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is 40-50 ticks per day doable


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is 40-50 ticks per day doable

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  #1 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
london
 
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the pass requirements to be taken on as a full time prop trader with this firm after 3months of training is 40-50 ticks 4 days out of 5 -- does this sound reasonable - yes they charge a fee

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  #3 (permalink)
 wavey 
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what products would you be trading then? I would run if I heard those static, non personal risk / reward unaware goals being layed out.

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  #4 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
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you choose the instrument you like

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  #5 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

Please tell me why somebody who can make 40 ticks a day would not work for himself and have the life everybody dreams off ?

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  #6 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
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THey tie you into a 4yr contract if successful, they start you on 2 contracts
and expect you to make 300-500 per day - so actually that is 15 -25 pips per
day - so figures do not add up; still not sure if this reasonble expectation?

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  #7 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

My daily target/goal is 20ticks a day.

I'm very happy with that result. I have no clue why I should work for somebody else if I'm reaching my daily target on my own. Everything you need is on Bigmike, you just need dedication, effort, and beating the other 95%.

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  #8 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
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unfortunately reading through and practicing the multitudes of different strategies
from fibonacci to order flow to pivot to elliot waves......presented on any forum would take years
to sift through to find the best method - what is needed is a structured approach to learning
which is why people opt for courses - unfortunately many of these are no good
which is why self taught traders seem to be taking 2-5 years to succeed though some take
a year. - it took me about 12-18 months to be a competent programmer working within
the industry, taking 3,4,5 years would have got me the sack!!

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  #9 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Annie, no disrespect but you seem to be looking for a shortcut.

There are no shortcuts. But, you can at least avoid lengthening your journey if you avoid looking for the holy grail.

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  #10 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
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hi mike,

not looking for a shortcut journey but trying to avoid a zig zag journey full of pot holes!!!
ie a structured route

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  #11 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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anniebee321 View Post
unfortunately reading through and practicing the multitudes of different strategies
from fibonacci to order flow to pivot to elliot waves......presented on any forum would take years
to sift through to find the best method - what is needed is a structured approach to learning
which is why people opt for courses - unfortunately many of these are no good
which is why self taught traders seem to be taking 2-5 years to succeed though some take
a year. - it took me about 12-18 months to be a competent programmer working within
the industry, taking 3,4,5 years would have got me the sack!!

I understand where you are coming from. I believe that a course can shortcut your learning curve, however, I find that most people have no idea on what kind of trading they are compatible with until they have paid for a course or two.

The key is understanding what type of trading you enjoy. Regardless of profits, some love scalping for 1-2 ticks! Some 5-7 ticks, some 30 ticks, others 500 pips! It is a matter of personality and preference.

I don't think you will know that until you get your hands dirty and trade them all and decide if this is for you, or you have a deep understanding of your personality and can identify quickly if something suits you or not just by doing a quick evaluation.

I do believe there are 'shortcuts', but not the kind most of us dream about. haha...

I have come to realize that the easiest way to be a better trader is to quit the indi's and focus on a technique that enables you to communicate with the market. You will find many many providers out there with new indi's (supposedly new) to bedazzle you and lure you onto the hook!

If I were to start over (3 years since pretty much full time learning and trading) then I would start with just price action and learn the basics and drill them over and over and over and fall in love with the market in a way that you would fall in love with a song if you heard it a million times on the radio.

The challenge is the world we live in teaches us instant gratification can be obtained. The lucky few achieve this, so we believe this will happen to us.

Good luck on your journey and 30-50 ticks is easy if you are taking larger stops and hence more risk if market conditions change etc., which someone with less experience would not see or understand because they haven't learned the beat of the music and hence the change...

