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Topstep didn't pay


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Topstep didn't pay

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  #21 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Howard Roark View Post
I respectfully disagree, Bob, as simulator trading on a live account is not a speculative claim with multiple or most of these companies, i.e., OneUp, E2T (LivesSim accounts) and LeeLoo.

LeeLoo says it like this on their FAQ:



I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me one bit if TST does the same. I have some other information on this, but as it's speculative I'll keep it to myself and rather post it later tonight if I can verify it.

Fair enough. Speaking for myself, I have thought for a long time that some of the procedures of some companies were hard to understand, but if they are up-front with stating them, then it's their business and their customer's, not any of mine.

I am willing to take TST's word for it when they lay out their procedures, at least until proven otherwise.

I realize you are making a general point about these firms as a whole, but this particular thread is focused on TopStep in particular, and specifically on one situation where a customer thinks she was not dealt with appropriately. I was just trying to keep the focus more on where it started.

Threads tend to broaden out, which is not necessarily bad. Even so, if we can keep the focus on TopStep, it would be best.

Bob.

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  #22 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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Howard Roark View Post
However, there's a conflict of interest between you and the company as many of these companies will initially have you trading on a simulator even after you go live. Some of the companies (E2T, OneUp, LeeLoo) are upfront about this while others claim it's a funded account once you're live, but there's actually a guy who's worked with a few of these companies who claim that NONE of these companies let you trade real money. I can't comment on this as it's just a claim, but wouldn't be surprised.

But anybody with basic trading experience knows that if you place an order in a real market the orderbook will increase on the DOM, whereas a sim order won't. Very easy to check on a slow market out of hours by placing an order a few levels off the inside bid or offer. Topstep has just celebrated their ninth birthday, I have never seen a substantiated claim that live traders are actually on sim, just the occasional hearsay post of 'I'm not personally saying it's a scam but I believe I heard somebody else say that once and I am not going to offer any proof, just make baseless insinuations'. With Topstep the trader is clearly given the choice on completion of Step2 as to whether they choose the sim Pro Account option initially, moving to Premium Funded once they reach the $5k maximum balance, or choose the Funded Account straight away.


Howard Roark View Post
So, no big deal, right? As long as you're paid?

Well, it IS a big deal considering the fact that if you earn $10K of profits it's not actual profits which the company can pay you and take a cut off. It's 100% an expense from them as it's simulator profits and they have to pay you with their own cash.

The implication of this is that YOU WIN => THEY LOSE.

But they brought in the Pro sim account option versus the Funded Account option and made it attractive enough originally to be a no-brainer choice. I assume that is because most traders lose so business wise it is financially better to have the majority losing blowing out their accounts on sim and the minority that do reach the $5k maximum Pro Account balance get that balance put in to Premium Funded Account at Topstep's expense, but as that will be more than offset by the money not lost by the Pro Account failures, they are benefiting from the Pro Account.


Howard Roark View Post
Following that the logical conclusion is that they have zero interest in you winning and will do their best to make sure that's not going to happen.

Weren't you funded with them recently? I guess it didn't pan out well?

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  #23 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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matthew28 View Post
But they brought in the Pro sim account option versus the Funded Account option and made it attractive enough originally to be a no-brainer choice. I assume that is because most traders lose so business wise it is financially better to have the majority losing blowing out their accounts on sim and the minority that do reach the $5k maximum Pro Account balance get that balance put in to Premium Funded Account at Topstep's expense, but as that will be more than offset by the money not lost by the Pro Account failures, they are benefiting from the Pro Account.

I think this is the exact motive for the Pro account: before it, I think traders would blow up their live account and TS would be holding the bag for the losses. Giving them a "Pro" account, where they can blow it up and not cost any real money probably was a better business decision even though, if the trader didn't blow it, TS would have to let them have the $5,000 as actual cash. (It looks like they have changed this "actual cash" part now, although I'm not following things with them that closely. But this is their business also, so long as it is disclosed.)

