Fair price for ATS - futures io
futures io



Fair price for ATS


Discussion in Trading Reviews and Vendors

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one Zoethecus with 26 posts (7 thanks)
    2. looks_two Big Mike with 6 posts (8 thanks)
    3. looks_3 cory with 4 posts (0 thanks)
    4. looks_4 sharky with 4 posts (14 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one David with 4.5 thanks per post
    2. looks_two sharky with 3.5 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 Big Mike with 1.3 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Zoethecus with 0.3 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 11,860 views
    2. thumb_up 45 thanks given
    3. group 15 followers
    1. forum 64 posts
    2. attach_file 2 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

Fair price for ATS

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

I'm in the midst of trying a vendor's ATS product. I am going to withhold his name until this little project is over.

I have optimized the results strictly using MM because I don't have access to the indicators, so this is best one could hope for trading this. (The results using the vendor's default setting were approximately $1500 less.) This is a time bar based ATS, so the results were achievable. In addition, I have observed the ATS live and the performance backtests accurately. The posted results are for one contract. Be sure to consider the cost of commission (which I didn't include) in your analysis.

What I'm looking for from the community is an answer to this: On a monthly basis, what would you be willing to pay for this ATS, if you were interested in this sort of thing. It doesn't matter if you'd never purchase an ATS--you can still give your opinion as if you were interested. After I compile your responses--and please be serious--I will post the actual price and the vendor's name.

I am doing this because I often think there is a disconnect between what a vendor thinks his product is worth and what the market will bear. Products like this are easier to evaluate because they can produce real results and profits. It's not totally nebulous or a major leap of faith by the buyer if they believe the performance can continue in a like fashion as the past.

Be advised that I have no interest, nor affiliation with this vendor or his product. In no way is this an endorsement of the vendor.

Thanks for your participation and time.

Post script: If I determine in my sole discretion there isn't enough feedback to make this meaningful to the community, I will not disclose the vendor or his subscription price.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ES51.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	133.3 KB
ID:	22115   Click image for larger version

Name:	ES51EC.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	79.2 KB
ID:	22116  
Started this thread Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
1-min Intrabar indicator
MultiCharts
Anybody uses Bookmap with Tradestation?
TradeStation
Simple "runner" code
EasyLanguage Programming
need help writing easylanguage radarscreen weekly perfor …
EasyLanguage Programming
NT8 connectivity by FXI API to unsupported brokers?
NinjaTrader
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
How much do you know about Bitcoin?
128 thanks
I finally blew up an account
52 thanks
FIO Journal Challenge - April 2021 w/Jigsaw Trading
30 thanks
Big Mike in Ecuador
27 thanks
The tiyfTradePlanFactory indicator
25 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,046 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 857 given, 7,918 received



Zoethecus View Post
I'm in the midst of trying a vendor's ATS product. I am going to withhold his name until this little project is over.

..

What I'm looking for from the community is an answer to this: On a monthly basis, what would you be willing to pay for this ATS, ..

Thanks for your participation and time.

hopefully it will be less than what it makes.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


cory View Post
hopefully it will be less than what it makes.

I'm looking for numerical responses, thank you.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
 chartman 
ottawa ontario canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja trader
Broker: ninja trader brokerage
Trading: es
 
Posts: 98 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 17 given, 22 received

they never work do not spend a dime

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
 jagui 
Italy - Roma
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja + proprietary
Broker: IB
Trading: Index futures, Forex, Stocks
 
jagui's Avatar
 
Posts: 200 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 276 given, 287 received

I would pay $399 one time fee.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
 jagui 
Italy - Roma
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja + proprietary
Broker: IB
Trading: Index futures, Forex, Stocks
 
jagui's Avatar
 
Posts: 200 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 276 given, 287 received


jagui View Post
I would pay $399 one time fee.

... better stated: I would sell it at $399 one time fee.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,587 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 5,079 given, 11,393 received

up to 300 a month I would consider as cheap. with more details I probably would be willing to pay more.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,046 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 857 given, 7,918 received


Zoethecus View Post
I'm looking for numerical responses, thank you.

ok, 1 week of kick-the-tire trial and then 10% of the profit.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009



Silvester17 View Post
up to 300 a month I would consider as cheap. with more details I probably would be willing to pay more.

Kindly elaborate if you will.