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  #12 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
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anniebee321 View Post
hi mike,

not looking for a shortcut journey but trying to avoid a zig zag journey full of pot holes!!!
ie a structured route


Annie, i understand that need you have and i don't think you can learn how to trade by visiting a forum. Information on most forums is badly organised and in most cases it shoots in all directions trying to please everybody. What you can get or do on a forum is forming new contacts, getting some new ideas, asking for help when you have a problem with your platform to see if anybody else has found a solution etc. That's pretty basic stuff. But learning how to trade on a forum is completly another ball game. If i were to start again today i would start by trying to get instructions on Market Profile and build from that point onward. Getting the right instruction is more tough than learning how to trade. One pitfall i'd try to avoid, finding a system on a public board. Too many people are still in search of the miraculous and have preferences or bias that might influence you to look at dead ends. Second pitfall, finding a guru on a web site or anywhere else. Many traders have big egos and they think their vision or perception is the right stuff. Third pitfall, reading books. No book will teach you how to trade. Trading is akin to learning to play a musical instrument. You need to internalise certain aspects and no book can help you here. Although there are no shorcuts there are dead end pathways that can make you miss the boat or train completly. The best way to learn how to trade is from someone who already is doing it for a living. Oral transmission is the way to go.

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  #13 (permalink)
 cw30000 
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There is no shortcut. Even when you are given the most profitable method, you will still ended up losing money. The reason is psychology.

Psychology affect each of us differently. You just need the time and experience to understand you own.

Imho, psychology is most important aspect in this business. Unfortunately, we only get to this step after losing ton of money and most people give up before get to this step.

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  #14 (permalink)
 Bids 
United Kingdom
 
 
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15- 20 ticks a day is pretty standard for what they expect at prop firms. When I read the original post of 40-50 ticks a day I was in two minds of either telling you to run a mile

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  #15 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
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How long did it take you guys to get to aveage 15-20 pips a day if you do not mind sharing that
and also if the legup came from a prop firm?

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  #16 (permalink)
Bilderberger
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anniebee321 View Post
the pass requirements to be taken on as a full time prop trader with this firm after 3months of training is 40-50 ticks 4 days out of 5 -- does this sound reasonable - yes they charge a fee

Before you pay any money for training, ask the firm how much money they make from trading profits, and how much they make from charging for training. How many trainees have they taken on and of those how many have gone on to achieve that target (or indeed, profitability in general)?

Its important you know this figure, because there are lots of "prop firms" pretending to be trading firms when in fact they are just training firms.

There is a clear conflict of interest where YOU pay for training, and then THEY determine whether you are kept on, or indeed, whether you ever get to go live and trade with real money at all. Remember, it is in their financial interest to get you out the door quickly once your training is done since they keep all your training fee instead of having to let you risk some of it in the markets. Whats better for them, a certain profit from a terminated training contract, or an uncertain profit from a newbie trader. And beleive me, although you will learn a fair bit (subject to the quality of their training) in three months, you will STILL be a newbie trader.

Visit this page for a good discussion of paying for prop trading training.

Then go here and train yourself for free: Free Prop Trader Training

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 wavey 
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no prop firm or institutional edu here, just learning by wanting to succeed, failing was simply not an option...that helped but was no piece of cake at times...it's been over 9 yrs now, perhaps 7 fulltime.

'two roads diverged in a wood, i took the one less travelled by and that made all the difference'

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  #18 (permalink)
 Eric j 
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anniebee321 View Post
hi mike,

not looking for a shortcut journey but trying to avoid a zig zag journey full of pot holes!!!
ie a structured route

If you did that then you wouldnt have the great advantage of having had a zigzag journey full of potholes .

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  #19 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009

I agree with some of the points, specially with the questions part.. but take it a step further.. ask to speak with the traders on the floor.. speak candidly with them and take them out for drinks to find out more details outside of the floor trading setting where they might not want to be interrupted..

as to some of the comments about learning everything on futures.io (formerly BMT)... there is a place for prop trading firms.. assuming the firm has a method that provides you with an edge, and you can in fact be successful trading that method, then why stumble left and right and pay the tuition to the markets? prop firms will have risk managers, that will aid you on the trading ....

some people have more success with face to face training... others learn by doing swinging it ... others by reading and giving it a try... plenty of flavors to suit your taste..