In these discussions about this category of firms, I think that traders in general, at least new ones, vastly over-value their personal ability to make money, and it comes as a shock that they go into these programs and lose. So it is not unusual to blame it on the program and the rules. Realistically, I think most traders lose as they start out, and so do most traders who try these companies. It's just trading reality.

That said, I don't want to be either pro or against any of them, so long as they disclose fully, unless they don't do as they say. That would be bad.

I also think new traders would be better served by trading the micro contracts with very small contract size (as in, one ) and just get the experience. Then try for funding once they know they are good. But that's another question too, and I'm getting a little off-topic as well.

Bob.

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  #24 (permalink)
 SBtrader82 
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bobwest View Post
You certainly have a right to believe anything you like about any of these companies and about their motives and strategies, but this is a very strong thing to repeat without substantiation, citing "a guy," unnamed, who basically is saying that "none" of them are actually doing what they say they do.



I realize you qualify your post by saying "it's just a claim," but it's one you are repeating. Again, you have a right to express your views, but is this particular thing something more than just something that was said on the internet, that source of totally reliable information?



Bob.

I can tell you for sure that, once you get funded the trades are real. You are not sim trading.
I got funded by topstep in the past and I was also trading my own personal account. I placed some limit orders with topstep and I checked the ladder on my personal account.
I checked the ladder whenever I added or removed the limit order with topstep, and you could see the quantities changing accordingly. So once you get funded the trading is real. Trust me.

I used dorman with denali on my real account and rithmic with topstep.


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  #25 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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SBtrader82 View Post
I can tell you for sure that, once you get funded the trades are real. You are not sim trading.
I got funded by topstep in the past and I was also trading my own personal account. I placed some limit orders with topstep and I checked the ladder on my personal account.
I checked the ladder whenever I added or removed the limit order with topstep, and you could see the quantities changing accordingly. So once you get funded the trading is real. Trust me.

I used dorman with denali on my real account and rithmic with topstep.


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I think this does settle the issue of whether the TopStep funded account is a real, live account, and it's good to have it settled, as far as TopStep is concerned.

This is a direction the thread went, more of less naturally, but it didn't start out being about what "all" these firms do in a general sense, nor whether the trades are real or sim.

We would get much closer to being back on topic if those concerns were addressed elsewhere, and this thread went back to the @TraderAnna issue it started with. I've contributed a little to the thread drift also, but I'll try to stop now, too.

Thanks, folks.

Bob.

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  #26 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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bobwest View Post
I think this does settle the issue of whether the TopStep funded account is a real, live account, and it's good to have it settled, as far as TopStep is concerned.

Could anybody with half a brain and who understands that CME products are exchange traded and therefore everybody sees the same orderbook, and understands what that means regarding order placement, actually believe that a company could tell somebody they are trading in the real market but instead have them on sim without lots of people being able to tell that they aren't, not recognise the reputational damage for the company that would cause after being quickly caught lying.



bobwest View Post
I also think new traders would be better served by trading the micro contracts with very small contract size (as in, one ) and just get the experience. Then try for funding once they know they are good. But that's another question too, and I'm getting a little off-topic as well.

Or try a Micro Swing Trading Combine for $110/month which is still probably less than most people can lose with their own account on Micros.

But........back to original premise of the thread, perhaps summed up as: Topstep changed the rules while the trader was in the Pro Account. Sure they can have whatever rules they want for their company but it sucks that they are suddenly applied retrospectively to accounts that were active and therefore looks bad when a trader is denied funding and the $5k opening balance in a Premium Funded Account that they would have received before the rule change, had they completed Step1 and Step2 and the Pro Account earlier, is now denied.
They are offered another go in the Pro Account to repeat what they thought they had just completed successfully but are wondering whether it is a waste of time when the company can change the rules at any time it wishes and apply them retrospectively to fail them again.

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  #27 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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matthew28 View Post
But........back to original premise of the thread, perhaps summed up as: Topstep changed the rules while the trader was in the Pro Account. Sure they can have whatever rules they want for their company but it sucks that they are suddenly applied retrospectively to accounts that were active and therefore looks bad when a trader is denied funding and the $5k opening balance in a Premium Funded Account that they would have received before the rule change, had they completed Step1 and Step2 and the Pro Account earlier, is now denied.
They are offered another go in the Pro Account to repeat what they thought they had just completed successfully but are wondering whether it is a waste of time when the company can change the rules at any time it wishes and apply them retrospectively to fail them again.

