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Topstep didn't pay


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Topstep didn't pay

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  #11 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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TraderAnna View Post
You are right. Unfortunately there is no way I can relocate. The best I did came up with is to open my own account and not try any more online firms.

For many traders, the best idea is to put an amount into a brokerage account that they are willing to lose if they have to, and trade very small size (1 contract is a suitably small position) in the micro contracts.

Why? If you have not traded actual live money before, the experience can be totally different from anything in sim. Most new traders read statements like this and seem to not believe them, but discovering the difference is a part of trading.

Once a trader can manage small positions successfully, which not all can, then using more money and perhaps going to the larger mini contracts will make sense. The steps to go up in the amount of money involved should not be something that the trader expects to happen rapidly.

Every day, traders who have been around the block write something like this to caution newer traders, and every day it is ignored.

If you can do well on your own, I think that one of these firms may be a good way to increase the size that you can trade with, assuming that their rules fit your own style. People all the time object to the various firms' rules, and attribute an amazing set of intentions behind the rules, generally having to do with wanting to make traders fail. The fact is that everyone has their rules and/or their preferences, and if yours do not align with theirs, then don't bother trying to fit into them. If they are a good fit, then you may want to give them a try.

So this perspective turns around the one that we see most often about these firms: I think that once a trader is mature and successful in his or her trading, but may need funding, then it can be a good idea to try one of them. I think that if one is starting out, using your own money in small positions while trading only the micro contracts is a better way to learn. Why? Because no matter how good you are in sim, you should expect the psychological stresses of putting your own money at risk to give you a totally different experience, usually not a profitable one. Managing these stresses is completely different from managing the purely intellectual problems that are encountered in sim, where success or failure doesn't actually matter much, because there is no actual money involved.

So, while I do not think anyone should simply follow another's advice on trading, I will give you this advice to at least consider.

If you can trade on your own splendidly with a small amount, and you want to increase your trading capital by using someone else's money, then perhaps it would make sense to give them a try. Until then, I suggest small steps with limited risk, but with actual live funds in the real market. If sufficient money is a problem right now, then save up until it is not, and continue with sim, trying to get as much as you can out of it, without losing sight of the fact that it is not the real game of trading. You can only learn the real game by playing the real game, and it is different from any simulation. Do not overestimate how well you can do in real trading until you have given it a good try, which is why I suggest starting small, with the small micro contracts first.

I know that many who read this will assume that this caution about one's own trading ability does not apply to them, but it does.

Good luck. Everyone finds their own way, which sometimes is trading, and sometimes is not. If it is for you, I certainly wish you success in it.

Bob.

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-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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  #12 (permalink)
 GFIs1 
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I am wondering why @Topstep is not responding here with a short statement in this thread.

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  #13 (permalink)
Howard Roark
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Hi, Anna,

What you and others who consider these programs need to keep in mind is that these companies have zero interest in actually funding, backing and eventually paying out a trader. That's not to say that you can't pass the evaluation and eventually take some money out of one such company. It is definitely possible.

However, there's a conflict of interest between you and the company as many of these companies will initially have you trading on a simulator even after you go live. Some of the companies (E2T, OneUp, LeeLoo) are upfront about this while others claim it's a funded account once you're live, but there's actually a guy who's worked with a few of these companies who claim that NONE of these companies let you trade real money. I can't comment on this as it's just a claim, but wouldn't be surprised.

So, no big deal, right? As long as you're paid?

Well, it IS a big deal considering the fact that if you earn $10K of profits it's not actual profits which the company can pay you and take a cut off. It's 100% an expense from them as it's simulator profits and they have to pay you with their own cash.

The implication of this is that YOU WIN => THEY LOSE.

Following that the logical conclusion is that they have zero interest in you winning and will do their best to make sure that's not going to happen. That's also why some of these companies (E2T, OneUp) have different rules for the try-out and other rules for the live account (much harder). TopStep even made a new rule recently about how you can't withdraw all your profits at once.

You see why? They don't mind you succeeding a try-out and paying subscription fees, but they don't want you to succeed live as they'd have to pay you out of their own pockets.

These companies may serve a purpose as a middle ground between a simulator account and a live account, i.e., a bit more serious practice for an aspiring trader with the possibillity of a pay-out. Just don't be confused and think these companies want to FUND a trader. They want your subscription fees. That's all.

Good luck.

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 bobwest 
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GFIs1 View Post
I am wondering why @Topstep is not responding here with a short statement in this thread.

GFIs1

Because the thread was started on Saturday, and now it's Sunday morning?

Bob.

