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Order Flow Analytics (www.orderflowanalytics.com)


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Order Flow Analytics (www.orderflowanalytics.com)

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  #1 (permalink)
eminitrader
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The website is OrderFlowAnalytics.com I seen a little webinar for them selling there system. It seems pretty cool, they say volume leads price. They have this certain volume indicator that they made. I was wondering if there was anyone here who actual has experience with their product, or knows of an indicator here that is like it.

Can't really put up pictures, cuz they don't have any I can put on here.

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  #3 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
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Is it my imagination, or are trading vendors multiplying faster than maggots on a pos?

Seems like I get an email from NT every other day announcing 2-3 new vendors selling a field of dreams.

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  #4 (permalink)
eminitrader
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Zoethecus View Post
Is it my imagination, or are trading vendors multiplying faster than maggots on a pos?

Seems like I get an email from NT every other day announcing 2-3 new vendors selling a field of dreams.

Haha it is the truth. They sell like hot cakes

But it seemed interesting. Most are just

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  #5 (permalink)
 LukeGeniol 
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eminitrader View Post
Haha it is the truth. They sell like hot cakes

But it seemed interesting. Most are just

Here we have a similar indicator for elite member called GomVolumeLadder, take a look on wiki page.

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Luke.
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  #6 (permalink)
 ghman101 
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OFA...dang, this latest vid (not the original stuff) really looks incredible >> https://admin.connectpro.acrobat.com/_a816688188/p31052966/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal

any idea how to get:
1. That Volume Meter - awesome...color bars showing how volume leads price from the Time and Sales, starting upon opening of the order and stopping at the the target...I need that!!!

2. A summary of all Time & Sales struck at each price level? nice

Sure would like to figure out the 2 different order flow algo's they use at or near support/resistance levels, to actually enter the trade for you. They say it is a repeatable patter of order flow, at or near the price level....very interesting, and they say proven over 3 years of testing, to represent like 85% of the situations...that is amazing...could be B.S. but who knows. Seems gooooood. wondering if it is something like; touch (or within X ticks near) the price level, then if order flow reverses X% of ATR, but then comes back to within Y% of price level, go with that direction? huh. Just need to study the order flow in a very slow manner, right around key price levels to see what the pattern is?

Extremely interesting. Comments (vs. flaming, har) appreciated. gh

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  #7 (permalink)
 aviat72 
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YouTube - OrderFlowAnalytics's Channel

Better video (it is on 3 parts). The above link (Acrobat stuff) is bad.

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  #8 (permalink)
 ZTR 
 
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LukeGeniol View Post
Here we have a similar indicator for elite member called GomVolumeLadder, take a look on wiki page.

Yes, but does it help you pull the trigger like Order Flow Analytics says it does?

I'd like it to scream it at me like AC/DC does in Thiunder Struck.

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  #9 (permalink)
 MXASJ 
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Interesting piece of software. I'm guessing it requires you to get a second Zen login from your broker and uses the Ninja ATI to talk to NT. Anyone able to confirm that?

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  #10 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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MXASJ View Post
Interesting piece of software. I'm guessing it requires you to get a second Zen login from your broker and uses the Ninja ATI to talk to NT. Anyone able to confirm that?

that is correct, I believe they have a video where they mention it.

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  #11 (permalink)
 MXASJ 
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Saw the video and heard the mention of the ATI, but must have missed the requirement for a second log in.

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  #12 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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MXASJ View Post
Saw the video and heard the mention of the ATI, but must have missed the requirement for a second log in.

different video, I have a few of theirs since I find it interesting and I was trying to duplicate their concept with MarketDelta.... in any event, that one on the post does not mention it at all... but you do need second login, which the broker is more than willing to do for you.. it is still tied to the same account.

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  #13 (permalink)
 ghman101 
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Hmmm...wondering if we watched the action, by capturing it on Camtasia or whatever, and slowly replayed it...as price action hits a key Support/Resistance (S/R) level, if we could ever spot a pattern of how price reacts to it. This seems to be what OFA has done in identifying two patterns, one like I think it was 65% of the time and the other like 15% of the time...occuring. Then somehow we could write a routine to test for that pattern, and backtest like they did, to get those numbers...or perhaps I'm just dreaming?!?

The other thing, I need to post a request to indicator development thread, to see if someone would code that volume meter, once you enter a trade...man that would be quite slick! Not to mention having Time and Sales grouped by price level...kind of a no-brainer when you think about it...amazing NT hasn't done it yet frankly.

Just my thoughts, gh

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  #14 (permalink)
 aviat72 
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There is a catch in what OFA is saying.

They say that a reversal matches the pattern x% of time.
They do not say how often the pattern matches a reversal.

They do mention that you should look for the pattern at points where you expect a reversal.

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  #15 (permalink)
 paolfili 
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It' s another thread exhausted on TL
Order Flow Analytics
Zenfire feed is not serious about delta (bid/ask).

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  #16 (permalink)
 benbrooke 
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sysot1t View Post
different video, I have a few of theirs since I find it interesting and I was trying to duplicate their concept with MarketDelta.... in any event, that one on the post does not mention it at all... but you do need second login, which the broker is more than willing to do for you.. it is still tied to the same account.

guys ,

using reversal chart with Volume price statistic (POC) can be better
as for the trade tracking using regular time and sell to see the tape work good just use some sort of filter and see if they agree with your trade

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  #17 (permalink)
 vegasfoster 
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Even if it works, I really don't think it's a good idea to become reliant on any proprietary alert/trade system where you don't know how the signals are generated.

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  #18 (permalink)
 Michael.H 
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Would you mind sharing your chart definition for your screenshot that you provided of the footprint chart on market delta.. Looks very clean compared to the default settings.

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  #19 (permalink)
 Bids 
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The thing with software like orderflow analytics, it's just a massively glorified indicator that doesn't really tell you much. The only thing it's telling you is what is trading at the bid and ask and nothing more, which is only half the picture you need. Everything you need is on your order. Watch this video on youtube YouTube - Scalping ES with Order Flow

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  #20 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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Michael.H View Post
Would you mind sharing your chart definition for your screenshot that you provided of the footprint chart on market delta.. Looks very clean compared to the default settings.

+1, I have been trying to duplicate that screen in MD without much success... if you could share it would be great..

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  #21 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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benbrooke View Post
guys ,

using reversal chart with Volume price statistic (POC) can be better
as for the trade tracking using regular time and sell to see the tape work good just use some sort of filter and see if they agree with your trade

I tried filtering, but I feel that it can be missleading as it would basically exclude possibly lots of volume.. larget lots are not always right.. the idea behind what they are doing as well is that they are aggregating the volume at a given price on the B or A side.. so if 1000 cars traded (they could have been 1,5,13,27,50,100 sizes) @ 1159.25 A.. and 2000 cars traded (who knows what config) on the B side... it would group them together instead of showing each individual transaction.. that is how I believe it works..

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  #22 (permalink)
 ghman101 
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Bids View Post
The thing with software like orderflow analytics, it's just a massively glorified indicator that doesn't really tell you much. The only thing it's telling you is what is trading at the bid and ask and nothing more, which is only half the picture you need. Everything you need is on your order. Watch this video on youtube YouTube - Scalping ES with Order Flow

No sound on that vid link?

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  #23 (permalink)
 benbrooke 
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Michael.H View Post
Would you mind sharing your chart definition for your screenshot that you provided of the footprint chart on market delta.. Looks very clean compared to the default settings.

you can find a similar chart

post #108

Enjoy

Keep on sowing your seed, for you never know which will grow -- perhaps it all will.

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 vegasfoster 
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Bids View Post
The thing with software like orderflow analytics, it's just a massively glorified indicator that doesn't really tell you much. The only thing it's telling you is what is trading at the bid and ask and nothing more, which is only half the picture you need. Everything you need is on your order. Watch this video on youtube YouTube - Scalping ES with Order Flow


What's he doing?