Your reply is much appreciated.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


cory View Post
ok, 1 week of kick-the-tire trial and then 10% of the profit.

Are you sure? What if that one week trial produced an outlier of $5K? Would you sign up for $500 a month?

When I get to my backtesting/optimizing computer, I will post monthly and weekly results.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
 sharky 
MIAMI,FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Private
Trading: Zn,6E,6J
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,060 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 624 given, 3,900 received

i beleive traders trade because they love to trade what fun is it to just run a program ??? thats either lazy or a lack of love for the game, i trade because i love to trade i learn code because it fun for me to do if i have free time from trading and studying so to pay for a script that traded for me would be worth paying up to 500 a month i guess if i knew that it was goning to trade better than me every day, that way i could focus on trading and not having to worry if i lost or won, but on the other hand it might give me a false sense of security and make me a sloppy trader so who really knows what a program is worth that can trade for you...sharky

KILLING THE MARKETS DAILY
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to sharky for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


chartman View Post
they never work do not spend a dime

For your convenience, I'm copying a sentence from the first post.

<<It doesn't matter if you'd never purchase an ATS--you can still give your opinion as if you were interested.>>

Just curious, chartman, have you tried them all?

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


sharky View Post
i beleive traders trade because they love to trade what fun is it to just run a program ??? thats either lazy or a lack of love for the game, i trade because i love to trade i learn code because it fun for me to do if i have free time from trading and studying so to pay for a script that traded for me would be worth paying up to 500 a month i guess if i knew that it was goning to trade better than me every day, that way i could focus on trading and not having to worry if i lost or won, but on the other hand it might give me a false sense of security and make me a sloppy trader so who really knows what a program is worth that can trade for you...sharky

Thank you, sharky.

This strategy according to the backtest data, earns about $900 a month after commissions. Are you saying you would pay $500 a month for that return?

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #15 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,587 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 5,079 given, 11,393 received


Zoethecus View Post
Kindly elaborate if you will.

Your reply is much appreciated.

just to be on the lower end I took that 1,500 less (vendor's default settings) in consideration. I included commission as well. and by trading 2 contracts, 300 is about 20 %.

this was just a rough calculation. didn't use a calculator.

of course if this system is really consistent and you can trade 5 or 10 contracts, 300 a month is really cheap.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #16 (permalink)
 sharky 
MIAMI,FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Private
Trading: Zn,6E,6J
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,060 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 624 given, 3,900 received

900 a month on one car?...sharky

KILLING THE MARKETS DAILY
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to sharky for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #17 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,094 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,556 given, 98,584 received


Zoethecus View Post
Thank you, sharky.

This strategy according to the backtest data, earns about $900 a month after commissions. Are you saying you would pay $500 a month for that return?

Why stop at $900. Why not trade 10 times the cars and make it $9,000, so on, so forth.

In real estate they have a saying "A house is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it". Same is true for this ATS, I suppose. Personally I would pay $0 for it.

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #18 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


sharky View Post
900 a month on one car?...sharky

Yes.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #19 (permalink)
 sharky 
MIAMI,FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Private
Trading: Zn,6E,6J
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,060 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 624 given, 3,900 received

1 car = 900

20 cars = 18,000

so 500 is ok with me...sharky

KILLING THE MARKETS DAILY
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to sharky for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #20 (permalink)
 sharky 
MIAMI,FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Private
Trading: Zn,6E,6J
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,060 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 624 given, 3,900 received

but........................................... as i have never seen a strat work good over a period of time and i know several programmers that have spent years working on strats including our on mike then i would have to agree with him on this one...sharky

KILLING THE MARKETS DAILY
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to sharky for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #21 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Silvester17 View Post
just to be on the lower end I took that 1,500 less (vendor's default settings) in consideration. I included commission as well. and by trading 2 contracts, 300 is about 20 %.

this was just a rough calculation. didn't use a calculator.

of course if this system is really consistent and you can trade 5 or 10 contracts, 300 a month is really cheap.

I agree until the word gets out and the edge evaporates because too many contracts are chasing it.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #22 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,587 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 5,079 given, 11,393 received


sharky View Post
but........................................... as i have never seen a strat work good over a period of time and i know several programmers that have spent years working on strats including our on mike then i would have to agree with him on this one...sharky

how long is over a period of time? if it's lets say 5 month. by your examples using 20 cars = 90,000.

of course that's just me not using a calculator again.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #23 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


sharky View Post
but........................................... as i have never seen a strat work good over a period of time and i know several programmers that have spent years working on strats including our on mike then i would have to agree with him on this one...sharky

There is no long term commitment. You can cancel at any time. Does that change your thinking?

