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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!
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Ten-thousand in Education and still not profitable!

  #111 (permalink)
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It is interesting that no one will provide a profitable track record.

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  #112 (permalink)
Student Of The Markets
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Slipknot511 View Post
This raises another point: Trading cannot just be about making money. You MUST have a passion for trading. The markets place traders under some of the most adverse psychological stress possible. If it's only about money for you, there are easier ways to do it. Trading is without a doubt the hardest way of making easy money.
I trade because I can't do anything else. I love it. I'm addicted to it. Doing anything else for the rest of my life would be a death sentence. I love the game that much.

I appreciate Bobby's honesty and openness. Never, ever, ever give up and you will find your passion. And it has nothing to do with money. Do what you love and you will never work another day in your life. If you find your passion & it also pays the mortgage and groceries, then you'll be the luckiest man on earth.


I couldn't have said it any better!

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  #113 (permalink)
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Paul Lemke View Post
It is interesting that no one will provide a profitable track record.

Okay, I'll bite - why is it interesting?

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  #114 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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I still haven't decided which is more difficult - trading on the floor or electronic trading. In some ways it's an apple and oranges kind of comparison, where the advantages vs. disadvantages of each trading environment offset each other, and in some ways there are a lot of similarities.

If you want to talk about pressure, just think about standing in the midst of 700 other traders competing for the same dollar in a zero sum game. Also consider, that if you didn't own your membership, your seat lease may have been $10,000 mo., the cost of a clerk to check your trades another $1000.00 mo., and the minimum account size $50,000.00. That's a relatively high barrier to entry for almost anybody. And if making money wasn't difficult enough, you had to live with the very real fear of a debilitating or career ending out-trade


On the other hand, your commissions were capped at $20,000 for the year, and you were where the market was being made...there was an edge to be gained when trading on the floor, but there was also a very steep price to pay for enjoying that edge.


So don't be surprised when I tell you that the attrition rate at the futures exchanges was as high as the attrition rate allegedly is with e-trading. In fact, there was a veritable revolving door at the CBOT, and during my tenure there, I saw literally thousands of traders come-and-go. Their reasons for failing were as varied as their backgrounds; not capitalized sufficiently, unable to cope with the stress and competition, not disciplined, not committed to succeeding, etc.

Interestingly, any one fault can contribute to your failure as trader. But when it comes to what is required for success, you must possess
every attribute or you will fail. Only one needed to cause you to fail, and probably 10 that are needed for you to succeed. That's a pretty bad risk to reward ratio. For those that succeeded and endured; the reason is universal and certainly complex. It is a combination of a lot of factors, and the integration of various traits that are required for success. From a probability standpoint, we have a pretty good idea what the odds are, for that success.


Last edited by tigertrader; March 6th, 2011 at 07:10 PM.
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  #115 (permalink)
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Deucalion View Post
Okay, I'll bite - why is it interesting?

Yes, I agree, it is interesting. Not saying it isn't done, but if you asked 6,000 business owners if they would publish their Quickbooks P&L for the month on a forum then that could be an issue as well. I personally would if asked and it could be as anonymous as trading. For some reason, traders don't feel the comfort, or truly there are no profitable traders to do so? Or, the profitable traders just don't want to?

We had a few threads on this and I think some traders seeing a profitable trader in action is a nice thing. But the reality is that few will truly hit the 2,000% per month returns that many claim throughout the trading world.

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  #116 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
Yes, I agree, it is interesting. Not saying it isn't done, but if you asked 6,000 business owners if they would publish their Quickbooks P&L for the month on a forum then that could be an issue as well. I personally would if asked and it could be as anonymous as trading. For some reason, traders don't feel the comfort, or truly there are no profitable traders to do so? Or, the profitable traders just don't want to?

We had a few threads on this and I think some traders seeing a profitable trader in action is a nice thing. But the reality is that few will truly hit the 2,000% per month returns that many claim throughout the trading world.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am not sure why there are those on this thread, that are so preoccupied with seeing other peoples' P&L. You either believe in yourself, or you don't. Trying to motivate yourself by seeing someone else's positive P&L, isn't going to be the difference between your success or failure, but believing in yourself will.

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  #117 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am not sure why there are those on this thread, that are so preoccupied with seeing other peoples' P&L. You either believe in yourself, or you don't. Seeing someone else's P&L, isn't going to be the difference between someone's success or failure, but believing in yourself will.

