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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!


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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

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  #301 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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phantomtrader View Post
Absolutely true. And I agree that a good mentor is invaluable. It's hard to work smart when you don't have examples of what smart is!

That's why trading is so hard compared to other ventures. Good luck finding a mentor that has valuable input, though.

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  #302 (permalink)
 arjfca 
Montreal, Canada
 
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GaryD View Post

Phantomtrader may have just delivered on the money spent. Even if the education you pay for is the best money could buy, and came with years of historical proof of success, all educations lack one important factor; you must find your own way.

I fully agree with that statement.

I just realized and accepted that trading is also, mainly, an emotion game control. This is not teach by any mentor, book, forum etc.

I paid my share in training, books, etc, but all these mean nothing if I don't control my emotion. Again, This is not teach by any mentor, book, forum etc.

Learning how to control emotion will only came with gaining confidence with your own system. This is the hidden part of the game .

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  #303 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
desert CA
 
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Keeping this classic thread alive: I saw this on netpicks.com ad webinar. (screenshots)
If the first statement is true (in "tradingnightmare.jpg"), Bobby of this thread's title is by far not alone.

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  #304 (permalink)
 Family Trader 
Palm Beach County
 
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The root cause of traders failing is an inadequate amount of capital to suit their purpose/strategy and the inability to properly allocate their exposure. Something "educators" would never discuss.

Most consistently profitable traders will use the minimum exposure to establish their goal and be satisfied.

I do not believe any consistently successful traders seek to be "rich";just successful.

Trader

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  #305 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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Family Trader View Post
The root cause of traders failing is an inadequate amount of capital to suit their purpose/strategy and the inability to properly allocate their exposure. Something "educators" would never discuss.

Most consistently profitable traders will use the minimum exposure to establish their goal and be satisfied.

I do not believe any consistently successful traders seek to be "rich";just successful.

Trader

I'm a bit of a contrarian when it comes to funding an account for new traders. Although in the long run proper capital is important, for a new trader perhaps it's better that he/she start with a small account. Working with a small account can teach a trader how to protect his/her capital with smart stops and efficient setups for trades. Working with a large account from the git-go may just encourage a new trader to say "Tomorrow is another day" and continue to bleed the account with crazy trading until he/she blows it. I recognize that an account can be refunded, but the idea here is to learn the discipline of managing your money. If you can do it with a small account, you certainly will be able to do it with a well-funded, fully capitalized account.

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  #306 (permalink)
 Family Trader 
Palm Beach County
 
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phantomtrader View Post
I'm a bit of a contrarian when it comes to funding an account for new traders. Although in the long run proper capital is important, for a new trader perhaps it's better that he/she start with a small account. Working with a small account can teach a trader how to protect his/her capital with smart stops and efficient setups for trades. Working with a large account from the git-go may just encourage a new trader to say "Tomorrow is another day" and continue to bleed the account with crazy trading until he/she blows it. I recognize that an account can be refunded, but the idea here is to learn the discipline of managing your money. If you can do it with a small account, you certainly will be able to do it with a well-funded, fully capitalized account.

We may agree to disagree a little on this subject.; although I understand your points.

I take the view that the new trader has ample opportunity to hone their skills on paper or sim. Treat the strategy as real , using their desired sim fund allocation as if it were real money (what they intend to invest),and be absolutely sure they are comfortable with the strategy,including trade management.If the new trader cannot apply the necessary discipline in the 'testing' phase they have no business trading .

The new trader can start small,say 25% of their available funds, blow it: and think "well there is tomorrow and I have 75% left". Their leverage is bumped up and I'll bet you they try to "catch up". Fodder.

Personally, I believe the trader has a reasonably good chance to succeed if their set up is sound and are prepared to plod along with 1-2 contracts,regardless of type, for every 10000.If successful, 2-3 when they hit 25-30000.Will take time, but no business became a Fortune 500 company in a year.

Starting with much less must cause some unnecessary stresses on the trader and will likely become 'fodder' in time.

Having a mentor/advisor to map out the potential pitfalls of poor money management and risk: reward relationships would be extremely useful to a new trader ,even a "surviving" trader for that matter. Unfortunately, most new traders seem to think they have the answers.

Just thinking aloud, it may be some thing like a "thread" that could be set up where new traders could seek advice from others related to trade management etc. I certainly don't have all the answers,don't have much patience for dogmatism, but would be willing to help.

I could be way off base here,too

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  #307 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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Family Trader View Post
We may agree to disagree a little on this subject.; although I understand your points.

I take the view that the new trader has ample opportunity to hone their skills on paper or sim. Treat the strategy as real , using their desired sim fund allocation as if it were real money (what they intend to invest),and be absolutely sure they are comfortable with the strategy,including trade management.If the new trader cannot apply the necessary discipline in the 'testing' phase they have no business trading .

The new trader can start small,say 25% of their available funds, blow it: and think "well there is tomorrow and I have 75% left". Their leverage is bumped up and I'll bet you they try to "catch up". Fodder.

Personally, I believe the trader has a reasonably good chance to succeed if their set up is sound and are prepared to plod along with 1-2 contracts,regardless of type, for every 10000.If successful, 2-3 when they hit 25-30000.Will take time, but no business became a Fortune 500 company in a year.

Starting with much less must cause some unnecessary stresses on the trader and will likely become 'fodder' in time.