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  #25 (permalink)
 aviat72 
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sysot1t View Post
+1, I have been trying to duplicate that screen in MD without much success... if you could share it would be great..

Try these. I think I got them from one of Fiki's earlier threads

Attached Files
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  #26 (permalink)
 Bids 
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vegasfoster View Post
What's he doing?

Reading the order flow on the order book. What has traded at each price is only half the story, which as i've mentioned in a couple of other posts is why I don't rate software like market delta/md spin offs or stuff like that order flow analytic crap (the worse one i've seen to date)

The way I personally look at it is that it's like boiling an egg. There's two options, the normal way which works fine, or the lazy man way where you go out and buy a $120 gadget that says it will give you the perfect boiled egg every time, but never does, then just breaks.

Carrying on the the analogy, just get a pan and water to boil your egg, it's worked for as long as eggs have existed, you can get it exactly how you want it, and being able to boil an egg is a basic skill you need if you want to be a chef, or in this case a trader

Another video for you: YouTube - Day Trading ES 18th October.avi

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  #27 (permalink)
 ghman101 
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Bids View Post
Reading the order flow on the order book. What has traded at each price is only half the story, which as i've mentioned in a couple of other posts is why I don't rate software like market delta/md spin offs or stuff like that order flow analytic crap (the worse one i've seen to date)

The way I personally look at it is that it's like boiling an egg. There's two options, the normal way which works fine, or the lazy man way where you go out and buy a $120 gadget that says it will give you the perfect boiled egg every time, but never does, then just breaks.

Carrying on the the analogy, just get a pan and water to boil your egg, it's worked for as long as eggs have existed, you can get it exactly how you want it, and being able to boil an egg is a basic skill you need if you want to be a chef, or in this case a trader

Another video for you: YouTube - Day Trading ES 18th October.avi

Not sure why you are posting these vids...do they have sound? perhaps it is my problem, but no sound and I cannot understand what is being conveyed. Thanks for any help, gh

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  #28 (permalink)
 Chipmunk 
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Hi Bids, what instruments do you use in your trading then if you say order book and cumulative delta useless?

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  #29 (permalink)
 vegasfoster 
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Bids View Post
Reading the order flow on the order book.

I get that, you seem knowledgeable on the subject, so I just meant do you know in a nutshell what's he looking for? For example, in a nutshell on a chart I am primarily looking for a bounce off a trend line or a break followed by a pullback. Maybe it's more complicated than that or if you don't know that's cool, thanks.

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 spx_tdr 
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Is there any kind of order flow indies with Ninja? Something that may show orderflow divergence?

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  #31 (permalink)
 LukeGeniol 
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spx_tdr View Post
Is there any kind of order flow indies with Ninja? Something that may show orderflow divergence?

Are you not aware of gomi indicators?

Take your Pips, go out and Live.
Luke.
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  #32 (permalink)
 Michael.H 
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I don't understand why everything needs to be automated. why not just watch the ladder and trade from there?

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  #33 (permalink)
 spx_tdr 
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LukeGeniol View Post
Are you not aware of gomi indicators?

Yea I am , and do have them... But I was thinking more along these lines...(chart below)

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 Michael.H 
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I trade primarily using volume bid/ask studies... I want to warn you that divergences like the one you posted on your picture don't always play out like that....

In fact, i look at a specific delta # or more in order to be considered valid as a trade entry to go counter trend. What that number is depends on your time frame etc... so you need to do your own due diligence . Hope this helps.

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  #35 (permalink)
 spx_tdr 
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Michael.H View Post
I trade primarily using volume bid/ask studies... I want to warn you that divergences like the one you posted on your picture don't always play out like that....

In fact, i look at a specific delta # or more in order to be considered valid as a trade entry to go counter trend. What that number is depends on your time frame etc... so you need to do your own due diligence . Hope this helps.

Yea I understand what you are saying... I have a sytem I have been working on for sometime now and was just looking for a order flow / not based on volume indie such as on the chart to add to my system... or rather compliment it

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  #36 (permalink)
 cory 
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spx_tdr View Post
Yea I am , and do have them... But I was thinking more along these lines...(chart below)

this one show diverg too.

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  #37 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
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spx_tdr View Post
Yea I am , and do have them... But I was thinking more along these lines...(chart below)

this is malcolm,s system. have to say, his results are very impressive. Not really cheap, but certainly one of the better systems out there.

but I don't think it's for everybody. I believe his system is not meant to scalp only for 1 or 2 points, it's more like 5 points and more. So I guess there will be a few losers on the way.

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  #38 (permalink)
 timmyb 
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spx_tdr View Post
Yea I am , and do have them... But I was thinking more along these lines...(chart below)


have u looked at gom cd??

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  #39 (permalink)
 exiledgoblin 
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LukeGeniol View Post
Here we have a similar indicator for elite member called GomVolumeLadder, take a look on wiki page.

Hi Luke,

I've looked at Gomi's indicators half a dozen times and can't seem to find any coherent discussion anywhere as what they mean or how they might provide trading signals or what a trade setup looks like. I've looked at Market Delta's videos...lots of stuff about software "features" (as if I care) but very little useful guidance for someone who wants to trade instead of play with software. I've seen abstract discussions about theory, debates about data providers, etc. But so far not much that is useful for someone coming new to the whole order flow approach to trading. Any suggestions as to where I might find something a bit more concrete...like chart setups and trade setups?

Much obliged!

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  #40 (permalink)
ssgtcalhoun
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Comparing GOM and MD to OFA is like comparing NYC to Omaha just because they are both in the USA. I own OFA v5 after paying MD $100+ per month for years. There is no comparison. It's not just about the price ladder - anyone can build that. These guys are 10 years ahead of the industry. Now the trade tracking gauge is fully automated. Trader Kingdom has a webinar by them tomorrow. If you are really lost in this comparison you should check it out or get a demo for yourself. Asking a bunch of people who don't own it but criticize everything with a price tag is not going to get you anywhere.

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 LukeGeniol 
Italy (IT)
 
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Yep, the last release of OFA is really out of the box, anyway very pricy.

Take your Pips, go out and Live.
Luke.
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  #42 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
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Hi, there's no setup that OFA does that I can't do with Gomi's tools and standard Ninjatrader stuff.

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 omaron 
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MetalTrade View Post
Hi, there's no setup that OFA does that I can't do with Gomi's tools and standard Ninjatrader stuff.

Gomi's tools are great indeed, but can it do this too: YouTube - OrderFlowAnalytics's Channel ?

You can fast forward to about minute 9 of the video, fist half is basic trailing and theory.

For me (that is a newbie) looks very interesting and useful to keep you out of trouble (if is not another thing that only works 5% of the time)

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 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
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Hi, there's no setup that OFA does that I can't do with Gomi's tools and standard Ninjatrader stuff.

Hate to sound like a broken record but how? OFA gives actionable information. The Gomi ladder (like Market Delta and the like) just gives me breakdowns of bid/ask volumes at various price levels. What the heck am I supposed to do with that information? How do I trade it?

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 MetalTrade 
 
 
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There are many setups that are based on the market delta/gomi volume ladder information.

We had a webinar planned about this but unfortunately that didn't worked out.

I trade with 3 systems, one is completely based on the gomi volume ladder, maybe one day I will be good enough to talk about it on Bigmike.

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 lolu 
Lagos, Nigeria
 
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omaron View Post
Gomi's tools are great indeed, but can it do this too: YouTube - OrderFlowAnalytics's Channel ?

You can fast forward to about minute 9 of the video, fist half is basic trailing and theory.

For me (that is a newbie) looks very interesting and useful to keep you out of trouble (if is not another thing that only works 5% of the time)

Timmyb's Prometheus Strat seems to be "destined" to achieve this, but Timmy seems to be absent from futures.io (formerly BMT) for a while now and the Prometheus project seems stalled at the moment.

