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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!


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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

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  #131 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Rithmic
Trading: GC
 
plethora's Avatar
 
Posts: 629 since Dec 2010
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I haven't read this entire thread from the beginning so pardon me if what I say is out of context.

Step back for a moment and imagine that trading is a business that does not involve money, like medicine, for instance. Do the injured demand to see doctors' P&Ls as evidence that they are competent surgeons? Or are mechanics asked to show their P&L when a customer needs a new radiator? Do you go to a shrink and ask to see his bank account before determining if he can help you? Trading is a profession like any other. Some folks are going to be better at it than others for so many different reasons. But because the commodity happens to be the exchange of money no one should be expected to show their P&L to anyone. But you can still ask. I asked a prospective trading room operator today if I could see her P&L for a couple of days and was eloquently declined.

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  #132 (permalink)
Victoria, Australia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT, MT4
Broker: NT
Trading: Dax
 
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Hi
No we dont ask a surgeon about his pnl, or a mechanic..but we would do well to find out if they are competent at their game if we are going to entrust our bodies or cars or whatever to anyone. The competency to be measured with a surgeon is probably survival rates of patients or some measure of successful recovery without relapse or complication. For a mechanic it is reliability of the repaired car and timely completion of the job. But for a trader it is ultimately the pnl - any other measure is probably just fluff.... Is it really possible to be a 'successful trader' and not make some money over time? So maybe not the most robust of analogies?

All in good fun..

L

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  #133 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Rithmic
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plethora's Avatar
 
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Linds View Post
Hi
No we dont ask a surgeon about his pnl, or a mechanic..but we would do well to find out if they are competent at their game if we are going to entrust our bodies or cars or whatever to anyone. The competency to be measured with a surgeon is probably survival rates of patients or some measure of successful recovery without relapse or complication. For a mechanic it is reliability of the repaired car and timely completion of the job. But for a trader it is ultimately the pnl - any other measure is probably just fluff.... Is it really possible to be a 'successful trader' and not make some money over time? So maybe not the most robust of analogies?

All in good fun..

L

It's a dilemma, Linds. As the saying goes, "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." But that doesn't stop us from obtaining a formal education from folks who can be considered losers in their professions. And it doesn't prevent someone who obtains an education from a "loser" to do something positive for him or herself with that training or someone who doesn't obtain an education to something big with his life. All the answers under the sun are inside.

This is fun, isn't it!

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  #134 (permalink)
Victoria, Australia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT, MT4
Broker: NT
Trading: Dax
 
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Posts: 398 since Jul 2010
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trading and learning generally is a hugely personal/subjective thing isnt it so what you say is true - I could learn to be a master trader by collecting various knowledge and skill from a collection of unprofitable trading coaches - it is possible. However knowledge from 'those that know' carries more weight to me and I attempt to get my core knowlegde from those sources if I can. If I am successful with this quality filter on what I expose myself to then my hypothesis is that my learning will be quicker with fewer unnecessary detours. Just a personal theory of mine....:-)

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  #135 (permalink)
Saint Louis, Mo., USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
Broker: Amp/CQG, Velocity/TT, Kinetick, TS
Trading: Anything That Moves..
 
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Posts: 180 since Aug 2010
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I found this link to be very interesting reading:

Free Proprietary Trading Training

Be careful not to click on any of the adds, just scroll down to the article and follow the links for steps 1 thru 9.

It's no means to an end all.. But sure wish I would have started off on a path like this, rather than the clueless one I did.


Edge

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  #136 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
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plethora's Avatar
 
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Linds View Post
trading and learning generally is a hugely personal/subjective thing isnt it so what you say is true - I could learn to be a master trader by collecting various knowledge and skill from a collection of unprofitable trading coaches - it is possible. However knowledge from 'those that know' carries more weight to me and I attempt to get my core knowlegde from those sources if I can. If I am successful with this quality filter on what I expose myself to then my hypothesis is that my learning will be quicker with fewer unnecessary detours. Just a personal theory of mine....:-)

You are right, Linds. But unfortunately the great traders do not need to teach to make a living. That doesn't mean that learning to become a great trader is impossible.

