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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!
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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

  #41 (permalink)
Site Administrator
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Hey guys,

Discussion is good. But the point of discussion on futures.io (formerly BMT) is to help people, so lets keep that in mind when replying. Bite your tongue a bit, reword your post before submitting, etc so that it is helpful and not just a post for the sake of posting.


DavidHP View Post
Several points to consider:

1. TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS RUDE!!!

I agree with David, I find it rude when someone types in all caps. It's considered YELLING and if you were yelling at me to my face, I would be offended and wouldn't allow it to continue. So since everyone is communicating electronically here, I am asking that Bobby respect that yelling is rude and to stop posting in all caps.


DavidHP View Post
2. You have been looking in the wrong place.
3. You have been asking the wrong question.

While I agree with David, I don't think me simply agreeing is going to help anyone. Some members may get a satisfaction out of it, but as for truly helping someone like the OP Bobby, it doesn't help.

So I want to add that it is my opinion that Bobby is looking externally for his answers to his own trading, and now that has led him down this path of now wanting/demanding proof of success or profits.

I get the impression Bobby is very skeptical when it comes to psychology having an impact with trading. I can relate to that, as in the beginning I felt very similar. In fact, my entire life I've never really explored or been a big fan of anything to do with psychology. It was always a "yeah, right" topic for me, something I didn't need in my life to explain away things. However, I was wrong. Psychology is the single biggest area that traders should focus on in trading, in my opinion of course. I don't make this statement simply based on my own trading, but also based on hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of others who have contacted me personally via the forum and who I see post each day.

The traders who have actively taken my very simple advice of "looking within" and starting a trading journal are the ones that agree it has opened their eyes and allowed them to realize what they should really be focusing on, which is their own actions - their execution of the method instead of the method itself. Naturally, not every trader who simply took the advice to start a journal is profitable. But I can't think of any trader who has not learned something from the experience or thought it was a waste of time.


DavidHP View Post
4. Traders owe you NOTHING and proving profitability does nothing for them.
5. The purpose of trading is to transfer your account into mine.
(I am your competition why should I help you?)

and lastly... I owe you NOTHING... Anything I give you or allow you to see is being gracious.

It's true in the general sense. But, as a member of futures.io (formerly BMT), you do owe everyone some things, one being respect. Respect that even if you disagree admittedly with Bobby, you can still try to put yourself in his shoes and understand what he is going through. Bobby owes you his respect as well. Everyone on futures.io (formerly BMT) should respect everyone else, and if they don't, I don't want them here and will remove them.

Then you owe it to him to try and help. One of the fundamental beliefs of futures.io (formerly BMT) when it was founded was the simple notion of "helping others will help yourself", the whole pay-it-forward aspect. The most active members on futures.io (formerly BMT) are the ones who are also benefiting the most from futures.io (formerly BMT). The more you get involved, the more you engage with others, the more you will benefit. This is not just a circle of life thing. This is also about teaching. When you go to explain something to someone else, it helps reaffirm your own beliefs, or call them into question. In fact, many traders find that taking on a student is one of the best things they can do to improve their own trading.




DavidHP View Post
Trading is tough. If you can't handle that, perhaps you need to try something else.

I have shared my personal journey on the forum several times. Trading is, by far, the hardest thing I have ever done. It is also the most rewarding. And during the entire process, I have learned more about myself than I could have ever even imagined. That means I am also happier than I ever knew I could be, and that I have found what is truly important in my life. It isn't money, it isn't trading, it is happiness. Trading is an activity that allows me to be happy.

Everyone should find what makes you truly happy, you owe it to yourself.

Happy New Year!

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.


Last edited by Big Mike; December 31st, 2010 at 02:06 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
Myself as well as others I personally know have been dupped by the "Dream Merchants" of the trading world which includes Educators, System Vendors, Ebook Authors, Private Mentorship programs and even home spun system developers selling their wares on sites like ebay and Lulu.com- all claiming to be consistantly profitable!
My personal experience has been that none can offer any kind of PROOF OF ACTUAL PROFITABLITY when they are called out on it!! YOU JUST HAVE TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT, WHY????