Lolu

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 trendisyourfriend 
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ssgtcalhoun View Post
Comparing GOM and MD to OFA is like comparing NYC to Omaha just because they are both in the USA. I own OFA v5 after paying MD $100+ per month for years. There is no comparison. It's not just about the price ladder - anyone can build that. These guys are 10 years ahead of the industry. Now the trade tracking gauge is fully automated. Trader Kingdom has a webinar by them tomorrow. If you are really lost in this comparison you should check it out or get a demo for yourself. Asking a bunch of people who don't own it but criticize everything with a price tag is not going to get you anywhere.

I have seen their webinar after reading your comment. The least i can say is that their trade tracking gauge seems impressive. Seems almost to good to be true. How much is the tracking gauge ? or is it part of a more complete package ? Have you begun to use it in your trading ?

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  #48 (permalink)
 Ben16JP2 
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I trade with 3 systems, one is completely based on the gomi volume ladder, maybe one day I will be good enough to talk about it on Bigmike.

MetalTrade, I and many others I think would be looking forward this.

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  #49 (permalink)
 sam028 
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I have seen their webinar after reading your comment. The least i can say is that their trade tracking gauge seems impressive. Seems almost to good to be true. How much is the tracking gauge ? or is it part of a more complete package ? Have you begun to use it in your trading ?

If it seems too good to be true, what do you think we have here ?



Ben16JP2 View Post
MetalTrade, I and many others I think would be looking forward this.

Like many others, I'll be very happy to see an honest point of view about these concepts.
The concept is smart, but is it possible to use it efficiently in a real world ?
Not sure...

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 trendisyourfriend 
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...
Like many others, I'll be very happy to see an honest point of view about these concepts.
The concept is smart, but is it possible to use it efficiently in a real world ?
Not sure...

sam028, don't you feel this mysterious aura surrounding this concept ? étrange, n'est-ce pas ?

P.S. c'est quoi cet avatar ? une nouvelle version de Linux piratée ?

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 sam028 
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sam028, don't you feel this mysterious aura surrounding this concept ? étrange, n'est-ce pas ?

P.S. c'est quoi cet avatar ? une nouvelle version de Linux piratée ?

I don't know, but my guts tells me that.
The concept is smart enough to let us think: "Hey, most of the guys don't know anything about that, that a huge advantage for us !!!".
But on the other side, that will make laugh a Quant trainee: too simple !!!

I don't like mysterious auras .


ps: exact, un Tux pirate. Mais c'est fini, maintenant c'est " Fukushima mon amour".

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 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
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There are many setups that are based on the market delta/gomi volume ladder information.

We had a webinar planned about this but unfortunately that didn't worked out.

I trade with 3 systems, one is completely based on the gomi volume ladder, maybe one day I will be good enough to talk about it on Bigmike.

Waiting with baited breath. Sign me up!

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 omaron 
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I, unlike many others here, don't have any trading experience. Still in SIM, still looking for something too good to be true that is really true . At this moment just overwhelmed with all the potential systems and unable to get and stick with one..

However, i have 7 years experience in online selling and marketing and i know those systems . Very used one is "make too good to be true statements, show some kind of proofs, put a high price tag, surround everything in a mystery aura, get a few good testimonials and you are good to go". There will always be customers that will honestly believe in you and your product. That happens often in the "internet marketing" arena. There are as well lot of "gurus" selling "too good to be true" products that miserably fail to deliver. What they never tell you is how many from their clients used to have poor results and after using their products things improved dramatically.

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 traderTX 
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I think the point is to understand the pure essence in its simplest most basic aspect of a market, and order flow , time and sales, or tape reading

who is the guy who wrote the book on it back in 1920's? It is on my list of books to read. so it isnt a new subject. Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Edwin Lefevre about Jesse Livermore.

That is really what Market Profile, Market Delta, OFA and Gomi are capturing in their own unique way.
The essence of buyers and sellers moving the market.


and once you get it, then just watching time and sales might be enough, if you dont get it, then all the software in the world probably wont make it a success.

i have been watching OFA's vids on gootube and they are fully informative.
confusion leads to understanding.

Trade what you see, not what you think.

"The better the mechanic, the fewer the tools"

"Futures Trading is risky and can cause substantial financial gain"
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 Serenpipity 
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Well said. If you dont get the basics.... I highly recommend the book to anyone who wants to know
what goes on "behind the scenes".

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 Aragorn 
Salt Lake City, UT
 
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omaron View Post
I, unlike many others here, don't have any trading experience. Still in SIM, still looking for something too good to be true that is really true . At this moment just overwhelmed with all the potential systems and unable to get and stick with one..

However, i have 7 years experience in online selling and marketing and i know those systems . Very used one is "make too good to be true statements, show some kind of proofs, put a high price tag, surround everything in a mystery aura, get a few good testimonials and you are good to go". There will always be customers that will honestly believe in you and your product. That happens often in the "internet marketing" arena. There are as well lot of "gurus" selling "too good to be true" products that miserably fail to deliver. What they never tell you is how many from their clients used to have poor results and after using their products things improved dramatically.

I enjoyed your post omaron. Your honesty is refreshing. A few words of advice. Stop looking. Stop testing. Stop experimenting. Stop changing charts every few days. Stop changing indicators and settings looking for the perfect combination. It doesn't exist. Ever notice that indicators will work on one chart at a particular setting but not at other times? So what do we do? Change charts and notice the same thing- it works sometimes but not at other times. So then we start to change the settings until we conclude the indicator doesn't work and then it's on to the next one. Sound familiar? Most of us have been there. Most of us have done it. Trading comes down to one thing and one thing only- making a decision. Oh there'll be someone who wants to argue that indicators are the key to making a decision or that we need them to help us make a decision. Look my friend, until we have a crystal ball, no indicator is going to tell us what orders are going to be traded in the next minute, or the next five minutes or ten or fifteen. The orders that have been traded are done and their impact on the market is over. There is no indicator that is going to tell you what the traders sitting on the sidelines are going to do. Not OFA, not Market Delta or any other bid/ask tool. They tell you what has traded- not what is going to be. To trade you need to know: 1) what side of the market you need to be on (Say what they will, nothing is more effective than a simple moving average- and it's free); 2) timing- when the market does this then I do this. Multiple time frames are required. One to see the big picture and one small. A 3:1 or 4:1 works best for most. I personally like to use stochastics (on both timeframes) and the MACD and wait for them to line up (and they're free). 3) a decision technique. This is what it comes down to- making a decision to enter the market. This is the hardest. There is no magic formula. There is no right or wrong way. It's your money and you have to be willing to live with and to accept the results. Welcome to trading! And 4) you have to know when you're wrong and be willing to let it go and move on to the next. Hope it helps.

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 Ganymed 
Switzerland
 
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Aragorn View Post
I enjoyed your post omaron. Your honesty is refreshing. A few words of advice. Stop looking. Stop testing. Stop experimenting. Stop changing charts every few days. Stop changing indicators and settings looking for the perfect combination. It doesn't exist. Ever notice that indicators will work on one chart at a particular setting but not at other times? So what do we do? Change charts and notice the same thing- it works sometimes but not at other times. So then we start to change the settings until we conclude the indicator doesn't work and then it's on to the next one. Sound familiar? Most of us have been there. Most of us have done it. Trading comes down to one thing and one thing only- making a decision. Oh there'll be someone who wants to argue that indicators are the key to making a decision or that we need them to help us make a decision. Look my friend, until we have a crystal ball, no indicator is going to tell us what orders are going to be traded in the next minute, or the next five minutes or ten or fifteen. The orders that have been traded are done and their impact on the market is over. There is no indicator that is going to tell you what the traders sitting on the sidelines are going to do. Not OFA, not Market Delta or any other bid/ask tool. They tell you what has traded- not what is going to be. To trade you need to know: 1) what side of the market you need to be on (Say what they will, nothing is more effective than a simple moving average- and it's free); 2) timing- when the market does this then I do this. Multiple time frames are required. One to see the big picture and one small. A 3:1 or 4:1 works best for most. I personally like to use stochastics (on both timeframes) and the MACD and wait for them to line up (and they're free). 3) a decision technique. This is what it comes down to- making a decision to enter the market. This is the hardest. There is no magic formula. There is no right or wrong way. It's your money and you have to be willing to live with and to accept the results. Welcome to trading! And 4) you have to know when you're wrong and be willing to let it go and move on to the next. Hope it helps.

