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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!


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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

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  #21 (permalink)
new york
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: mb trading
Trading: 6e
 
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Posts: 184 since Feb 2010


Xeno View Post
How about answering my questions then?



Yeah, and we ask teachers and dentists and shop owners to prove how profitable they are by posting their tax returns online.

Gary Smith has said they exist, so what's your problem?

Although teachers, dentists and shop owners in my opionion are not PERFORMANCE BASED ENDEVOURS FROM A COMPETITIVE STANDPOINT.
I DO CHECK MY CHILDS TUTOR TO MAKE SURE SHE IS CREDENTIALED, I RESEARCH MY DENTIST TO SEE IF HE HAS ANY MALPRACTICE SUITES PENDING AND
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT, WHENEVER I BUY A BUSINESS, I DO ASK TO LOOK AT THE BOOKS!

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  #22 (permalink)
new york
 
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Platform: ninjatrader
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Trading: 6e
 
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Xeno View Post
It's a well worn path.

Trader spends years and loads of money trying to learn how to trade other people's courses and methods. Trader fails, because the courses and methods were useless, or trader failed to adapt them and put the time in. Trader gets angry and frustrated. Trader claims online that NO ONE is a profitable day trader. Profitable day trader reads post, laughs, and gets on with his real job.

I'll tell you what. I'll do you a deal. If you answer all the questions I've put on this thread so far, I'll send you a scan of my monthly trading statement which shows a decent profit from day trading alone for the month of Dec 2010. No more, no less. Some details will be blanked out. It is *probably* fakeable.

Now, I predict you won't answer the questions, or will be unhappy with the 'proof', but ask yourself, why should I bother putting any more effort than this in? Do you think I care whether or not you believe me?

XENO,
I AM NOT trying to challenge you or anyone else on thiS forum, EVERYONE PLEASE STOP GETTING DEFENSIVE.

I do not want to force you to submit anything you are not comfortable submiting for viewing.
I DO NOT WANT A SAMPLING OF "ONE" MONTHS P/L/ STATEMENT. Hell in the last 6 years, I have had a few winning months here and there also.

ALL I AM ASKING IS: ARE YOU MAKING YOUR LIVING SOLELY ON YOUR DAYTRADING? AND IF YOU WERE ASKED, COULD YOU PROVE IT?

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  #23 (permalink)
Madison, WI
 
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Platform: Sierra Charts, ALT
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Posts: 616 since Jan 2010
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Xeno View Post
It's a well worn path.

Trader spends years and loads of money trying to learn how to trade other people's courses and methods. Trader fails, because the courses and methods were useless, or trader failed to adapt them and put the time in. Trader gets angry and frustrated. Trader claims online that NO ONE is a profitable day trader. Profitable day trader reads post, laughs, and gets on with his real job.

Well put @Xeno.

People think that the vendors are all crap (most are), but think about why they do it. The money is a sure thing vs trading where you have to work at it, adapt, and persevere. As an example, lets take a custom bar type. Say you took someone else's free code available here made some changes, and decided to sell it for $250 a pop. You sell 1000 copies, and ding-ding you grossed $250K. Thats why you have traders, that do trade and perhaps make money most of the time, that still sell stuff or education. The money either evens out a non-steady income from trading or funds losses.

The best thing you can do is use a site like this to get other opinions first, find things that work, or better yet get the nuggets that do work. I have read a lot of books and have bought things over the years. I have usually gotten something out of each item, but long ago got over the idea that I was going to buy "the system/indicator". Instead of thinking you can buy the end game, do the work.

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  #24 (permalink)
USA
 
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bobbyacim View Post
"It's a logical scenario. If you have found none, it means one of two things. Either they don't exist, or people who openly claim to be profitable generally can't back it up or can't be bothered"

FINALLY!!!! SOMEONE IS FOCUSING ON THE QUESTION I POSED INSTEAD OF MUSING PSYCHOLOGY LIKE BIG MIKE HAS BEEN DOING OR THE OTHER PERSON CONCERNED ABOUT MY LACK OF EDICATE FOR TYPING IN UPPERCASE.

Look, don't we ask for proof in any other performance based endeavour; for baseball players we demand to know their batting average; football, number of touchdowns, hockey, number of fieldgoals, etc.

This is one of the few performance based endeavors that requires nothing more than a mere mention of profitability for credibility.

Hey the famous trader Gary Smith once said in an interview that consistently profitable daytraders were so few that they were the exception to the rule.

I am sure you will agree Mike, that only a fool would base a rule only on an exception!

I dont' believe asking for proof should be the question. IMHO, if someone wants to share with you because you are eager to learn and work your tail off, it's because they want to help you succeed. Demanding that someone show you proof that the work THEY put in was successful isn't the best route to go in my opinion.

With respect to time/money/buying systems/etc., Mike's advice is spot on. You need to look within. Start with the idea of 'market structure'. The markets are ever chaning. I dont' believe you will find a long term consistent system from something you can buy online for $199 or a 10 page ebook. However, there may be a piece or two of info containted in what you buy that is applicable an overall understanding of the markekts. The markets are always biased, the players who move the markets have ever changing needs, and they engineer moves when they need to in order to create an advantage for themselves. I don't believe there is one 'indicator' or S/R indicator that would allow you to define the market in it's different stages. That's why a lot of systems fail when the market regime changes. Coupling great MM with the ability to define context in the market is the backbone of any great methodology. You can't have one without the other. You can be profitable in the Market winning 90% of the time with a W/L of .5 (pretty risky) or winning 45% of the time with a W/L of 3:1. These would be 2 very different strategies with 2 very different money management structures - yet both 'profitable'. From there, it's a matter of what is best for you...

