I just sat through a 70 minute demo from EOTPRO, i now know why 95% of people lose money.
I'm furious, these guys are claiming to be selling Neural Networks and saying 'its on a server at the CME', its not a NN at all its just a large tick pile of data, and who cares if its low latency when your your trading a 3 lot.
Jesus H i'm so angry, yet all the other folks are just lapping it up, "how do we buy this piece of C**p and give away more money".
Im sorry to rant but these new traders are being suckered in.
The following 4 users say Thank You to h4cked for this post:
Back in the day, EOT was a decent place for a beginner to learn about futures and indicators without getting roped into alot of hype on buzzwords like NN. Perhaps that had an impact on Richard's decision to move on and do his own thing.
h4acked,
Are you making money with futures? If so, pray do, enlighten us. I have traded for years with little more then marginal success. I have never had a loosing week since I started trading with EOTPRO. Three contracts is enough for me with a small account, 20,000. I am a elite member of Big Mikes and here to learn and share what little I can. Please share with us some of your masters knowledge and winning techniques not just your vitriol. TY
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"never had a losing week" I think that wil raise the eyebrows of most folks.
I feel most of these new breed of 'partners' on NT seem to be very good at selling and poor at substance. I have ensured I have attended a lot of them and from my personal experience the level of the audience is low and the sales skills of the speaker seem high. There are not many market facts going on but a lot about signing up for a monthly fee.
I do something most traders don't I invest heavily in the tools I use each day, most people will not pay $3000 for Bloomberg/Reuters or CQG I think these investments are key to making solid informed choices and sustained profits. This really is an industry where good tools make a difference. I know CQG route my orders the fastest to the exchanges, I know during rapid times I will be filled first. The true trade information from this is invaluable.
I run 3 separate funds all VHF systems average position holding time 244 seconds, average volume per day 4000-4500 contracts. We look for very small low risk high sharpe ratio moves. Nothing based on technical analysis just simple weight of money changes. We trade very restricted times (during the open outcry sessions only).
I also operate a small options fund that trade trend less markets, CQG enables me to manage all of this from a central point.
I may of been overaly harsh about EOTPRO but I struggled to see how it was a neural net, and it lacked substance in the webinar maybe you could correct my error?
Adam
You have to enjoy it.
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I was with EOT for awhile,mostly before NCEP. I agree at $322 a month,its a rip off.
Even after NCEP, their indicators wouldnt even pick up a 8 pt ES trade,I was in there once as a guest.
Not sure how they are doing right now, probably polishing the chrome with Bill's DJ skills.
Cannot agree with you more!!! I had EOT for three months could not make software to work for me. But as I would say it is not tools that are bad it is trader who is using it. I just could not make it work for me.
lol...don't get me wrong it seems to work for some. I remember Gordo(a member here ) was there for awhile maybe he can opini. Most of these trading rooms are just that, and room rate generating machine. ALot of the clients come in not funded enough,bad MM, delusions of grandeurs,bad trading psychology etc etc. Might have good indicators/calls but we have to pull the trigger on our own PC and manage the trade....looks easy...but takes alot of time and effort to be proficient.
Liked Shelley's volume based on larger time frame. They used Murray math(version there of) and cycle( i think myself it was a double stoc or schaff smoothed). Glen,the originator of EOT obviously never divulged,not even the M math lines on TS forums. Cant kill the cash cow!
I was in EOTPRO for a year and lost over a thousand dollars by taking the exact same trades as the moderator. Now that I know a lot more about trading, I can see that the trades the moderator took were obviously bad trades in chop with no trend in sight. The neural network puts arrows in places that just make no sense, and a human with a few indicators can do better. Also when I was there they were changing their system every week even though it was suppose to be the best. I now am studying with Shadowtraders and I am very happy. Unlike EOTPRO - they teach you to trade, it works, and they care. When I listen to the Shadowtraders chatroom, I only get insightful information on the markets and not corny jokes delivered by the annoying smartalick voice of a wannabee comedian.