You are so right, simplicity is the best, I use succesfully from ShadowTraders offering Emini,Futures Trading,Currency Trading the STO, MACD and 13 EMA, 20 MA in 4:1 MFA for finding a trading opportunity and for exit the trades from OFA Order Flow Analytics the new OFAv5 trade tragger for a great, optimised and automatic exit.

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  #58 (permalink)
 zxxaxz 
Springfield
 
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Ganymed View Post
You are so right, simplicity is the best, I use succesfully from ShadowTraders offering Emini,Futures Trading,Currency Trading the STO, MACD and 13 EMA, 20 MA in 4:1 MFA for finding a trading opportunity and for exit the trades from OFA Order Flow Analytics the new OFAv5 trade tragger for a great, optimised and automatic exit.

"Hey, Forget the $1,000 . Forget $500. Would $200 a night make a difference?. If I said you could make $200 a night, after work, $4,000 each month, would that make a difference to your lifestyle?
(Remember, Melanie made $200 in 10 minutes of trading!)"

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  #59 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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zxxaxz View Post
"Hey, Forget the $1,000 . Forget $500. Would $200 a night make a difference?. If I said you could make $200 a night, after work, $4,000 each month, would that make a difference to your lifestyle?
(Remember, Melanie made $200 in 10 minutes of trading!)"

haha, those guys crack me up....

I would say "forget about $, focus on ticks on a risk-adjusted basis"

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 FulcrumTrader 
Austin, TX & Las Vegas, NV
 
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The order flow/order book info within color coded price bars that Kyle is getting set up at his TrendScalping site, is by far the most simplistic visual representation on charts I have ever seen. Focusing on following trends, and entering trades when everything is in alignment, is the path of least resistance approach to intraday trading.

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  #61 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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FulcrumTrader View Post
set up at his TrendScalping site

BTW, a vendor thread exists for this already for those interested:



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  #62 (permalink)
 Focustrader 
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Anyone, who is using OFA v5 for ES futures can you please comment on, how it is helping in the entry accuracy?

OFA doesn't have a subscription based service right? Like say, if one wants to try it for 1 or 2 months.

Thanks
Focustrader

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  #63 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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Focustrader View Post
Anyone, who is using OFA v5 for ES futures can you please comment on, how it is helping in the entry accuracy?

OFA doesn't have a subscription based service right? Like say, if one wants to try it for 1 or 2 months.

Thanks
Focustrader

Use MarketDelta?

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 Focustrader 
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Lornz, yes I am familiar with MD/gomladder. Wanted to know about ofa v5 from user's perspective,
but didn't hear from any ofa users. May be hardly anyone using ofa.

--
Focustrader

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  #65 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
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I posted this on another thread. I had a group of friends that all purchased the system and training. Expensive and worthless is what I gained out of it.

No better no worse than any other discretionarily used software. With some nice bells and whistles though. I sat through the sales presentation and I didn't see it being any different, but my friend gave up after 60 days.

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  #66 (permalink)
 Focustrader 
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Thanks Bluemele for sharing your experience. Is there any other thread,where there has been a discussion on OFA from user's perspective ?

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  #67 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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Focustrader View Post
Thanks Bluemele for sharing your experience. Is there any other thread,where there has been a discussion on OFA from user's perspective ?

--
Focustrader

This should be it, but somebody posted yesterday about it and I mentioned it in more detail.

I believe you should just learn MP if you choose to and then if/when you get good with it then evaluate the OFA. The OFA is not going to make you a great trader in my opinion.

The guy who created the software loses most days... Tell you something?

Try this.

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omaron View Post
Gomi's tools are great indeed, but can it do this too: YouTube - OrderFlowAnalytics's Channel ?

You can fast forward to about minute 9 of the video, fist half is basic trailing and theory.

For me (that is a newbie) looks very interesting and useful to keep you out of trouble (if is not another thing that only works 5% of the time)

One of the keys to using delta/order flow/ @bid vs @ask is that it is different in different markets.

As we discussed on another thread - the use of limit orders and market orders is different across thin and thick markets. The same can be said about spoofing too. Not only that but the volatility changes too, the ES this week was different from the ES a month ago.

So - if you see a tool like this, if it offers a panacea to trade management in ANY market with a single fixed rule system - then it's nonsense.

Take a look at a cumulative delta study of the YM and then one of the ES. On the YM - price goes up, delta goes down for extended periods. The market is effectively driven by people entering on limit orders at these times. On the ES, you very rarely see the same thing.

Tape reading and order book analysis are market specific. OFA may have resolved this somehow and have some sort of self learning system.

The key to trading is making decisions yourself. OFA has some stuff that looks useful to me - the stuff on price clusters is good and I use price clusters myself but I do that with a low timeframe chart. Some of their stuff is of the 'green light buy/red light sell' genre. This offers you absolution - from actually having to analyse the market and make a decision. We all looked for that when we started but I've yet to meet anyone that got profitable that way.

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  #69 (permalink)
 Aragorn 
Salt Lake City, UT
 
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It seems to me that any tool that seeks to identify changes in order flow has to first, as it's foundation, identify areas of S/R. S/R are the only true leading indicators. I visited a trading room a few weeks back and was impressed with their S/R levels (from JS Services). IMHO maybe try to find a vendor that has a reliable track record for identifying S/R areas and then use other, less expensive tools to try to "confirm" if a level is going to hold. Just a suggestion.

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 Init 
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I cant believe I stumbled on this OFA thread.
I just finished a 2 month training with them. Its funny to hear the wide range of views about his technology. I can tell you that after 19 years of position and swing trading, the last year or so, I have decided to be a full time trader. Now i'm in the process of getting my plan together for daytrading around my swing and core positions. With daytrading, I knew I wanted to start at the meat of price action. I chose OFA, It was $2500 for the video library and live trading room for 2 months.(which I just finished)
then its $2500 for the OFA pro package software
Then its $2500 for a few more options and his "trade tracker" technology which is what looks like a slidescale that is tracking buying and selling flows AFTER you are in the trade. The algo parameters identify qualified momentum shifts and automatically takes you out. Nobody in the room trades without it. (for exits only)
You can adjust the parameters in more volitile markets or just click it off.
His volume cluster charts are designed with the same momentum shifts which makes a new bar on every shift. So his charts look nothing like i've ever seen. You see all price action for that bar in the form of one directional monentum segment. I'ts weired but cool. I was still trading my 15sec and 2min charts while using his posted traderoom chart for my entries. This is no lie, Combining orderflow trading with my swing style has been the majic stick for me.
I have not bought the software yet. Thats why its funny I found this because I'm trying see if there is anything similar here. So far my head is spinning with the cool ways you all work together building stuff.
I can say that OFA is pretty expensive but is in no way, a scam
As with any software, If you aren't consistant with your rules and cut losses, no software will help
It will take me a month to look at all the stuff thats here. I'm excited!

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zxxaxz View Post
"Hey, Forget the $1,000 . Forget $500. Would $200 a night make a difference?. If I said you could make $200 a night, after work, $4,000 each month, would that make a difference to your lifestyle?
(Remember, Melanie made $200 in 10 minutes of trading!)"