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 SBtrader82 
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I really hope topStep will join the thread and clarify this. It is quite scary to think that we might be spending energy in a program that might not pay at the end.
I am a strong believer in the honesty of Topstep, so I would really like to receive some clarification.


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  #16 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Howard Roark View Post
there's actually a guy who's worked with a few of these companies who claim that NONE of these companies let you trade real money. I can't comment on this as it's just a claim, but wouldn't be surprised.

You certainly have a right to believe anything you like about any of these companies and about their motives and strategies, but this is a very strong thing to repeat without substantiation, citing "a guy," unnamed, who basically is saying that "none" of them are actually doing what they say they do.

I realize you qualify your post by saying "it's just a claim," but it's one you are repeating. Again, you have a right to express your views, but is this particular thing something more than just something that was said on the internet, that source of totally reliable information?

Bob.

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Howard Roark
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bobwest View Post
You certainly have a right to believe anything you like about any of these companies and about their motives and strategies, but this is a very strong thing to repeat without substantiation, citing "a guy," unnamed, who basically is saying that "none" of them are actually doing what they say they do.

I realize you qualify your post by saying "it's just a claim," but it's one you are repeating. Again, you have a right to express your views, but is this particular thing something more than just something that was said on the internet, that source of totally reliable information?

Bob.

I respectfully disagree, Bob, as simulator trading on a live account is not a speculative claim with multiple or most of these companies, i.e., OneUp, E2T (LivesSim accounts) and LeeLoo.

LeeLoo says it like this on their FAQ:



I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me one bit if TST does the same. I have some other information on this, but as it's speculative I'll keep it to myself and rather post it later tonight if I can verify it.

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Howard Roark
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SBtrader82 View Post
I really hope topStep will join the thread and clarify this. It is quite scary to think that we might be spending energy in a program that might not pay at the end.
I am a strong believer in the honesty of Topstep, so I would really like to receive some clarification.

I really hope so, too. TopStep's been around forever and does strike me as the most serious of these firms, BUT, it doesn't change my opinion of them like the rest of the companies like I stated earlier. I have zero reason or evidence to believe they actually want to fund or back a trader. Just see the new profit withdrawal rules. If you're finally making money after getting funded they're making it difficult for you to take it out. Just increasing the chances that you'll blow up before you'll able to pull some money out of them.

Also, as soon as you withdraw your OWN profits - there's no backing. You're always risking your own profits, never the firms. At no point will they give you a big pay day and say that you'll continue to trade FIRM capital as you're such a good trader.

If anyone knows a trader who's become a big trader and is actually backed by these companies, please let me know. I'd be surprised to hear it.

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 bobwest 
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SBtrader82 View Post
I really hope topStep will join the thread and clarify this. It is quite scary to think that we might be spending energy in a program that might not pay at the end.
I am a strong believer in the honesty of Topstep, so I would really like to receive some clarification.

I absolutely agree, and if it hasn't been made clear so far, I think this is a matter @Topstep should take very seriously. A company only has their good name, ultimately, and if it is tarnished they have nothing.

So far, it looks as though a rule change was made and applied retroactively to a situation that existed before the change, and that was not in violation of any rule at the time. @Topstep may have their reasons for the rule, and for applying it as they did, but it is troubling that they did it so far after the fact, at least according to the emails that have been furnished. Pretty much all the comments so far have reflected a concern about how it was applied after the rule change to a situation from before the change was made.

If @Topstep disputes the facts, or their interpretation, they can do so.

Let me repeat the invitation to @Topstep to come in and make clear to members what their stance is on this, and to answer these concerns.

If @Topstep does not consider this as at least a major PR flub, they may want to rethink it. Potential and actual customers want to know what they can count on, and to know that the terms will not be changed in mid-stream and applied retroactively to them. @SBtrader82, quoted above, has been a strong supporter of TopStep on this forum and has been funded by them, and his concerns should not be taken lightly, as representative of how this is perceived.

Aside from this question, there is a simple fairness question as it was applied here.

If the company concludes, on reflection, that this was a mistake, it would not be a terrible thing to say so. Everyone makes mistakes, and what you do about them is what matters. If they want to stand by it, they should explain why, in these particular circumstances, so that traders can understand and perhaps make informed decisions based on this.

This is actually a big deal, @Topstep.

Bob.

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 bobwest 
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GFIs1 View Post
I am wondering why @Topstep is not responding here with a short statement in this thread.

GFIs1


bobwest View Post
Because the thread was started on Saturday, and now it's Sunday morning?

Bob.

Edit: and let me add that I agree that they should respond here, once they have had a chance to look this thread over. See my later post on the subject.

Bob.

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