Bilderberger View Post
Before you pay any money for training, ask the firm how much money they make from trading profits, and how much they make from charging for training. How many trainees have they taken on and of those how many have gone on to achieve that target (or indeed, profitability in general)?

Its important you know this figure, because there are lots of "prop firms" pretending to be trading firms when in fact they are just training firms.

There is a clear conflict of interest where YOU pay for training, and then THEY determine whether you are kept on, or indeed, whether you ever get to go live and trade with real money at all. Remember, it is in their financial interest to get you out the door quickly once your training is done since they keep all your training fee instead of having to let you risk some of it in the markets. Whats better for them, a certain profit from a terminated training contract, or an uncertain profit from a newbie trader. And beleive me, although you will learn a fair bit (subject to the quality of their training) in three months, you will STILL be a newbie trader.

Visit this page for a good discussion of paying for prop trading training.

Then go here and train yourself for free: Free Prop Trader Training


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  #20 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009


Bilderberger View Post

Visit this page for a good discussion of paying for prop trading training.

Then go here and train yourself for free: Free Prop Trader Training

I wanted to say thank you for the link, I have been looking for a structure approach to trading futures (regardless of which market) and from reviewing the "Free Prop Trader Training" link, it looks like what I have been looking for quite a while, so thank you very much.

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  #21 (permalink)
 Forthinords 
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I'm really skeptical of anyone who says they can get consistent ticks, even 1-4 ticks /day. If *anyone* could get any consistent ticks, using ES you could just raise your contract size to where you'd be a millionaire in a year or two. If you have even 20 consistent ticks, you would be a quiet millionaire trading from exotic beach via satellite.

Sorry for raining on your guys' parade. I could be wrong, though.. and now wouldn't that be sweet.

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  #22 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
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2 things you should not concern yourself with, when you are first learning how to trade: 1) how much money you are making, and 2) how long it's going to take until you are making money.

Your singular focus should be learning how to trade correctly. If you rush the learning process, and pick up bad habits in the process, you will only have to un-learn them in the future. Making money will take care of itself, when you you trade well.


When I first left the floor, I traded prop for a year at Schoenfeld, and they did not have any minimum P&L threshold requirements for any of their traders. Legitimate prop houses are more concerned with how a trader controls his risk, than how much money he is making. This is a sentiment that should also be your overriding concern.



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  #23 (permalink)
 Mickey Caine 
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Did not just want to say thanks for that post. Excellent.... so true

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  #24 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
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I never understood why anyone would join a prop firm for futures unless they didn't have to put up any capital to trade. Paying for prop firm education doesn't make sense to me either, since the firm benefits from teaching the trader to make money. Education should be a cost of doing business for the prop shop in a profit sharing arrangement.

Finally, a trader can get the same margin on futures as a prop shop without giving away a cut of profits. Equities prop shops, on the other hand, offer margin a trader otherwise couldn't get.

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 Snoop 
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A good prop firm doesn't require you to put up any capital. That's the attraction for most.
If you don't have alot of capital, and you can get into a shop that isn't going to nickel and dime you, it's a decent path.

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  #26 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
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Snoop View Post
A good prop firm doesn't require you to put up any capital. That's the attraction for most.
If you don't have alot of capital, and you can get into a shop that isn't going to nickel and dime you, it's a decent path.

And a good prop firm isn't going to take any Tom, Dick, or Harry. They are extremely selective.

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  #27 (permalink)
mRoss21
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Snoop View Post
A good prop firm doesn't require you to put up any capital. That's the attraction for most.
If you don't have alot of capital, and you can get into a shop that isn't going to nickel and dime you, it's a decent path.


EVERY prop firm will require you to deposit funds upfront to cover potential loses... unless you are a proven trader with an excellent track record. And if that's the case they'll take a hefty percentage of your profits.

.