This kind of stuff annoys the crap out of me.

OK - so Melanie made $200 in 10 minutes. Did Melanie just switch the PC on, look at the markets, enter a trade, win $200 and switch it off again?

Nope. Chances are Melanie spent at least an hour at the screen to make the trade.

WTF is this anyway? Speed trading?

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Init View Post
I cant believe I stumbled on this OFA thread.

Amazing innit?

Just after stumbling on the OFA thread on T2W, too...

Just kidding...

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  #73 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
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Init View Post
.. "trade tracker" technology which is what looks like a slidescale that is tracking buying and selling flows AFTER you are in the trade. ...!

I activate it when I THINK I have a trade.

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 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
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cory View Post
I activate it when I THINK I have a trade.


Hi Cory,

Does that mean you too use the OFA trade tracking system? Can you comment on your experience with this company and or its tools, etc.

Regards

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 cory 
the coin hunter
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exiledgoblin View Post
Hi Cory,

Does that mean you too use the OFA trade tracking system? Can you comment on your experience with this company and or its tools, etc.

Regards

here we also have have software to track bid/ask at the time you turn it on

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  #76 (permalink)
 traderTX 
pittsburgh, pa
 
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Init,
it would sure be nice to hear how you use ofa software, here how you are doing it with it, etc.
i have looked at ofa's utube videos but have not done the free tour of ofa's room.


Init View Post
I cant believe I stumbled on this OFA thread.
I just finished a 2 month training with them. Its funny to hear the wide range of views about his technology. I can tell you that after 19 years of position and swing trading, the last year or so, I have decided to be a full time trader. Now i'm in the process of getting my plan together for daytrading around my swing and core positions. With daytrading, I knew I wanted to start at the meat of price action. I chose OFA, It was $2500 for the video library and live trading room for 2 months.(which I just finished)
then its $2500 for the OFA pro package software
Then its $2500 for a few more options and his "trade tracker" technology which is what looks like a slidescale that is tracking buying and selling flows AFTER you are in the trade. The algo parameters identify qualified momentum shifts and automatically takes you out. Nobody in the room trades without it. (for exits only)
You can adjust the parameters in more volitile markets or just click it off.
His volume cluster charts are designed with the same momentum shifts which makes a new bar on every shift. So his charts look nothing like i've ever seen. You see all price action for that bar in the form of one directional monentum segment. I'ts weired but cool. I was still trading my 15sec and 2min charts while using his posted traderoom chart for my entries. This is no lie, Combining orderflow trading with my swing style has been the majic stick for me.
I have not bought the software yet. Thats why its funny I found this because I'm trying see if there is anything similar here. So far my head is spinning with the cool ways you all work together building stuff.
I can say that OFA is pretty expensive but is in no way, a scam
As with any software, If you aren't consistant with your rules and cut losses, no software will help
It will take me a month to look at all the stuff thats here. I'm excited!


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 pipsquick 
Vancouver, Canada
 
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Init, they are basically using market profile or just using a different name for it, but it all boils down to the same process. Yes that is a lot of money for software, and you should really look around at other market profile (buyers & sellers volume) like a company called market delta. But the bottom line is that it all happens at S & R areas. The cost for Market Delta is a monthly fee which is a fraction of what your paying.





Init View Post
I cant believe I stumbled on this OFA thread.
I just finished a 2 month training with them. Its funny to hear the wide range of views about his technology. I can tell you that after 19 years of position and swing trading, the last year or so, I have decided to be a full time trader. Now i'm in the process of getting my plan together for daytrading around my swing and core positions. With daytrading, I knew I wanted to start at the meat of price action. I chose OFA, It was $2500 for the video library and live trading room for 2 months.(which I just finished)
then its $2500 for the OFA pro package software
Then its $2500 for a few more options and his "trade tracker" technology which is what looks like a slidescale that is tracking buying and selling flows AFTER you are in the trade. The algo parameters identify qualified momentum shifts and automatically takes you out. Nobody in the room trades without it. (for exits only)
You can adjust the parameters in more volitile markets or just click it off.
His volume cluster charts are designed with the same momentum shifts which makes a new bar on every shift. So his charts look nothing like i've ever seen. You see all price action for that bar in the form of one directional monentum segment. I'ts weired but cool. I was still trading my 15sec and 2min charts while using his posted traderoom chart for my entries. This is no lie, Combining orderflow trading with my swing style has been the majic stick for me.
I have not bought the software yet. Thats why its funny I found this because I'm trying see if there is anything similar here. So far my head is spinning with the cool ways you all work together building stuff.
I can say that OFA is pretty expensive but is in no way, a scam
As with any software, If you aren't consistant with your rules and cut losses, no software will help
It will take me a month to look at all the stuff thats here. I'm excited!


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  #78 (permalink)
 Init 
Raleigh North Carolina
 
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traderTX View Post
Init,
it would sure be nice to hear how you use ofa software, here how you are doing it with it, etc.
i have looked at ofa's utube videos but have not done the free tour of ofa's room.

Well, The training videos mainly woke me up to the use of stop runs and how to use them to your advantage. I always thought I had a good overall system. But my big problem about half the time was getting shook out. Once I knew the meaning behind some false breakouts, I would incorporate them into range breakouts in LOW energy ranges. I dont have the software yet, so I would look at his vol cluster charts in the trade room "for example" when we would breakdown from a range and wait for the retracement, the guys in the room knew to the tick where they wanted to enter which was just in front of the cluster (if the cluster qualified) because if the cluster was violated with big prints, then you would be out. (false break) showing that the buyers were aggressive to go across that line. It didnt work all the time, but the important thing I learned was that now I had a Logical defined line in the sand so now I could trade larger because my risk was smaller. The main thing was to look for clusters of clusters on one side of the range and then as it moves away, you know to look for more of a slingshot at about 6-8 ticks from those areas.
Right now I am switching over from zen-fire to IQfeed and I'm trying to use IB's T&S (that i'm not used to) and am down $500 two days in a row. I have to get set up soon with something before I do anymore daytrading.
hope that helps a little

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 Init 
Raleigh North Carolina
 
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pipsquick View Post
Init, they are basically using market profile or just using a different name for it, but it all boils down to the same process. Yes that is a lot of money for software, and you should really look around at other market profile (buyers & sellers volume) like a company called market delta. But the bottom line is that it all happens at S & R areas. The cost for Market Delta is a monthly fee which is a fraction of what your paying.

They dont use market profile, they use vol profile, which is about the same except more important. Vol to me is more important than time.
If I can put it in perspective. They use vol profile is just used as a rough idea to s/r levels, as with any level. Another thing they do that made alot of sense to me was that you can plot all the key levels you want with any metric, Then you let price find it own s/r confirmed by vol. and if your metric lined up thats great(more confidence).
But if it dont, They look around to see why that level is holding. Then your able to find out what the market sees as valuable.
I hate learning anything new when it come to software. I have my list of everything that I want to see on the screens and it will prob take me about 4 months to find the right places to pull it from. But I put it off everyday, now its costing me.
thanks

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 DavidHP 
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Init View Post
Right now I am switching over from zen-fire to IQfeed and I'm trying to use IB's T&S (that i'm not used to) and am down $500 two days in a row. I have to get set up soon with something before I do anymore daytrading.
hope that helps a little

FWIW,
You may not be aware that IB data is not the same as IQ or ZenFire data.

The data is sent in packets and is much different than ZenFire.
I use both and when using IB data on my charts, the moving averages and most other indicators perform differently and must be modified to give similar results to Zenfire.

Although the end of day data matches the Zenfire and other data sources, in realtime it can be a real issue since most indicators plot on the T&S data and IB's is not a reliable source for that without modification of the settings.