Oh, yes some can offer proof of OCCASIONAL PROFITS INTERMIXED WITH LOSSES,
BUT NO ONE IN THE LAST 6 YEARS OF MY EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH CAN OFFER PROOF THAT THEY CONSISTANTLY ARE PROFITABLE AND THEREFORE LIVE SOLEY OFF OF THEIR TRADING RESULTS!

For those who still cling to the mantra that the key to profitable trading is Education, Education, Education, let me give you a sample of the trading education I have participated in over the past 6 years and at an approx. cost of over $10,000

Eminiacademy $5,000
Eminitradingstrategies $1,500
4xmadeeasy $600
Teachmetotrade $999
E=MC2 trading method $500
and a slew of hardcover, ebooks and 10 page trading instuctional downloads

I have also clocked over 5,000 hours between metatrader and ninjatrader in sim mode.

Still not consistantly profitable, but as I said earlier, I can not find anyone else who is either, at least not with ACTUAL PROOF!!!

Hi, I guess we think alike in some ways. I agree with you that it is kind of funny that nobody can show their proof of profitability. So many claim it, but can never actually show it. I grew up in Missouri "The Show Me State" and not the "Imagine if IT Were Possible State".

I think the key that everyone is sharing with you is that they believe that maybe you are asking those questions due to negative thinking or control thinking or whatever limiting term you want to put on it.

However, I wanted you to see this here as per Big Mike that there are successful traders that are verified, you just don't get to talk to them daily as they are busy making money in the market off of OPM. (See attached, it was there free newsletter release)

Not everybody's goals are the same. To me, WHEN I become more consistent then I will be managing a PAMM type account with millions, not hitting my 2 points on CL and calling it a day, or trying to sale some course because I get 3 ticks out of the ES daily.. etc.. Nothing wrong with any of those, but to me my standards are for those guys making what I consider 'real money' as for some reason I like making Millions not thousands but I also realize that is my own judgement and perspective on life.

Enjoy!

--EDIT: P.S. Please check out http://www.iasg.com/ also

Attached Thumbnails
Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!-5-steps-trader.pdf   Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!-barclay-hedge.pdf  
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  #43 (permalink)
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itrade2win View Post
I have been a spectator for most of this thread and agree with most of the posts. It is my understanding that he is not looking for motivation by seeing consistency, but looking for validation that an average retail trader can be consistently profitable. In doing so, this would be his determining factor in weather to continue in this venture. It would also validate if most retail traders are not just hobbyist, dreamers who can't compete with the institutional traders.

But, again I stand on the side that there are very profitable traders right here in this forum and it is kind of obvious who they are. My broker has a leader board as well and you can see the profits these guys are making and the beginners with small profits. Would most if not all brokers websites have a leader board?

Bobby, I hope I didn't speak out of line or implied something that is not you're intentions.

Thank you so much Ryan for so accurately describing the essence of what I have been pondering myself and now in this forum for the last 6 years!

I appreciate all the good advice given and will certainly reflect on it.

I apologize to everyone for not being able to truly communicate what my intentions were when I intially posed this question.

The journey continues...

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  #44 (permalink)
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Original poster, what is your definition of "consistently profitable"? e.g. what winrate, time frame or frame of reference do you use?

Investing is by definition a zero-sum game, someone has to take the other side of the trade. Essentially, everything revolves around the net present value of your dollar. To increase capital, only place bets with a positive expectation value and accept the variance of your system. If you do not have the confidence to follow your system remain in the R&D phase to create a system that fits your personal requirements.

It is a fact is that it takes time and massive effort to excel in anything, as a daytrader one has to face fierce competition. Namely amateur and professional villains, and institutions across the world that employ their capital in the same instruments as you are betting on. The question is what is your specific edge?

If you favor to do a fundamental analysis e.g. analyzing the balance sheet, income statement, cash flows, etc. You might want to look into trading with a longer time horizon. Such as value investing like Warren Buffet, Benjamin Graham and Whitney Tilson.

I am convinced that your quest for "proof" is a mere distraction from your goal to make money as you stated. Why is this so important to you? Consider that their past performance does not guarantee their success in the future. It might be useful to take notes based on their methods however it might not be suitable for your trading style.

These are just my 2 cents.

