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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!
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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

  #121 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Pretty defensive and unecessary response - adds to my intrigue. I dont doubt there are some long term profitable traders or that long term profitbility is possible for me...Sure I would have liked my own trajectory to be faster than it has been but that isnt the point of my comment. Disagree that it is a 'destructive behaviour' - I understand that you have a long history in trading including in the 'pit'? Did you never wonder about the profitability of your peers? Did you never seek out any evidence anecdotal or otherwise about the kind of profitbaility that successful others had achieved?

regards

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  #122 (permalink)
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I think some people on this thread need to make a distinction between traders trying to sell you some training and profitable traders who have no desire to either train you or publish their private financial records just so that a few strangers can be encouraged to keep looking to others for their own trading success.

It's really quite simple - the clever ones have already worked out how useful the thousands they spent on training really is. You answered your own questions. If you want a thread about how those sellers never proved anything then feel free but don't include the other type of traders I mentioned.

And the bottom line is this. It is possible to be a consistently profitable private retail trader. But no one is likely to prove it to you. If you believe it, then carry on, you don't need proof. If you don't, then really, why don't you give up now? Your attitude is all wrong. It's all about yourself, not others. Sorry to sound so harsh, but honestly, you'd be happier in the long run doing something else and giving up on trading if your whole thing is to keep harping on about people proving it to you.

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  #123 (permalink)
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Linds View Post
- I understand that you have a long history in trading including in the 'pit'? Did you never wonder about the profitability of your peers? Did you never seek out any evidence anecdotal or otherwise about the kind of profitbaility that successful others had achieved?

regards

I never worked in the pit, but I imagine the evidence of rough profitability of many people around you was pretty prevalent without much looking.

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  #124 (permalink)
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Linds View Post
Did you never seek out any evidence anecdotal or otherwise about the kind of profitbaility that successful others had achieved?

I could care less what the guy next to me was making - I only cared about what I was making and how I was trading. It was considered presumptuous to ask another trader what he made, whether it was for the day, the week, the month, or the year. If you did he would just answer, "I had a good day", or "At least I got my health", but actual amounts were rarely discussed. It's nobody's business.

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  #125 (permalink)
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Xeno View Post
I never worked in the pit, but I imagine the evidence of rough profitability of many people around you was pretty prevalent without much looking.

Of course...good news travels fast, bad news travels even faster. Very much a locker room mentality, but nevertheless P&Ls were a relatively, closely guarded secret. It was usually traders' clerks or clearing firm employees that leaked the info, not the traders themselves.

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  #126 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
Of course...good news travels fast, bad news travels even faster. Very much a locker room mentality, but nevertheless P&Ls were a relatively, closely guarded secret. It was usually traders' clerks or clearing firm employees that leaked the info, not the traders themselves.

Thanks
It seems to me then that you developed as a trader in an environment where you felt, saw and heard ( ie not just on a screen) about the real stories of how other traders were going? You probably had some rumour quality information and other info that you trusted the sources of that was much better than rumour. Of course the most important thing is how you were trading BUT I would argue that that kind of contextual information assisted with you with your goal setting and helped with sustaining motivation. It also provided you with pretty clear ( good enough for you) evidence that some traders were very successful - yes?

The modern day retail trader gets the vast majority of info on line via 'anonymous' others. There is a difference in the level of information here. It could be argued that the modern retail trader must sustain a higher level of faith because of the fact that a lot of online info cant be verified and I dont think anyone would dispute that there are enough dodgy claims made out there.

So I think these 'requests' for 'proof' are coming from that place in the retail traders psyche that would like to not rely quite so much on faith especially while in the early stages of development.

You and others argue it is a fruitless and even destructive quest to see the proof of another retail traders profitability - that may be the case - but I think the sentiment is easy enough to understand.

Anyway thanks for that insight Tigertrader.

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  #127 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
Myself as well as others I personally know have been dupped by the "Dream Merchants" of the trading world which includes Educators, System Vendors, Ebook Authors, Private Mentorship programs and even home spun system developers selling their wares on sites like ebay and Lulu.com- all claiming to be consistantly profitable!
My personal experience has been that none can offer any kind of PROOF OF ACTUAL PROFITABLITY when they are called out on it!! YOU JUST HAVE TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT, WHY????