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #24 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,587 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 5,079 given, 11,393 received


Zoethecus View Post
I agree until the word gets out and the edge evaporates because too many contracts are chasing it.

yes... just another reason not to name the vendor.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #25 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Big Mike View Post
Personally I would pay $0 for it.

Mike

Thank you for your response. I'll consider it an outlier and not part of the study.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #26 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,094 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,556 given, 98,584 received


Zoethecus View Post
That's an idea for sure. Fortunately, this trades ES so you could plow a lot without diluting the edge.

So, Mike, what would this be worth to you if you felt the results could continue in a similar fashion?

I feel that the results will not continue. My opinion is traders should not pursue automation as a means to be successful in trading. Too many are lured in by false hopes and cherry picked charts. Too many believe just because a strategy made $900 a month in the past means it will in the future. Few understand backtesting and curve fitting. Fewer still understand proper forward testing. In the end, most people I've met that pursue automation do so because they are either lazy or foolish ("I just want a strategy that can earn $1,000 a month with low risk"), or are trying to find a short cut for their own pitfalls in their own discretionary trading (ie: failure to take responsibility for their actions, wanting to place blame elsewhere).

No need for me to say more.

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #27 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,094 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,556 given, 98,584 received


Zoethecus View Post
Thank you for your response. I'll consider it an outlier and not part of the study.

LOL, OK. Interesting testing methodology to not consider results you don't like, I'm not sure why else you would throw my result out

Last, I believe you failed to mention some important considerations on determining a price. How long as this vendor been in business? How many prior strategies has he produced that have a proven track record? What is his reputation like? These should weigh heavily in anyones decision in determining a fair value if they decide they are willing to pay more than $0 for it.

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #28 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Silvester17 View Post
yes... just another reason not to name the vendor.

I have no allegiance to the vendor. If I get a decent response from this large community-- a good random sample--I'll disclose the information.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #29 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Big Mike View Post
LOL, OK. Interesting testing methodology to not consider results you don't like, I'm not sure why else you would throw my result out

Mike

I believe your response is based on a bias you have from past experiences with your own failed ATS. If you can put that behind you or explain why this is worth $0, then I'll revist.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #30 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Big Mike View Post
LOL, OK. Interesting testing methodology to not consider results you don't like, I'm not sure why else you would throw my result out

Last, I believe you failed to mention some important considerations on determining a price. How long as this vendor been in business? How many prior strategies has he produced that have a proven track record? What is his reputation like? These should weigh heavily in anyones decision in determining a fair value if they decide they are willing to pay more than $0 for it.

Mike

The posted results speak for themselves. The decision must be made from this, nothing more. Again, thank you for the response.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #31 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,046 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 857 given, 7,918 received

actually the vendor should pay me $100 each time I live test his ATS as he is smart enough not to risk his own capital.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #32 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


cory View Post
actually the vendor should pay me $100 each time I live test his ATS as he is smart enough not to risk his own capital.

How do you know he isn't risking his own capital? Cory, you are off topic. You are more than welcome to post here on topic. Thanks for your cooperation.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #33 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,094 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,556 given, 98,584 received


Zoethecus View Post
The posted results speak for themselves. The decision must be made of this, nothing more. Again, thank you for the response.

Your welcome

Why are we forced to make a decision simply based on two screen shots? You don't believe a vendors prior reputation and experience has any bearing whatsoever? You've never visited a vendor website that has cherry picked charts or backtest reports? Or you think just because a backtest has 135 trades and a 10 month history, that is enough proof for you that it is going to continue making $900 a month?

It is late, I do not wish to argue. People will always be searching for the holy grail. No doubt, if you post the vendor here and a URL, many people will flock to it with great interest. But you should try and open your eyes a bit more. I believe it was Dr Brett that said immediately after entering a trade he starts to analyze the trade from the opposite angle, for instance if he is long he immediately starts asking himself why he should instead be short. In other words, you need to look for what you may have missed. It's not about second guessing, it is about making sure you weren't being fooled.

Good luck.