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  #45 (permalink)
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I wouldn't doubt there is an inverse correlation to the amount of money spent on "education" and profitability.
I mean if you aren't sharp enough to understand why it is illogical that someone would teach you such things for a price you could actually afford to start with, you basically are getting what you deserve IMO.

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  #46 (permalink)
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Cogito ergo sum View Post

I am convinced that your quest for "proof" is a mere distraction from your goal to make money as you stated. Why is this so important to you? Consider that their past performance does not guarantee their success in the future. It might be useful to take notes based on their methods however it might not be suitable for your trading style.

These are just my 2 cents.

Did you see the Clooney movie about "The Men Who Stare At Goats"
Netflix: Rent as many movies as you want for only $8.99 a month! Free Trial

I do believe people MAY be able to walk through walls or kill goats with their thoughts, (Spoiler alert, too late) but seeing it sure would make it easier for me to try.

I do believe when you see something, like an NBA pro slamming a basketball into the net then it is much easier to slam that ball or believe you have the opportunity to do so, even though I have almost broken my back a few times trying. haha.... The bigger question to me is that why are people so afraid to show profitability?

When we used to go surfing, we would always watch a good surf video 30 minutes prior. You know what, it always helped my surfing. I truly hope that the worlds best surfers, golfers, business leaders don't hide behind pseudonymous.

Modeling is one of the most commonly used methods of success in any business. Modelling winners is always the better option regardless of 'Zero Sum' which I do not agree that Trading is or anything in this life is. Show me a 4 minute mile and I am much more apt to believe it and do it. We all don't need to be trailblazers and rarely will we be.

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  #47 (permalink)
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You accuse everyone of missing your point. Your point is not lost on everyone. The raison d'etre of this forum is to share and exchange information and ideas. It is not the appropriate venue for displaying your track record or even having to verify your credibility. It's taken for granted that the majority of the posters are going to tell the truth, but as is the case in so many other areas of life, there will always be a minority that doesn't. It's up to you to use your intuitive gifts, to tell them apart.

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  #48 (permalink)
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There are traders out there whose work is valuable and can indeed teach you something. The problem is finding them as they will not advertise or spend much time on this forums posting. They will mentor a few people a year to remain in human contact, but their time will be spend for the most part trading their own account.

I believe that although they take newbies, none of their training is really tailored for newbies. There are a lot of different things as to what makes the markets move that cant be taught in 5 days like most "educators" try to do, but rather takes months to learn, if not years. Many of those very same traders went to school for 4-6 years to learn the financial markets, and then were taught to trade by their firms and mentors. Many started as part of the back office, and moved to the trading desk.

I believe, the challenge for anyone who is not on that field, is that they will lack the necessary education that all those professional traders have in order to understand the market. In order to be in avlevel footing, I believe one should educate oneself and learn what they know.

I forgot who posted the following link, but I found it of incredible value as it confirmed what I personally belived:

Free Prop Trader Training

I would also say take a look at the NYIF courses... they are a lot more affordable than many educators and will provide greater value towards educational credits, etc.

Trading - eLearning - Financial Training

There are no shortcuts for trading IMO... all the knowledge you will gain and spend years taking in, will only account for about 5-10% of what you really need to trade... I believe the rest, is all having to do with money management(which you learn as well) and psychology or emotions (hesitation, doubt, fear)... there are tons of books smart people who will never be traders (i.e. Quants) given that trading is more about knowing yourself than anything else..

just my 2 cents...



bobbyacim View Post
Myself as well as others I personally know have been dupped by the "Dream Merchants" of the trading world which includes Educators, System Vendors, Ebook Authors, Private Mentorship programs and even home spun system developers selling their wares on sites like ebay and Lulu.com- all claiming to be consistantly profitable!
My personal experience has been that none can offer any kind of PROOF OF ACTUAL PROFITABLITY when they are called out on it!! YOU JUST HAVE TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT, WHY????

Oh, yes some can offer proof of OCCASIONAL PROFITS INTERMIXED WITH LOSSES,
BUT NO ONE IN THE LAST 6 YEARS OF MY EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH CAN OFFER PROOF THAT THEY CONSISTANTLY ARE PROFITABLE AND THEREFORE LIVE SOLEY OFF OF THEIR TRADING RESULTS!