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 maxreturn 
Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States
 
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Init View Post
I cant believe I stumbled on this OFA thread.
I just finished a 2 month training with them. Its funny to hear the wide range of views about his technology. I can tell you that after 19 years of position and swing trading, the last year or so, I have decided to be a full time trader. Now i'm in the process of getting my plan together for daytrading around my swing and core positions. With daytrading, I knew I wanted to start at the meat of price action. I chose OFA, It was $2500 for the video library and live trading room for 2 months.(which I just finished)
then its $2500 for the OFA pro package software
Then its $2500 for a few more options and his "trade tracker" technology which is what looks like a slidescale that is tracking buying and selling flows AFTER you are in the trade. The algo parameters identify qualified momentum shifts and automatically takes you out. Nobody in the room trades without it. (for exits only)
You can adjust the parameters in more volitile markets or just click it off.
His volume cluster charts are designed with the same momentum shifts which makes a new bar on every shift. So his charts look nothing like i've ever seen. You see all price action for that bar in the form of one directional monentum segment. I'ts weired but cool. I was still trading my 15sec and 2min charts while using his posted traderoom chart for my entries. This is no lie, Combining orderflow trading with my swing style has been the majic stick for me.
I have not bought the software yet. Thats why its funny I found this because I'm trying see if there is anything similar here. So far my head is spinning with the cool ways you all work together building stuff.
I can say that OFA is pretty expensive but is in no way, a scam
As with any software, If you aren't consistant with your rules and cut losses, no software will help
It will take me a month to look at all the stuff thats here. I'm excited!

Hello Init. Thanks for the review. Have you made the investment in the software yet? When I went through their sales pitch it seemed that the training and software went hand in hand?

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 paganini 
Austin, Texas
 
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Wow, i just stumbled on this thread. Interesting discussion on a topic that no one really understands.

I'm a student of OFA and has been since late September. I took their original training (and I did not do a demo with them before I just jumped in) along with software for the pro version for 2 months. After that, i decided to go all in and become a specialist student (mainly, accessing trade room for one year, after that, $25 per month and unlimited support or questions on anything).

All i can say is that the vast majority of comments on this thread are wrong about OFA.

It is NOT:

1. Market Delta/Market Profile
2. Cumulative Delta
3. Black box system.

Basically, the guy puts up his entire trading system and lets you see his methodology in complete honesty. When DB calls trades, he tells you exactly the price he's looking for BEFORE the price gets there. you won't see any: "Oh, i just made 4 points off this trade at xx.xx" post action. The question is obviously, why he' splacing the trade at that location and that's what part of OFA is all about - knowing where to put in the entry.

The room is really two groups of people: one are a solid bunch who are there mostly every day who have been with DB and orderflow for a long time (one guy was there in 2007 when there wasn't the software, just DB on the speaker explaining his method).

The training itself consists of theory about orderflow, the software, and a comprehensive trading plan/system that covers from consistency of results to money management. It's basically everything except indicators and price action except in the general term of chart structure. It is very comprehensive for the regular trading tactics course.

The specialist course is about having unlimited support and access to trading room for a year (and after that, $25 per month) as well as 35 patterns (price action/chart structure) that you can look for potential trades. I don't think you need the specialist course but I knew going in I was going to stay in the room for at least 8-10 months to learn this stuff, so I might as well get it all).

As far as whether it works - it all depends on how consistent you are and whether you're the type of person who jumps system to system, spending 3-4 months each and never understanding it before you move on, or whether you can dedicate yourself at it. After 5 months, I can honestly say my problems as a futures trader is me, it's not anything or anyone else, but me I have done analysis on my trades massively over the break and realize that most of my losses occur on days when I get emotional and didn't follow risk management plan. If those days were just average loss days instead of emotional/blown out days, I would be profitable. Instead of accepting losses, i kept trading and made the day a lot worse. Knowing when to stop trading is as key as knowing when to trade

But that's the case for ANY system you're using and any method you are using. All I can say is that OFA works for me but I am in it for the long term. I really love the fact that i can limit my risk down to 2-3 ticks (in fact, my average loss in December was 0.30, or more than one tick on the trades. Max loss was 3 ticks, average gain was 3-4 ticks, max gain was 12 ticks). That's one part of OFA that is very valuable - knowing where to enter a trade with low risk.

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 TheSeeker 
Germany
 
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It seems like OFA does use volume traded at price in form of short term volume clusters to see where the majority of stops are or where there is a short term support and resistance area that might hold, or am I wrong ?

This at least could be achieved with most charting programs that use Market Profile, for a much lower price imho, unless OFA has a unique way of looking at volume.

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 TheSeeker 
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paganini View Post
But that's the case for ANY system you're using and any method you are using. All I can say is that OFA works for me but I am in it for the long term. I really love the fact that i can limit my risk down to 2-3 ticks (in fact, my average loss in December was 0.30, or more than one tick on the trades. Max loss was 3 ticks, average gain was 3-4 ticks, max gain was 12 ticks). That's one part of OFA that is very valuable - knowing where to enter a trade with low risk.

These stats sound good, what's your percentage of winning trades ?

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  #85 (permalink)
 paganini 
Austin, Texas
 
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TheSeeker View Post
It seems like OFA does use volume traded at price in form of short term volume clusters to see where the majority of stops are or where there is a short term support and resistance area that might hold, or am I wrong ?

This at least could be achieved with most charting programs that use Market Profile, for a much lower price imho, unless OFA has a unique way of looking at volume.


Nope. Not even close. I have actually trialed market delta at the same time after I bought OFA.

While a very skill trader could POTENTIALLY glean the same data from marketdelta with different charts, OFA is just simpler. I can potentially see myself using market delta and trying to get the same data after using it for 5 months, but it's simply not the same. OFA isn't based on time, nor is it based on ranges. So, POTENTIALLY if you want to open multiple charts, etc. you can get similar information in marketdelta but you have to know what you're doing.

And it's NOT market profile. Not even close.

As far as costs go - are you telling me that $170 a month or whatever MarketDelta charges you is CHEAPER in the long run? OFA's base package if you just want volume clusters is $1500. $2500 has the proprietary stuff and $5000 includes the trade tracker, etc. So, just based on simple volume cluster, $1500 versus $170 or whatever per month. In a year, you'd be better off with OFA.

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  #86 (permalink)
 paganini 
Austin, Texas
 
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TheSeeker View Post
These stats sound good, what's your percentage of winning trades ?


Around 55-60%.

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 TheSeeker 
Germany
 
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paganini View Post
Nope. Not even close. I have actually trialed market delta at the same time after I bought OFA.

While a very skill trader could POTENTIALLY glean the same data from marketdelta with different charts, OFA is just simpler. I can potentially see myself using market delta and trying to get the same data after using it for 5 months, but it's simply not the same. OFA isn't based on time, nor is it based on ranges. So, POTENTIALLY if you want to open multiple charts, etc. you can get similar information in marketdelta but you have to know what you're doing.

And it's NOT market profile. Not even close.

As far as costs go - are you telling me that $170 a month or whatever MarketDelta charges you is CHEAPER in the long run? OFA's base package if you just want volume clusters is $1500. $2500 has the proprietary stuff and $5000 includes the trade tracker, etc. So, just based on simple volume cluster, $1500 versus $170 or whatever per month. In a year, you'd be better off with OFA.


So OFA DOES look at volume clusters, even if in different way ?


You don't need to use MarketDelta if you primarily care for the volume profile and not for the "Delta" btw, if you have Ninjatrader you could use GomiLadder which apparently is free for EliteMembers or at least costs very little, there are several other inexpensive options.

If OFA works for you, then I'm all for it, it is just important to know what OFA is based on. If someone with a good knowledge of Market Profile bought the whole OFA stuff only to find out that it's essentially a repackaged version of MP, he/she would be very pi$$ed.