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  #137 (permalink)
CA
 
Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker: Velocity
Trading: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
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We've been through the whole track record before. I even offered to do it, with my trades and account number wiped off, and the next post said that ," I bet its Photoshoped", and then there were 30 other replies after that saying that i'm just showing off or a fake.
So whoever that wanted that proof, its obvious that its not gonna matter.

Second, I don't know, and have never met a single person that makes 200% a day day trading. I have a decent sized account, by trading standards (not by the standards that people probably have in this forum, which is considerably small). I know my account is much bigger than most in here. I bet the average account size of 95% of the people in this forum is less than 25k.

There's no way you can make a living with an account that small.
You need to have money to make money. Im not saying this to brag, and im not gonna say how big my account is, but its the truth. There's too much risk involved with an account that small. All it takes is a few mistakes, which probably will wipe out 8% of your account, then the pressure mounts on.

The very fact that people have a hard time subscribing to a data feed like DTN( which is only $80/month) just shows how under-capitalized most people in here are. I personally don't believe you can even make 50k a year with a 25k account. Thats 200% a year!!!
IMO, you need to have at least 75k+ to day trade for a living(im talking about as a source of income, not investing or otherwise), and i mean a very modest living.

To trade one ES contract without margin, you need 50k. How is it that people are trading 3-4 cars with a 10k account( yes im aware of the $500 day trade margins)?
The whole point behind such aggressive margins are for brokers to get rich. That is a fact. People call forex bucket shops, well the futures market is a bucket shop as well with this aggressive margin requirements.
2k just to open an account with mirus? $500 to open an account with AMP ....lol
You need at least 25k to day trade stocks. And stocks in my opinion are easier to trade and less volatile. What makes you think you can do it with an account that small?

This is all my opinion of course, and personal experience. If anyone is willing to prove how then can make 50k+ a year with a 10k account, i would really like to meet that person, and let him trade my account. I will even split the profits with him.

Can you make a living day trading, absolutely. But like i said, I've never seen anyone make 200% a day.

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  #138 (permalink)
CA
 
Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker: Velocity
Trading: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
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I bet I will get slammed for my prior post i bet, saying im full of it. It really doesn't matter, and it won't affect me, because i know what i said is the truth, and the cold hard reality that people can't accept. I hope that answers your question. There's a bunch of posts about whether if its in you, or if you have the temperament for it. Yea that may be true, but the biggest factor is MONEY, and screen time. There's alot of inefficiency's in the market. Trust me its not that difficult to make money when you stop worrying about every little damn tick.

The problem with day trading is that most people want to do it because they're probably out of money, or not making enough money, which I hate to say it, puts you shit out of luck in this business. Its very rare for someone that has a large sum of money to start day trading. I would say probably less than 10% fit that bill. Those are the ones that are more likely to succeed in this game. Thats WHY you see so many people selling indicators, or selling some other load of crap, because they've realized that they just don't have the capital, or they're just full of crap.

Good luck on your new career. I'm confident that you've made the right decision.

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  #139 (permalink)
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
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Posts: 2,547 since Jun 2010
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Cognitive Dissonance example:
"
A classical example of this idea (and the origin of the expression "sour grapes") is expressed in the fable The Fox and the Grapes by Aesop (ca. 620–564 BCE). In the story, a fox sees some high-hanging grapes and wishes to eat them. When the fox is unable to think of a way to reach them, he surmises that the grapes are probably not worth eating, as they must not be ripe or that they are sour. This example follows a pattern: one desires something, finds it unattainable, and reduces one's dissonance by criticizing it. Jon Elster calls this pattern "adaptive preference formation."
"

I wonder if the fox had ever eaten grapes before, or if he had seen anyone eat grapes or he had a genetic predisposition or desire to eat the grapes in the first place.