Just my humble $.02.

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  #25 (permalink)
USA
 
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aslan View Post
Well put @Xeno.

People think that the vendors are all crap (most are), but think about why they do it. The money is a sure thing vs trading where you have to work at it, adapt, and persevere. As an example, lets take a custom bar type. Say you took someone else's free code available here made some changes, and decided to sell it for $250 a pop. You sell 1000 copies, and ding-ding you grossed $250K. Thats why you have traders, that do trade and perhaps make money most of the time, that still sell stuff or education. The money either evens out a non-steady income from trading or funds losses.

The best thing you can do is use a site like this to get other opinions first, find things that work, or better yet get the nuggets that do work. I have read a lot of books and have bought things over the years. I have usually gotten something out of each item, but long ago got over the idea that I was going to buy "the system/indicator". Instead of thinking you can buy the end game, do the work.


+1.

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  #26 (permalink)
new york
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: mb trading
Trading: 6e
 
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Posts: 184 since Feb 2010


DavidHP View Post
Trading is not for you, this is obvious.
This thread has shown you that it is about YOUR profit and loss NOT mine.
The problem is YOU are not profitable and want to blame someone.

But trading and life are not fair.
Don't bother looking at the books they have been cooked.
Records can be faked.
Credentials can be forged.
Law suits can be expunged.
Pencils have erasers for a reason.

To be a trader you must realize it is ALL about YOU!
No one else matters.

My suggestion is to bring up a Dos C:\ Prompt on your computer.
Type this FORMAT C: \U

Once the process is complete,
Go...
Be Happy...
Do something else...

DAVIDHP,
Very witty, and entertaining response.
I AM NOT GOING TO BELABOR THE REASON I STARTED THIS THREAD,
ALL I AM GOING TO SAY IS THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR THE ADVICE ON
TYPING EDICATE,
PERSONALITY PROFILING
ASSESSMENT OF MY TRADING ABILITIES OR LACK OF.

HOWEVER THE ORIGINAL QUESTION STILL STANDS!

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  #27 (permalink)
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja
Broker: Mirus/Zen
Trading: Futures - bonds, currencies, index
 
Posts: 288 since Oct 2010
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bobbyacim View Post
Although teachers, dentists and shop owners in my opionion are not PERFORMANCE BASED ENDEVOURS FROM A COMPETITIVE STANDPOINT.
I DO CHECK MY CHILDS TUTOR TO MAKE SURE SHE IS CREDENTIALED, I RESEARCH MY DENTIST TO SEE IF HE HAS ANY MALPRACTICE SUITES PENDING AND
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT, WHENEVER I BUY A BUSINESS, I DO ASK TO LOOK AT THE BOOKS!

Yes, but you're not employing the day traders you're asking for proof from, nor are they supplying you with a service. As for the ones you are buying a service from - well, it took you far too long IMO to learn that lesson.

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  #28 (permalink)
new york
 
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Broker: mb trading
Trading: 6e
 
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Posts: 184 since Feb 2010


thatguy View Post
Maybe because the real profitable ones don't care if you think they are profitable, nor care to impress you or feel that they owe you anything to prove that they are? Just because you type in bold capital letters, doesn't mean people will fall over their feet to prove to you that they are profitable.

Let's say some does. Then what? How is this going to help you? Are you going to be profitable all of a sudden too?

Just because you spent time and money on something, doesn't mean you will be successful. You also need to apply yourself in the correct way. I see numerous overweight people at the gym I go to, who spent 90% of their time talking to their friends, taking phone calls while half-assing it on the treadmill or just sit around taking a "rest". I can just imagine them telling their friends that they cannot understand why they don't lose weight since they go to the gym all the time.

Unless you take responsibility and apply yourself, you will always be that person in the gym wasting your time and money getting nowhere.

ONCE AGAIN MY POINT IS BEING SIDELINED! I don't want anyone to impress me with proof that consistant profitability is do-able. I want them to impress upon me that this is not the exception to the rule.

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  #29 (permalink)
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja
Broker: Mirus/Zen
Trading: Futures - bonds, currencies, index
 
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Thanks: 70 given, 268 received


bobbyacim View Post
XENO,
I AM NOT trying to challenge you or anyone else on thiS forum, EVERYONE PLEASE STOP GETTING DEFENSIVE.


Quoting 
Perhaps because no one on this forum can honestly say they are CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE AND BACK IT UP WITH PROOF EITHER???

Certainly sounds like a challenge to me.

No one is being defensive. It's just that people have heard all this before.

What you are saying is that because you have failed at day trading for six years despite all the money you've spent that day trading for a living is practically impossible. You want everyone to agree with you to make you feel better. I know you have a problem with this sort of psycho-analysis, and the irony is that that is the same problem you have with trading. An inability to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

Hey, I know it's not easy. That's the reason why I trade 100% automated.

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  #30 (permalink)
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja
Broker: Mirus/Zen
Trading: Futures - bonds, currencies, index
 
Posts: 288 since Oct 2010
Thanks: 70 given, 268 received



bobbyacim View Post
ONCE AGAIN MY POINT IS BEING SIDELINED! I don't want anyone to impress me with proof that consistant profitability is do-able. I want them to impress upon me that this is not the exception to the rule.

Err, I don't think anyone disagrees that a much smaller percentage make a living from day trading than don't. What percentage makes it an exception to a rule is up for debate, but all over trading forums you'll see plenty of comment that only a small percentage of day traders make a living from it.

So what?

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