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  #88 (permalink)
 Ben16JP2 
New York, United States
 
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Hi Paganini,

Does DB really calls trades now and explains why he chooses the location? I was their about a year ago and I never saw that. DB's charts would be up, there would be a pre-market commentary, and maybe a session of explaining OFA in the afternoon, but no live market commentary when I was their, except when Johnathan would fill in for DB.

I might check them out again.



paganini View Post

Basically, the guy puts up his entire trading system and lets you see his methodology in complete honesty. When DB calls trades, he tells you exactly the price he's looking for BEFORE the price gets there. you won't see any: "Oh, i just made 4 points off this trade at xx.xx" post action. The question is obviously, why he' splacing the trade at that location and that's what part of OFA is all about - knowing where to put in the entry.

The room is really two groups of people: one are a solid bunch who are there mostly every day who have been with DB and orderflow for a long time (one guy was there in 2007 when there wasn't the software, just DB on the speaker explaining his method).


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  #89 (permalink)
 exiledgoblin 
Toronto, ON
 
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Quick questions:

1. You said there were two groups in the room but only described one. How would you characterize the second group?
2. Trying to get a fix on your profitability. Avg loss 3 ticks. Avg win 3-4 ticks. Win/Loss ratio 55-60%. Is that about right or did I misread you?



paganini View Post
Wow, i just stumbled on this thread. Interesting discussion on a topic that no one really understands.

I'm a student of OFA and has been since late September. I took their original training (and I did not do a demo with them before I just jumped in) along with software for the pro version for 2 months. After that, i decided to go all in and become a specialist student (mainly, accessing trade room for one year, after that, $25 per month and unlimited support or questions on anything).

All i can say is that the vast majority of comments on this thread are wrong about OFA.

It is NOT:

1. Market Delta/Market Profile
2. Cumulative Delta
3. Black box system.

Basically, the guy puts up his entire trading system and lets you see his methodology in complete honesty. When DB calls trades, he tells you exactly the price he's looking for BEFORE the price gets there. you won't see any: "Oh, i just made 4 points off this trade at xx.xx" post action. The question is obviously, why he' splacing the trade at that location and that's what part of OFA is all about - knowing where to put in the entry.

The room is really two groups of people: one are a solid bunch who are there mostly every day who have been with DB and orderflow for a long time (one guy was there in 2007 when there wasn't the software, just DB on the speaker explaining his method).

The training itself consists of theory about orderflow, the software, and a comprehensive trading plan/system that covers from consistency of results to money management. It's basically everything except indicators and price action except in the general term of chart structure. It is very comprehensive for the regular trading tactics course.

The specialist course is about having unlimited support and access to trading room for a year (and after that, $25 per month) as well as 35 patterns (price action/chart structure) that you can look for potential trades. I don't think you need the specialist course but I knew going in I was going to stay in the room for at least 8-10 months to learn this stuff, so I might as well get it all).

As far as whether it works - it all depends on how consistent you are and whether you're the type of person who jumps system to system, spending 3-4 months each and never understanding it before you move on, or whether you can dedicate yourself at it. After 5 months, I can honestly say my problems as a futures trader is me, it's not anything or anyone else, but me I have done analysis on my trades massively over the break and realize that most of my losses occur on days when I get emotional and didn't follow risk management plan. If those days were just average loss days instead of emotional/blown out days, I would be profitable. Instead of accepting losses, i kept trading and made the day a lot worse. Knowing when to stop trading is as key as knowing when to trade

But that's the case for ANY system you're using and any method you are using. All I can say is that OFA works for me but I am in it for the long term. I really love the fact that i can limit my risk down to 2-3 ticks (in fact, my average loss in December was 0.30, or more than one tick on the trades. Max loss was 3 ticks, average gain was 3-4 ticks, max gain was 12 ticks). That's one part of OFA that is very valuable - knowing where to enter a trade with low risk.


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  #90 (permalink)
 paganini 
Austin, Texas
 
Experience: Beginner
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I don't know what you're talking about - he'll call trades and tell you where he's looking at trading with conditional orders, etc. ANd if you ask him later, he'll tell you why.

But I am not sure why you'll be in the room with them without the software. It makes zero sense for people to do that.




Ben16JP2 View Post
Hi Paganini,

Does DB really calls trades now and explains why he chooses the location? I was their about a year ago and I never saw that. DB's charts would be up, there would be a pre-market commentary, and maybe a session of explaining OFA in the afternoon, but no live market commentary when I was their, except when Johnathan would fill in for DB.

I might check them out again.


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  #91 (permalink)
 paganini 
Austin, Texas
 
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exiledgoblin View Post
Quick questions:

1. You said there were two groups in the room but only described one. How would you characterize the second group?
2. Trying to get a fix on your profitability. Avg loss 3 ticks. Avg win 3-4 ticks. Win/Loss ratio 55-60%. Is that about right or did I misread you?

1. Already said - one group of people who has been with DB for a long time. Second group are new traders, and out of that, there are people who are seriuosly about learning and some who aren't.

2. Read my post again - average loss 1 tick (0.30), average win about 3-4 ticks. Again, that's the way the tracker was tuned to be extremely aggressive since my entries sometimes weren't best - he just wanted to make sure i minimize losses and not necessarily going for gains. The whole process for me right now is just to finetune my entries.


BTW, I am not sure why people keep wanting to say OFA is market profile, it is NOT.

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  #92 (permalink)
 exiledgoblin 
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Thanks! You're right -- I mis-read max loss for avg loss.


paganini View Post
1. Already said - one group of people who has been with DB for a long time. Second group are new traders, and out of that, there are people who are seriuosly about learning and some who aren't.

2. Read my post again - average loss 1 tick (0.30), average win about 3-4 ticks. Again, that's the way the tracker was tuned to be extremely aggressive since my entries sometimes weren't best - he just wanted to make sure i minimize losses and not necessarily going for gains. The whole process for me right now is just to finetune my entries.


BTW, I am not sure why people keep wanting to say OFA is market profile, it is NOT.


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  #93 (permalink)
 Focustrader 
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Paganini,

Glad to know you are doing good with OFA software. Do you mind posting a chart or two on ofa trades you took.

Don't you feel you are doing black box thing,..by using OFA tools? or does DB explain as to what their signal actually means in order-flow?

Thanks
Focustrader

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 paganini 
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Focustrader View Post
Paganini,

Glad to know you are doing good with OFA software. Do you mind posting a chart or two on ofa trades you took.

Don't you feel you are doing black box thing,..by using OFA tools? or does DB explain as to what their signal actually means in order-flow?

Thanks
Focustrader


Most of what OFA has is not proprietary nor black box. Once you go through the training you'll know.

The tracker is proprietary - i have a 11 years working experience as a software engineer so i knew exactly which part of his software is proprietary which isn't.

OFA's plot of the volume chart is unique (and no software does this, but the logic is CLEARLY explained in the training).

Not quite sure what the legal status of rebroadcasting/posting images from the chart is, so I won't post the images. However, one of the trades i took was at 8:40 pm tonight. It was simply a COT change (it shows -300 contracts and changing to +400 which is A LOT in overnight trading). I was originally short at 1303.25 and saw it move against me. Took a small loss at -2 ticks.

Now, the high of the day was 1304.25. And the ES closed near the high. The expectation from everyoe is that it wll drop over night. It should after an extended rise and practically the entire day was a strong move up. I went in on a responsive selling peeriod and saw the COT turning. Naturally i knew that i was wrong and took a quick -2 tick loss.

However, since we're at the day high (loss was 1303.75, high was 1304.25, 2 ticks away) Chances are really good that it will attempt break out.

