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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!
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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

  #291 (permalink)
Elite Member
Reno, Nevada
 
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PowerBroker View Post
Are NOT hanging at futures.io (formerly BMT). You can bet your whole account on it!! The professionals who ARE here are here because they like to hang out and have fun and talk about trading not to teach newbie's WTF to do.

I talk to 1 professional trader only here who trades what I trade and am fortunate enough to be able to ask him questions and get constructive criticism OFF this board because he is cool enough to take my calls.

Here is some advice you can take to the grave with you. "Everyone who smiles at you IS NOT your friend"

The traders who make bank everyday in the live market who have an edge certainly do not tell other traders about it. It's why they are rich!!!


I don't agree with you. I consider myself to be a professional trader in the same way I trained to be a professional scientist. One of the most important things you learn in the lab is that 98% of all experiments go down the drain - i.e. they don't work. The outcome either failed or it was something that you didn't anticipate. Every scientist is searching for the holy grail of whatever their research involves. They don't come out of school knowing it all. Why would trading by any different?

Personally, although I am a profitable trader, I continue researching every single day. I read boards like this. I sign up for trials of everything new - Ninja Partners is a good place to find vendors. I want to know what other people are doing and why they're doing it. Then I test their methods using my own criteria. Sometimes you find something worthwhile. If you don't like research, you shouldn't be in this business. Because whatever your trading goal is, you won't succeed unless you continually ask questions and test, test, test.

Remember when you were in school and asked the teacher before the final exam: "What should I be studying for the exam." Well the smart teacher always said: "If you know everything, you won't fail." And that same philosophy applies to trading or any other serious profession. Know everything and you won't fail.

As for the successful traders you are referring to in your post, I think it's a lot of baloney. I know a lot of traders - a couple of whom are what I consider geniuses at what they do. But one thing they all have in common - they're not afraid to ask questions, they're not afraid to learn something new, and they recognize that the market is dynamic - it changes over time and your strategies must also change with it. And I have no doubt that most of them are researching the way I do - every day, reading everything, talking to other traders, digesting new market dynamics.
It's only a secret society for those who don't have the talent or wherewithall to pursue trading as a serious career.

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  #292 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
Victoria, TX
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus Futrues, Zen-Fire, IQFeed, Kinetick
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phantomtrader View Post
I don't agree with you. I consider myself to be a professional trader in the same way I trained to be a professional scientist. One of the most important things you learn in the lab is that 98% of all experiments go down the drain - i.e. they don't work. The outcome either failed or it was something that you didn't anticipate. Every scientist is searching for the holy grail of whatever their research involves. They don't come out of school knowing it all. Why would trading by any different?

Personally, although I am a profitable trader, I continue researching every single day. I read boards like this. I sign up for trials of everything new - Ninja Partners is a good place to find vendors. I want to know what other people are doing and why they're doing it. Then I test their methods using my own criteria. Sometimes you find something worthwhile. If you don't like research, you shouldn't be in this business. Because whatever your trading goal is, you won't succeed unless you continually ask questions and test, test, test.

Remember when you were in school and asked the teacher before the final exam: "What should I be studying for the exam." Well the smart teacher always said: "If you know everything, you won't fail." And that same philosophy applies to trading or any other serious profession. Know everything and you won't fail.

As for the successful traders you are referring to in your post, I think it's a lot of baloney. I know a lot of traders - a couple of whom are what I consider geniuses at what they do. But one thing they all have in common - they're not afraid to ask questions, they're not afraid to learn something new, and they recognize that the market is dynamic - it changes over time and your strategies must also change with it. And I have no doubt that most of them are researching the way I do - every day, reading everything, talking to other traders, digesting new market dynamics.
It's only a secret society for those who don't have the talent or wherewithall to pursue trading as a serious career.


Now that's about the best, truest, most insightful post you'll find in this thread.

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  #293 (permalink)
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Reno, Nevada
 
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rogerf View Post
Now that's about the best, truest, most insightful post you'll find in this thread.


Thanks, Roger.

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  #294 (permalink)
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port charlotte, florida
 
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rogerf View Post
Now that's about the best, truest, most insightful post you'll find in this thread.

I'll second that!

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  #295 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangkok
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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phantomtrader View Post
The most valuable education you can get in this business is free - it's here on this board, it's in webinars and other free tools easily found on the internet. It's people who are willing to share and answer questions. I share with people all the time and I'm happy to do it. But it's up to the individual to make it happen.


Whilst I agree with you on the "Trading is hard" part. I do not agree on "everything you need is on this forum", or any other forum to be honest.

It's not because there's no useful stuff on it, it's just that for every decent item on the forums, there's a few hundred items of complete nonsense.