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I have been watching daily and EOT's NCEP with COP seems much better than a year ago, they are focused heavily on exits using Glen's cycle indicator. I do agree though their arrows appear in areas that make no sense, keeps short into heavy uptrend strong opening.
I came back with interest because I don't think I can not handle the emotions of discretionary trading and Bill being automated appealed to me. Over the last month with volume dropping their profitability has dropped off but they are still making money. I do think they are a great group of people, much more honest than the rest. And I miss Richard from when I was a regular member 3 years ago.
Too funny doesn't sound like much has changed. I like EOT's venture into machine readable news that's awesome but I have seen its just a tool also no HG.
I think TR has always worked for him he just never had permission to release it to clients. If I get a chance I will post some screen shots of how they took TR and made a predictive tool out of it. It look for news on top 100 oil producers aggregates that and gives a prediction which often is right, don't have hard stats, but has some big pullbacks before being right. Bill did state upfront you can't use it for futures scalping need to do options on futures or something?
To Barbara's credit her trading and tools looks much better I was just watching some of her YT vids.
Yes, she and Melanie offer some quite good education, but their charts are really a bit too cluttered with fractal lines and other stuff for me....I like it more simple and fast.
Here is a couple of screenshots with the TR feed. So when you get a sharp blue spike above/below the green/red lines is what you are looking for. If that occurs in the next 30-60 minutes after the spike it should move in the predicted direction. I don't see anyone offering a tool like this to the retail trader.
The following user says Thank You to dandxg for this post:
Yes, Im talking about Barbara's Shadowtrader and not ThinkorSwim Shadowtrader. Barbara does counter trends
on CL and scalps for 3 ticks. But Melanie teaches trend trading on Wednesdays and Thursday. Her system is quite good and a beginner can start out at 3 ticks and go as far as he wants. The Shadowtrader system teaches both trending and countertrending.
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I just tried their "open house". I couldn't believe the tone of the annoying jackaft sounding host. Reminds me of a similar wisecracking econ teacher in a community college (community colleges can have all kinds of wackos as teachers) who was like that, making cracking jokes about all of us wasting our time going to school and even taking his class. Sheez, if one isn't going to be serious about their product and treats it all like a joke, why bother?
Anyways, they said it's now $233 /month for the room. And they have some new "MRI" automated trading "indicators". And the first moderator said their rooms were going to emphasize more "training" rather than live calls currently. Don't let that big black server front web page background photo fool you. If you look closely at some of those systems in those racks, they look like over 10 year old Dell powervaults.
The following user says Thank You to Cloudy for this post:
I remember you, Dan! And I'm glad you enjoyed your time with us back then. Sorry for the late reply but I only visit forums about once every 1.5 years LOL.
I see a two-year-old post in this thread that says:
Much belated thanks, Tundi. Yeah, if you look at EOTPro today and compare that to the EOTPro of 2008, you can see that it has changed a lot. Their vision and mine for going forward really didn't match, so I bowed out. The focus seems to be much more on automated trading, and black-box algorithms now.
In a way I can understand that, because even stuff developed many years ago still works fine for discretionary trading. It's not bad tech that kills discretionary daytraders, but bad psychology. If the original tradestation-forum posts from EOTPro are still around, you can see it started out with little more than a MA and a cycle-optimized stochastic. That's more-or-less still how I trade today... just a couple well-chosen indicators and common sense. And I learned a lot of what I do today from Glen and Bill.
So, I get why making black-box products for automated traders is a good way to expand the business, but I'm just not into that. I would have much rather converted into a discretionary hedge fund and dropped the indicator clients altogether.
They still have some of the old magic: I'm in their open-house room today, and Glen is talking, and I still love it. He has so much good trading wisdom to share! He is talking about common-sense trading ideas like when it's good to look for pullbacks, and when it would be a mistake to wait. There's real value there to the discretionary trader. He's talking about cycles and using farming as a metaphor for trading, and I'm all smiles. That's why I wanted to be with them in the first place.
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