That's the issue.

At this point, I guess we await @Topstep.

I hope that whoever they have monitoring the email "mention" notices that go out when they are tagged with an "@" here escalates the issue once they see the flood of mentions.

If they do, I hope the whole thread gets read and some thinking is done about whether this is an issue they want to leave hanging this way. (This is still a Sunday, so there might be some time lag before a reply.)

I trust there will be a conclusion soon and all can move on, however they think they should.

Bob.

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  #28 (permalink)
TraderAnna
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SBtrader82 View Post
I really hope topStep will join the thread and clarify this. It is quite scary to think that we might be spending energy in a program that might not pay at the end.
I am a strong believer in the honesty of Topstep, so I would really like to receive some clarification.


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Wait. Do they really watch these threads? I don't want any conflict with them. Now I think maybe is should delete this. I just thought I can talk with someone in similar situation. Maybe some recommendations. Where can I delete or rename threads? I shouldn't be so direct with the company name. I don't want to harm anyone, I am not that kind, it just feels bad because it was confirmed 3 times.

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  #29 (permalink)
Howard Roark
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matthew28 View Post
But anybody with basic trading experience knows that if you place an order in a real market the orderbook will increase on the DOM, whereas a sim order won't. Very easy to check on a slow market out of hours by placing an order a few levels off the inside bid or offer. Topstep has just celebrated their ninth birthday, I have never seen a substantiated claim that live traders are actually on sim, just the occasional hearsay post of 'I'm not personally saying it's a scam but I believe I heard somebody else say that once and I am not going to offer any proof, just make baseless insinuations'. With Topstep the trader is clearly given the choice on completion of Step2 as to whether they choose the sim Pro Account option initially, moving to Premium Funded once they reach the $5k maximum balance, or choose the Funded Account straight away.

Did you do that test yourself since you suggest it?

I don't hold a strong opinion with regards to TopStep. I always figured they actually had their traders on real accounts once live. But knowing what I now know and understanding the true nature of this business model I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if what that guy said is true.



Quoting 
But they brought in the Pro sim account option versus the Funded Account option and made it attractive enough originally to be a no-brainer choice. I assume that is because most traders lose so business wise it is financially better to have the majority losing blowing out their accounts on sim and the minority that do reach the $5k maximum Pro Account balance get that balance put in to Premium Funded Account at Topstep's expense, but as that will be more than offset by the money not lost by the Pro Account failures, they are benefiting from the Pro Account.

That's the business model right there.


matthew28 View Post
Weren't you funded with them recently? I guess it didn't pan out well?

That was with MES / OneUp. You can read about it here:



Note that I was skeptical towards these programs prior to making that thread. I'm not a sore loser. If I thought these programs were a good opportunity for a trader I would take another shot in a heartbeat.

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 pipstalker 
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This may not be specifically the advice you are after, but I've read through all the posts, and perhaps you are pretty desperate to be successful at your trading?

This can lead you into a lot of difficult situations. After 22 years of experience in the trading 'environment', I would just respectfully suggest you take extreme care with all of your accounts, your capital, who you are trading with, who you pay to learn from, the "everything" of this journey.

Life is not fair, so do not expect to be treated fairly at all times, and be very critical with your thinking. The times I have lost the most money, it's been totally my fault... too much enthusiasm, not enough research, chasing big profits, getting involved with the wrong businesses, etc. who sell you their Road to Wealth story.

If you are not successful in your current home/country situation, why would you even contemplate an alternative? You can leave your country, but you will take your trading problems & lack of experience with you.

And TraderAnna, the three months that you mentioned, what else would you have been doing with that time? Learning, educating yourself, gaining experience? The choice is yours... Grow big, but do it carefully and slowly. Only you care about your money and wellbeing. Good luck with your journey.

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