I will interpret it to the best of my ability from your own context. Per my context, I disagree.

I believe I will fly to mars on my own ability some day as much as I want, but I have a feeling that most people believe the odds are a bit stacked against me. Not saying that I can't fly to mars on my own, but knowing what I know now and seeing what I see in my current reality sure limits that. NOW, if I saw someone do it, it sure would re-energize my interest in accomplishing that!!!!

You have traders who claim (not saying you or anyone else on this thread) 200% returns per day 365 days per year etc. but nobody can show it. When you see the guys who 'have to' show it you see it is nothing close to the reality.

I do believe I can be a profitable trader, otherwise I would have given up by now. However, the FACT that so few will actually show proof lends itself to the imaginary world.

STATEMENTS = REALITY.

I have spent 10's of K's on self-help guru courses and lessons on expanding your beliefs and connecting with them etc...

The person on this thread just asked for a simple, please show me as I have not been able to slam dunk the basketball from the free throw line. If it can be done, I can aspire to it and if I see you do it then I will find it much more easily.

We can't all be the 4 minute mile breaker. There is some logic to that one.

When talking to traders, I suggest them to BE REAL, SHOW REALITY, the world has enough fuzzy stuff w/ whip cream on it.

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  #118 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
I will interpret it to the best of my ability from your own context. Per my context, I disagree.

I believe I will fly to mars on my own ability some day as much as I want, but I have a feeling that most people believe the odds are a bit stacked against me. Not saying that I can't fly to mars on my own, but knowing what I know now and seeing what I see in my current reality sure limits that. NOW, if I saw someone do it, it sure would re-energize my interest in accomplishing that!!!!

You have traders who claim (not saying you or anyone else on this thread) 200% returns per day 365 days per year etc. but nobody can show it. When you see the guys who 'have to' show it you see it is nothing close to the reality.

I do believe I can be a profitable trader, otherwise I would have given up by now. However, the FACT that so few will actually show proof lends itself to the imaginary world.

STATEMENTS = REALITY.

I have spent 10's of K's on self-help guru courses and lessons on expanding your beliefs and connecting with them etc...

The person on this thread just asked for a simple, please show me as I have not been able to slam dunk the basketball from the free throw line. If it can be done, I can aspire to it and if I see you do it then I will find it much more easily.

We can't all be the 4 minute mile breaker. There is some logic to that one.

When talking to traders, I suggest them to BE REAL, SHOW REALITY, the world has enough fuzzy stuff w/ whip cream on it.


I'm sorry, but I can't buy into your explanation -your analogies seem out of context on almost any level.

You are obviously an intelligent person, who is more than capable of distinguishing between fact and fantasy. If something appears to-be-too-good-to be-true, then it probably is. That's your first clue!

I do agree with you however, that if you are considering taking a course from a vendor who is making certain claims, you should have access to his track record. That make perfect sense.

Beyond that, it's ludicrous to assume that there are not any individuals in the trading universe that are profitable. What is even more ludicrous is that that you believe invalidating that statement will provide you with the hope that is needed to continue trading.

IMO, you attitude is textbook cognitive dissonance.


Last edited by tigertrader; March 6th, 2011 at 04:04 PM.
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  #119 (permalink)
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Im also kind of intrigued at the lack of forthcomingness ( is that a word?) about 'proof'. There is a lot of smoke, mirrors and dreams in trading land and it would be of some value to see a concrete example of long term retail trader profitability. It wouldnt be an earth shattering event but just kind of nice. The intriguing part for me is the lengths people go to to argue that it has no value whatsoever. But thats just me..............

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  #120 (permalink)
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Linds View Post
Im also kind of intrigued at the lack of forthcomingness ( is that a word?) about 'proof'. There is a lot of smoke, mirrors and dreams in trading land and it would be of some value to see a concrete example of long term retail trader profitability. It wouldnt be an earth shattering event but just kind of nice. The intriguing part for me is the lengths people go to to argue that it has no value whatsoever. But thats just me..............


I am sorry your experience with trading has conflicted with your expectations, but the burden of proof does not rest on the shoulders of profitable traders - it's your problem, not ours. Stop trying to justify your inability to make money by challenging whether it can be accomplished, and then putting the onus on others to disprove your doubts and criticisms. It's a destructive behavior that in no way lends itself to becoming a better trader.


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