Why? Not because it will break - it's beceause institutional investors want to get filled with retailer's stops. The chart shows about 500-600 contracts at teh bid/ask between 1303.50 and 1304.25. When the market finally broke the high, it shot up because there is no market depth overnight other than the limit sellers who are eager to short against those stops outs. The prices tick to 1307.50. My original target was 4 ticks but my ATM strategy has a 3 point target (i always manage it myself). Well, it hits it in 3 seconds after the break out. It was literally stops after stops.

Those 500-600 contracts at the bid at 1303.75-1304.25 ends up at 1305.50 and 1305.75 at the ask with ZERO trade at the bid (after hours). The data shows 8:46:14 to 8:46:16 as the trade period for that rotation yep, 3 seconds of stop out and shot up 3 points.


Everyone of those shorts as well as the market stop buy orders got stopped out because the market shoots up 3 points and falls back down through the range and now is below the day's high.

Total gain in 5 minutes: 2.50 points. Check out the spike on your chart at around 8:46 pm central time (big spike up, eh? Yup, institutional investors causing retailers to stop out to take their contracts and sell to their buy out orders). Much harder to do during day time but easily manipulated after hours at night.

Those stop outs? the cluster shows 1.75 ticks (or close to 2 points). Amazing, isn't it? I wonder how many ES traders uses 2 point stops... look around at the systems out there, most are using 2 points as a stop. And everyone who shorted (and remember, I DID SHORT but OFA tells me that i'm about to get nailed, so i took the small 2 tick loss and changed my position). Also, my tracker which was showing a positive 200 contracts for me was showing -140 when i exited. 340 contracts shifted after i entered the market in overnight is a lot of volume.

COT, etc. are not proprietary, it's just a measure of the number of traders in the rotation process. Again, all covered in the training.

The stuff that is proprietary are the tracker software (not the contract counting but the automation stop out and target out levels), the gold market depth alert signals, the volume pivots (algorithmic pivots) genreated by their server which is used as a potential targets area, are proprietary. The rest isn't. However, the way the volume charts are printed is unique - there is no fixed length of volume length (unlike Gomi or Market delta or time based or range bars, it's none of the above). The logic though is clearly explained in the training.

Maybe Big Mike can ask OFA to do a presentation - i know OFA has done several for Mirus and you can see it on their youtube.com channel:

OrderFlowAnalytics's Channel - YouTube

Their stop run one is particularly interesting. We see it all day long on those volume levels and stop out levels.

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 Focustrader 
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Thanks Paganini for describing the details of your trade.

I already saw their youtube videos/mirus presentation,but was more interested to know how traders were using it and from user's perspective. Regarding posting charts, I think it should be fine, unless ofa has something in their user agreement.

Thanks
Focustrader

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 gregsutt 
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paganini View Post
1. Already said - one group of people who has been with DB for a long time. Second group are new traders, and out of that, there are people who are seriuosly about learning and some who aren't.

2. Read my post again - average loss 1 tick (0.30), average win about 3-4 ticks. Again, that's the way the tracker was tuned to be extremely aggressive since my entries sometimes weren't best - he just wanted to make sure i minimize losses and not necessarily going for gains. The whole process for me right now is just to finetune my entries.


BTW, I am not sure why people keep wanting to say OFA is market profile, it is NOT.

Why didn't you buy the Synthetic Order Routing tool from OFA?

Wouldn't the conditional OFA orders help you to fine tune your entries?

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paganini View Post
1. Already said - one group of people who has been with DB for a long time. Second group are new traders, and out of that, there are people who are seriuosly about learning and some who aren't.

2. Read my post again - average loss 1 tick (0.30), average win about 3-4 ticks. Again, that's the way the tracker was tuned to be extremely aggressive since my entries sometimes weren't best - he just wanted to make sure i minimize losses and not necessarily going for gains. The whole process for me right now is just to finetune my entries.


BTW, I am not sure why people keep wanting to say OFA is market profile, it is NOT.

Paganini - do you enter using limit orders?

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Reason I asked that question - my opinion is that an average loss size of 1 lot is impossible.

If you take all of your losses and average them out, you can't have a lower stop than 1 tick. This means max stop is also 1 tick. That's the pedant in me talking...

The trader in me thinks about this:



There are always 2 prices in the market. Hence a 1 tick stop is nonsense.

Market Orders
If you took the above example, we have 1165 bid, 1165.25 offered. If you sold at market you would sell at 1165. Once sold, your 1 tick stop loss would be at 1165.25, the current inside offer. So - at this point you are not only betting that the market will move down but you are also betting that this will occur before anyone puts in a buy market order. The moment that just a 1 lot market buy order comes in from Joe Retail you will stop out.

Nobody trades like that. Nobody can trade with enough accuracy that they know the price will tick down before someone else puts a buy market order in UNLESS their order is large enough to tick the marked down through the inside bid. In this case that would be 61 contracts or more. Even then you also have to know that no-one will add to your bid.

Limit Orders
Let's say you want to sell with a limit order. This time you want to join the limit order at 1165.25. There are 17 contracts ahead of you. So - your entry price would be 1165.25 and your stop 1165.50.

So - you put in your limit order. Let's say 5 contracts. Now you need 22 buy market orders to hit the offer and get you filled. If there are 23 market orders, then you will get filled and then price will tick up, 1165.50 will trade and you will stop out.

17 buy market orders - you don't get filled
22 buy market orders - you get a full fill
23 buy market orders - you get filled and stopped out

In either case, the 1 lot stop is a ludicrous proposition and needs you to not only get direction right but to actually know the future to an impossible degree.

I can't see how anyone that says they an average 1 tick stop is actually trading live. It simply can't happen. To do it, you actually need your stop placed as soon as your fill - if you don't do that then you are going to be losing 2+ ticks and your average will be more than 1 tick...

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 TimeTrade 
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..."However, the way the volume charts are printed is unique - there is no fixed length of volume length (unlike Gomi or Market delta or time based or range bars, it's none of the above). The logic though is clearly explained in the training."...


good news one -> the logic of the OFA chart print is this:
-> it's a "ReversalChart",
-> this say the end of a bar is defined as a Reversal (OFA use for ES 4Ticks)
-> the start and the Direction of ReversalCheck is Volume triggered (this give the minimum len of bar)
-> the end is a Bid/Ask/Price triggered correction of "n" Ticks (4 for ES) => the absolute len of bar is variable
-> the result is exact the same and full comperable to all OFA videos
-> this logic work under NT7 as simple BarType, or with no many work for "gomi" data


good news two -> the OFA TradeTracker logic is a up to this time prop VolaLogic plus the open NT7 prometheus project (i hope its is now reactivated )
- the vola logic for the stop line work now nearly comperable to OFAv5
- the concept of entry based start any calculations is good
- the concept of the dynamic vola+volume+Delta based stop management is the "only one" special feature of OFAv5 (old OFAv4 has a simple logic without additional adjustable parameters for different symbols/market conditions/entry types)
- as external solution is the OFA logic with a good longtime Level1 historical datafeed(DTN IQfeed) now 97% exact rebuilded
- i hope for more actual new OFAv5 videos or webinars, this help to adjust the vola part of "StopLine"
- a internal NT7 version as port from Delphi is a hard work, i hope the new "prometheus" source give a good base for add the OFA stop logic to this
- for better comperable replays, i hope gomi make a converter from long time DTN-IQfeed Level1 download to the GomCD file format, this is the better way with backfill in compare to the actual "Recorder" solution without backfill


=> DTN-Backfill + gomi's delta data + ReversalBartype + PrometheusGauge + "VolaRule" = a free/open OFA for NT7

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 BeachTrader 
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DionysusToast,

I believe paganini uses the Trade Tracker. I don't have it, but my understanding is that the tracker manages the stop for you based on the current order flow. So the ES may go up 1 tick, but if the order flow becomes negative the tracker may take you out at minus 1 tick in order to prevent a potential larger stop out. The stop doesn't start at minus 1 tick which as you say, wouldn't make sense.

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