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #34 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Big Mike View Post
Your welcome

Why are we forced to make a decision simply based on two screen shots? You don't believe a vendors prior reputation and experience has any bearing whatsoever? You've never visited a vendor website that has cherry picked charts or backtest reports? Or you think just because a backtest has 135 trades and a 10 month history, that is enough proof for you that it is going to continue making $900 a month?

It is late, I do not wish to argue. People will always be searching for the holy grail. No doubt, if you post the vendor here and a URL, many people will flock to it with great interest. But you should try and open your eyes a bit more. I believe it was Dr Brett that said immediately after entering a trade he starts to analyze the trade from the opposite angle, for instance if he is long he immediately starts asking himself why he should instead be short. In other words, you need to look for what you may have missed. It's not about second guessing, it is about making sure you weren't being fooled.

Good luck.

Mike

No good luck needed needed Mike. I have no vested interest in this--it is an academic exercise for me. I have personally backtested the results and I stand by those I have posted.

Obviously, this has hit a personal nerve with you. Given your history with your own ATS, I understand.

Good luck to you and thanks for your replies.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #35 (permalink)
 joe11 
chapel hill, nc
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, ToS
 
Posts: 36 since May 2010
Thanks: 25 given, 4 received

After having tested a "large" number of ATS over the last 6 years, I would pay 0 upfront for it. BUT I will pay 20% of the profit on an annual (or semi-annual, not quarterly or monthly) basis.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to joe11 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #36 (permalink)
 MXASJ 
Asia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, TOS
 
Posts: 798 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 109 given, 799 received

Just a thought, but what would you pay if you instead gave your funds to a money manager who had a track record? Typically "two and twenty". That is 2% of the money you give him is his base payment per year, and he then gets to keep 20% of the profits.

You can work that math backward to see what your monthly costs should be.

Just a different way of looking at things.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #37 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,046 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 857 given, 7,918 received


Zoethecus View Post
How do you know he isn't risking his own capital? Cory, you are off topic. You are more than welcome to post here on topic. Thanks for your cooperation.

It's Elementary and I even put in some number as requested but if you think I am off topic then I am off.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #38 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


joe11 View Post
After having tested a "large" number of ATS over the last 6 years, I would pay 0 upfront for it. BUT I will pay 20% of the profit on an annual (or semi-annual, not quarterly or monthly) basis.

In other words, you would pay only for performance regardless if you took the trades? That is not the way this works.

The vendor is selling subscriptions on a month-to-month basis with a no penaltyand cancellation at any time. that is to say, your commitment is for 30 days only. There is a pricing plan for a long term commitment, but that is not part of this exercise.

If you care to change your answer, let me know.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #39 (permalink)
 Dragon 
Bellingham, WA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja
Broker: Zen-Fire
Trading: 6E, CL
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Posts: 494 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 747 given, 258 received

I am with Mike on this one. I pay nothing until the vendor proves himself.

Lately I have wondered whether there are new vendors emerging after hacking through Aardvark or Hurley here on futures.io (formerly BMT) and claiming that work as their own (strats of which were never meant to be traded as is). Before we know it, it shows up all over Collective2 and people are buying into it based solely off one equity curve. Wait...
That's what we are all getting asked to do here right?

Well I guess I still better answer the question. What is the going rate for an investment manager? 2 or 3% of profits? If you are good enough then you could even charge .5% of profits because everyone would want you to trade their money.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #40 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


cory View Post
It's Elementary and I even put in some number as requested but if you think I am off topic then I am off.

Don't get defensive, Cory. You are smart enough after reading the posts to know what is on or off topic. The choice is yours if you want to be relevant.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #41 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,489 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 2,429 given, 3,767 received

Zoetheus, I want to give you useful info about the retail traders: Most will pay $150-$200 per subscription for the month, and many will even pay that per lot of subscription. Small percentage will pay one a one time fee of $1500-$2500 if the account if large enough ($25K and up). Sharing profits with the vendor is out of the question if soliciting retail accounts, as that would require licensing.

Allow me to share some input that you and your vendor might find useful.

1) The "code" could not be given out to the public, and allow them to trade that on their own. If the system is any good, traders will pile up lots, and that in it self will cause slippage for and deteriorate the returns of the system. So if there is a broker trading this, he/she must be conscious of the number of lots any one trader is given and that info has to be know to him.