Oh, yes some can offer proof of OCCASIONAL PROFITS INTERMIXED WITH LOSSES,
BUT NO ONE IN THE LAST 6 YEARS OF MY EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH CAN OFFER PROOF THAT THEY CONSISTANTLY ARE PROFITABLE AND THEREFORE LIVE SOLEY OFF OF THEIR TRADING RESULTS!

For those who still cling to the mantra that the key to profitable trading is Education, Education, Education, let me give you a sample of the trading education I have participated in over the past 6 years and at an approx. cost of over $10,000

Eminiacademy $5,000
Eminitradingstrategies $1,500
4xmadeeasy $600
Teachmetotrade $999
E=MC2 trading method $500
and a slew of hardcover, ebooks and 10 page trading instuctional downloads

I have also clocked over 5,000 hours between metatrader and ninjatrader in sim mode.

Still not consistantly profitable, but as I said earlier, I can not find anyone else who is either, at least not with ACTUAL PROOF!!!

+4 stars. Bingo, Jackpot and Home Run.

I'm going to read the rest of this thread and keep an open mind; however, if I smell a raccoon, I'll set the trap.

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  #128 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I've been reading your posts the last few days.

To me, it seems very clear. You are searching externally for reasons why you are unprofitable. You are now even demanding proof someone else is profitable. Someone elses earnings have nothing to do with your own.

Stop looking externally, stop buying new methods, stop searching for something that is tangible that is going to change your trading. The problem is within, you need to focus on within to solve it.

Read my signature for steps you can take to start to become profitable.

Mike

Hope springs eternal. In between, your account evaporates.

Okay, Mike, time to revoke my membership for taking a contrary or negative position.


Last edited by Tundi; March 6th, 2011 at 10:35 PM.
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  #129 (permalink)
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bobbyacim View Post
First, something I would like to say to BIG MIKE;
Mike, I respect and greatly admire what you have built here, solely for the purpose of exchanging ideas, techniques and methodologies for the betterment of others like myself who are struggling with their trading, and for a lot longer than 6 years! Extremely Commendable Sir!

HOWEVER, wheather a method that I could devise myself would suit me better or wheather looking internally for answers is the solution, etc, etc..
I remain true to the main reason for starting this thread

IN 6 YEARS OF EXHAUSTIVE SEARCHING, I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY RETAIL DAYTRADER WHO UPON CLAIMING TO BE CONSISTANTLY PROFITABLE, CAN OFFER ANY CONCRETE PROOF OF SUCH. WHY?

Please understand I am strictly speaking about daytrading. Because swing trading and longer term is different, with these longer timeframes, you are rising above the so-called noise. Although if prices are fractal, then it can be argued that the longer term charts are just a greater amount of noise.

ENJOY YOUR HOLIDAYS EVERYONE AND GOD BLESS.

+3

Daytraders are an overly optimistic crowd and grossly undercapitalized. They believe in the marketing pitch of the NY Lottery--"All it takes is a dollar and a dream." I think the odds of winning for both groups are the same. The difference is the Lottery players don't get sucked into books, webinars, schools, forums, trading rooms, systems and indicators. At the end of their lives, Lottery players probably less than traders.


Last edited by Tundi; March 6th, 2011 at 10:57 PM.
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  #130 (permalink)
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Linds View Post
It seems to me then that you developed as a trader in an environment where you felt, saw and heard ( ie not just on a screen) about the real stories of how other traders were going? You probably had some rumour quality information and other info that you trusted the sources of that was much better than rumour.

Rumors weren't necessary, I had friends that flew their own Cessna Citations and had 8 figure years. But being there, cuts both ways. I was standing next to Tom Baldwin when he dropped $10MM in 60 seconds, and witnessed 95% of the people that walked into the CBOT and CME, walk right back out, after having lost their life savings. In the final analysis, neither scenario was a realistic option for me. I was neither well capitalized enough, nor risk tolerant enough, to achieve the former status, and unwilling to accept the latter. So whatever motivated me came from within, irrespective of any outside influence.

BTW: I think Xeno couldn't have put it any better, than he did - so over and out on this topic.


Last edited by tigertrader; March 7th, 2011 at 08:57 AM.
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