For those who still cling to the mantra that the key to profitable trading is Education, Education, Education, let me give you a sample of the trading education I have participated in over the past 6 years and at an approx. cost of over $10,000

Eminiacademy $5,000
Eminitradingstrategies $1,500
4xmadeeasy $600
Teachmetotrade $999
E=MC2 trading method $500
and a slew of hardcover, ebooks and 10 page trading instuctional downloads

I have also clocked over 5,000 hours between metatrader and ninjatrader in sim mode.

Still not consistantly profitable, but as I said earlier, I can not find anyone else who is either, at least not with ACTUAL PROOF!!!


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  #49 (permalink)
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dutchbookmaker View Post
I wouldn't doubt there is an inverse correlation to the amount of money spent on "education" and profitability.
I mean if you aren't sharp enough to understand why it is illogical that someone would teach you such things for a price you could actually afford to start with, you basically are getting what you deserve IMO.

While that may be a harsh way of putting it, I've long thought that a higher percentage end up as good traders from the books/experience route than the endless courses and indicators route.

The problem being that courses are less likely to push you into the experience/hard work path, since you believe you've been taught how to trade, or bought decent indicators that should work (because they cost money right?)

I'm wary about making generalisations in trading, but I really doubt whether there are any good traders who don't have an intimate feel for what they're doing. Surely that only comes from doing it and analysing for a significant period of time. No doubt you can cut some corners - books and forums can help you to avoid some of the errors.

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  #50 (permalink)
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Xeno View Post
I'm wary about making generalisations in trading, but I really doubt whether there are any good traders who don't have an intimate feel for what they're doing. Surely that only comes from doing it and analysing for a significant period of time. No doubt you can cut some corners - books and forums can help you to avoid some of the errors.

In the beginning I would look at some other forums and find people who I admired or at the very least felt like they were successful traders, so I would try to read all their posts and understand them. I remember being frustrated, because so many posts were just generic tidbits like "let your winners run and cut your losers quick".

When people would press over and over for more information on how a specific trader actually traded, like why did he go long here or exit there, the answers continued to be generic and what I (at the time) considered evasive. Why can't he just explain in concrete terms why he did something?? (I thought to myself) Where is the <x> line crosses <y> value = go long? Where are the specifics?

Then as time went by and I became more experienced and successful myself, I too found that the answers I would sometimes give were more of a simplistic nature. More intuitive. What I found is that tidbits like "let your winners run" used to aggravate the hell out of me, but are incredibly true. For example, I believe the majority of traders that are struggling don't let their winners run. They can't because they are too beat up from a psychology point of view from their past trades and bad habits that were formed. If humans didn't instinctively run away from predators we probably would have died off a long time ago, so it is in our nature to run and fear certain things. Pain is one of them, and trading can be incredibly painful. Your mind starts to protect you from this pain, and there is something called self-sabotage where you literally (unknowingly) are taking actions to "minimize the pain", sometimes this means you blow up your account so the pain will just stop.

That is why I keep harping on looking within. All this search for external factors to improve your trading can only get you so far. It can take you from the dirt road to the highway. But once you get on the highway, you need to figure things out for yourself, so to speak. My method won't work for you just like someone elses method won't work for me. A lot of vendors that sell stuff try to make believe that isn't true, that all you need to do is buy blue and sell red. I bought one system in my day that promised such a thing. Luckily, one was enough for me to realize it was bullshit. Then there are other vendors, not as many but they exist, who truly try to help. Just like I, and others, on this forum try to help. They will teach you some core things about the market and methods but also try to teach you how to develop your own process.

Accountability is key. Until you accept responsibility for your own actions and losses in trading, you will never succeed. Only once you stop blaming others will you come to the point where you realize your losses are your own. Even then, the road ahead is very difficult. It will take a lot of time and deep reflection to overcome your weaknesses and build upon your strengths. I literally had to become a different person to be a successful trader. The skills and strengths that had allowed me to succeed as C-level executives in the corporate world were not at all compatible with success in trading. But only once I finally admitted I was the problem could I finally start to correct the problem.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.


Last edited by Big Mike; December 31st, 2010 at 05:16 PM.
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