2) You must look at the drawdown of any given system, Double it! and ask for an appropriate account size.
Systems sooner or later go through a draw down, and if the customer is not being explained on that, sooner than later, will pull his subscription out. My suggestions: ask for bigger account sizes that trade less lots, this potentially will minimize the risk. Small accounts can't survive most systems.

3) If the system is executed in the hands of a broker or a vendor, how is it being executed? what process is taken place to come as close as possible to the hypothetical/real results for the customers that will come on board? How is the low latency execution will be done?

4) Something I have learned the hardway: Did the vendor program it himself or did he come up with the concept and someone else has programmed it? This is SO critical. The vendor will have to give support on the program that it is running on. For me, if the Vendor wrote the code it's a huge plus, and any potential problems he would be able to support.

I think the data you are gathering is an excellent idea! This shows that you want to help the vendor and the people make the right decision.

Many traders are against automated trading, and I understand the passion of being in control, getting educated and the challenge. But in reality, many traders lose. Automation allows for discipline: automation does not change the number of lots on perception, it takes losses and it takes its profits. I have seen systems that have been trading for years without one single line of code changing.

I hope this will be useful and may many gather info like you do before they release anything out.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #42 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Dragon View Post
I am with Mike on this one. I pay nothing until the vendor proves himself.

Lately I have wondered whether there are new vendors emerging after hacking through Aardvark or Hurley here on futures.io (formerly BMT) and claiming that work as their own (strats of which were never meant to be traded as is). Before we know it, it shows up all over Collective2 and people are buying into it based solely off one equity curve. Wait...
That's what we are all getting asked to do here right?

Well I guess I still better answer the question. What is the going rate for an investment manager? 2 or 3% of profits? If you are good enough then you could even charge .5% of profits because everyone would want you to trade their money.

Dragon, thanks for your reply.

A typical hedge fund recieves a 2% fee of assets under management and 20% of the net profits.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #43 (permalink)
 zikonc 
san ramon
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: ninja
Broker: zen
Trading: es, 6e
 
Posts: 136 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 98 given, 76 received

8500-5*135(+/-)=7825/9months=870/mo profit, so you have to trade some serious contracts to make money. To risk 10 contracts I would not ever pay him %, maybe 50-100/month after I review his statement and match it with the backtest results. What is the likelihood of that scenario?

I still have to understand why would I sell something that makes me money. On the other hand, I would sell something to make money. Said that, I would pay him 0 based on the info you provided. I hope this helps.

z

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #44 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,489 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 2,429 given, 3,767 received


Zoethecus View Post

A typical hedge fund recieves a 2% fee of assets under management and 20% of the net profits.

I have dealt with hedge funds that will pull the plug on 20% drawdown from any new equity high.
This hard to achieve with automated programming done by most retail programmers/traders.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #45 (permalink)
 nanobiotech 
Brisbane, Australia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus/Zen-Fire
Trading: CL
 
nanobiotech's Avatar
 
Posts: 670 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 134 given, 429 received


Dragon View Post
Lately I have wondered whether there are new vendors emerging after hacking through Aardvark or Hurley here on futures.io (formerly BMT) and claiming that work as their own (strats of which were never meant to be traded as is). Before we know it, it shows up all over Collective2 and people are buying into it based solely off one equity curve. Wait...
That's what we are all getting asked to do here right?

Interesting point Dragon and I would not be surprised given the number of commercial ATS' out there, many of which are less than ethical at the least, so plagiarism is probably rampant. I say good luck to them as if I find any useful code I may use it too. My experience with Hurley & Aardvark has been a learning one. One of the things that is obvious to me now from these threads and my own observations going back more than 15 years now is that people are very keen to invest time & $$$ on trading systems that promise more $$$ than the investment (who here hasn't done that - indicators, trading software such as Elliot Wave a few years back, etc etc) and give up after struggling to correctly understand the system or discovering that is simply doesn't work ... in their hands.

As that great sci-fi show promised "the truth is out there" and while this may be true for ATMs (someone has to be making a killing with an ATM somewhere - without sharing it) the real truth is within each of us - we just have to individually discover "what works for me". For many of us this is discretionary trading futures or Forex, for others it is trading shares or options and yet others it is an ATM, each applied using your own rules that are proprietary to you.

I have lost track of the number of times I have read about a trader who is clearly very successful and yet many and probably most others who try to use their system fail. For example I subscribe to a share trading newsletter and by following it I quadrupled my $30k starting nest egg in 3 years applying my own interpretative rules to the newsletter advice, which to me seemed totally logical. However I note from the published annual newsletter report cards many people who subscribed to the newsletter failed to be successful even though they received the exact same advice as me. Therefore there is always an "X-Factor" in trading.