I don't see how someone is realistically expected to see the good stuff from the bad until they already know how to trade, at which point it becomes rather moot.

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  #296 (permalink)
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Quebec
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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phantomtrader View Post
I don't agree with you.

...Well the smart teacher always said: "If you know everything, you won't fail." And that same philosophy applies to trading or any other serious profession. Know everything and you won't fail.

...

Is this realistic? Never heard the expression "Jack of all trades, master of none" meaning superficial in all of them. It's true that there is good information on futures.io (formerly BMT) but quite disorganised which can lead to information overload and conflicting concepts. Which brings us back to our Jack of all trades expression. It's more efficient to focus on 'one thing' instead of everything. According to you what should be this 'one thing'?

Here are some ideas: http://www.trading-naked.com/Setups.htm

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  #297 (permalink)
Banned: trolling
NYC + NY / USA
 
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phantomtrader View Post
I don't agree with you. I consider myself to be a professional trader in the same way I trained to be a professional scientist. One of the most important things you learn in the lab is that 98% of all experiments go down the drain - i.e. they don't work. The outcome either failed or it was something that you didn't anticipate. Every scientist is searching for the holy grail of whatever their research involves. They don't come out of school knowing it all. Why would trading by any different?

Personally, although I am a profitable trader, I continue researching every single day. I read boards like this. I sign up for trials of everything new - Ninja Partners is a good place to find vendors. I want to know what other people are doing and why they're doing it. Then I test their methods using my own criteria. Sometimes you find something worthwhile. If you don't like research, you shouldn't be in this business. Because whatever your trading goal is, you won't succeed unless you continually ask questions and test, test, test.

Remember when you were in school and asked the teacher before the final exam: "What should I be studying for the exam." Well the smart teacher always said: "If you know everything, you won't fail." And that same philosophy applies to trading or any other serious profession. Know everything and you won't fail.

As for the successful traders you are referring to in your post, I think it's a lot of baloney. I know a lot of traders - a couple of whom are what I consider geniuses at what they do. But one thing they all have in common - they're not afraid to ask questions, they're not afraid to learn something new, and they recognize that the market is dynamic - it changes over time and your strategies must also change with it. And I have no doubt that most of them are researching the way I do - every day, reading everything, talking to other traders, digesting new market dynamics.
It's only a secret society for those who don't have the talent or wherewithall to pursue trading as a serious career.


outstanding comment!!

to that I will add:

A) the markets are more dynamic than any other creature known to the corporate world, including the Real Estate and Retail Consumer products markets, and as such, require one to continue to retest, reprove, reacquaint, and readjust their approach

B) those who can't clear away the fantasy from the reality are the ones that keep losing. Just let that expression just marinate on you, for a while.

...the fantasy of working just a few hours a day or week
...the fantasy of easy money
...the fantasy of once successful, always successful
or any other flavor of the month

C) there are successful traders that are just like they were, when they weren't successful, or in this business (of trading), and either do share and talk, or don't share and talk. There's nothing true about that notion that those successful don't share. Big Mike was one of the wisest persons in this informal industry, in starting, maintaining and encouraging this forum. There were others preceding it, and they're still around, just not as well used and appreciated as before this one.

Let's face it, the wealth of information that has been shared, whether from one or many persons, whether from domestic US or international, has made this website one of the most valuable tools you will ever find. Expecting some talented, or successful trader to endow you with some magical ability is just like point B (scroll up).

Be the trade! Chant that as a mantra, see the trade, make the trade, be the trade! Now that's success.

Good health to you!

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  #298 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
Victoria, TX
 
Futures Experience: Master
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DionysusToast View Post
Whilst I agree with you on the "Trading is hard" part. I do not agree on "everything you need is on this forum", or any other forum to be honest.

It's not because there's no useful stuff on it, it's just that for every decent item on the forums, there's a few hundred items of complete nonsense.

I don't see how someone is realistically expected to see the good stuff from the bad until they already know how to trade, at which point it becomes rather moot.

It's been said that trading is the hardest "easy money" you'll ever make. Many of the reasons why have been discussed in this thread and I'm delighted to see some of you emerging from the fog.

I have a friend who's a stock trader. From '95 to '99 he made over $800,000. Never had a losing month. From 2000 to 2010 he lost about $600,000. He made about $50,000 in 2011 and so far this year he's down about $150,000. Is he a trader? By most standards, yes...just not by mine. He spends countless hours researching his trades, but not researching how to stop the financial hemorrhage. He keeps doing exactly what he did in the '90's expecting the same results.

