most of us have experienced, it was crap! So I decided, no more! I just tried to pick up bits and pieces of wisdom for free wherever I could find it, and that included webinars and free trials. I don't think you will find many systems out there that you will buy and will make you money, but you might pick up a nugget or two of wisdom that will help you out - is it worth $2500? you have to be the judge of that, but there is enough free information out there, together with some hard work and screen time, for you to be able to concoct a profitable system from.

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  #86 (permalink)
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farmer55 View Post
...
Why do you think this site even exists? All these people have a belief that some one somewhere is going to share a tid bit of knowledge and then they will make money.
..
Think about it----Why would I ever give up my edge??? ...

Hi Farmer55,

I think there are other valid reasons for a site other than what you have stated.

There are many ways that experienced traders can help and share with others that has nothing to do with their edge.
some examples:
If you see someone trying something that you have tried before you can share your experience with them of what happened for you, as can others and traders who has not yet had the experience can benefit from their experience. Let's say that someone has never really used stochastic indicator before and wants to learn when they might work best, when they give false indications, what other indicators to look at to confirm the signals and so on.

When the experienced traders share their experience they are not "giving up their edge". They may or may not even be using stochastics anymore. Yet by pooling the collective experiences the newer trader can learn, save time and benefit from the experience of those who have gone before. Even the experienced traders can learn for they may hear of an approach with stochastics that they have never thought of using. They might revisit the question themselves or experiment with the technique on another indicator.

There are many reasons for sharing and helping others and gracious people have found this out.

One of the great consolations of the universe is that you cannot help another if your have their best interests at heart, without helpng yourself. [source unknown, approximate quote].

Life is about more than money. When you die you will leave your money and possessions behind you. There is no U-haul behind a hearse.

You will carry forward the love, kindness and compassion you have shown your fellow man. Gather not treasures that rust and rot. Rather gather those treasures which are of the kingdom of heaven and last forever.

Farmer I am very happy you have found your key to trading success - I mean that sincerely. I would never ask you to share "your edge" and as you say, if it is simply explained and easily copied, then when known widely through the competitive nature of the markets if will disappear. (I don't think anyone has asked you.).

My thoughts are just relax and enjoy your abundance. No one is trying to steal it from you. Use your abundance to enjoy and better your life and that of your loved ones. And then if you feel inclined use some of your material wealth to benefit those who need help but only if you can give in a loving and gracious manner. (Grow Rich with Peace of Mind, by Napolean Hill may be of service to you.


Quoting 
The gift of a stingy heart is gift is no gift at all - Robert Neils

On my desk before me is one of Louise Hay 'Wisdom cards" (It just happened to be there, LOL)

"I rejoice in other people's successes because I know that there is plenty for everyone."


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  #87 (permalink)
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@bobbyacim i hope you find your way to profitable daytrading,i post my trades all the time and my method is there for you for free as i created it for free as well as about 50 other methods all for free just sitting at my stupid computer watching price and thinking about what i was seeing and how i could visulize what i see for others to share...sharky

KILLING THE MARKETS DAILY
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  #88 (permalink)
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Aquarian1,

Your post proves my point. Did you read any of it? I did pass on some knowledge, but is was of the variety you don't want to hear.

If you see someone trying something that you have tried before you can share your experience with them of what happened for you, as can others and traders who has not yet had the experience can benefit from their experience

I plainly told you that none of that stuff works! But you refuse to believe it. Why?

If it is for sale, or if you are reading it for free on the internet----stop---it will not work!!!! What part of that statement don't you understand? I think you do understand, but refuse to believe it, Thus you will continue down your same path.

Moving on. I think this may help you understand about my views concerning wealth. One question would have to be answered correctly before I would even consider teaching someone what I know. And that is----- What exactly are you going to do with all this money you are going to make? If I don't get the answer I want, I wouldn't share.

Take the post right after yours------50 free systems. Now just ask yourself------If any of them were any good, wouldn't this site be all about that one system that works?

It's impossible for most people to admit they are wrong. Because it means in some cases that decades have been lost in search of something in which they are no closer to now than when they began.

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  #89 (permalink)
Houston,Tx
 
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I met a fella here in Texas that says he has written a software program that will pick winning numbers for the Texas Lottery. He sells the software for $9.95. He says no one knows about it because the State of Texas is doing everything they can think of to keep the information out of the press because it will cost them too much money paying every one if word gets out and they have even put out a contract on him out of desperation. In fact that is why he lives in a van parked down by the river .

Should I buy this software?


Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of. This post is meant purely for entertainment and should not be confused with a real thought.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #90 (permalink)
Holland, Michigan
 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
I met a fella here in Texas that says he has written a software program that will pick winning numbers for the Texas Lottery. He sells the software for $9.95. He says no one knows about it because the State of Texas is doing everything they can think of to keep the information out of the press because it will cost them too much money paying every one if word gets out and they have even put out a contract on him out of desperation. In fact that is why he lives in a van parked down by the river .

Should I buy this software?


Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of. This post is meant purely for entertainment and should not be confused with a real thought.

EXECELLANT!!!