Perhaps the point I'm trying to make is that any ATS also requires an X-Factor in the head of the user to be successful - some intuitive function (preferred timeframe, number of cars, variable settings etc) unique to that user that makes the difference between being a winner or a loser. Loading and forgetting is definitely not the X-Factor.

Nano

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to nanobiotech for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #46 (permalink)
 David 
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 88 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 35 given, 84 received

It never fails to surprise me that so many people take the view that an "ATS can never work", or that they fail over time.

This is so wrong!

TBH I am particularly surprised that Big Mike takes his view about automated systems. He must have been barking up the wrong tree in his endeavours.

I personally know of a commercially available, but not well known, ATS based on NinjaTrader that is consistently profitable, is almost completely "set and forget" as it has very few parameters to tweak and as it trades around the natural tendencies of the market, is not prone to diminishing performance over time.

This is mainly because it does not use any indicators at all, but has a lot of internal logic to make trade decisions. BTW I am not saying anything more about what the system is or where to get it.

I am working on my own ATS and am close to finishing it. It has taken me months of work - thousands of hours, probably - but it seems solid now, though I worry that NT might not be the best platform for it (time will tell).

It is a set and forget system and this is what has been the challenge. The system has to deal with all market conditions without user intervention or parameter tweaking. Implementing this has been extremely challenging - in fact I think this is pretty much the most difficult software project I have undertaken, and I have many years of commercial programming experience with blue chip and Government clients.

Would I sell licences for this ATS, assuming that it actually works under live conditions? Almost certainly not, and if I did, I would charge $1000s per month for the licence as it would actually be worth that.

Having said that, I have two very good friends who are multi millionaires and are very senior and experienced in capital markets and both have expresssed a desire to give some me funds to manage with the ATS. They have great contacts so fund management could be a possibility, assuming that the transition to live goes smoothly. The ATS should work with any liquid future, by the way.

Another friend is the best programmer I've ever come across. He develeoped a HFT system for a major bank that made 500,000 profit a day! He has spent a year developing another HFT system for a fund that is finally live and most importantly, finally profitable.

So automated trading systems are possible, profitable and do work over time, even based on NT. They are far from easy to develop though if you want to avoid curve fitting and guarantee longevity.

To answer the question about an ATS being detrimental to the love of trading from my point of view:

I personally do not love trading, even though I find it quite enjoyable when I manually trade the signals that the ATS uses, to test the veracity of the system.

I have decided that I am not a good discretionary trader, but want to benefit financially from the opportunities in the markets.

This is why I have invested so much time in developing an ATS .I have enjoyed (mostly) the technical challenge and really deeply want the controlled risk/rewards and discipline that the ATS brings. I just don't trust myself to follow my own rules day in and day out and I also don't want to be tied to the screen for hours on end.

In effect, I am using my programming expertise, and interest in trading, to overcome my failings as a discretionary trader, but that is fine by me!

David

Reply With Quote
The following 9 users say Thank You to David for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #47 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,489 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 2,429 given, 3,767 received

David, thank you for infusing such a positive spirit about automated trading.

In my honest opinion, it also takes lots of discipline to tun your own systems on without jumping in, second guessing and letting the machine do their own thing. The benefits could be incredible, from trading a consistent number of lots to no revenge trading of "have to make my money back". I also believe that many trader could automate their trading with simple price action, using the NinjaTrader features (NinjaTrader--Tools--New NinjaScript--Strategy)

I am not saying that all methodologies could be automated, but if one can, he /she should try.


As for outside vendors:
The challenge of course is always to over come the "why is it sold?", and to that I have a few answers:
Some developers while have the ability to develop systems, don't have the ability to follow their own systems.
Like I said, it takes nerves of steel to follow...even your own system.
Not all system developers have the capital to trade the system they develop, like your friend who made $500K a day in HFT, I doubt he has the capital himself to make such profits, never the less, a talent.

I hope that those of us who do have a a passion for it, could help each others in this department.
From exploring the automation in NinjaTrader and MultiCharts to evaluating what vendors offer.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #48 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Folks, please try to stay on topic. The purpose of this thread is not to debate the pros and cons of ATS, but rather to express an unbiased opinion of what the ATS in the OP is worth on a monthly susbscription basis.