I think different people need encouragement in different ways. To call someone 'sour grapes' is possibly correct, but the whole point of this thread in my opinion is to help this person along to get a conclusion as to what is possible or not. He was reaching out.

I believe all of us always reach out to find others who have prevailed, and choose to 'model' that success. Standing on the shoulders of giants is an important concept and key in the growth of all forms of "professionals".

All of us have compared or analyzed our own actions against those of others and it is perfectly normal in my opinion and it doesn't mean you have poor thinking. I typically only hear it though from people who always have something to sell to others that it of course is an 'issue' in their thinking and the fact that they can't do it is just a 'mental' leap away. I agree, everything is just a mental leap away including your coach or mentor or whatever.

I think Bobby is smart to move on because he already exuded that feeling when he typed the original post. However, I still bring up the point that if you never saw anyone slam dunk a basketball from the free throw line, and you have dozens upon dozens of people that claim to do it but they don't want to show you because it is YOUR problem, then that logic makes me giggle inside.

Money is money. We don't take it with us, it doesn't make our d*ck's any bigger or make us better human beings. It simply is an idea or means to exchange. Of course we all want more, all for different reasons, but at the end of the day, take the money making part out of the intra-day trading and I think few people would do it for no money or no POSSIBILITY of making any money.

Anyone here trade for no money? If so, and if you are profitable, please send me where to deposit the funds and I will keep all the profits. Well, I guess I could give you a few duckets left over because I am a nice guy and wouldn't want you to starve.


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  #140 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Rithmic
Trading: GC
 
plethora's Avatar
 
Posts: 629 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 1,174 given, 425 received



bluemele View Post
Cognitive Dissonance example:
"
A classical example of this idea (and the origin of the expression "sour grapes") is expressed in the fable The Fox and the Grapes by Aesop (ca. 620564 BCE). In the story, a fox sees some high-hanging grapes and wishes to eat them. When the fox is unable to think of a way to reach them, he surmises that the grapes are probably not worth eating, as they must not be ripe or that they are sour. This example follows a pattern: one desires something, finds it unattainable, and reduces one's dissonance by criticizing it. Jon Elster calls this pattern "adaptive preference formation."
"

I wonder if the fox had ever eaten grapes before, or if he had seen anyone eat grapes or he had a genetic predisposition or desire to eat the grapes in the first place.

I think different people need encouragement in different ways. To call someone 'sour grapes' is possibly correct, but the whole point of this thread in my opinion is to help this person along to get a conclusion as to what is possible or not. He was reaching out.

I believe all of us always reach out to find others who have prevailed, and choose to 'model' that success. Standing on the heads of giants is an important concept and key in the growth of all forms of "professionals".

All of us have compared or analyzed our own actions against those of others and it is perfectly normal in my opinion and it doesn't mean you have poor thinking. I typically only hear it though from people who always have something to sell to others that it of course is an 'issue' in their thinking and the fact that they can't do it is just a 'mental' leap away. I agree, everything is just a mental leap away including your coach or mentor or whatever.

I think Bobby is smart to move on because he already exuded that feeling when he typed the original post. However, I still bring up the point that if you never saw anyone slam dunk a basketball from the free throw line, and you have dozens upon dozens of people that claim to do it but they don't want to show you because it is YOUR problem, then that logic makes me giggle inside.

Money is money. We don't take it with us, it doesn't make our d*ck's any bigger or make us better human beings. It simply is an idea or means to exchange. Of course we all want more, all for different reasons, but at the end of the day, take the money making part out of the intra-day trading and I think few people would do it for no money or no POSSIBILITY of making any money.

Anyone here trade for no money? If so, and if you are profitable, please send me where to deposit the funds and I will keep all the profits. Well, I guess I could give you a few duckets left over because I am a nice guy and wouldn't want you to starve.


Very nice post. I like you.

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