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 bluemele 
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tigertrader View Post
2 things you should not concern yourself with, when you are first learning how to trade: 1) how much money you are making, and 2) how long it's going to take until you are making money.

Your singular focus should be learning how to trade correctly. If you rush the learning process, and pick up bad habits in the process, you will only have to un-learn them in the future. Making money will take care of itself, when you you trade well.


When I first left the floor, I traded prop for a year at Schoenfeld, and they did not have any minimum P&L threshold requirements for any of their traders. Legitimate prop houses are more concerned with how a trader controls his risk, than how much money he is making. This is a sentiment that should also be your overriding concern.



Wow, spoken like a true trader.

I couldn't agree more. I traded somewhat successfully under fundamentals, then got frustrated due to a bad patch and jumped to the 'dark side' of TECHNICAL trading. It was a steep learning curve at first, and the two questions I kept asking were the two above!

The only thing that answering those questions does is deflate you to a point where you want to quit and also helps you lose money.

I remove all instances of 'money' from my charts, my dom etc. I don't speak in dollars either as it is too much pressure. I used to make 2K a day in my normal business (before recession) and now for some reason it is a big deal of making $20.00 per day trading!

The key understanding for me was the 'being right'. Our EGO's are fragile (well, most of us) and the thought of being wrong more times than right just destroys us mentally.

In my opinion, one must remove the EGO so being right isn't an issue. Once you have done that, then trading for money or training time isn't as much of an issue. You must only compare your success against your own and that will keep you somewhat motivated!

The best attitude is to go in with full disclosure to your EGO, "I am going to pay money to do this, this is going to take me a while to learn and be competent in" and then ask yourself is that OK. It is a lot like building your dream home. You will have a budget and an estimated completion date, but it will always cost more and take longer to complete then you ever imagined and so goes life.

It is amazing the psychology involved.

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 tigertrader 
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Here's the deal if you are an experienced trader, and you are considering a "partnership" with a prop firm. You will have access to the kind of buying power you never would have had when you traded independently. However, the trade-off is your payout is going to be 30-35% of your net P&L, depending on the firm and depending on if you are trading equities or futures.

So, you must be able to scale your trading to the point, where you are making substantially more money than you were making, when you were trading independently, just to earn what you were earning when you were trading independently. And you are going to have to trade from their offices; they will not allocate capital to you, and allow you to trade remote.

If you are a beginner or an inexperienced trader, it might be difficult to find a prop firm in this ( HFT dominated) environment, that will "hire" you, and teach you how to trade their money. Schoenfeld recently terminated about 1/3 of their traders, due to their inability to make money in these markets. The exception is if you have quant skills, then you will be in demand.

One caveat: If a firm requires any kind of deposit, the odds are they are not a prop house, but a commission house, that is more interested in churning your commissions or engaging in liquidity rebate trading.

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  #30 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
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what does HFT dominated mean??

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  #31 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
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anniebee321 View Post
what does HFT dominated mean??

high-frequency trading...

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  #32 (permalink)
 zikonc 
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OK, I don't know anything about this guy Performance | Day Trading using Market Profile other than I got his link from fin-alg's website....... it looks like he has some trading experience and if you were to trust the performance data posted on his site you would see that he is in positive territory but not 40-50 ticks ..... at least not per contract ..... I am busy in the kitchen so hopefully I did not make a silly mistake in excel sheet ......

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  #33 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
london
 
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that gives him an average 4-5 pips per day at best.

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  #34 (permalink)
 zikonc 
san ramon
 
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anniebee321 View Post
that gives him an average 4-5 pips per day at best.

well, if 1 contract is 4-5 ticks then 10 contracts should be 40-50 ticks .....

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 Snoop 
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ignore the title, an interesting read related to this thread

Here's the Proof Day Trading is DEAD (SPY, QQQQ, IWM, DIA) | Wall St. Cheat Sheet

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Our 12-year anniversary w/ $$,$$$ prizes (check soon)

June
     



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