Thank you for your cooperation and participation.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #49 (permalink)
 David 
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 88 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 35 given, 84 received

Sorry, Zoe, I did not want to take this thread off topic. I'll just post two very quick replies to the points that Mattz made and then I'll shut up


Quoting 
In my honest opinion, it also takes lots of discipline to tun your own systems on without jumping in, second guessing and letting the machine do their own thing.

Yes, you have to have real faith in the ATS, just as you need real confidence in your own abilities as a discretionary trader.


Quoting 
like your friend who made $500K a day in HFT, I doubt he has the capital himself to make such profits, never the less, a talent.

It wasn't his money, as he worked for one of the UK's biggest banks


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #50 (permalink)
 eensor 
New Braunfels, TX
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Zen-Fire
Trading: futures
 
Posts: 127 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 922 given, 20 received


Zoethecus View Post
I'm in the midst of trying a vendor's ATS product. I am going to withhold his name until this little project is over.

I have optimized the results strictly using MM because I don't have access to the indicators, so this is best one could hope for trading this. (The results using the vendor's default setting were approximately $1500 less.) This is a time bar based ATS, so the results were achievable. In addition, I have observed the ATS live and the performance backtests accurately. The posted results are for one contract. Be sure to consider the cost of commission (which I didn't include) in your analysis.

What I'm looking for from the community is an answer to this: On a monthly basis, what would you be willing to pay for this ATS, if you were interested in this sort of thing. It doesn't matter if you'd never purchase an ATS--you can still give your opinion as if you were interested. After I compile your responses--and please be serious--I will post the actual price and the vendor's name.

I am doing this because I often think there is a disconnect between what a vendor thinks his product is worth and what the market will bear. Products like this are easier to evaluate because they can produce real results and profits. It's not totally nebulous or a major leap of faith by the buyer if they believe the performance can continue in a like fashion as the past.

Be advised that I have no interest, nor affiliation with this vendor or his product. In no way is this an endorsement of the vendor.

Thanks for your participation and time.

Post script: If I determine in my sole discretion there isn't enough feedback to make this meaningful to the community, I will not disclose the vendor or his subscription price.

900/contract per month = 99/month.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #51 (permalink)
 stevenvdv 
Antwerp, Belgium
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Multicharts, Ninjatrader
Trading: EUR/USD
 
stevenvdv's Avatar
 
Posts: 4 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 66 given, 0 received

200$ a month, if the low DDs persist this one could make more. Zoethecus, did you factor in creative position sizing techniques (market's money approach etc) in your backtesting?

S

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #52 (permalink)
 joe11 
chapel hill, nc
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, ToS
 
Posts: 36 since May 2010
Thanks: 25 given, 4 received

IMHO, we need to differentiate a hedge fund and ATS. Successful hedge funds do not rely solely on ATS. If at all they use ATS, they know when to cut it loose. Obviously long term profits on any ATS is 0. That is essentially the Efficient Market Hypothesis (folks interested in theoritical maths can further read about it)...

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #53 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


stevenvdv View Post
200$ a month, if the low DDs persist this one could make more. Zoethecus, did you factor in creative position sizing techniques (market's money approach etc) in your backtesting?

S

No.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #54 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009


Big Mike View Post
I feel that the results will not continue. My opinion is traders should not pursue automation as a means to be successful in trading. Too many are lured in by false hopes and cherry picked charts. Too many believe just because a strategy made $900 a month in the past means it will in the future. Few understand backtesting and curve fitting. Fewer still understand proper forward testing. In the end, most people I've met that pursue automation do so because they are either lazy or foolish ("I just want a strategy that can earn $1,000 a month with low risk"), or are trying to find a short cut for their own pitfalls in their own discretionary trading (ie: failure to take responsibility for their actions, wanting to place blame elsewhere).

No need for me to say more.