Having a mentor/advisor to map out the potential pitfalls of poor money management and risk: reward relationships would be extremely useful to a new trader ,even a "surviving" trader for that matter. Unfortunately, most new traders seem to think they have the answers.

Just thinking aloud, it may be some thing like a "thread" that could be set up where new traders could seek advice from others related to trade management etc. I certainly don't have all the answers,don't have much patience for dogmatism, but would be willing to help.

I could be way off base here,too

Well a couple of thoughts here. You mentioned stress - traders have to get used to stress - it's part of the business. What you have to learn is how to control your stress while acknowledging that it's always there. My level of stress goes up as soon as I pull the trigger. All the possibilities of a trade outcome are running through my head. Everyone wants to be right, but acknowledging that you can be wrong is stressful, but very necessary.

About sim, I think it's great to get used to the markets and test strategies. But psychologically, a trader must get used to the real thing, stress and all. I've had a few people who I've helped along the way who have said "I can do it in sim, but I always pick the wrong trade when live". Well, if that's the case, then dump the sim and get on with real life and learn how to manage the real world of trading.

What I've done with a few people is tell them to open an account for $2,500. I give them a simple setup, a few rules to follow and trade 1 contract for 1 point, one trade a day max, 1 point stop, every day picking out the best opportunity to execute that setup. That's it. No scaling, no rocket science. After a few weeks or a month, run your statistics and see how you did. Did you follow the rules? Did you pick a good execution point? What could you have done better? Not a lot of risk here. Just a real time learning experience. If someone blows their account after a few months doing this and can't follow the rules of a simple setup, then they should probably look for another career. Depending on market conditions, they may make a few bucks or they might come out slightly negative - but that's okay, as long as they followed the rules.

You have a good idea about a mentor's thread - accumulate some helpful stuff for traders, new and old, because it will benefit everyone, myself included.

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  #308 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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.
No one is touching on a particular aspect, which is not everyone is cut out to be a trader. If you are not, it's just not gonna happen. Maybe because there are things in one's psychology that would require an insurmountable effort to change, or any number of other reasons or causes. It may be a hard reality to face, but I think sometimes that is just simply the case.

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  #309 (permalink)
 gcaldridge 
port charlotte, florida
 
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Family Trader View Post
The root cause of traders failing is an inadequate amount of capital to suit their purpose/strategy and the inability to properly allocate their exposure. Something "educators" would never discuss.

Most consistently profitable traders will use the minimum exposure to establish their goal and be satisfied.

I do not believe any consistently successful traders seek to be "rich";just successful.

Trader

Whether or not inadequate capital is the 'root' cause or not, would make for a long and probably pointless discussion. It is absolutely one of the main ones.

However, an account of any size does a trader no good if they don't learn to win more than they lose. Any trader can lose a significant part of their account, even with good money management, through a death of a thousand cuts. Sure, a 'large' account might reduce stress and fear of getting wiped out really quickly and will allow time for more learning (e.g. losses) but at the end of the day you have to know that you've got to learn, acknowledge when you aren't learning and then modify your approach.

Money management and capital pose an interesting problem. For argument's sake let's say you have determined that $25,000 is 'adequate' capital and that with money management you never lose more than 1% of your capital in one trade or even in one day. However, after 6 months you find that you have lost $5,000 and now have only $20,000 in capital. Does this mean you can no longer trade because you 'need' $25k to have adequate capital? If the answer is that you can trade with $20k but you need to change your money management strategy then you would have to ask yourself why you didn't do that in the first place. This scenario of course then continues ad nausea when your $20k shrinks to $15k and so on.

PS - Here's an 'amusing' anecdote. I was looking at moving to another broker working with an algo system. He said that all I really needed to fund the account was $15k but recommended $25k. His reasoning was partly to weather any drawdowns but his 'key' argument was that if I lost $5k of $25k I wouldn't feel so bad because I had only lost 20% of my capital instead of 33% if I invested only $15k. Perception and perspective are really interesting things.

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  #310 (permalink)
 Family Trader 
Palm Beach County
 
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gcaldridge View Post
Whether or not inadequate capital is the 'root' cause or not, would make for a long and probably pointless discussion. It is absolutely one of the main ones.

However, an account of any size does a trader no good if they don't learn to win more than they lose. Any trader can lose a significant part of their account, even with good money management, through a death of a thousand cuts. Sure, a 'large' account might reduce stress and fear of getting wiped out really quickly and will allow time for more learning (e.g. losses) but at the end of the day you have to know that you've got to learn, acknowledge when you aren't learning and then modify your approach.

Money management and capital pose an interesting problem. For argument's sake let's say you have determined that $25,000 is 'adequate' capital and that with money management you never lose more than 1% of your capital in one trade or even in one day. However, after 6 months you find that you have lost $5,000 and now have only $20,000 in capital. Does this mean you can no longer trade because you 'need' $25k to have adequate capital? If the answer is that you can trade with $20k but you need to change your money management strategy then you would have to ask yourself why you didn't do that in the first place. This scenario of course then continues ad nausea when your $20k shrinks to $15k and so on.

PS - Here's an 'amusing' anecdote. I was looking at moving to another broker working with an algo system. He said that all I really needed to fund the account was $15k but recommended $25k. His reasoning was partly to weather any drawdowns but his 'key' argument was that if I lost $5k of $25k I wouldn't feel so bad because I had only lost 20% of my capital instead of 33% if I invested only $15k. Perception and perspective are really interesting things.

Short answer: That is why he is a broker ,not a trader

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  #311 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
Experience: Master
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phantomtrader View Post
Well a couple of thoughts here. You mentioned stress - traders have to get used to stress - it's part of the business. What you have to learn is how to control your stress while acknowledging that it's always there. My level of stress goes up as soon as I pull the trigger. All the possibilities of a trade outcome are running through my head. Everyone wants to be right, but acknowledging that you can be wrong is stressful, but very necessary.

About sim, I think it's great to get used to the markets and test strategies. But psychologically, a trader must get used to the real thing, stress and all. I've had a few people who I've helped along the way who have said "I can do it in sim, but I always pick the wrong trade when live". Well, if that's the case, then dump the sim and get on with real life and learn how to manage the real world of trading.

What I've done with a few people is tell them to open an account for $2,500. I give them a simple setup, a few rules to follow and trade 1 contract for 1 point, one trade a day max, 1 point stop, every day picking out the best opportunity to execute that setup. That's it. No scaling, no rocket science. After a few weeks or a month, run your statistics and see how you did. Did you follow the rules? Did you pick a good execution point? What could you have done better? Not a lot of risk here. Just a real time learning experience. If someone blows their account after a few months doing this and can't follow the rules of a simple setup, then they should probably look for another career. Depending on market conditions, they may make a few bucks or they might come out slightly negative - but that's okay, as long as they followed the rules.

You have a good idea about a mentor's thread - accumulate some helpful stuff for traders, new and old, because it will benefit everyone, myself included.

If we're speaking in generalities, this is all pretty good stuff. It was pointed out that not everyone is cut out to be a trader. Passion has a lot to do with it but many are so far behind the required level of patience and discipline that their odds of making it are practically nill...especially without considerable mentoring.

I believe a fair amount of sim trading is manditory. Trading is a skill and no skill is ever mastered without practice. In trading, practicing to hone your mechanical skills in live account trading is insanity. With a good trading system, market knowledge and the mastery of the mechanics, most traders can be taught to do well on practically any day they choose - in simulation. When they switch to trading "live", the wheels fly off. Why?

All the simulation in the world will not replicate true trading stress (emotions). A few traders are able to make the transition from sim to live and do ok. But they are such a small number that we must postulate that, as a general rule, ALL traders will blow up their first account. The psychological stresses will be so great and their defenses so weak that they will be virtually powerless to combat the urge to bend, twist, bust, mangle and break their rules. Everything they know works goes out the window. At the end of the day, after reviewing their "performance", the sickening feeling of despair and disbelief sets in and they hate themselves. But overcoming those mental monsters is another topic.

We can take a simple poll here to find out how many futures.io (formerly BMT) traders made a successful transition and never nuked their first account. If honest, I venture to say "not many". So, if we accept the postulate as overwhelmingly true, then the question is, "How much money do you want to lose?" $2500? $20,000? $100,000? You get to choose. Think of it as your "tuition" in Trading 101 to learn that "cowboying" trades doesn't work and, to succeed, you must settle down and start mastering yourself. If you give in to your emotions and break your rules even one time, you cannot call yourself a disciplined trader. Without total discipline there cannot be lasting success.

It has always puzzled me how traders will invest so much time and money in learning systems, but put virtually nothing into learning themselves.

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  #312 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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Great thread - great posts. The emotion in these pieces is as palpable as the emotion on display when people trade. The human spirit is as dichotomous as the market itself. If it is not channeled properly, trading success will be unreachable. This means the trader must have a full understanding of both the negative and positive contributions of the human spirit. He must develop the right attitude which includes: discipline, emotional control, and the ability to handle success and failure, while always guarding against negative and debilitating emotions.

Perhaps the greatest impediment a new trader faces is his emotional investment in the trade itself. The "outcome" of the trade takes on paramount importance, not the "process" entailed in making the trade. It becomes all about "being right" and making money, and not about controlling risk. Each trade is a life-and-death struggle where the emotional investment can be as skewed as the trade's risk/reward. A trader should simply recognize what he did correctly or incorrectly, and move on to the next trade.

Trading is not about being right or wrong the market, or predicting where the market is headed in the next moment, hour, day or week. Trading is nothing more than a probabilistic endeavor, and a trade is nothing more than a statistical data point. It's the next event in a series of events governed by the statistical random distribution of results. Win or lose, negative emotions should not be allowed to play a role - only the positive aspects of the human spirit should be evident: confidence, patience and humility. A trader's winning percentage is essentially, a meaningless metric. It doesn't matter if his last trade was a winner or loser, because a trader is only as good as his next trade.

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  #313 (permalink)
 holdem 
Lancaster, Pa./USA
 
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Just thought I could add some information to this thread. The web site Your Trading Coach has a great article on discipline. Lanc Beggs explains it very well. As a trader who has not been prifitable for over a year now some of his points hit home with me, ex. having a positive expectency method by which to trade by. Also, I took a trading psychology lesson from Andrew Menaker who is very good by the way. I had some failure to pull the trigger problems early on. I truely believe it comes down to having a positive belief in the method you are using, if you don't a lot of other discipline and mental issues will surface. The key is finding the right method that works for you.

How Can I Get More Discipline? | Articles-Trader-Performance


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  #314 (permalink)
 starfill 
Atlanta, GA
 
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you told the truth.


phantomtrader View Post
This is a tough business. Get over it. Everybody has spent money on software, systems, mentors, teachers, etc. Most everybody has blown an account or two before really getting serious.

Here's the thing: Either you're committed to do the hard work, take what you've learned, continue researching and learning and put it all together into a methodology which is uniquely your own, or you're going to fail. No one copy-cats in this business. You can be sitting next to the best trader in the world who shares all his/her secrets. But you have another thing coming if you think you're going to mimic his/her trades. It doesn't happen that way. Trading skill is an evolutionary process. You have to be persistent, particularly in the event of losses. If you're not in it, you can't win it.

About individual P/L's, what good is it to see someone else's profits or losses? You can't duplicate what that person is doing. And just because that person has "done it", doesn't mean YOU can do it too.

The most valuable education you can get in this business is free - it's here on this board, it's in webinars and other free tools easily found on the internet. It's people who are willing to share and answer questions. I share with people all the time and I'm happy to do it. But it's up to the individual to make it happen.

I've blown accounts and I've bought a lot of crap out there - but I consider all this as a learning experience - you always take away something - even if it's only learning what you should NOT do. I don't consider it a waste of time or money.


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  #315 (permalink)
 arjfca 
Montreal, Canada
 
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rogerf View Post
If we're speaking in generalities, this is all pretty good stuff. It was pointed out that not everyone is cut out to be a trader. Passion has a lot to do with it but many are so far behind the required level of patience and discipline that their odds of making it are practically nill...especially without considerable mentoring.

I believe a fair amount of sim trading is manditory. Trading is a skill and no skill is ever mastered without practice. In trading, practicing to hone your mechanical skills in live account trading is insanity. With a good trading system, market knowledge and the mastery of the mechanics, most traders can be taught to do well on practically any day they choose - in simulation. When they switch to trading "live", the wheels fly off. Why?

All the simulation in the world will not replicate true trading stress (emotions). A few traders are able to make the transition from sim to live and do ok. But they are such a small number that we must postulate that, as a general rule, ALL traders will blow up their first account. The psychological stresses will be so great and their defenses so weak that they will be virtually powerless to combat the urge to bend, twist, bust, mangle and break their rules. Everything they know works goes out the window. At the end of the day, after reviewing their "performance", the sickening feeling of despair and disbelief sets in and they hate themselves. But overcoming those mental monsters is another topic.

We can take a simple poll here to find out how many futures.io (formerly BMT) traders made a successful transition and never nuked their first account. If honest, I venture to say "not many". So, if we accept the postulate as overwhelmingly true, then the question is, "How much money do you want to lose?" $2500? $20,000? $100,000? You get to choose. Think of it as your "tuition" in Trading 101 to learn that "cowboying" trades doesn't work and, to succeed, you must settle down and start mastering yourself. If you give in to your emotions and break your rules even one time, you cannot call yourself a disciplined trader. Without total discipline there cannot be lasting success.

It has always puzzled me how traders will invest so much time and money in learning systems, but put virtually nothing into learning themselves.

Wow! I do recognize myself in that
- Invest a lot of money in learning
- Invest lot of time to developp software
- Invest lot of time in paper trading

- Start to trade live
- Bent my rule
- Panic at the first small gain
- Resist to close on some trade going again me
- Foraging from one system to another
- Keep trading after an extended serial loss (many loss in a row)
- Trade in tiny market ( low volume period)
- Etc....

Today I could say that I'm more confident than I use to. I'm still in the red zone, but dancing with the Brake Even line.

Now, I do start to recognize some mistake (demon) that I have like putting my stop to near the action. I did start to write down every trades that I take + few comments. Still a lot to do in these report.

For the moment, my worst stress is to loose any gain that I have. I will put my stop to close or refrain to close a small winning position because I want more.... Gready Gready Gready..... Not good

I do accept the fact that trading is an emotion game. For me and for the others to. Controlling my emotion and learning where the others participants may loose their. That is a good objective. Easiest said than done.

Martin
Excuse my English . I'm better in French...

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  #316 (permalink)
 Chuck T 
Hannibal, Mo, USA
 
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rogerf View Post
If we're speaking in generalities, this is all pretty good stuff. It was pointed out that not everyone is cut out to be a trader. Passion has a lot to do with it but many are so far behind the required level of patience and discipline that their odds of making it are practically nill...especially without considerable mentoring.

I believe a fair amount of sim trading is manditory. Trading is a skill and no skill is ever mastered without practice. In trading, practicing to hone your mechanical skills in live account trading is insanity. With a good trading system, market knowledge and the mastery of the mechanics, most traders can be taught to do well on practically any day they choose - in simulation. When they switch to trading "live", the wheels fly off. Why?

All the simulation in the world will not replicate true trading stress (emotions). A few traders are able to make the transition from sim to live and do ok. But they are such a small number that we must postulate that, as a general rule, ALL traders will blow up their first account. The psychological stresses will be so great and their defenses so weak that they will be virtually powerless to combat the urge to bend, twist, bust, mangle and break their rules. Everything they know works goes out the window. At the end of the day, after reviewing their "performance", the sickening feeling of despair and disbelief sets in and they hate themselves. But overcoming those mental monsters is another topic.

We can take a simple poll here to find out how many futures.io (formerly BMT) traders made a successful transition and never nuked their first account. If honest, I venture to say "not many". So, if we accept the postulate as overwhelmingly true, then the question is, "How much money do you want to lose?" $2500? $20,000? $100,000? You get to choose. Think of it as your "tuition" in Trading 101 to learn that "cowboying" trades doesn't work and, to succeed, you must settle down and start mastering yourself. If you give in to your emotions and break your rules even one time, you cannot call yourself a disciplined trader. Without total discipline there cannot be lasting success.

It has always puzzled me how traders will invest so much time and money in learning systems, but put virtually nothing into learning themselves.


Methinks the answer to this puzzle is found in the momentary pleasure found in denying reality. To learn myself requires honesty, high pain tolerance, hard work, and dealing with much unpleasant reality that I would rather deny and spend thousands of dollars on systems that fail and get the blame rather than the one common denominator... myself. "Know thyself" is the beginning of learning anything substantial. I have seen the enemy--- and it is me.

It is a lot more fun to have romantic notions of success if I can only find that winning system. It is also A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE! Dealing with reality is the only way to succeed over time. Truth hurts. Then truth, if applied, heals.

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  #317 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
Houston,Tx
 
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monpere View Post
.
... not everyone is cut out to be a trader....



In this country you can't get a drivers license without proving you have some degree of rudimentary knowledge of traffic rules and driving skills. Yet you can get married or open a futures/forex trading account , two activities that have broken more men than a stay in Guantanamo, with few requirements other than fill out the forms and pay the minimum requirements.

I apologize in advance to everyone who's head is going to explode and call me a Commie/Socialist/LeftWingFanatical/Democrat rat bastard... for what I am about to write .... (Actually... I have been called worse... and sadly, in most cases it was justified)

1. Getting to trade live should be like getting a drivers license ... you have to pass a written test on fundamental trading knowledge and pass a SIM trading test.

2. You can not trade in a retirement account until you have shown consistent profits trading a non-retirement account.

3. You have to track your trading progress in a trading journal on futures.io (formerly BMT) and respond to all the "helpful" comments posted by experienced traders.

Don't ya'll all feel better now... things could be worse ... I could be in charge...

Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point of the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of and especially not for any platform vendor with a questionable product and a pit bull lawyer. This post is meant purely for entertainment and should not be confused with a real thought.

I am not a programmer, coach, trainer or self appointed guru and do NOT hold myself up to be a good example for anything. I do not have a book, trading room or seminar. Even though I have an opinion on every subject under the sun, I do not give financial advice. Nor should I be held responsible for feeble attempts at humor at your expense.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #318 (permalink)
 gcaldridge 
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rogerf View Post
If we're speaking in generalities, this is all pretty good stuff. It was pointed out that not everyone is cut out to be a trader. Passion has a lot to do with it but many are so far behind the required level of patience and discipline that their odds of making it are practically nill...especially without considerable mentoring.

I believe a fair amount of sim trading is manditory. Trading is a skill and no skill is ever mastered without practice. In trading, practicing to hone your mechanical skills in live account trading is insanity. With a good trading system, market knowledge and the mastery of the mechanics, most traders can be taught to do well on practically any day they choose - in simulation. When they switch to trading "live", the wheels fly off. Why?

All the simulation in the world will not replicate true trading stress (emotions). A few traders are able to make the transition from sim to live and do ok. But they are such a small number that we must postulate that, as a general rule, ALL traders will blow up their first account. The psychological stresses will be so great and their defenses so weak that they will be virtually powerless to combat the urge to bend, twist, bust, mangle and break their rules. Everything they know works goes out the window. At the end of the day, after reviewing their "performance", the sickening feeling of despair and disbelief sets in and they hate themselves. But overcoming those mental monsters is another topic.

We can take a simple poll here to find out how many futures.io (formerly BMT) traders made a successful transition and never nuked their first account. If honest, I venture to say "not many". So, if we accept the postulate as overwhelmingly true, then the question is, "How much money do you want to lose?" $2500? $20,000? $100,000? You get to choose. Think of it as your "tuition" in Trading 101 to learn that "cowboying" trades doesn't work and, to succeed, you must settle down and start mastering yourself. If you give in to your emotions and break your rules even one time, you cannot call yourself a disciplined trader. Without total discipline there cannot be lasting success.

It has always puzzled me how traders will invest so much time and money in learning systems, but put virtually nothing into learning themselves.

RogerF:

Excellent post. 100% on target.

THE CHALLENGE

What can we, those who accept what you say, work as a community to help ourselves, to master ourselves?

All the posting, blogging, etc. won't do it. It might help others understand they have to do it but this activity by itself will not move us towards the goal of mastery.

It seems to me that there are aspects of trading that are like dieting. We read what the problem is; we read what the solution is; we buy books; we 'try' the latest 'fad'. And like trading, most dieters fail and for a lot of the same reasons. I believe there are programs like Weight Watchers that help those that have crossed a threshold of commitment. The individual still has to do the work and take responsibility but there is an 'active' support group in place to help.

It also occurs to me that people suffering from addictions like alcoholism benefit greatly from organizations like AA.

Assuming that at least some of you agree with this concept, what can we do to create such a support environment. What we have here in this forum is a great start but it is just a start (for some or most of us). I know I need to do more, a lot more, but I think I would get there quicker if I was able to get support and at least as importantly - give support to others. We help ourselves when we help others.

I have a lot more to add to this but I would like to see if there are some kindred souls to share with first.

Geoff

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  #319 (permalink)
 rogerf 
Victoria, TX
 
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gcaldridge View Post
RogerF:

Excellent post. 100% on target.

THE CHALLENGE

What can we, those who accept what you say, work as a community to help ourselves, to master ourselves?

All the posting, blogging, etc. won't do it. It might help others understand they have to do it but this activity by itself will not move us towards the goal of mastery.

It seems to me that there are aspects of trading that are like dieting. We read what the problem is; we read what the solution is; we buy books; we 'try' the latest 'fad'. And like trading, most dieters fail and for a lot of the same reasons. I believe there are programs like Weight Watchers that help those that have crossed a threshold of commitment. The individual still has to do the work and take responsibility but there is an 'active' support group in place to help.

It also occurs to me that people suffering from addictions like alcoholism benefit greatly from organizations like AA.

Assuming that at least some of you agree with this concept, what can we do to create such a support environment. What we have here in this forum is a great start but it is just a start (for some or most of us). I know I need to do more, a lot more, but I think I would get there quicker if I was able to get support and at least as importantly - give support to others. We help ourselves when we help others.

I have a lot more to add to this but I would like to see if there are some kindred souls to share with first.

Geoff

Interesting concept. Something like BTA..."Bonehead Traders Anonymous"...LOL.

Seriously, some type of support group might be of benefit but the problem is usually pretty stubborn. Many years ago I use to be a smoker. I tried everything under the sun to quit...and that was the problem. I was looking for an easy external fix to a big internal problem. I couldn't quit until I admitted the problem, realized what it was doing to me and those around me, and took a good whiff of myself. Then I had to reach way down and grasp every ounce of willpower I had in my being. I had to outlast the grasp that evil nasty habit had on me until it was out of my life forever. It took time and it took support from others...but a very special kind of support.

It was still a tough battle...but not as tough as breaking bad habits in trading. The urge to smoke eventually disappears but the urge to break rules and discipline never does. It's a constant struggle but it does get easier over time as good habits replace the bad ones and are reinforced daily.

Bad habits and negative reinforcement are the product of what's happening between our ears. I had a student once, Jim, who had a particularly hard time with his negative emotions when trading. I had him make a solemn pledge to trade by his rules, remain patient and disciplined, and totally justify every trade he took FOR JUST ONE DAY...IN SIMULATION! He just couldn't do it. He tried hypnosis, psychotherapy, relaxation techniques, etc. and nothing helped.

In trying to help him, it reminded me of my personal struggles and I could see he was looking for external "fixes" just as most people do in trying to overcome life's demons. For the longest time, he couldn't understand what I meant when I told him that the solution wasn't in reaching out...it was in reaching in...deep. But just "toughing it out" usually doesn't work...it takes guidance and support for many.

Today, Jim is one of the most disciplined traders I know and he'll be the first to tell you it wasn't easy by any means...and he didn't do it alone. He was fortunate enough to find a good Trader Coach who was not only a Doctor of Psychology but also a professional trader himself. He helped Jim to harness the human power that is within all of us to overcome his mental barriers...not by external fixes, but by internal strength. Skip the psycho babble mumbo jumbo that you hear so often. Perhaps a support group based on this concept could make a difference in some traders. I like the idea.

Know thyself and to thy own self be true.

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  #320 (permalink)
 gcaldridge 
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rogerf View Post
Interesting concept. Something like BTA..."Bonehead Traders Anonymous"...LOL.

Seriously, some type of support group might be of benefit but the problem is usually pretty stubborn. Many years ago I use to be a smoker. I tried everything under the sun to quit...and that was the problem. I was looking for an easy external fix to a big internal problem. I couldn't quit until I admitted the problem, realized what it was doing to me and those around me, and took a good whiff of myself. Then I had to reach way down and grasp every ounce of willpower I had in my being. I had to outlast the grasp that evil nasty habit had on me until it was out of my life forever. It took time and it took support from others...but a very special kind of support.

It was still a tough battle...but not as tough as breaking bad habits in trading. The urge to smoke eventually disappears but the urge to break rules and discipline never does. It's a constant struggle but it does get easier over time as good habits replace the bad ones and are reinforced daily.

Bad habits and negative reinforcement are the product of what's happening between our ears. I had a student once, Jim, who had a particularly hard time with his negative emotions when trading. I had him make a solemn pledge to trade by his rules, remain patient and disciplined, and totally justify every trade he took FOR JUST ONE DAY...IN SIMULATION! He just couldn't do it. He tried hypnosis, psychotherapy, relaxation techniques, etc. and nothing helped.

In trying to help him, it reminded me of my personal struggles and I could see he was looking for external "fixes" just as most people do in trying to overcome life's demons. For the longest time, he couldn't understand what I meant when I told him that the solution wasn't in reaching out...it was in reaching in...deep. But just "toughing it out" usually doesn't work...it takes guidance and support for many.

Today, Jim is one of the most disciplined traders I know and he'll be the first to tell you it wasn't easy by any means...and he didn't do it alone. He was fortunate enough to find a good Trader Coach who was not only a Doctor of Psychology but also a professional trader himself. He helped Jim to harness the human power that is within all of us to overcome his mental barriers...not by external fixes, but by internal strength. Skip the psycho babble mumbo jumbo that you hear so often. Perhaps a support group based on this concept could make a difference in some traders. I like the idea.

Know thyself and to thy own self be true.

I can go with BTA. Better Traders Anonymous. We'll keep the real meaning between us :-)

I love your story and once again agree 100% with it.

Also, your quote from Hamlet is a favourite of mine. (Everyone, see full quote below).

Well that is a 100% increase in the group. Who else is up for it?

Geoff

Polonius:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–82

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 TrendTraderBH 
Detroit, Michigan
 
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@Steven.

I agree totally with needing a trading psychology although I took the route of a private practice trading psychologist....it was money well spent (at least better spent than all the "systems" I bought).

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 researcher247 
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Of course!

The final frontier in trading is 'iron-willed' discipline with near-flawless execution and steely resolve.

Without it you should probably just work a real job.

Armed with it though; one gets to have the freedom that buying and selling money gives.

I still attend at least 1 archived or real-time webinar on psychology every week. I also see a trading psychologist approximately 20X's per year (I have traded full time for 27+ years now).

It is burned into my brain. Basically, successful traders brainwash (in a good way) themselves with repetition so that the concepts soak into the subconscious.

Every Sunday I skip that supernatural worship thing that some people do and read from my own good 'book(s)' on psychology and trade management and technical analysis.

This is what separates small-lot and/or marginal traders and those that then are able to trade size and create wealth over a significant amount of time (years).

There is no wealth without work. It begins within.

peace

Hedvig

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 gcaldridge 
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Steven Sontag View Post
There are many factors that determine success in trading. It is a good idea to check out you trading psychology.
Go to ultimatetradingpsychology.com Patrick has a good free 5 lesson course to get you started.

Steven:

Thanks for the post. Websites and books like this are a great idea for people to realize that they themselves are 90% of the problem and when they can successfully change their behavior they can be successful traders (can be - not will be).

I am amazed at the growing number of sites and sitechologists that are out there now telling us how we need to look after our own emotions and psychology. The intent is valid but they make it seem easy. I am amazed that they are so successful as traders that they need to run these businesses telling other people how to make money. I grow more skeptical of them every day.

On Patrick's site one of his 'key' points is:
How to quickly and easily achieve incredible self discipline, that will enable you to cut loses quickly, let your profits run and follow your system and rules

It is not quick and it is not easy. If you don't have self discipline today, as I don't, it is going to take a lot of time and effort to develop it.

Becoming a professional trader is like becoming any (successful) professional. Anyone who thinks it is easy and quick to become a golfer to compete with the likes of Tiger Woods is truly self deluded.
=============================================================================

I had a boss who used to regularly remind me of the old adage "if you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem!". Anyone can criticize but always propose an action when you do criticize.

The action I am proposing is the formation of a self-help group perhaps along the lines of Weight Watchers, Alcoholics Anonymous. The purpose of the group would be to develop a program and then support each other in that program to develop self discipline. The group doubled last week - from 1 to 2! Is anyone else interested?

Geoff

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 arjfca 
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researcher247 View Post
Of course!

The final frontier in trading is 'iron-willed' discipline with near-flawless execution and steely resolve.

Without it you should probably just work a real job.

Armed with it though; one gets to have the freedom that buying and selling money gives.

I still attend at least 1 archived or real-time webinar on psychology every week. I also see a trading psychologist approximately 20X's per year (I have traded full time for 27+ years now).

It is burned into my brain. Basically, successful traders brainwash (in a good way) themselves with repetition so that the concepts soak into the subconscious.

Every Sunday I skip that supernatural worship thing that some people do and read from my own good 'book(s)' on psychology and trade management and technical analysis.

This is what separates small-lot and/or marginal traders and those that then are able to trade size and create wealth over a significant amount of time (years).

There is no wealth without work. It begins within.

peace

Hedvig

Hello Hedvig

Mind to share web site, books , CD etc. that helped you on the psychological side of the business

Martin

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 researcher247 
Chicago, IL
 
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Hola,

I have mentioned several of these sources on my deviant personal trading/lifestyle journal.

You'll have to wade through my ramblings to find the links. I hyperlinked most of them.

It's over here: Forums - Deep thoughts...

Peace

Hedvig

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  #326 (permalink)
 nakachalet 
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I had a boss who used to regularly remind me of the old adage "if you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem!". Anyone can criticize but always propose an action when you do criticize.

The action I am proposing is the formation of a self-help group perhaps along the lines of Weight Watchers, Alcoholics Anonymous. The purpose of the group would be to develop a program and then support each other in that program to develop self discipline. The group doubled last week - from 1 to 2! Is anyone else interested?

Geoff

@geoff

am lazily interested, nevertheless interested.

beam me up and count me as #3 or just @2.5, K?

and put me in your linkage and loop, K?

thx for a great charitable idea and we'll see if it goes any where.

warm regards

<by the way, are you the same geoff who sometimes serves as technician answering some members' technical questions, in certain company, pls?>

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  #327 (permalink)
 gcaldridge 
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nakachalet View Post
I had a boss who used to regularly remind me of the old adage "if you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem!". Anyone can criticize but always propose an action when you do criticize.

The action I am proposing is the formation of a self-help group perhaps along the lines of Weight Watchers, Alcoholics Anonymous. The purpose of the group would be to develop a program and then support each other in that program to develop self discipline. The group doubled last week - from 1 to 2! Is anyone else interested?

Geoff

@geoff

am lazily interested, nevertheless interested.

beam me up and count me as #3 or just @2.5, K?

and put me in your linkage and loop, K?

thx for a great charitable idea and we'll see if it goes any where.

warm regards

<by the way, are you the same geoff who sometimes serves as technician answering some members' technical questions, in certain company, pls?>

Thank you for your 'lazy' interest 

I really appreciate your honesty in admitting this. That alone puts you far ahead of most people who say they want to learn to trade. I believe that becoming a successful, professional trader requires complete commitment (and interest). You’re either all-in or you’re out.

The first two to show ‘interest’ did not respond to my follow-up e-mails so I consider them to not be fully interested either. As a result I see that the group I wanted to build has a membership of only 1 – me.

I can 100% understand that others do not see me as the leader or co-ordinator to form such a group. I can also 100% understand that others do not think this can be done via an internet-group. If I could see an alternative I would jump at it. The one possibility of paying for a coach would work for me if I had already seen a coach that I would pay or knew how to find one.

To wrap this up, I am convinced that to become a professional trader takes the same time, commitment and discipline as becoming a commercial pilot, golfer or poker player. It takes years of concerted, focused, committed effort so that one’s underlying way of thinking, perceiving and behavior changes to be consistent with the trading environment.

If/when I determine how I can do this and how I can work it into a group I’ll put a posting back on Big Mike.

Regards

Geoff


PS - I'm not that 'other' guy.

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  #328 (permalink)
 kab0000 
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Slipknot511 View Post
success has much less to do with education and much more to do with discipline and the right mindset.
Discipline will lead to consistency. With even a modicum of consistency, patterns in your behavior can be identified and adjusted. Without some sort of consistency, it is impossible to improve as a trader since your results will essentially be random. If your results are random, you can't even identify problems much less correct them.
This is why everyone says you must keep a trade journal & log all of your trades. But I can tell you, if you don't stick with one method and trade it consistently, that trading journal is useless.
Most all traders want instant success or they have unrealistic goals. This leads them to "system search". They will try a system for a few days or weeks and if their expectations aren't met, they will move on, assuming that the system is the reason they are not making money. The reality is that poor behavior patterns are the reason they fail. But without sticking with one system long enough, those patterns never have a chance to reveal themselves.
Sooner or later you have to admit that the only common denominator in all of the failed systems you tried is you. Once you can fully embrace this, then you can stick with one system, even if you consistently lose, long enough to start seeing the behavior patterns that are causing you to lose. Only then can you stand a chance at correcting the true weak link in your trading... and it has nothing to do with how much you have spent on education.

@Slipknot511

These are wise words (IMHO) and if there was anything that amounted to a holy grail then this would be it. Stick to a system and realise mindset and discipline are as important if not more important than the system itself. You hear this a lot but I don't think most get it.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
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  #329 (permalink)
 kab0000 
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tigertrader View Post
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am not sure why there are those on this thread, that are so preoccupied with seeing other peoples' P&L. You either believe in yourself, or you don't. Trying to motivate yourself by seeing someone else's positive P&L, isn't going to be the difference between your success or failure, but believing in yourself will.

@tigertrader

I agree with the part of your statement where you say "You either believe in yourself, or you don't" but in order for some to get to this stage they may require evidence based observations (not saying that they are owed this).

I'm sure most have heard of Roger Bannister and the 4 min mile barrier. More importantly what happened after he broke it? I'm not sure if we are allowed to post videos from other sites but this short clip should illustrate the power of that evidence based observation:

With that being said and thinking about it as I am writing now it would stand to reason that very few if any successful traders would want others believing that they too could be success if this is a nil sum game. Why would they want the extra competition? It would stand to reason then that you would not get many wanting to show the money they make for that reason (assuming this unicorn does exist )

*This is an edit after reading the thread further and realising someone has already posted the Roger Bannister illustration. Apologies for the repetition.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
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  #330 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
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i think the person that made the post had a point. the trading educators that sold him all of that over price b.s. told some fairy tails along the way. we have all herd the same bed time storys. is there any one on this forum that trust trading vendors. any thing sold by a trading vendor should there not be a big red stamp ..buyer be ware and some a skull an cross bones. i fell sorry for the guy..

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 KahunaDog 
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forgiven View Post
i think the person that made the post had a point. the trading educators that sold him all of that over price b.s. told some fairy tails along the way. we have all herd the same bed time storys. is there any one on this forum that trust trading vendors. any thing sold by a trading vendor should there not be a big red stamp ..buyer be ware and some a skull an cross bones. i fell sorry for the guy..

Hope you are trading well.
Your pessimism and negativity is overflowing in this entire vendors section.
Can you please consider using punctuation in your posts? It will make it easier to follow and understand.

Fall Seven Get Up Eight
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  #332 (permalink)
 forgiven 
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KahunaDog View Post
Hope you are trading well.
Your pessimism and negativity is overflowing in this entire vendors section.
Can you please consider using punctuation in your posts? It will make it easier to follow and understand.

hope you are trading well. if you disagree.. post and point out the part that is not true. the facts are the most important thing. if i have some thing negative posted that is unfair ..make a post and make your point that i am wrong. i am not 100 % correct on ever thing. if you look i have positive post too.

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 Tymbeline 
Leeds UK
 
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forgiven View Post
if you disagree.. post and point out the part that is not true.


It's too tiresome, to do that.

And too futile: if you want an example of why, just look at the long conversation you had with myself and others about TopStepTrader. Even after methodically and painstakingly going through each post you made and listing all the factual errors, and explaining to you in detail and at length why your conclusions were all mistaken because your premises were mistaken, you still went on to ask TST how many of their funded traders are earning $200,000 a year. (A more classic example of "missing the point" couldn't be imagined.)

On that note, it had become futile even trying to educate you. Kahuna Dog is completely correct that your negativity is overflowing the entire vendors section. I've just decided to stop reading this part of the forum while you're still doing this. Nobody needs it.

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 Big Mike 
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 tigertrader 
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