Rick

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  #91 (permalink)
new york
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Broker: mb trading
Trading: 6e
 
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sharky View Post
@bobbyacim i hope you find your way to profitable daytrading,i post my trades all the time and my method is there for you for free as i created it for free as well as about 50 other methods all for free just sitting at my stupid computer watching price and thinking about what i was seeing and how i could visulize what i see for others to share...sharky

Sharky,
THANKS for your encouragement and your generosity. Evidently you are not only a good trader, but also a good human being. I am discouraged, but not discounted, YET.

I am currently trying Price divergence on 3 range(6E) and an RSI(set at 5, smoothing of 7) along with 50ema& 20ema. Looking for divergence signal near a bounce(pivot) off of either ema,(going in the direction of the 50EMA of course)

My R/R ratio is 6ticks/3 ticks( 2:1) incrementally moving up the stop to 2 ticks after 1 tick gain, then break-even after 2 ticks gain, then 4/2 and finally 5/1

Since I have a day job, I can trade the 6am to 9:00 time, otherwise i record the session in ninjatrader and sim trade it later than nite.

Will let you know.....

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  #92 (permalink)
Point Roberts, WA, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
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Broker: IB
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sharky View Post
@bobbyacim i hope you find your way to profitable daytrading,i post my trades all the time and my method is there for you for free as i created it for free as well as about 50 other methods all for free just sitting at my stupid computer watching price and thinking about what i was seeing and how i could visulize what i see for others to share...sharky

thanks Sharky,

You've got a good heart - keep trucking!

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  #93 (permalink)
Point Roberts, WA, USA
 
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farmer55 View Post
Aquarian1,

Your post proves my point. Did you read any of it? I did pass on some knowledge, but is was of the variety you don't want to hear.


Yes I read all your post.
You seem to be all upset about systems and people wanting to steal your "edge".
I have no interest in arguing, fighting or debating with you or anyone else, or "proving a point"

I was:
  1. happy for you that you are making money
  2. trying to get you to relax and enjoy it and life
  3. hoping you would understand I don't want you to share your stuff
  4. and offering you a very good book to read which you might both enjoy and find it of benefit in living a richer fuller life.

All the best to you.

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  #94 (permalink)
Chicago, Illinois
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninjatrader, TT, InvestorRT
Broker: Advantage Futures, Ninja/TT and InvestorRT/IQFeed.
Trading: Treasury futures
 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
In fact that is why he lives in a van parked down by the river .

Chris Farley writes software?

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #95 (permalink)
Houston,Tx
 
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jstnbrg View Post
Chris Farley writes software?

Not recently... he died in 1997.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #96 (permalink)
Minneapolis+ MN / USA
 
 
Posts: 31 since Jan 2011
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I am currently trying Price divergence on 3 range(6E) and an RSI(set at 5, smoothing of 7) along with 50ema& 20ema. Looking for divergence signal near a bounce(pivot) off of either ema,(going in the direction of the 50EMA of course)

My R/R ratio is 6ticks/3 ticks( 2:1) incrementally moving up the stop to 2 ticks after 1 tick gain, then break-even after 2 ticks gain, then 4/2 and finally 5/1


After reading this----------I give up!

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  #97 (permalink)
Bala, PA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Broker: Mirus, IB
Trading: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
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farmer55 View Post
I am currently trying Price divergence on 3 range(6E) and an RSI(set at 5, smoothing of 7) along with 50ema& 20ema. Looking for divergence signal near a bounce(pivot) off of either ema,(going in the direction of the 50EMA of course)

My R/R ratio is 6ticks/3 ticks( 2:1) incrementally moving up the stop to 2 ticks after 1 tick gain, then break-even after 2 ticks gain, then 4/2 and finally 5/1


After reading this----------I give up!

What do you mean?

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  #98 (permalink)
Dallas, TX
 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
I met a fella here in Texas that says he has written a software program that will pick winning numbers for the Texas Lottery. He sells the software for $9.95. He says no one knows about it because the State of Texas is doing everything they can think of to keep the information out of the press because it will cost them too much money paying every one if word gets out and they have even put out a contract on him out of desperation. In fact that is why he lives in a van parked down by the river .

Should I buy this software?


Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of. This post is meant purely for entertainment and should not be confused with a real thought.


I would get him to sell the software for free and then I would share the winnings with him. That would net the fella a whole lot more money. Oops wait I guess he was just selling "the dream"!

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  #99 (permalink)
Minneapolis+ MN / USA
 
 
Posts: 31 since Jan 2011
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Monpere

I give up trying to explain to him that he is looking in the wrong place. The original post was about spending $10,000, and not getting what he payed for. But he's still trying these same ideas. Give up already and throw all that stuff away. But that is not what he wants to hear.

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  #100 (permalink)
Taipei Taiwan
 
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Trading: TW
 
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farmer55 View Post
Monpere

I give up trying to explain to him that he is looking in the wrong place. The original post was about spending $10,000, and not getting what he payed for. But he's still trying these same ideas. Give up already and throw all that stuff away. But that is not what he wants to hear.

@farmer55

Everyone has to make their own journey.

Q. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. None—the lightbulb has to want to change.

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