Successful trading isn't about making a lot of money if you end up giving it all back like a Vegas bonehead at a slot machine. It's not just about meeting your goals. Winning is about ongoing "selective" knowledge yet most traders fill their heads with mountains of mush that actually create a huge barrier to the success they seek. Successful trading is about adaptability. Nothing works forever and many successful strategies have a short lifespan before needing corrective surgery (tweaking).

Traders who can't get traction in the market mud can't fix what's wrong because they don't know what's wrong. It's like a stranded motorist who looks under his hood to try to fix his flat tire. They look for the "love" in all the wrong places. To know where to look, you have to know how to trade, of course. That means an investment in time, effort and money...years in the school of hard knocks in order to gain that essential element called experience. Mentors can really help but most traders choose to go it alone.

The road is rough and the lessons are mean. Most traders succumb to the stress and frustration...or they just run out of money and give up. But, to win at this game you have to work smart and stay nimble. To do that, traders must never stop learning what matters and able to adapt to the market's ever changing dynamics. There's no trading system in the world that will do it for you.

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  #299 (permalink)
Elite Member
Reno, Nevada
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ZN, ZB, FDAX
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 158 since May 2011
Thanks: 13 given, 226 received


trendisyourfriend View Post
Is this realistic? Never heard the expression "Jack of all trades, master of none" meaning superficial in all of them. It's true that there is good information on futures.io (formerly BMT) but quite disorganised which can lead to information overload and conflicting concepts. Which brings us back to our Jack of all trades expression. It's more efficient to focus on 'one thing' instead of everything. According to you what should be this 'one thing'?

Here are some ideas: Trade Setups

Well I don't agree. I think at the very least a new trader should investigate the various markets available to trade, should understand technical analysis and how it's applied, review strategies and systems that are published on websites like this, take free trials from vendors, talk to other traders and, in general, get a good feel for what the market and trading is all about. Focusing on one aspect of trading ignores the bigger picture.

For instance, it's not unusual for new traders to think that technical analysis i.e. indicators alone will enable them to trade successfully. They may lock into a moving average type of strategy only to learn the hard way that the market doesn't care about his moving average system. Why? Because the market is about price action. It's about volatility, volume, market profile, order flow, market "footprint", understanding how to use fibs. This stuff takes time, effort and research to learn.

I don't disagree that it's hard to dig up information. There's no question that getting a well rounded education in this business is tough. But it can be done. Joining a good prop firm with a good training program is one way. There are reputable vendors out there who focus on a particular methodology successfully. That's why I said free trials and possibly signing up with some of them can be advantageous.

Talk to people and read everything. As I said before, you need to be a tireless researcher in this business. And hopefully one day, you put it all together and figure out where you fit into the business.


Last edited by phantomtrader; April 7th, 2012 at 12:12 PM.
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  #300 (permalink)
Elite Member
Reno, Nevada
 
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Posts: 158 since May 2011
Thanks: 13 given, 226 received



rogerf View Post
It's been said that trading is the hardest "easy money" you'll ever make. Many of the reasons why have been discussed in this thread and I'm delighted to see some of you emerging from the fog.

I have a friend who's a stock trader. From '95 to '99 he made over $800,000. Never had a losing month. From 2000 to 2010 he lost about $600,000. He made about $50,000 in 2011 and so far this year he's down about $150,000. Is he a trader? By most standards, yes...just not by mine. He spends countless hours researching his trades, but not researching how to stop the financial hemorrhage. He keeps doing exactly what he did in the '90's expecting the same results.

Successful trading isn't about making a lot of money if you end up giving it all back like a Vegas bonehead at a slot machine. It's not just about meeting your goals. Winning is about ongoing "selective" knowledge yet most traders fill their heads with mountains of mush that actually create a huge barrier to the success they seek. Successful trading is about adaptability. Nothing works forever and many successful strategies have a short lifespan before needing corrective surgery (tweaking).

Traders who can't get traction in the market mud can't fix what's wrong because they don't know what's wrong. It's like a stranded motorist who looks under his hood to try to fix his flat tire. They look for the "love" in all the wrong places. To know where to look, you have to know how to trade, of course. That means an investment in time, effort and money...years in the school of hard knocks in order to gain that essential element called experience. Mentors can really help but most traders choose to go it alone.

The road is rough and the lessons are mean. Most traders succumb to the stress and frustration...or they just run out of money and give up. But, to win at this game you have to work smart and stay nimble. To do that, traders must never stop learning what matters and able to adapt to the market's ever changing dynamics. There's no trading system in the world that will do it for you.


Absolutely true. And I agree that a good mentor is invaluable. It's hard to work smart when you don't have examples of what smart is!

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