Mike

I have to disagree with the part about those automating strategies are either lazy or foolish... at the end of the day, when you trade, you follow a plan... which are rules, and yes not all rules can be defined by code to follow which is why there is also discretion when trading as our experience becomes the rules over time...anyhow, if rules can be followed then they can be coded and as such automated to react much faster and process more information than we can real time... now, the only thing i find foolish is when people tend to over-optimize and not walkforward and test their strategies; just like people who trade in simm and think they can trade with real money because they were succesfull in simm.. .. to summarize, if one has a discretionary method that works, why not automate it? ... btw, that does not mean set and forget it... as no system is infallible.. just my 2cents.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #55 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009

Zoe... I would suggest that in order to make the data gathering for your analysis more relevant that you could perhaps create a poll that would list subscription ranges.. $0-50, $50-100, $100-200, $200-300, $300+ ... that way the data would be easier to analyze ... and you could avoid opinions that were not related to the goal..

everyone will always have their own opinion formulated on their own experienced...

as to the question, I would say assuming the system had a trial, 10-20 days, which would enable one to perform ones own testing against multiple markets, on replay data, etc... I would say a range of $100-$200 would be "acceptable" to me assuming it can be cancelled at any time and prorated.. and also, I will add one more thing... vendor support and their ability to take feedback and collaborate would be critical... and if they limited the number of subscribers to a given number or not in order to maintain whatever edge they might have found..

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #56 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Since the overall futures.io (formerly BMT) response was weak reflecting, I think, a general lack of interest in ATS. I am only disclosing the fees, not the vendor.

2 Week trial license: $9.95

Monthly license: $399

6 Month license: $1890

Lifetime license $ 3990

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #57 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,094 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,556 given, 98,584 received


Zoethecus View Post
Since the overall futures.io (formerly BMT) response was weak reflecting

You get out what you put in

If you want more ATS stuff here, start sharing ATS's...

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #58 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Big Mike View Post
You get out what you put in

If you want more ATS stuff here, start sharing ATS's...

Mike

Likewise.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #59 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,094 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,556 given, 98,584 received


Zoethecus View Post
Likewise.

I have shared the full source of several that I have written.

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #60 (permalink)
 MWinfrey 
Lubbock TX
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Stage 5 Trading
Trading: CL
 
MWinfrey's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,880 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 1,450 given, 3,325 received

Zoe,

I'm curious. Do you write your own code for your ATSs? If so, then you understand what it takes to write the rules and I would appreciate some help writing more effective rules specifically for the JMA method that I'm using.

Mike Winfrey

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #61 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


MWinfrey View Post
Zoe,

I'm curious. Do you write your own code for your ATSs? If so, then you understand what it takes to write the rules and I would appreciate some help writing more effective rules specifically for the JMA method that I'm using.

Mike Winfrey

Mike, I only develop, not code, systems.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #62 (permalink)
 MWinfrey 
Lubbock TX
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Stage 5 Trading
Trading: CL
 
MWinfrey's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,880 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 1,450 given, 3,325 received


Zoethecus View Post
Mike, I only develop, not code, systems.

Does that mean you have someone else write the code for your ATSs?

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #63 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


MWinfrey View Post
Does that mean you have someone else write the code for your ATSs?

Yes.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #64 (permalink)
 MWinfrey 
Lubbock TX
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Stage 5 Trading
Trading: CL
 
MWinfrey's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,880 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 1,450 given, 3,325 received


Zoethecus View Post
Yes.

ok then you must understand what it takes to write the rules. this is off-topic but it seems you've finished this thread for the reason it was started so I'm asking if you are willing to help me develop the rules necessary to automate. I'll do the coding. I want to understand how the rules can be constructed to stand the test of time without curvefitting.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #65 (permalink)
 traderwerks   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 693 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 434 given, 464 received

@Zoethecus

To answer your original question , there is not enough information to definite answer but here are some thoughts.

The system needs ~60% win rate to break even, and your backtest is about 75%. It uses parameters since your changes resulted in a $1,500 change in profit from the vendors so I do suspect some curve fitting. But a 15% drop in win rate is certainly possible moving from backtesting to walk forward testing to actual trading, which would take this from a profitable system to an unprofitable one.

Does it use limit orders or market orders to enter/exit the market ? How long has someone traded the system with live money in the market? How closely do real trading results compare with the theoretical profits?

I would not pay anything for it. I have multiple reason that I will not go into, except to say caveat emptor.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to traderwerks for this post:


futures io Trading Community Trading Reviews and Vendors > Fair price for ATS


Last Updated on October 21, 2010


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing

NEW BlackBird Features + FOREX Support w/Jeremy Tang @ SharkIndicators

Elite only
 

Our 12-year anniversary w/ $$,$$$ prizes (check soon)

June
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada), info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts