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Daytrading.Coach Review

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  #1 (permalink)
Calgary
 
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Hello,

Has anyone heard about this vendor - https://daytrading.coach/

The vendor is based in Alberta, Canada. To me it appears that they are reselling indicators packaged with the education course. Just wanted to check if anyone on this forum has come across this vendor or something similar.

Attached are some screenshots from their website. There software is called Golden Falcon Trading Pro. Its a bunch of customized indicators for NT8. They claim that their indicators combined with Elliot Wave Theory and Fibonacci analysis is more that 80% profitable.

Appreciate it if any one can give some feedback.

Cheers!!




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aprilfool View Post
Hello,

Has anyone heard about this vendor - https://daytrading.coach/

The vendor is based in Alberta, Canada. To me it appears that they are reselling indicators packaged with the education course. Just wanted to check if anyone on this forum has come across this vendor or something similar.

Attached are some screenshots from their website. There software is called Golden Falcon Trading Pro. Its a bunch of customized indicators for NT8. They claim that their indicators combined with Elliot Wave Theory and Fibonacci analysis is more that 80% profitable.

Appreciate it if any one can give some feedback.

Cheers!!




Oh boy oh boy oh boy, I was waiting for somebody to post this. I did a deep dive on these guys because a) they are local and b) at least 3 people I know were going to shell out $13k for their "training''.

They have repackaged multiple indicators that @Fat Tails created for NT7 and made it a "system" as well as a few others. I essentially deconstructed their entire package from their charts. I will need @bobwest and @Big Mike to give me the go ahead to post. As far I know there is no digital copyright to what they are selling because these are literally repackaged indicators that I reversed engineered visually.

Whatever happens, watch for vendor shills to start coming out of the woodwork in their defence. In 10, 9, 8.....

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  #3 (permalink)
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Until I post the rundown of their indicators, here is a breakdown of what I know about these guys.

They (Jovan) originally started out as ''FamilyFirstDynasty'' based out of 30, North Gould St, Ste 2164 in Wyoming. That address however is a front because lots of businesses are registered to that address, so perhaps this is a law / accountant practice that they used and registered at.

For as long as it remains up their original website is here https://www.familyfirstdynasty.com/ but with no links on that front page to navigate further.

It was here they began to put together a trading system and pumping it to the public. They initially started out in NT7.

They then registered this business in Canada as Family First Dynasty Holdings Inc. First in Victoria BC and then a daughter company registered in Alberta. The registered address is 300-14505 Bannister Rd SE, Calgary AB T2X 3J3 - which is a business named McLeod Law. So, again no real address to speak of.

https://beta.canadasbusinessregistries.ca/search/results?search=%7BFamily%20First%20Dynasty%20Holdings%20Inc.%7D&status=Active

This is all from the mind of Jovan who runs this now out of Calgary and charges $13k CAD for the privilege.

For $500.00 or less you can rebuild their indicator suite with over the counter readily available indicators for sale to the general public. Don't for one minute think their is anything special or proprietary about what they are doing.

Nothing illegal or underhand in any of the above, but there is some information about coach Jovan that is pretty telling about his ethics. I just need a second source of confirmation before I post that.

The TrustPilot reviews are Pay to Play so you can't trust any of those either.

https://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/trust-pilot-the-mecca-of-fraudulent-trading-reviews/

I have told 3 people now to turn the other way. Their offer of guaranteed success is littered with ''get our clauses'' for them, so take that with a pinch of salt.






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  #4 (permalink)
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Thanks for posting the business registrations. After my extensive google search I did reach a conclusion that there was some link between family first dynasty and DTC. Its good to have confirmation.

On a side note Earn2trade is based in the same building as family first dynasty. Earn2trade address on their website is - 30 N Gould St STE 4000, Sheridan, WY 82801. Looks like that building is hub for trading company.

I hope you will able post the details for the indicators.

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JonnyBoy View Post
Hi - perhaps you might want to delete/move your post to a thread pertaining to that particular vendor. I am not seeing the ''link'' to the OP and this doesn't appear to be linked to DTC.

Sorry -so its one post per vendor - got it

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neil View Post
Sorry -so its one post per vendor - got it

Yes, actually one thread per vendor, but you understood correctly.

This lets other people chime in on the same vendor, and it's altogether in one topic.

It's also a good idea to do a Search first (in the Search box in the upper right corner of every page), to make sure you don't open a duplicate thread. (I did check the vendor you mention, and there are no existing threads, so a new one can be opened -- which I see you have done.)

It all just takes some getting used to. You're getting the hang of it.

Bob.

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bobwest View Post
Yes, actually one thread per vendor, but you understood correctly.

This lets other people chime in on the same vendor, and it's altogether in one topic.

It's also a good idea to do a Search first (in the Search box in the upper right corner of every page), to make sure you don't open a duplicate thread. (I did check the vendor you mention, and there are no existing threads, so a new one can be opened -- which I see you have done.)

It all just takes some getting used to. You're getting the hang of it.

Bob.

Thanks Bob. Great site and still working my way around it. The only site I found relating to Futures traders, both beginner and more experienced :-)

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Jovan Faking Live Trades? You decide

The Day Trading Coach YouTube channel used to be loaded with videos of Jovan's pulling thousands of dollars out of the RTY. He claimed he was trading LIVE from a LIVE account. The problem is - he wasn't trading from a LIVE account. If you thought he was, it appears you were duped.

Now before I move on to the evidence, you might notice that nearly all the videos from the Day Trading Coach YouTube have now been pulled. Only a handful remain. This is very likely (I don't know for certain) because I (through a 3rd party) already called him out on it. He knows he was faking it when confronted with the evidence below and was unable to provide brokerage statements of these profitable trades.

Here is a remnant from a Bing search. See the video thumbnail in the middle? He was posting videos daily claiming he was making thousands of dollars. However, these were SIM dollars people. This was NOT REAL MONEY.



Why am I presenting him as fake trading? Well, (apart from never getting slippage when trading the RTY with 30+contracts) the snapshots below were from some of the videos Jovan historically posted on YouTube (now removed). Notice something about those limit orders? The market depth does not include his profit target orders. In other words, he was trading in SIM. If he was trading from a LIVE account, the market depth would be inclusive of those profit target orders as resting ones.

The SIM colour background looks like a real account ''colour'' but this is an easy switch in NinjaTrader itself. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Now for some background, it is possible to hide a stop market or stop limit order from the market upon using Simulated Stop orders in NinjaTrader. However, this feature can only be used with stop market and stop limit orders. You can't use it with limit orders. See the link below for more information.

https://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/?simulated_stop_orders.htm

On the counter, not all active orders reside at the exchange as resting orders. See the link below for more information.

https://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/?where_do_your_orders_reside_.htm

However, the CME exchange supports limit orders so if he was truly trading the RTY the market depth would be reflected in his active profit target orders.

So, for people finding this thread (hopefully by Google or Bing search) be very careful and do your due diligence when it comes to Day Trading Coach. I am sure Jovan and team will come up with some excuse to tell you or try and change the narrative somehow. But, what I present below was confirmed by my broker and NinjaTrader to be a correct assumption.

In the handful of videos that still remain, the number of contracts traded are very small so it is very difficult to tell if it's real trading or SIM trading. So, my advice is to REQUEST BROKERAGE STATEMENTS for several trades across a time period to be sure. They may even try to blind you with techno babble about trading, but if all of this was real why pull the videos?




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  #10 (permalink)
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@JonnyBoy - Thanks for detailed response.

I have been following DTC from the beginning of 2020. I agree that youtube several videos have been removed, now only 4 remain which are not posted by Jovan. I also need to confess that I have been to "The Ranch". Initially, I thought that Jovan is posting all these videos and willing to have people over at his dwelling to showcase his methods, so there must be something is his system. Also, I'm a very curious person so had to go check it out. It was like any other trading seminar for the most part, they talked about there system, mindset, etc.... but there were several flags, so I decided to stay away from DTC.

I was still interested in there system and was trying to recreate their charts. Are you able to post the details of the indicator's?

Really appreciate your response. I will for sure stay away from DTC.

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  #11 (permalink)
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aprilfool View Post
@JonnyBoy - Thanks for detailed response.

I have been following DTC from the beginning of 2020. I agree that youtube several videos have been removed, now only 4 remain which are not posted by Jovan. I also need to confess that I have been to "The Ranch". Initially, I thought that Jovan is posting all these videos and willing to have people over at his dwelling to showcase his methods, so there must be something is his system. Also, I'm a very curious person so had to go check it out. It was like any other trading seminar for the most part, they talked about there system, mindset, etc.... but there were several flags, so I decided to stay away from DTC.

I was still interested in there system and was trying to recreate their charts. Are you able to post the details of the indicator's?

Really appreciate your response. I will for sure stay away from DTC.

Day Trading Coach - Indicators

As I said in a prior post for some of the indicators, it appears that Jovan / Day Trading Coach used @Fat Tails FREE indicators via FIO for NT7 and then proceeded to convert them over to NT8. He renamed them in the process and started using the term Golden Falcon Trading Pro. I guess this sounds rather proprietary doesn't it. I have seen many iterations of @Fat Tails indicators get repackaged and sold for hundreds of dollars over the years and it is very disheartening to say the least.

I am not claiming the DTC system / indicator setup doesn't work. But, you don't need to spend $13k when you can replicate for a few hundred bucks. They will very likely counter with the fact that it isn't about the indicators but about the "training". Well, more on that in another post. I don't have time to get into that right now.

Ah yes the indicators. All of these indicators are available in the public domain which I have linked to in the attachments.

If you decide to proceed to build this up yourself, feel free to correct me where required.







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JonnyBoy View Post
Day Trading Coach - Indicators


Thanks. This is awesome.

I have been trying to recreate this for some time. I don't have the renko bars and the second trigger lines (in the pic above).The renko bars should be easy to get. I have been struggling with the second trigger lines, I think they are higher timeframe Tigger lines. I found a post on the NT forum where someone tired to code the MTF trigger lines with renko bars. They were trying to recreate the "large triggers" from the nexgent3 system.

This is the link to the post on NT forum - https://ninjatrader.com/support/forum/forum/ninjatrader-7/indicator-development-aa/86112-multi-time-frame-triggerline-indicator

Any idea on how to code this? Do you see any similarities?

I tried to plot the amaTriggerlines using a secondary data series but it did not work.

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I believe it could be more simple than that, providing two instances of the trigger line indicator has been applied to the chart.

The second trigger line instance will have different settings to the first combined with a square plot. I think anyway. I only have the NT7 version of Harry's indicators and I don't have my virtual workspace setup on my new PC yet.

As you have purchased the Lizard Indicators for NT8, you could always ask Harry or Kris via their website. You know with an aim to keep things separate from FIO....even though these were their indicators in the first place!

You have enough screen shots to make it bang up to the elephant, but I will take a look nonetheless if I get the chance this weekend to setup my VM.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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JonnyBoy View Post
You have enough screen shots to make it bang up to the elephant,

Funny phrase, never heard that one before, I had to Google it. Victorian slang, well what do you know

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Its always sad to see freely available indicators being repackaged and sold to masses. It is very unfortunate that honest hard work of someone else is used to commit such a frauds.

Thanks Jonny for bringing this to light.

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aprilfool View Post
Thanks. This is awesome.

I have been trying to recreate this for some time. I don't have the renko bars and the second trigger lines (in the pic above).The renko bars should be easy to get. I have been struggling with the second trigger lines, I think they are higher timeframe Tigger lines. I found a post on the NT forum where someone tired to code the MTF trigger lines with renko bars. They were trying to recreate the "large triggers" from the nexgent3 system.

I agree that @JonnyBoy did a great job of tracking down these indicators, but I would also caution anyone to not place that much importance on these or any other indicators.

They may in fact work fine, and from looking at the charts I rather think that they do. But no set of indicators is either essential nor enough to make anyone a success. You can literally trade successfully with one moving average (or two, or three, or none), and there are traders who post their work here in their journals who do. You can also trade successfully with a whole host of other indicators, and there are traders here who do. You know these are traders posting real results, by the way, because they admit their mistakes and show their losing trades too. (Just a hint on how to evaluate a vendor's claims....)

So it's great if anyone finds these indicators interesting and wants to give them a whirl, but becoming too attached to any one set of them is not necessarily a good idea.

And with that said, by all means use anything that lets you trade better. Just don't put the indicator or the chart type or whatever in the wrong place: none of these will make anyone a successful trader. Understanding what the market is doing, or at least how you can respond to what it's doing, is what will -- and at best, an indicator can help you with that, but nothing more.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. Do whatever works for you, and don't give too much attention to anyone's opinions either, any more than to their indicators.

Bob.

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matthew28 View Post
Funny phrase, never heard that one before, I had to Google it. Victorian slang, well what do you know

You can take the boy out of London....

You should have seen the look on my French Canadian friends face when he pieced that one together!

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bobwest View Post
I agree that @JonnyBoy did a great job of tracking down these indicators, but I would also caution anyone to not place that much importance on these or any other indicators.

They may in fact work fine, and from looking at the charts I rather think that they do. But no set of indicators is either essential nor enough to make anyone a success. You can literally trade successfully with one moving average (or two, or three, or none), and there are traders who post their work here in their journals who do. You can also trade successfully with a whole host of other indicators, and there are traders here who do. You know these are traders posting real results, by the way, because they admit their mistakes and show their losing trades too. (Just a hint on how to evaluate a vendor's claims....)

So it's great if anyone finds these indicators interesting and wants to give them a whirl, but becoming too attached to any one set of them is not necessarily a good idea.

And with that said, by all means use anything that lets you trade better. Just don't put the indicator or the chart type or whatever in the wrong place: none of these will make anyone a successful trader. Understanding what the market is doing, or at least how you can respond to what it's doing, is what will -- and at best, an indicator can help you with that, but nothing more.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. Do whatever works for you, and don't give too much attention to anyone's opinions either, any more than to their indicators.

Bob.

Great post. Your words here should not only be a sticky in the downloads section, they should be a mandatory ''Read, OK and Accept'' the moment you sign up for FIO.

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Legendary Market Wizard
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aprilfool View Post
Thanks. This is awesome.

I have been trying to recreate this for some time. I don't have the renko bars and the second trigger lines (in the pic above).The renko bars should be easy to get. I have been struggling with the second trigger lines, I think they are higher timeframe Tigger lines. I found a post on the NT forum where someone tired to code the MTF trigger lines with renko bars. They were trying to recreate the "large triggers" from the nexgent3 system.

This is the link to the post on NT forum - https://ninjatrader.com/support/forum/forum/ninjatrader-7/indicator-development-aa/86112-multi-time-frame-triggerline-indicator

Any idea on how to code this? Do you see any similarities?

I tried to plot the amaTriggerlines using a secondary data series but it did not work.

Following up. I think I figured it out with the other set of Trigger Lines...a dog with a bone springs to mind. These are the settings. Let me know, post a chart etc.




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Coach Lane Faking Live Trades? You decide.

So, I decided to slice and dice one of the 4 videos that remain up on Day Trading Coach website. Remember, Jovan essentially removed his entire library of videos that showed his trades were not from a LIVE account as he had vehemently claimed in the videos and to all of his ''students''.

Well, could the same be said for one of his coaches? There is a case to be made here and I'll go through the evidence. The video is still up on YouTube but I took a copy so I could go through this frame by frame.



I have no skin in this game to keep calling them out, but I feel so strongly about the ethics of what they are doing here to my local Calgary fellows this really hurts. Especially in the desperate times we are in, people reach for any potentially easy way to keep a roof over their head. It is in very poor taste and makes me quite angry.

So, onto the breakdown of this video.

On the YouTube video, Coach Lane enters the trade at 4m:14s and is out by 4m:40s. I downloaded it and decided to go through this frame by frame concentrating on the DOM.

The frame snapshot below is the frame right before he supposedly gets his profit target filled at 1401.1. The market doesn't actually penetrate his profit target price level, so even on a limit order that is a big ask to have been filled. And note that at his profit level of 1401.1 there are 11 resting limit orders.



The next few snapshots are the 2 frames after he supposedly gets filled (now bare in mind you don't see the DOM actually get to his price level ((the chart shows it)) but he is taken out of the trade nonetheless at his supposed profit target level). Note, there are still 11 resting limit orders at the price level of 1401.1 potentially meaning his contracts were not removed from the order book because he was actually trading in SIM, not from a LIVE account.

I agree that the resting limit orders could have been immediately back filled by new limit orders to replace his 4 that were removed but I highly doubt that. The odds are slim but I guess not impossible.




The yellow box (around price) on the DOM is the current traded price. In brackets is the quantity of contracts traded, which remains at (1) pretty much throughout. This doesn't appear to marry up but that alone is not conclusive because they could have been executed as individual orders, bid/ask etc.

Either way, I believe the tell here is the resting limit orders not changing to reflect his removal of 4 contracts and also the fact that price didn't sweep through his profit target level so he would have been unlikely, some would say very unlikely, to get a fill with a limit order.

Is this 100% conclusive to fake live trading? Not this time, unlike Jovan's ridiculous attempt which were 100% conclusive of not trading from a live account. But, this sure fits in with Jovan's style of faking supposed live trades in an attempt to make new traders believe that with his system, trading is just that easy.

Go look at this video on YouTube and slow down the video to 0.25 and take a look yourself. You can be the judge.

I plead with anybody in Calgary, or I guess anywhere now they are doing online webinars, to thoroughly do your due diligence and know exactly what their claims vs. reality are. The ''guarantee'' of success is littered with so many clauses in their favour it would be almost impossible to get a refund in my opinion.

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Coach Lane Faking Live Trades? Again? You decide

Same story as my post above. After I exposed DTC of this deceiving practice a little while ago (way before this thread was started and something I'll discuss in a later post) they likely believed they had removed all of the videos that showed their deception of NOT trading from a live account. When they did so, unbelievably only 4 videos remained!

However, I believe I have exposed Coach Lane yet again. This time on the video highlighted below, which means he has been exposed on 2 out of 2 of his videos.



Exactly the same situation this time around as my post above. He supposedly had 4 resting limit orders at his profit level which does not align with the order book of 1, appearing to prove yet again it was traded from a SIM account. In addition the market did not penetrate his profit target level. This doesn't mean you won't get filled on a limit order but it is unlikely.

The DOM although not as finite as the T&S doesn't lie.



Some may ask, what do I have against DTC? The answer is nothing. It is a free country and you can do what you want. And if people want to pay out $13k for their training and get no free trial, then go for it.

My issue is with their deception and their marketing technique to get normal people to part with their hard earned cash. Calgary has been devastated by the Covid-19 crisis and unemployment is high. Regular people are looking for a different career and when they see a day trading career portrayed by DTC as an easy way to become a millionaire (yes, they use that a lot), it really gets my goat.

I can see that Bing and Google have started to index this thread, so if you are reading this whilst researching for a review on Day Trading Coach, Calgary, Alberta. I implore you to please do your due diligence. So far, none of their practices IMO appear to be honest, except for taking your money.

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Coach Jovan - LIVE trading video (SIM account NOT a LIVE account)

I had an interesting interaction today. Outside of FIO, a local Calgary trader wanted to discuss Day Trading Coach with me over Skype. At first I had no idea if this was a real request or this was DTC themselves. Either way, I obliged and fortunately they were a real ''student'' of DTC. They are currently in the DTC program but they have been extremely suspicious that not everything is as it seems and some red flags have popped up for them too late. The issue is, they just don't have the trading knowledge to counter them.

Unfortunately, they paid over $10k and are kind of stuck inside of it right now. They allowed me to take a look through all of the paraphernalia they have received from DTC in exchange for going through one of Coach Jovan's videos and explaining how the DOM / Order Book works in real time.

A video I said, why yes, I have many of them! I have after all been investigating these guys for a little while now as you can probably gather!

Like all of the ''trading'' videos (prior to Jovan removing them from YouTube after being exposed), this video was in the public domain available on YouTube. I chose this video because there is some interaction with other coaches that I thought was interesting.

I say coaches but I am not 100% sure. Remember, I already exposed Coach Lane in my prior posts so I can only allege that the other coaches must be aware of the practice to deceive taking real positions vs. SIM positions.

Anyway, after taking a losing trade Jovan jumps right back in. He doubles his position but unfortunately for him the DOM doesn't lie. At some points in video, the number of contracts he was supposedly trading were about 80% to 95% of the entire price level! If you don't want to watch the video I have time stamped the snapshots from it.

Again, when the resting limit orders in the book are lower than the number of contracts supposedly resting at his profit level means the trade was taken in SIM. Not a LIVE account.

All traders and I mean ALL traders should be aware of exactly how the order book works. So how Jovan can claim he has 20+ years trading experience without knowing he would be exposed via his DOM is incredible to me. This is exactly how Doran ''The Pit Bull'' Trader got exposed and has since disappeared as have many other charlatan traders when the truth finally catches up with them. The DOM doesn't lie.

My intention with DTC is to educate people about their dishonest practices. I have no problem with what they are doing. Their ''education'' might be amazing but before you write that check, take a breath and understand what you are getting into. There is no free trial once that check has been cashed.

I have now read through all of their terms and conditions and license agreements and they are 100% water tight as governed by the laws within the province of Alberta, but let's be clear I have never stated they are doing anything illegal. And they actually admit in their Terms of Service that any trades shown may not actually be executed by a coach or moderator.

And they also state that ''No coach or moderator, norany[sic] other person included in the DTC Group, is required to verify or maintain trade records or otherwise substantiate any trades, nor are any of them required to engage in any trading or investment strategy.'' - which is essentially their ''out'' for not requiring to prove any trades via brokerage statements or to put it bluntly DTC don't have to prove any trades at all - even on request of the students.

This IMO is a bit of a reach. People have paid because they trust what you are showing them. Once that trust is eroded I am not sure there is much left.

Anyway, here is the video.




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Day Trading.Coach Scam of Live Trading Continues

After I exposed the ''original'' Day Trading Coach YouTube channel for Day Trading.Coach, they simply removed the majority of the videos (which I commented on above) and then created another YouTube channel altogether. You can go and see for yourself the Jovan and Co. NON LIVE TRADING continuing.

DAY TRADING COACH DO NOT TRADE FROM A LIVE ACCOUNT

Their new YouTube channel is here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDWm83gVWxbsv9WhaNMH6jQ

Within 15 seconds I found a fake live trade from Jovan. Same principles as above as to why this was NOT traded from a live account. Amazing. What lengths will these guys go to to keep the fakery alive?

Here is a snapshot:


Please, please do your due diligence. These guys DO NOT TRADE FROM LIVE ACCOUNTS!

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Has Coach Jovan risen from the ashes of New Futures Trading International Corporation, Fernando Fagundes (alias Henry Roche)? (alleged and unconfirmed)

I received some information today with respect to the Ontario Securities Commission investigation into New Futures Trading International Corporation.

There are some as yet unconfirmed new rumours that Coach Jovan from Day Trading.Coach in Calgary, Alberta is allegedly Fernando Fagundes (alias Henry Roche). (alleged and unconfirmed)

Citing a 2011 article
"A Bedford-based Internet trading corporation is actually a Ponzi scheme run by a Canadian resident who used it to pay off previous investors and build up his Ontario horse farm, according to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. The SEC charges that Henry Roche bilked about 14 investors in nine states out of $1.3 million though the New Futures Trading International Corp."

https://www.westlawecarswell.com/oscb/on3613/on3613-0.htm
https://www.nhbr.com/sec-alleges-n-h-based-ponzi-scheme/
https://www.osc.gov.on.ca/en/Proceedings_rad_20130531_new-futures2.htm
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2011/lr22159.htm

The links above that were sent to me by an external source.

To be very clear, this is unconfirmed information right now. Although a deep web search produced some interesting finds.

EDIT: I re-worded this to clarify. As yet, these are unconfirmed rumours and any information purported that Coach Jovan was Fernando Fagundes (alias Henry Roche and/or any of the other aliases used) is alleged.

I will pass this information on to Alberta's SEC at a suggestion of my buddy. He was given a slap on the wrist in 2003 by Alberta's SEC so he knows how things work.

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Hello Everyone:

It has been a long time since I have logged onto these forums. I am doing so today because of the letter I received from an attorney representing The Day Trading Coach. I have attached the letter to this eMail. It appears that the folks at The Day Trading Coach thinks I am JohnnyBoy from this forum. I am not.

So who am I:

My name is Johnny Liner, a medical practitioner and wana be futures trader. I have failed at trading now since 1984 when I was first introduced to the concept. I have bought books, seminars, software, and the like year after-year, chasing one supposedly working method after another. I spend tens of thousands of dollars each year trying and failing.

One such attempt try and failed attempt came about 2 years ago with The Day Trading Coach. Although, to be fair to Mr. Jovan, I didn't have much of an opportunity to make an attempt. While I was looking into his system I was also reviewing others. I attended everyone of his live trading sessions, and even recorded some of them to replay over and over again to try and learn it. Mr Jovan spent about 60% of the time talking about Chakra and how we can command the universe around us, including the markets, and about 40% of the time explaining the trading system and plan. Part of his program required that I do homework that involved me writing statements on how much I believed the universe owed me a living an how the universe can bend to my will at making me a successful trader. Then I would get my weekly calls that berated me and belittle me because my demands from the universe was not convincing enough. Every call and training session we were require to listen to him command the universe to remove negative thoughts and ideas from our mind and to inject positive thoughts simply by commanding it so. I think this part of the program was trying to develop a "mentality" for trading - but unfortunately I am not as much an abstract thinker and such things didn't appeal to me. The only interest I really had was in his indicators, trading plan, and how he used them - which he seemed to provide little content on.

With respect to Mr JohnnyBoys claims that his trades are on simulation, I can not answer. I can tell you this however. We logged into his system and watch him trade live markets almost daily. I would watch him on one computer and have ninjatrader running his system on the other - and his trades seem to match. He did this live and gave us opportunities to ask questions about the trades. I had no reason to believe that these were recordings.

So, does his system and trading method work - maybe. I can tell you that it never worked for me.

So, In the mean time, while I was playing with his system, I downloaded some other indicators that looked interesting and was attempting to code them in such a way they would support multiple time frames - an idea that I thought was useful from his system. I sought out help on the NinjaTrader forums because I was having difficulty setting up indicators on a current timeframe chart from a different chart. Mr Jovan saw those posts on NinjaTrader and turned off my ninjatrader indicators (which at the time was on Ninja7). Mr Jovan thought I was trying to steal his software. While the indicators I was working on were based on linear regression intercept and moving averages of it - I use his ribbon look and applied it to my indicator. The images are on the NinjaTrader forums. I sent him all my code - but still none-the-less he accused me of trying to steal his software.

So, After Mr Jovan cutoff my access to his indicators on Ninja7, I could no longer "practice" his method. So, I only get to play with his stuff about 1 month before I was cutoff. Mr Jovan did send me a refund of 80% of what I paid for the program at the time as well.

So we parted ways and I never heard from him again ... until Mr JohnnyBoy here starts making posts on this form about his service. As a result, I have a threat of a lawsuit. I have attached the letter to this post for everyone to read and for the forum owners/monitors to read as well.

Plain and Simple: I am not JohnnyBoy. I guess they assumed from my past and the fact my first name is Johnny that it is me. The phone number to the attorney is in the letter, so if anyone would like to call Mr Ryan (forum owners or Mr JohnnyBoy) and straighten this mess out, I would be greatful.

Best regards and happy investing:
Johnny

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jeliner View Post
Hello Everyone:

It has been a long time since I have logged onto these forums. I am doing so today because of the letter I received from an attorney representing The Day Trading Coach. I have attached the letter to this eMail. It appears that the folks at The Day Trading Coach thinks I am JohnnyBoy from this forum. I am not.

So who am I:

My name is Johnny Liner, a medical practitioner and wana be futures trader. I have failed at trading now since 1984 when I was first introduced to the concept. I have bought books, seminars, software, and the like year after-year, chasing one supposedly working method after another. I spend tens of thousands of dollars each year trying and failing.

One such attempt try and failed attempt came about 2 years ago with The Day Trading Coach. Although, to be fair to Mr. Jovan, I didn't have much of an opportunity to make an attempt. While I was looking into his system I was also reviewing others. I attended everyone of his live trading sessions, and even recorded some of them to replay over and over again to try and learn it. Mr Jovan spent about 60% of the time talking about Chakra and how we can command the universe around us, including the markets, and about 40% of the time explaining the trading system and plan. Part of his program required that I do homework that involved me writing statements on how much I believed the universe owed me a living an how the universe can bend to my will at making me a successful trader. Then I would get my weekly calls that berated me and belittle me because my demands from the universe was not convincing enough. Every call and training session we were require to listen to him command the universe to remove negative thoughts and ideas from our mind and to inject positive thoughts simply by commanding it so. I think this part of the program was trying to develop a "mentality" for trading - but unfortunately I am not as much an abstract thinker and such things didn't appeal to me. The only interest I really had was in his indicators, trading plan, and how he used them - which he seemed to provide little content on.

With respect to Mr JohnnyBoys claims that his trades are on simulation, I can not answer. I can tell you this however. We logged into his system and watch him trade live markets almost daily. I would watch him on one computer and have ninjatrader running his system on the other - and his trades seem to match. He did this live and gave us opportunities to ask questions about the trades. I had no reason to believe that these were recordings.

So, does his system and trading method work - maybe. I can tell you that it never worked for me.

So, In the mean time, while I was playing with his system, I downloaded some other indicators that looked interesting and was attempting to code them in such a way they would support multiple time frames - an idea that I thought was useful from his system. I sought out help on the NinjaTrader forums because I was having difficulty setting up indicators on a current timeframe chart from a different chart. Mr Jovan saw those posts on NinjaTrader and turned off my ninjatrader indicators (which at the time was on Ninja7). Mr Jovan thought I was trying to steal his software. While the indicators I was working on were based on linear regression intercept and moving averages of it - I use his ribbon look and applied it to my indicator. The images are on the NinjaTrader forums. I sent him all my code - but still none-the-less he accused me of trying to steal his software.

So, After Mr Jovan cutoff my access to his indicators on Ninja7, I could no longer "practice" his method. So, I only get to play with his stuff about 1 month before I was cutoff. Mr Jovan did send me a refund of 80% of what I paid for the program at the time as well.

So we parted ways and I never heard from him again ... until Mr JohnnyBoy here starts making posts on this form about his service. As a result, I have a threat of a lawsuit. I have attached the letter to this post for everyone to read and for the forum owners/monitors to read as well.

Plain and Simple: I am not JohnnyBoy. I guess they assumed from my past and the fact my first name is Johnny that it is me. The phone number to the attorney is in the letter, so if anyone would like to call Mr Ryan (forum owners or Mr JohnnyBoy) and straighten this mess out, I would be greatful.

Best regards and happy investing:
Johnny

@jeliner WOW!...i've had baseless letters like that sent to me by lawyers...my response was to wipe my ass with the letter, stuff it in an envelope and send it back to them! Worked like a champ!

best to you

Johnny

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jeliner View Post
Hello Everyone:

It has been a long time since I have logged onto these forums. I am doing so today because of the letter I received from an attorney representing The Day Trading Coach. I have attached the letter to this eMail. It appears that the folks at The Day Trading Coach thinks I am JohnnyBoy from this forum. I am not.

So who am I:

My name is Johnny Liner, a medical practitioner and wana be futures trader. I have failed at trading now since 1984 when I was first introduced to the concept. I have bought books, seminars, software, and the like year after-year, chasing one supposedly working method after another. I spend tens of thousands of dollars each year trying and failing.

One such attempt try and failed attempt came about 2 years ago with The Day Trading Coach. Although, to be fair to Mr. Jovan, I didn't have much of an opportunity to make an attempt. While I was looking into his system I was also reviewing others. I attended everyone of his live trading sessions, and even recorded some of them to replay over and over again to try and learn it. Mr Jovan spent about 60% of the time talking about Chakra and how we can command the universe around us, including the markets, and about 40% of the time explaining the trading system and plan. Part of his program required that I do homework that involved me writing statements on how much I believed the universe owed me a living an how the universe can bend to my will at making me a successful trader. Then I would get my weekly calls that berated me and belittle me because my demands from the universe was not convincing enough. Every call and training session we were require to listen to him command the universe to remove negative thoughts and ideas from our mind and to inject positive thoughts simply by commanding it so. I think this part of the program was trying to develop a "mentality" for trading - but unfortunately I am not as much an abstract thinker and such things didn't appeal to me. The only interest I really had was in his indicators, trading plan, and how he used them - which he seemed to provide little content on.

With respect to Mr JohnnyBoys claims that his trades are on simulation, I can not answer. I can tell you this however. We logged into his system and watch him trade live markets almost daily. I would watch him on one computer and have ninjatrader running his system on the other - and his trades seem to match. He did this live and gave us opportunities to ask questions about the trades. I had no reason to believe that these were recordings.

So, does his system and trading method work - maybe. I can tell you that it never worked for me.

So, In the mean time, while I was playing with his system, I downloaded some other indicators that looked interesting and was attempting to code them in such a way they would support multiple time frames - an idea that I thought was useful from his system. I sought out help on the NinjaTrader forums because I was having difficulty setting up indicators on a current timeframe chart from a different chart. Mr Jovan saw those posts on NinjaTrader and turned off my ninjatrader indicators (which at the time was on Ninja7). Mr Jovan thought I was trying to steal his software. While the indicators I was working on were based on linear regression intercept and moving averages of it - I use his ribbon look and applied it to my indicator. The images are on the NinjaTrader forums. I sent him all my code - but still none-the-less he accused me of trying to steal his software.

So, After Mr Jovan cutoff my access to his indicators on Ninja7, I could no longer "practice" his method. So, I only get to play with his stuff about 1 month before I was cutoff. Mr Jovan did send me a refund of 80% of what I paid for the program at the time as well.

So we parted ways and I never heard from him again ... until Mr JohnnyBoy here starts making posts on this form about his service. As a result, I have a threat of a lawsuit. I have attached the letter to this post for everyone to read and for the forum owners/monitors to read as well.

Plain and Simple: I am not JohnnyBoy. I guess they assumed from my past and the fact my first name is Johnny that it is me. The phone number to the attorney is in the letter, so if anyone would like to call Mr Ryan (forum owners or Mr JohnnyBoy) and straighten this mess out, I would be greatful.

Best regards and happy investing:
Johnny

Well, I would say that this is quite an embarrassing position DTC and their lawyers have manoeuvred themselves into. Talk about a lack of due diligence. You are not me and I am not you.

Thank you for posting this. This appears to be typical posturing from a legal perspective in a bid to try and salvage some credibility. They have been exposed and they don't like it. IMO this has only further exacerbated any issues and will cause more harm to them rather than letting a thread on a forum die in the ether.



Correct. The licensing of indicators is not illegal. Nobody said it was. As stated above, Jovan took the NT7 indicators distributed by @Fat Tails (under the GNU General Public License) probably from this forum and changed their name to fit under the umbrella of Golden Falcon Trading Pro. This is a fact. I have concrete evidence that the original @Fat Tails indicators were used as part of Family First Dynasty which later morphed into Day Trading Coach.

Ray from https://www.innovative-trading-solutions-online.com/new/ aka @RJay (on FIO) is used by DTC as their ''IT expert" to install the DTC suite of indicators on your machine via Team Viewer. So, I expect (not confirmed) that he was also involved in coding up their entire Golden Falcon Trading Pro suite, essentially taking the NT7 @Fat Tails suite of indicators he was given and updating them to NT8 and renaming them in the process. Only he will be able to confirm or deny his involvement with DTC. To be fair to him it is/was just another coding job but to the best of my knowledge he is still involved with DTC to this date. I have seen him read this thread on a number of occasions.

Nobody said repackaging indicators was illegal. Unethical? You bet.



Correct. The demonstration or teaching of trading through the use of a simulator is not illegal. Nobody said it was. As stated above, the DTC trades shown were trades taken but not from a LIVE real dollar account. They may have been taken from a LIVE feed, but not a LIVE real dollar account. Their YouTube videos have [LIVE TRADING] or words to that effect which may lead people to believe they were taken from a LIVE real dollar account. They were not.

The DOM doesn't lie. The trades discussed in this thread were taken on a SIM account. This is a fact and has been verified through a number of parties including NinjaTrader themselves. Why did DTC go to the extent within NinjaTrader to change the colour of the SIM DOM to that of a LIVE DOM? Was it to fool people into thinking they were trading on a LIVE feed from a LIVE dollar account? One can only wonder.

If they are able to provide brokerage statements AND the CME routing number (for me to verify) for any of the trades discussed in this thread, it would be fair to remove the post. We all receive daily brokerage statements, so it wouldn't be hard to find or for them to post after each YouTube video. If you really want people to believe you are trading with real dollars from a live account - just post your brokerage statement as part of the YouTube video - the problem is you can only do this when trading from a live account. And herein lies the issue.

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And if anybody had any doubts this reaffirms everything I have been saying.

DTC posted a video on November 03, 2020 named "DayTrading.Coach Wednesday October 28 2020 1 long trade 2 minutes 2 $200. 00"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQirjg6FaVU

Of course the usual story here. Jovan supposedly has 20 LMT order contracts resting at 1557.50. The sell side ladder only has (at the time of the snapshot) 10 resting limit orders at this price. So, if he was trading from a LIVE dollar account, the number of resting limit orders would be reflected in the order book. I.E it should read 30, but it doesn't because the trade by DTC was taken in SIM. This cannot be disputed. It is how the order book works and how the CME exchange works. This is a fact.

So, DTC have the DOM coloured (in NT) as if they are trading from a LIVE account (you have to go and change this setting yourself in NT) using real dollars and the title of the video is "DayTrading.Coach Wednesday October 28 2020 1 long trade 2 minutes 2 $200. 00".

This is the setting in NT where you can change the DOM to appear the same colour as if you are trading from a LIVE account.




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Thank you Mr. JohnnyBoy for your reply, but unfortunately, this is not helpful for my situation. I thought after trying and failing with The Day Trading Coach system over 2 years ago, that I would never have to see this guy again. Since becoming one of his initial batch of students and parting ways with him, I never once mentioned him or his services on any public forum ever. My failure was my own and I moved on, but this is not good enough for Mr Jovan, The Day Trading Coach company, or his attorney.

Now, in just three short days, I have a lawsuit coming. Despite having notified The Day Trading Coach attorney, Ryan, that I am not you, they have not contacted me to let me know that continued pursuit of legal action against me would be dismissed. So, now I need to find a lawyer of my own to investigate this whole mess and to clear me of these charges, this I am doing on Monday.

I am trying to be proactive about this before I am sued for all I am worth. I have filed a complaint against DTC with the US SEC today concerning the issues related to the law suit (https://www.sec.gov/oiea/Complaint.html). I have also submitted an email to (csa-acvm-secretariat@acvm-csa.ca) which is the Canadian version of the SEC, trying to reach out for help.

Does anyone have any other suggestions on what I can do? I don't want to do noting and hope this all goes away, then find myself in a big lawsuit that I cant afford, for something that I didn't even do. I was thinking about calling the local police as well? Should I do that?

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JonnyBoy View Post
Well, I would say that this is quite an embarrassing position DTC and their lawyers have manoeuvred themselves into. Talk about a lack of due diligence. You are not me and I am not you.

The attorney did his due diligence. When I was a student of the DTC program a few years ago, I lived in Arlington, Texas. When they sent the letter to me it had my Washington address, where I am living now. They are just firmly convinced that I am you.

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jeliner View Post
The attorney did his due diligence. When I was a student of the DTC program a few years ago, I lived in Arlington, Texas. When they sent the letter to me it had my Washington address, where I am living now. They are just firmly convinced that I am you. Which on second thought is scary, yep I am going to call the police.

So, a lawyer sends out a cease and desist letter to you with zero evidence behind the claims that it was you, purely based on DTC trawling through their email database where they happened to get a coincidental "hit" on a user name that happened to be a similar name/username to you on FIO

A legal motion predicated on a hunch isn't exactly due diligence by their lawyer, that is what I was getting at. Finding someone's address, especially in the US is easy. You just need a name.

If the lawyer was worth their salt, they probably cringed at writing that letter. They know it is baseless. However, some lawyers love this stuff and don't care who they hurt in the process.

There's really nothing magical or legally damning about a cease-and-desist letter. Often they are just a cheap way for one party's lawyers to shock or bully another party into "ceasing" or "desisting" without actually filing suit.

They have made an accusation which is patently false and sent you a huff and puff cease and desist.

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@jeliner

I am only briefly aware of this thread at this moment, but am intrigued by the cease and desist. Could you please post the letter they sent you, with your personal information blacked out?

Our community is here to support members sharing their experiences. I am disgusted by any vendor who tries to bully someone unfairly. Believe me, I'm familiar with many.

I'll try to help where possible and where warranted.

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  #33 (permalink)
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Thanks for jumping in Mike, I didn't want to bother you with everything you have on the go at the moment.

Big Mike View Post
@jeliner

I am only briefly aware of this thread at this moment, but am intrigued by the cease and desist. Could you please post the letter they sent you, with your personal information blacked out?

Our community is here to support members sharing their experiences. I am disgusted by any vendor who tries to bully someone unfairly. Believe me, I'm familiar with many.

I'll try to help where possible and where warranted.

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Big Mike View Post
@jeliner

I am only briefly aware of this thread at this moment, but am intrigued by the cease and desist. Could you please post the letter they sent you, with your personal information blacked out?

Our community is here to support members sharing their experiences. I am disgusted by any vendor who tries to bully someone unfairly. Believe me, I'm familiar with many.

I'll try to help where possible and where warranted.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

Mike, @jeliner included the pdf of the lawyer's letter as an attachment to this post:



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On the "due diligence" question, I am seriously surprised that the vendor and his lawyer decided that @jeliner, their old customer, and @JonnyBoy, who is posting in this thread, are the same person based solely on their having found an old customer they had some issues with at one time in the past, and whose first name is "Johnny." They may not know how many people are named "John" or something like it in the world.

It's also amazingly careless that they did not notice that "JonnyBoy" does not have an "h" in his screen name. It is "Jonny," not "Johnny." Maybe they thought he was trying to disguise his identity by cleverly changing his screen name and throw them off. Or maybe they just were really careless about who they would threaten with a lawsuit.

This level of irresponsibility is likely to harm their reputation in the end, if they sent off a threatening letter to an old customer -- and the wrong person -- based solely on a somewhat similar screen name on an online forum.

It will not go to court of course. These things don't. They are just about intimidation. Lawsuits cost money and you can lose. Letters from lawyers cost only a small amount of money and are worth a shot. But if they have to prove to a judge that @jeliner posted these criticisms of them here, quite apart from whether anything wrong was done by the criticism, how to they think they are going to do it? Evidence is often required to prove things, not chance partial similarities in a screen name.

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bobwest View Post
On the "due diligence" question, I am seriously surprised that the vendor and his lawyer decided that @jeliner, their old customer, and @JonnyBoy, who is posting in this thread, are the same person based solely on their having found an old customer they had some issues with at one time in the past, and whose first name is "Johnny." They may not know how many people are named "John" or something like it in the world.

It's also amazingly careless that they did not notice that "JonnyBoy" does not have an "h" in his screen name. It is "Jonny," not "Johnny." Maybe they thought he was trying to disguise his identity by cleverly changing his screen name and throw them off. Or maybe they just were really careless about who they would threaten with a lawsuit.

This level of irresponsibility is likely to harm their reputation in the end, if they sent off a threatening letter to an old customer -- and the wrong person -- based solely on a somewhat similar screen name on an online forum.

It will not go to court of course. These things don't. They are just about intimidation. Lawsuits cost money and you can lose. Letters from lawyers cost only a small amount of money and are worth a shot. But if they have to prove to a judge that @jeliner posted these criticisms of them here, quite apart from whether anything wrong was done by the criticism, how to they think they are going to do it? Evidence is often required to prove things, not chance partial similarities in a screen name.

Bob.

Those were my first thoughts too Bob. Over the years I have seen a few occasions on FIO where a disgruntled vendor attempts to legally strong arm FIO directly or an individual user. @Big Mike of course has obviously seen many, many of these tactics and handled them accordingly. From memory it is always seems to be the unscrupulous ones too. I am not stating that in this case but there appears to be a particular trend to these types of activities.

IMO this will harm DTCs reputation further. This thread is likely to get much more exposure now especially via external search engines. Up until this moment, the point had been made and this thread would have probably been buried further and further until its prominence was muted.

What amazes me is the audacity of the entire 'legal' message. There is plenty of information laid out in this thread for any reader to perform their own due diligence. I include a further two instances below where claims of dollars made are in the title of the YouTube video. The mere fact that the title is suggestive of making profitable trades, combined with the DOM background colour made to appear like it was traded from a LIVE account is disingenuous. Not one time is it every mentioned that the dollars shown to me made on these trades were not real dollars but SIM dollars. Not in the video, nor in the title and no disclaimer as far as I can see.

DTC already ''killed'' their original YouTube channel, removing nearly all of the videos. They created a new YouTube channel but the same practices continued and they have been called out on here.

Moving forward, I expect that DTC will just remove these YouTube videos (as they did on their first channel) and/or new videos will not show the DOM. Either that, or they will start to trade a lower number of contracts so it is not as obvious they are trading in SIM. I also don't know if they are cherry picking winning trades and only showing those. That is another easy thing to do and you can throw in a losing trade every once in a while to show you are the 'real deal' but sometimes take losing trades.

Failing that, they could do the right thing and actually trade with real dollars and not SIM dollars. It would be so easy for them to post their (redacted) nightly brokerage statements to accompany each video. If they do this for the next 3 months and include the CME routing/trade number that can be verified, I will request for this thread (or my posts at least) to be removed and I will write a humble apology on this thread.

In addition, I will also donate a further $500.00 (and post the receipt here) to a local Calgary charity (WINS more than likely) to top off my regular donations. It is a win-win for all in my opinion.

dtc2


dtc1


dtc3

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  #37 (permalink)
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So “JonnyBoy” is correct. I have been monitoring this thread. When someone falsely accuses you of unethical acts, you tend to pay attention.

I have been watching the posts pile up here saying terrible things about me and my business associate.

This post is to address the accusations directed at me.

First of all, DTC does not own the software. I do. DTC purchases the same product licenses that I use for my retail products customers on my web site. All DTC clients become my clients. I install and maintain the product on their computers. DTC Clients also get my Lifetime product licenses.

DTC has exclusive rights to sales and marketing of this software as part of their services, per our agreement. You cannot purchase this system from me directly so don’t bother asking.

I have been accused here, of somehow stealing a retail product from FatTails, cracking the security encryption, evilly re purposing it, and making a whole lot of money doing it. Sounds terrible!!! Let gang up and ruin RJay. It’s only fair. Right?

Maybe not. Let’s try the truth on and see how it fits, shall we?

I, RJay, have a customer specific, privately sold product called “DTC_EagleBand”.

FatTails has a publicly available website product called “Trigger-lines”.

The accusation is that “DTC_EagleBand” is really “Trigger-lines” and that I am a lowdown dirty thief.

They sure look similar. You can keep telling yourself that they are identical if it makes you feel better.

Opps!!! , I almost forgot. It’s time to tell the truth!!!

The truth is that both these indicators are descended from an indicator called “Slingshot”.

Below is a link to the thread where FatTails uploads this “free” indicator on this very forum that he downloaded from somewhere else, not his own creation.





If you scroll down to post #2, there is the indicator for free. (NT6.5 – NT7.0)

If you open the zip file and then open the slingshot code, the original programmer identifies himself.

/// <summary>
/// SlingShot Indicator
/// </summary>
[Description("SlingShot Indicator - Paints Region between two moving averages of your choice. Created by Roonius")]
public class SlingShot : Indicator

Roonius and I were good friends. Every couple weeks, we would meet-up online with our most recent coding achievements and jam chart images in each other’s faces, while claiming to be the better, more inventive coder. Roonius already had a retail web site and I was in the process of building mine.

Roonius had both paid indicators and free download indicators on his web site. This is where his indicator “Slingshot” came from. Any story other than this should be considered pure fiction.

So all those fake, false accusations about me stealing stuff in this thread need to come down.

And somebody owes me a damn apology,

RJay


P.S. to jeliner,

I am not involved in any legal action against you. I see you have a registered account on my web site. Please go there and make a list of any NT8 products on my web site that you have an interest in and I will add those products to your account at no cost to you. Open a help ticket after login and post your NT8 product request list.

Thanks,

RJay

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  #38 (permalink)
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Real Dollar Funded Account vs. Sim Account on the DOM

Here is a video to clearly demonstrate how the order book works on the DOM. The video itself is self explanatory. If you are trading in real dollars, the order book at the exchange is adjusted accordingly. If you are trading in SIM dollars it is not.

Of all of the trades dissected on this thread (and if you are joining the dots potentially all of their supposed DTC live real dollar trades) were executed in SIM. When the SIM order book has more contracts than the actual exchange price level, this is just not possible. This cannot be disputed. It is how limit orders at the exchange work.

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RJay View Post
So “JonnyBoy” is correct. I have been monitoring this thread. When someone falsely accuses you of unethical acts, you tend to pay attention.

I have been watching the posts pile up here saying terrible things about me and my business associate.

This post is to address the accusations directed at me.

First of all, DTC does not own the software. I do. DTC purchases the same product licenses that I use for my retail products customers on my web site. All DTC clients become my clients. I install and maintain the product on their computers. DTC Clients also get my Lifetime product licenses.

DTC has exclusive rights to sales and marketing of this software as part of their services, per our agreement. You cannot purchase this system from me directly so don’t bother asking.

I have been accused here, of somehow stealing a retail product from FatTails, cracking the security encryption, evilly re purposing it, and making a whole lot of money doing it. Sounds terrible!!! Let gang up and ruin RJay. It’s only fair. Right?

Maybe not. Let’s try the truth on and see how it fits, shall we?

I, RJay, have a customer specific, privately sold product called “DTC_EagleBand”.

FatTails has a publicly available website product called “Trigger-lines”.

The accusation is that “DTC_EagleBand” is really “Trigger-lines” and that I am a lowdown dirty thief.

They sure look similar. You can keep telling yourself that they are identical if it makes you feel better.

Opps!!! , I almost forgot. It’s time to tell the truth!!!

The truth is that both these indicators are descended from an indicator called “Slingshot”.

Below is a link to the thread where FatTails uploads this “free” indicator on this very forum that he downloaded from somewhere else, not his own creation.





If you scroll down to post #2, there is the indicator for free. (NT6.5 – NT7.0)

If you open the zip file and then open the slingshot code, the original programmer identifies himself.

/// <summary>
/// SlingShot Indicator
/// </summary>
[Description("SlingShot Indicator - Paints Region between two moving averages of your choice. Created by Roonius")]
public class SlingShot : Indicator

Roonius and I were good friends. Every couple weeks, we would meet-up online with our most recent coding achievements and jam chart images in each other’s faces, while claiming to be the better, more inventive coder. Roonius already had a retail web site and I was in the process of building mine.

Roonius had both paid indicators and free download indicators on his web site. This is where his indicator “Slingshot” came from. Any story other than this should be considered pure fiction.

So all those fake, false accusations about me stealing stuff in this thread need to come down.

And somebody owes me a damn apology,

RJay


P.S. to jeliner,

I am not involved in any legal action against you. I see you have a registered account on my web site. Please go there and make a list of any NT8 products on my web site that you have an interest in and I will add those products to your account at no cost to you. Open a help ticket after login and post your NT8 product request list.

Thanks,

RJay

Thank you for your response and clarification in reaching out to this thread. I don't believe I accused you of re-obfuscating @Fat Tails indicators. These indicators were available as source code on FIO for the NT7 version. I did note that they appeared to be re-purposed @Fat Tails indicators.

Why did I think this? Well, there is a chart mark-up by DTC that names these indicators and they happen to match the names that @Fat Tails gave his.

My sincere apologies if you are saying you are actually the owner of these indicators.

Name-of-the-indicators-like-the-files



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  #40 (permalink)
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Basically, I do not understand all the excitement about a few very basic indicators.

Slingshot is just two moving averages with the area between the two averages painted.

Trigger Lines is not based on Slingshot. It is a linear regression line with a trigger line (moving average of linear regression) added. I did not invent this indicator. In any case, it does not take much of a genius to add an EMA to a linear regression line. Trigger Lines also has the area between the two lines painted, but this does not make it the same indicator as the SlingShot.

This forum was originally used for code sharing, not for code hiding. When I publish an open source indicator, the code cannot be stolen, because I have already published it.
Also, I have created many indicators which are just improved replicas of original indicators that were created by different authors. I do not feel guilty for improving them, and I do not hide the improved code.

Hope everybody enjoys and uses the indicators to improve trading results.

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Fat Tails View Post
Basically, I do not understand all the excitement about a few very basic indicators.

Slingshot is just two moving averages with the area between the two averages painted.

Trigger Lines is not based on Slingshot. It is a linear regression line with a trigger line (moving average of linear regression) added. I did not invent this indicator. In any case, it does not take much of a genius to add an EMA to a linear regression line. Trigger Lines also has the area between the two lines painted, but this does not make it the same indicator as the SlingShot.

This forum was originally used for code sharing, not for code hiding. When I publish an open source indicator, the code cannot be stolen, because I have already published it.
Also, I have created many indicators which are just improved replicas of original indicators that were created by different authors. I do not feel guilty for improving them, and I do not hide the improved code.

Hope everybody enjoys and uses the indicators to improve trading results.

Thank you!

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  #42 (permalink)
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Bowing out of this thread....

I will gracefully or ungracefully (depending on how you want to look at it) bow out of this thread. If there are some specifics that need addressing I will do that, but I have certainly gone above and beyond to highlight my concerns about DTC.

If @bobwest or @Big Mike feel they want to edit, remove, adjust a post I have made in this thread I have no issues with that. My intention was to shed some light on DTC and I have done that, in spades some might say.

As I have always stated, I have no skin in this game other than to spread some awareness about my concerns with DTC. I have always been vocal about this kind of stuff and yes, sometimes I don't need to drive the point home as hard as I do.

I am passionate because as a new trader I lost tens of thousands of dollars where I was promised riches by a vendor only to end up with rags.

One very painful memory is from my dealings with 'eminitradingschool'. My statement was included in the SEC prosecution against them. And although completely unrelated to DTC, I couldn't help be reminded of how the marketing was eerily similar.

I wish everybody good trading.

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  #43 (permalink)
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RJay View Post

P.S. to jeliner,

I am not involved in any legal action against you. I see you have a registered account on my web site. Please go there and make a list of any NT8 products on my web site that you have an interest in and I will add those products to your account at no cost to you. Open a help ticket after login and post your NT8 product request list.

Thanks,

RJay

I am reattaching the letter I received from The Day Trading Coach. I have sent an email to the attorney trying to explain that I am not JohnnyBoy, but I have not heard anything on weather this is going to be dropped. My only interest is resolving the threat of a lawsuit against me. I would prefer to stay as far away from Mr Jovan and DTC as possible. Since you have business relationship with this company, could you pass it along that I am indeed not JohnnyBoy so I can quit worrying about being sued.

Thanks

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  #44 (permalink)
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I believe the primary point here was a vendor being called out for lying about cash vs SIM repeatedly for the purpose of selling indicators.

The actual indicators themselves are less important.

That's my understanding.

Since @RJay is involved, I would hope he would tell his business partner to drop the ridiculous threat of lawsuit before it gets more embarrassing.

Always appreciate seeing you around Harry. I hope you and your family are well during this trying time.
Fat Tails View Post
Basically, I do not understand all the excitement about a few very basic indicators.

Slingshot is just two moving averages with the area between the two averages painted.

Trigger Lines is not based on Slingshot. It is a linear regression line with a trigger line (moving average of linear regression) added. I did not invent this indicator. In any case, it does not take much of a genius to add an EMA to a linear regression line. Trigger Lines also has the area between the two lines painted, but this does not make it the same indicator as the SlingShot.

This forum was originally used for code sharing, not for code hiding. When I publish an open source indicator, the code cannot be stolen, because I have already published it.
Also, I have created many indicators which are just improved replicas of original indicators that were created by different authors. I do not feel guilty for improving them, and I do not hide the improved code.

Hope everybody enjoys and uses the indicators to improve trading results.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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  #45 (permalink)
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Please keep an eye on the thread so we help our fellow members.

Educating people on how to spot lying vendors is a valuable resource, thank you for taking time to post your thoughts. Far more valuable than what these vendors are trying to sell as the holy grail.

"Helping turn traders into millionaires" or whatever their tagline is -- disgusting.
JonnyBoy View Post
Bowing out of this thread....

I will gracefully or ungracefully (depending on how you want to look at it) bow out of this thread. If there are some specifics that need addressing I will do that, but I have certainly gone above and beyond to highlight my concerns about DTC.

If @bobwest or @Big Mike feel they want to edit, remove, adjust a post I have made in this thread I have no issues with that. My intention was to shed some light on DTC and I have done that, in spades some might say.

As I have always stated, I have no skin in this game other than to spread some awareness about my concerns with DTC. I have always been vocal about this kind of stuff and yes, sometimes I don't need to drive the point home as hard as I do.

I am passionate because as a new trader I lost tens of thousands of dollars where I was promised riches by a vendor only to end up with rags.

One very painful memory is from my dealings with 'eminitradinschool'. My statement was included in the SEC prosecution against them. And although completely unrelated to DTC, I couldn't help be reminded of how the marketing was eerily similar.

I wish everybody good trading.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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RJay View Post

P.S. to jeliner,

I am not involved in any legal action against you. I see you have a registered account on my web site. Please go there and make a list of any NT8 products on my web site that you have an interest in and I will add those products to your account at no cost to you. Open a help ticket after login and post your NT8 product request list.

Thanks,

RJay


jeliner View Post
I am reattaching the letter I received from The Day Trading Coach. I have sent an email to the attorney trying to explain that I am not JohnnyBoy, but I have not heard anything on weather this is going to be dropped. My only interest is resolving the threat of a lawsuit against me. I would prefer to stay as far away from Mr Jovan and DTC as possible. Since you have business relationship with this company, could you pass it along that I am indeed not JohnnyBoy so I can quit worrying about being sued.

Thanks


Big Mike View Post

Since @RJay is involved, I would hope he would tell his business partner to drop the ridiculous threat of lawsuit before it gets more embarrassing.

OK, it's nice that @RJay is separating himself from his business associate's reckless threats of a lawsuit and is making nice offers of free software (which is not desired by the person in question).... but @jeliner is still feeling squeezed hard, personally, by this legal threat, and if there is any reason to think that he is someone who should be threatened, it has not come out yet. Quite the contrary.

So when will any of the persons who are arrayed against @jeliner, or any of their associates ( @RJay? ) step up and at least try to do the right thing? Or alternatively, if there is any proof that @jeliner is really @JonnyBoy, will they lay some of it out? Or are they going to wait until they have to tell a judge why they think he is? Will they have anything to say? It should be better than, "Well Your Honor, his name is Johnny, after all. Who else could he be?"

All I can say is, they had better be right on this, or they will publicly go down in flames. As will any of their enablers ( @RJay ? ) who have not said that this should stop.

And stop it should.

Any vendor who thinks he has been unfairly treated has every right to come in and defend himself. Facts always work, and any vendor with a problem with a review can come on here and point out the errors in the review, as he sees them. It never takes long to argue the facts. Attempting to suppress other people with threats looks like what it is, attempted suppression. Does anyone involved expect all this to help him sell software? ( @RJay? )

I am making no points in this post regarding the merits of @JonnyBoy's critique. Nor do I do care who first thought up the idea of adding an MA to an MA or another indicator or whatever. What I care about is that someone who is not @JonnyBoy, or at least says he is not, is getting squeezed hard by a vendor's lawyer, is losing sleep, and fears he will lose everything he has because his name is a variant of "John," one of the most common names in the Western world.

This should stop. If not for decency's sake, then because of the vendor's own self interest, in not wanting to look like what it makes him look like. And if he can't understand this, someone else, who is also going to look the same way, should tell him so. ( @RJay. )

Bob.

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  #47 (permalink)
Joplin, Mo. Jasper
 
 
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Hello, I just have to say I am glad to have seen this. This just preps me more for DTC. I have been saving for about 8 months to attend the school. Times are hard and I am able to pay the down payment finally and then pay the rest in payments. I was just doing more research and DD on DTC trying to find something other than the few negatives on Trust Pilot before I handed over the money. Income has been slow, selling things I could sell on ebay, scraping metal and finding things to flip for profit anything to get to the school. I was going to ask Jovan for statements on his trades before taking that last step and sending money. I still will ask, if he provides verified trading statements I will take his school. If not then I cant let go of the money that I have worked and saved for all this time. I have lost to much on trading programs before. Now this time I gave up alot trying to save and learn from a legitimate place. I am 70% disabled so employment for me is rare due to the nature of it. Disabled from PTSD from all the stuff I went thru for 10 years of service. I gave up almost every activity that took any kind of money. Hardly any nights out with dinner with my wife, no traveling to no where, saving every penny I could. But thats just one question I was and still will ask is verified trading statements. But just glad I came across this because it was a good read from every side and breakdown and aspect. Not one person swayed me from making a decision. It only clarified the question I was going to ask anyway. Thank you to all that put input in this.

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  #48 (permalink)
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Ty199 View Post
Hello, I just have to say I am glad to have seen this. This just preps me more for DTC. I have been saving for about 8 months to attend the school. Times are hard and I am able to pay the down payment finally and then pay the rest in payments. I was just doing more research and DD on DTC trying to find something other than the few negatives on Trust Pilot before I handed over the money. Income has been slow, selling things I could sell on ebay, scraping metal and finding things to flip for profit anything to get to the school. I was going to ask Jovan for statements on his trades before taking that last step and sending money. I still will ask, if he provides verified trading statements I will take his school. If not then I cant let go of the money that I have worked and saved for all this time. I have lost to much on trading programs before. Now this time I gave up alot trying to save and learn from a legitimate place. I am 70% disabled so employment for me is rare due to the nature of it. Disabled from PTSD from all the stuff I went thru for 10 years of service. I gave up almost every activity that took any kind of money. Hardly any nights out with dinner with my wife, no traveling to no where, saving every penny I could. But thats just one question I was and still will ask is verified trading statements. But just glad I came across this because it was a good read from every side and breakdown and aspect. Not one person swayed me from making a decision. It only clarified the question I was going to ask anyway. Thank you to all that put input in this.

Hello Mr Ty:

I was a past student of Mr Jovan, back some 2+ years ago. If I am not mistaken one of his Coaches, Mr Lane was part of my class as well. I have failed at trading since 1994 and spend an average of 20-30k per year since 1994 on trading systems and failed attempts at trying be be a trader. I have bought it all - pretty much every piece of software and program for 26years. I have yet to find something that works. Personally, I think the people who really know how to make a living at this don't really teach it, and I don't blame them - because I would probably be their worst student.

When I discovered DTC, it was called Family First and Mr Jovan was the only coach. His program comes in two parts: technical analysis and mental aptitude. Quite frankly, I could never get into the mental aptitude part of his program, it was too abstract for someone with an evidenced-based, concrete perspective. So, I focused on trying to understand his indicators and trading plan.

Along with being a medical professional, I am pretty OK at coding. So, I am always working on coding projects (ie datamining) to test trading perspectives that I come up with, read about or notice. I had a set of indicators that worked with MACD to color my graph bars and was using a Liner-regression intercept price cross over as a entry signal. There were two things unique about DTC that I liked, the multi-time frame indicator (he called the hawk - which is really the eagle on a higher time frame) and the ribbon appearance he used in his indicator, which come to find out was created by someone else. So, while I was working on trying to make my Linear regression intercept work on multiple time frames, I sought help on the NinjaTrader forums. The data coming from multi-version indicator didn't match the data on the higher time frame chart. While I was working on this side project while in the DTC class, Mr Jovan accused me of trying to steal his software and he booted me from the program. he also turned off my indicators on NinjaTrader7 as well. When he did so, he refunded 80% of what I paid and I never heard from him or saw his indicators since ... until the threat of a lawsuit as mentioned in this thread.

I can tell you that I personally never got anywhere with his system - but this is coming from a point of view of a person who has bought pretty much everything and failed for the last 26 years. This is my take on his system and my history and experience with the company and its about as much input as I can give. If I would have had more time to play with it, maybe I could have gotten someplace with the system - maybe not. Because of my personal negative history, I would prefer not to explore that option.

The next thing that I am about to look at is JigSaw, its about 1700$ (much cheaper than DTC) and comes with training. I think training and education is what I need more than anything at this point. I really don't know anything about JigSaw yet, but there isnt much out there left I have not tried. I have been kinda putting off looking at it because Book Reading appears to be complicated and very fast paced. We will see.

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  #49 (permalink)
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Ty199 View Post
Hello, I just have to say I am glad to have seen this. This just preps me more for DTC. I have been saving for about 8 months to attend the school. Times are hard and I am able to pay the down payment finally and then pay the rest in payments. I was just doing more research and DD on DTC trying to find something other than the few negatives on Trust Pilot before I handed over the money. Income has been slow, selling things I could sell on ebay, scraping metal and finding things to flip for profit anything to get to the school. I was going to ask Jovan for statements on his trades before taking that last step and sending money. I still will ask, if he provides verified trading statements I will take his school. If not then I cant let go of the money that I have worked and saved for all this time. I have lost to much on trading programs before. Now this time I gave up alot trying to save and learn from a legitimate place. I am 70% disabled so employment for me is rare due to the nature of it. Disabled from PTSD from all the stuff I went thru for 10 years of service. I gave up almost every activity that took any kind of money. Hardly any nights out with dinner with my wife, no traveling to no where, saving every penny I could. But thats just one question I was and still will ask is verified trading statements. But just glad I came across this because it was a good read from every side and breakdown and aspect. Not one person swayed me from making a decision. It only clarified the question I was going to ask anyway. Thank you to all that put input in this.

I only know about you what you wrote above, but if you are selling scrap metal to gather funds to trade or get trading education, then trading is likely not for you.

Trading is really tough, and with your background (PTSD, lack of funds, 70% disabled) you are putting yourself in an impossible situation.

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but I hate to see people wanting to trade who should not be trading. I can't see your trading story ending well, and I wish I could.

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  #50 (permalink)
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Ty199 View Post
Hello, I just have to say I am glad to have seen this. This just preps me more for DTC. I have been saving for about 8 months to attend the school.
...
Income has been slow, selling things I could sell on ebay, scraping metal and finding things to flip for profit anything to get to the school. I was going to ask Jovan for statements on his trades before taking that last step and sending money. I still will ask, if he provides verified trading statements I will take his school. If not then I cant let go of the money that I have worked and saved for all this time. I have lost to much on trading programs before.
...
But just glad I came across this because it was a good read from every side and breakdown and aspect. Not one person swayed me from making a decision. It only clarified the question I was going to ask anyway. Thank you to all that put input in this.

In that case, the review thread has done its job, which is to bring out different opinions and create a discussion. Then you can make a decision, and I hope it turns out to be a good one for you.

Trading is not easy, and it is pretty much guaranteed that you will lose money before you start to make money, if you ever do. Paying money to vendors with a system can be yet another way to lose, and probably we have all had that experience.

I hope your experience works out well for you, and I also hope you will be careful with your money.

Good luck.

Bob.

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  #51 (permalink)
Spokane Washington
 
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kevinkdog View Post
I only know about you what you wrote above, but if you are selling scrap metal to gather funds to trade or get trading education, then trading is likely not for you.

Trading is really tough, and with your background (PTSD, lack of funds, 70% disabled) you are putting yourself in an impossible situation.

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but I hate to see people wanting to trade who should not be trading. I can't see your trading story ending well, and I wish I could.

Mr Kevin has a very good point. You should only risk capital that you can afford to lose. I have been trying to become successful at this for 26 years and have failed for 26 years. Sometimes I think that if I sold a services with buy/sell recommendations that people could become millionaires by taking trades opposite of what I recommend. This isn't easy by any means. I would not do this out of desperation.

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  #52 (permalink)
Joplin, Mo. Jasper
 
 
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kevinkdog View Post
I only know about you what you wrote above, but if you are selling scrap metal to gather funds to trade or get trading education, then trading is likely not for you.

Trading is really tough, and with your background (PTSD, lack of funds, 70% disabled) you are putting yourself in an impossible situation.

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but I hate to see people wanting to trade who should not be trading. I can't see your trading story ending well, and I wish I could.

I appreciate your thoughts and concerns. I have been trading for about 5 years now but continued to fail like most do. But despite my limitations, they affect me in a way that involves people and surroundings. Im very physical and can do alot of things people half my age can not. I say people are Blessed with knowledge power or physical power. ( Smart people or athletic agility people ) I fall on the physical side. Im not stupid but no where near a surgeon LOL. I do have a college degree in Criminal Law. But when I say employment for me is rare, I mean in a aspect of people and my surroundings. Im the one that sets where back is never at compromise and my view is always on where a threat can come from. Just the way I was built and made. That is what makes it hard to work, having people at my back when not looking or able to keep my view toward a area where things can happen. We know this world and how people are and cant deny that there is people with a threat out there at anytime. Yea I could be a security guard or something but thats not me. I know you are not calling be dumb or stupid and understand what you are saying. But I figured I would explain my situation. Plus I like doing physical work. But only to an extent of when I want or can. Scrap Metal i find fun. But I have the mind to achieve what I want. I always hated seeing others who shouldn't be positions of mine and when they cant. I have seen men that are 100% raw toughness crawl in to a ball and never to be back again. But also seen them do it and a when its hot and they are in danger and you have to make them do what they was trained to do, pull themselves together in a instant and then be some of the best people you know you can rely on for your back.
Just saying a position is where you decide if you can take it or not. If a person has training and uses it correctly then why not. Thats what I looking for is training, education so I know what to do and look for. Didn't meant to be so long but just putting some insight on what my situation is. I do appreciate you input and in no way thinking you are calling me stupid or unable, just pointing that the odds are more against me than most and I respect that !

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  #53 (permalink)
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jeliner View Post
The attorney did his due diligence. When I was a student of the DTC program a few years ago, I lived in Arlington, Texas. When they sent the letter to me it had my Washington address, where I am living now. They are just firmly convinced that I am you.


They're still obliged to prove without a doubt that JonnyBoy is you. There's a privacy policy in place on this forum and others. Big Mike can't just release your real name or anyone else's.

If this ever went to court, which I doubt, you could just represent yourself and demand hard evidence that JonnyBoy is actually you. If you're not JonnyBoy, they won't produce that evidence. From a legal website:

Defamation laws protect the reputations of individuals and other entities (such as businesses) from untrue and damaging statements. At the same time, the courts must protect freedom of speech for United States citizens. Libelous statements refer to words that can be seen (typically written and published), while slander occurs when a defamatory statement is spoken or otherwise audible (such as a radio broadcast). These cases often involve public figures or public officials and false statements made about them, but everyone's first amendment rights to free speech must still be protected.

To prove either type of a defamation lawsuit, plaintiffs must prove the following elements:

The defendant made a false and defamatory statement concerning the plaintiff;
The defendant made the defamatory statement to a third party knowing it was false (or they should have known it was false); and
The publisher acted at least negligently in publishing the communication.
Note: In some cases, the plaintiff must prove special damages.

The lawyer's tactic is to shut you up. You're not obliged top shut up about anything unless you're intentionally attempting defamation of character. You are entitled to your opinion about their service. If it's a lousy service, you're entitled to say so.

But if you're not JonnyBoy, you have nothing to worry about. Either they prove it or they don't. Case dismissed.

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  #54 (permalink)
Joplin, Mo. Jasper
 
 
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jeliner View Post
Mr Kevin has a very good point. You should only risk capital that you can afford to lose. I have been trying to become a successful at this for 26 years and have failed for 26 years. Sometimes I think that if I sold a services with buy/sell recommendations that people could become millionaires by taking trades opposite of what I recommend. This isn't easy by any means. I would not do this out of desperation.

I understand as I have lost alot of money and know going desperate at something is a failing experience. I have learned that being desperate is not a way to approach this. Learning then applying is the only way. I just seek education on this because I actually love it despite all the losses and frustrations. I just enjoy the market and have that drive to find a way that works for me. As most have a design that works for them. I just love it and I hate to say that. But when something gets your interest and you have a drive to achieve why stop ? I know I would be very wealthy taking trades of opposite of what I thought also LOL.....

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  #55 (permalink)
Joplin, Mo. Jasper
 
 
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jeliner View Post
Hello Mr Ty:

I was a past student of Mr Jovan, back some 2+ years ago. If I am not mistaken one of his Coaches, Mr Lane was part of my class as well. I have failed at trading since 1994 and spend an average of 20-30k per year since 1994 on trading systems and failed attempts at trying be be a trader. I have bought it all - pretty much every piece of software and program for 26years. I have yet to find something that works. Personally, I think the people who really know how to make a living at this don't really teach it, and I don't blame them - because I would probably be their worst student.

When I discovered DTC, it was called Family First and Mr Jovan was the only coach. His program comes in two parts: technical analysis and mental aptitude. Quite frankly, I could never get into the mental aptitude part of his program, it was too abstract for someone with an evidenced-based, concrete perspective. So, I focused on trying to understand his indicators and trading plan.

Along with being a medical professional, I am pretty OK at coding. So, I am always working on coding projects (ie datamining) to test trading perspectives that I come up with, read about or notice. I had a set of indicators that worked with MACD to color my graph bars and was using a Liner-regression intercept price cross over as a entry signal. There were two things unique about DTC that I liked, the multi-time frame indicator (he called the hawk - which is really the eagle on a higher time frame) and the ribbon appearance he used in his indicator, which come to find out was created by someone else. So, while I was working on trying to make my Linear regression intercept work on multiple time frames, I sought help on the NinjaTrader forums. The data coming from multi-version indicator didn't match the data on the higher time frame chart. While I was working on this side project while in the DTC class, Mr Jovan accused me of trying to steal his software and he booted me from the program. he also turned off my indicators on NinjaTrader7 as well. When he did so, he refunded 80% of what I paid and I never heard from him or saw his indicators since ... until the threat of a lawsuit as mentioned in this thread.

I can tell you that I personally never got anywhere with his system - but this is coming from a point of view of a person who has bought pretty much everything and failed for the last 26 years. This is my take on his system and my history and experience with the company and its about as much input as I can give. If I would have had more time to play with it, maybe I could have gotten someplace with the system - maybe not. Because of my personal negative history, I would prefer not to explore that option.

The next thing that I am about to look at is JigSaw, its about 1700$ (much cheaper than DTC) and comes with training. I think training and education is what I need more than anything at this point. I really don't know anything about JigSaw yet, but there isnt much out there left I have not tried. I have been kinda putting off looking at it because Book Reading appears to be complicated and very fast paced. We will see.

Understand very much. I will just seek education from a person instead of a so called company, I have looked at JigSaw a little but haven't researched it yet. There is a few out there with passion to mentor someone. I will be looking for that person.

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  #56 (permalink)
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forgiven View Post
ok jackass , why don t you settle it all here and now. if you can really trade , post 3 years of audited brokerage statements showing the world you can really trade. if you can not do that , shut your trap, know one on here believes one word you say. making money talks and B.S. walks.

With respect, cool your jets here please. To be fair, @RJay is not claiming to be a trader. He only licenses his indicators to DTC. He needs to remain out of conversations with respect to the trading side of things over at DTC.

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  #57 (permalink)
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JonnyBoy View Post
With respect, cool your jets here please. To be fair, @RJay is not claiming to be a trader. He only licenses his indicators to DTC. He needs to remain out of conversations with respect to the trading side of things over at DTC.

i removed the post out of respect for all you re hard work ! sorry

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  #58 (permalink)
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forgiven View Post
i removed the post out of respect for all you re hard work ! sorry

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  #59 (permalink)
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you re correct of course , but the vendor implied we are bad people .

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  #60 (permalink)
SpeculatorSeth
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The thing that I find telling about situations like this is that such vendors are always dishonest when they don't need to be. I post my trading on Youtube, and I was probably one of the first to do it. I'm not always trading live, and I try to be clear about that with my audience. I tell viewers to just assume it is sim. In fact, I actually try to hide it from my audience when I'm trading live because I have an irrational fear of snipers trying to screw up the trade. Sometimes I do well, sometimes I do awful. I think I know a few things that provide edge, but I don't have it all figured out. I can describe how I've been doing lately, but there's no way to know if that performance will continue into the future.

It's the same with selling indicators. Nothing wrong with selling indicators. Even if it's just based on something else or it's an enhancement of a common indicator. Just sell it for a fair price. You don't have to make any claims or have hyped up marketing. You just tell people what it is trying to do, let them try it out themselves, and if they find value in it they'll pay for it. Just look at how much value you get out of LizardIndicators. I'm sure he does quite well with it, and he should because it is a good product.

But some vendors just cannot help themselves. They are always trying to sell $15k packages, and making the most outrageous claims about their performance. I don't think they can help it. I see the same pattern over and over again, and there's a perfect example in jeliner's post:


jeliner View Post
I would get my weekly calls that berated me and belittle me because my demands from the universe was not convincing enough. Every call and training session we were require to listen to him command the universe to

It is extremely common in these kinds of scams for the mentor to be verbally abusive. I think they view their success as being dependent on their students being successful, and lash out at the student when it doesn't work out. I don't know if that's psychopathy or narcissism or what, but it seems like I'm seeing it every day now.

Which is why it brings me so much joy to see efforts from people like JonnyBoy. I'm really quite impressed with the information presented in this thread, and I wish we saw it more often. TradingSchools always did a good job with this stuff, but for some reason we aren't seeing as much from them despite the scams being at an all time high. I have a big long list of YouTube channels and TikTok users that could use a similar treatment. These people are constantly spamming and harassing our communities. I've experienced a significant amount of personal harassment myself. I keep thinking that eventually the law will catch up to such schemes, or that at the very least YouTube would do something. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that anyone actually cares.

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  #61 (permalink)
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@TWDsje

I care! I've devoted the last 10+ years of my life to trying to educate people, the right way. Not get rich quick YouTube 5k DOM videos and trading rooms.

We are far and few, but this entire community exists for this purpose. Too many others can be bought and paid for, as others have named.

Many vendors hate me. I mean pure hatred. You've been around long enough to hear me mention the death threats I've received, people talking about murdering my dogs, and the usual stuff like reporting me to IRS or making up crazy stuff like I fled the country due to some illegal activity.

There are many vendors that truly believe what they are selling is beneficial. Most of the time, if they are good people, they simply lack the experience to realize what they are selling is garbage. In other words, it's good intentions but bad result.

But, there are others that I must really try and bite my tongue to only describe as untruthful, bad, deceptive people, that have just one intention -- scam people out of as much money as possible.

Everyone here can decide which is which, our community helps lay everything out to reach your decisions. But when words fly around like "teach you to become a millionaire" and YouTube videos showing fake profits while pretending it's cash, those people simply deserve no less than prison, plain and simple.

As always, I'm proud of our community and what we represent together. It's hard work to combat get rich quick with facts and realistic expectations.

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  #62 (permalink)
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Yes Big Mike you said what I was going to say I been doing thing we all trading for 25 years made some lost some but I have learned to do my own thing and by far better for it—the good the bad and the ugly my 🎩 off to you Mike

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  #63 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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jeliner View Post
Mr Kevin has a very good point. You should only risk capital that you can afford to lose. I have been trying to become successful at this for 26 years and have failed for 26 years. Sometimes I think that if I sold a services with buy/sell recommendations that people could become millionaires by taking trades opposite of what I recommend. This isn't easy by any means. I would not do this out of desperation.

I'm no lawyer, but if you can get free/pro-bono representation, this would be a great thing to go to court with this guy. During the discovery phase, you could ask for ALL his trading records, ask for proof of all his claims, etc.

I would think your lawyer could say this in a reply (basically "bring it on!") and this whole mess goes away.

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  #64 (permalink)
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This is off the main topic, however, due to the interest this thread will generate from those who are just now learning about such issues in principle, it can be helpful when considering (let alone paying for) examples of "trades" on YouTube, especially as "insurance" from those who, when finally challenged, delete their YouTube content.

https://www.4kdownload.com/products/product-videodownloader

It allows one to download any YouTube video to our own PC. For ones you need to subscribe, it handles those, too.

Turn it on, and soon after a new video is posted, it's downloaded to your PC (or NAS, etc.). You can also simply copy/paste the video's URL and it will immediately download it, if you want to run it ad hoc.

I have no association with the vendor, other than as a one-time customer who paid $45 for the premium version and who has been keeping a record of videos posted by (so far) reputable advisors for a while.

(Now I'll watch myself get named in the lawsuit for simply posting on this particular thread.)

As another poster wrote, yeah, bring it.

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  #65 (permalink)
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Mailmon View Post
This is off the main topic, however, due to the interest this thread will generate from those who are just now learning about such issues in principle, it can be helpful when considering (let alone paying for) examples of "trades" on YouTube, especially as "insurance" from those who, when finally challenged, delete their YouTube content.

https://www.4kdownload.com/products/product-videodownloader

It allows one to download any YouTube video to our own PC. For ones you need to subscribe, it handles those, too.

Turn it on, and soon after a new video is posted, it's downloaded to your PC (or NAS, etc.). You can also simply copy/paste the video's URL and it will immediately download it, if you want to run it ad hoc.

I have no association with the vendor, other than as a one-time customer who paid $45 for the premium version and who has been keeping a record of videos posted by (so far) reputable advisors for a while.

(Now I'll watch myself get named in the lawsuit for simply posting on this particular thread.)

As another poster wrote, yeah, bring it.

Good idea. And you guys should share the archives here for safe keeping. The truth is, too many vendors pull this stunt of deleting their website/channel after they build a negative reputation. Then they start over with a new name.

Mike

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  #66 (permalink)
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Did anyone notice that the title of the complaint, had not one, but two spelling mistakes ?

1) Day Tading Coach instead of Day Trading Coach

2) Future.io instead of Futures.io

Omigosh, his counsel is so sloppy, amateurish.....and bogus.

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  #67 (permalink)
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If DTC is making money on SIM account he is already better than 95% coaches out there

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  #68 (permalink)
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LastDino View Post
Its always sad to see freely available indicators being repackaged and sold to masses. It is very unfortunate that honest hard work of someone else is used to commit such a frauds.

Thanks Jonny for bringing this to light.

Many other vendors do the same thing. I know a vendor who sells a "momentum" indicator for $250 that is freely available and comes with source code for Sierra Charts. They claim they wrote it themselves.

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Did anyone notice that the title of the complaint, had not one, but two spelling mistakes ?

1) Day Tading Coach instead of Day Trading Coach

2) Future.io instead of Futures.io

Omigosh, his counsel is so sloppy, amateurish.....and bogus.

The other telling thig is that slander is verbal, libel is written.

Anyone actually reach out to this firm to see if, indeed, this is legit? It's a crime to falsify communication from an attorney, or falsely hold oneself out to be an attorney when one is not.

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  #70 (permalink)
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n7ekg View Post
The other telling thig is that slander is verbal, libel is written.

Anyone actually reach out to this firm to see if, indeed, this is legit? It's a crime to falsify communication from an attorney, or falsely hold oneself out to be an attorney when one is not.

Like @kevinkdog, I can't imagine this guy never in a million years would reveal his legal name, address, and trading records, in an actual lawsuit.

Anyone can buy an internet attorney to write a letter. I've received my share, and as any long term member would remember, AMP Futures is the most famous one. Their lawsuit was not entirely dissimilar to this thread actually, as I remember it, they also wanted "false" information to be removed from our website. $20,000 or so later in attorney fees, the site (and I) won the lawsuit.



They lost.

Sucks that we would have to spend that kind of money to defend ourselves. Think of how many more families we could have helped with our charity drives with that kind of money!

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  #71 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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n7ekg View Post
The other telling thig is that slander is verbal, libel is written.

Anyone actually reach out to this firm to see if, indeed, this is legit? It's a crime to falsify communication from an attorney, or falsely hold oneself out to be an attorney when one is not.

Ouch, what a burn on them. That IMO is very sloppy for a law firm, in fact that is quite incredible actually.

My guess is (as I have stated before) they very likely cringed at having to write that C&S. They know it has no real legal standing and probably wanted it out the door as quickly as they could.

The law firm is legit though. I live here in Calgary so I know it exists.

Ryan Franzen (who write the C&D to the person they thought was me) is on their website as a partner.

https://www.mcleod-law.com/

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  #72 (permalink)
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LastDino View Post
Its always sad to see freely available indicators being repackaged and sold to masses. It is very unfortunate that honest hard work of someone else is used to commit such a frauds.


n7ekg View Post
Many other vendors do the same thing. I know a vendor who sells a "momentum" indicator for $250 that is freely available and comes with source code for Sierra Charts. They claim they wrote it themselves.

There are, after all, only so many different indicators. Yes, there is a huge number of them, but, for example, how significant are the differences between the various moving average types? And throw in the other ways of smoothing price action too. There are some slight differences, but after you've seen a bunch of them, they start to look and act and work pretty much the same. How many totally different oscillators can you put down below the price panel? Again, there is a huge number of them, but after a while, how many actual useful differences are there? Perhaps a few, but they do start to look alike after a while.... and one can go on about any others.

You can make them pretty with colors or arrows or ring bells or do anything else, but are there actually all that many truly different things that you can do with them? No. Because there aren't that many actual differences.

But in that case, can you sell your super indicator system based on its actual performance being much better than the last one? Since it won't be, the answer is also "No." Of course, many of them are not going to really work at all, if really traded in real time, live, with money.

So if they can't be sold with truth, they are going to be sold with BS. Part of the BS is to dress up something old as something brand new.

Some vendors may have useful stuff. But any vendor that is promising riches in exchange for really large amounts of money does not. They simply don't have anything that is all that special.

Bob.

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  #73 (permalink)
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Thank you to the forum member who sounded out his suspicions about financial course trainer. He has potentially saved many people, if indeed the trainer is a fraud.

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  #74 (permalink)
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To cut a long story short, I have some really good contacts in Calgary. Most of these are through my wife and my ex-institution trading friend whom I have a financial venture with. Regardless to say, I know a few people. I am not bragging about this, it just fits into the next part.

I was just speaking with somebody and perhaps the penny dropped, then again maybe it didn't. It maybe a miss but I don't think so! The following paragraphs are alleged to be on safe side of legal but I believe this to be fact.

Ryan Franzen (the lawyer that sent the C&D to the wrong JonnyBoy) is a member of Day Trading Coach.

This is where the penny dropped for me. I mean why would a law firm send out a huff and puff C&D that has no real legal standing. Why? Because Jovan knew the lawyer!

Lawyers hate writing those baseless letters, so now this all fits together. He used Ryan as a 'friend' in the DTC program to concoct a baseless C&S letter - because a ''regular'' lawyer would unlikely even touch it.

I honestly wonder what his partners at the firm would think? Sending a C&S letter to the wrong person without any due diligence, potentially using legitimate legal methods unethically to get the recipients new address in the US as DTC only had his old one - based on an incorrect hunch from Jovan.

This really stinks people. A lawyer is meant to be a consummate professional. @jeliner - this should be additional confirmation that the C&S is a meaningless threat.

I allege that is harassment by Ryan Franzen at McLeod Law in Calgary.

I highly recommended you contact the law society in Alberta and make a formal complaint against McLeod Law and Ryan Franzen.

https://www.lawcentralalberta.ca/en/help/lawyer-complaints.

"The complaints process is initiated when a lawyer’s actions may have breached the Code of Professional Conduct that governs how lawyers are to conduct themselves in their practice."

PS - I just got sent the evidence. I won't post until necessary. The one thing that baffles me is...why would a lawyer be a member of a trading program? Baffling.

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  #75 (permalink)
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Screw it, I think it's necessary.

Ryan's involvement in DTC confirmed. Yeah, we all know Trust Pilot is pay-to-play but still, here it is in black and white. I have a further piece of evidence too that I'll save for another day. Really this time


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  #76 (permalink)
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JonnyBoy View Post

Ryan Franzen (the lawyer that sent the C&D to the wrong JonnyBoy) is a member of Day Trading Coach.

This is where the penny dropped for me. I mean why would a law firm send out a huff and puff C&D that has no real legal standing. Why? Because Jovan knew the lawyer!



There was a Ryan that was in my class at DTC - Jay Ryan, but i don't think these are the same person. Jay Ryan was the one who first told me about Family First Dynasty - now known as DTC.

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  #77 (permalink)
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jeliner View Post
There was a Ryan that was in my class at DTC - Jay Ryan, but i don't think these are the same person. Jay Ryan was the one who first told me about Family First Dynasty - now known as DTC.

Don't get confused here. Ryan Franzen from Mcleod Law, Calgary, Alberta (the lawyer that sent you the C&D) is a member of DTC. I have additional evidence (on top of the Trust Pilot screen grab) that further proves this. Forget about this other Ryan guy. He is irrelevant.

So, not only did Ryan Franzen from Mcleod Law, Calgary, Alberta (the lawyer that sent you the C&D) incorrectly implicate you and essentially harass you with a C&D - he used as yet undetermined means to find your new address in the US. As part of this witch hunt, he in fact hunted down the wrong person...plus of course, throw in a sprinkling of conflict of interest by Ryan Franzen being a member of DTC - and you have the absolute right to file a complaint with the law society in Alberta.

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  #78 (permalink)
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If it's ok with the moderators, can we see the email headers from "Ryan Franzen"?

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  #79 (permalink)
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MiamiTrader View Post
If it's ok with the moderators, can we see the email headers from "Ryan Franzen"?

You mean this from the C&D? The complete C&D is a thread up the page.


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  #80 (permalink)
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JonnyBoy View Post
Well, I would say that this is quite an embarrassing position DTC and their lawyers have manoeuvred themselves into. Talk about a lack of due diligence. You are not me and I am not you.

Thank you for posting this. This appears to be typical posturing from a legal perspective in a bid to try and salvage some credibility. They have been exposed and they don't like it. IMO this has only further exacerbated any issues and will cause more harm to them rather than letting a thread on a forum die in the ether.



Correct. The licensing of indicators is not illegal. Nobody said it was. As stated above, Jovan took the NT7 indicators distributed by @Fat Tails (under the GNU General Public License) probably from this forum and changed their name to fit under the umbrella of Golden Falcon Trading Pro. This is a fact. I have concrete evidence that the original @Fat Tails indicators were used as part of Family First Dynasty which later morphed into Day Trading Coach.

Ray from https://www.innovative-trading-solutions-online.com/new/ aka @RJay (on FIO) is used by DTC as their ''IT expert" to install the DTC suite of indicators on your machine via Team Viewer. So, I expect (not confirmed) that he was also involved in coding up their entire Golden Falcon Trading Pro suite, essentially taking the NT7 @Fat Tails suite of indicators he was given and updating them to NT8 and renaming them in the process. Only he will be able to confirm or deny his involvement with DTC. To be fair to him it is/was just another coding job but to the best of my knowledge he is still involved with DTC to this date. I have seen him read this thread on a number of occasions.

Nobody said repackaging indicators was illegal. Unethical? You bet.



Correct. The demonstration or teaching of trading through the use of a simulator is not illegal. Nobody said it was. As stated above, the DTC trades shown were trades taken but not from a LIVE real dollar account. They may have been taken from a LIVE feed, but not a LIVE real dollar account. Their YouTube videos have [LIVE TRADING] or words to that effect which may lead people to believe they were taken from a LIVE real dollar account. They were not.

The DOM doesn't lie. The trades discussed in this thread were taken on a SIM account. This is a fact and has been verified through a number of parties including NinjaTrader themselves. Why did DTC go to the extent within NinjaTrader to change the colour of the SIM DOM to that of a LIVE DOM? Was it to fool people into thinking they were trading on a LIVE feed from a LIVE dollar account? One can only wonder.

If they are able to provide brokerage statements AND the CME routing number (for me to verify) for any of the trades discussed in this thread, it would be fair to remove the post. We all receive daily brokerage statements, so it wouldn't be hard to find or for them to post after each YouTube video. If you really want people to believe you are trading with real dollars from a live account - just post your brokerage statement as part of the YouTube video - the problem is you can only do this when trading from a live account. And herein lies the issue.

Extremely well writen post JonnyBoy.

Thank you

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  #81 (permalink)
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You mean this from the C&D?


Not exactly. Every email includes mail server / ip address info that can be used to trace back the origin of the email. Anyone can send a fake email from "Ryan Franzen". See attached example.


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  #82 (permalink)
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JonnyBoy View Post
And if anybody had any doubts this reaffirms everything I have been saying.

DTC posted a video on November 03, 2020 named "DayTrading.Coach Wednesday October 28 2020 1 long trade 2 minutes 2 $200. 00"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQirjg6FaVU

Of course the usual story here. Jovan supposedly has 20 LMT order contracts resting at 1557.50. The sell side ladder only has (at the time of the snapshot) 10 resting limit orders at this price. So, if he was trading from a LIVE dollar account, the number of resting limit orders would be reflected in the order book. I.E it should read 30, but it doesn't because the trade by DTC was taken in SIM. This cannot be disputed. It is how the order book works and how the CME exchange works. This is a fact.

So, DTC have the DOM coloured (in NT) as if they are trading from a LIVE account (you have to go and change this setting yourself in NT) using real dollars and the title of the video is "DayTrading.Coach Wednesday October 28 2020 1 long trade 2 minutes 2 $200. 00".

This is the setting in NT where you can change the DOM to appear the same colour as if you are trading from a LIVE account.




Oh hey thats how you change that. I couldn't find.

Kudos again JonnyBoy and thank you.

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  #83 (permalink)
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It appears the user who received the email is using Outlook. Here are instructions for getting access to the email header info. If it's ok with the mods here, you can copy and paste that info here to further analyze.

https://www.ablebits.com/office-addins-blog/2013/08/07/view-outlook-email-headers/

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  #84 (permalink)
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If it's ok with the moderators, can we see the email headers from "Ryan Franzen"?

The header of the email I received from Mr Ryan containing the letter threating a law suit is below.... I blocked my email address to protected my self from a spam bomb - otherwise the rest remains unedited. The section I changed in highlighted in red

<<EDIT>> Header text deleted and place in txt file because of formatting concerns

Attached Files
Register to download File Type: txt eMailHeader.txt (6.1 KB, 31 views)
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  #85 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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@jeliner - the long text threads throws the formatting off.

Can you please delete this post and attach it is a .txt file please?

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  #86 (permalink)
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It looks legit to me. They're using Microsoft email servers and SPF passes. See more info below:

mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass

Sent From:
x-originating-ip: [64.141.30.62]
IP: 64.141.30.62
Decimal: 1082990142
Hostname: h64-141-30-62.bigpipeinc.com
ASN: 6327
ISP: Shaw Communications
Organization: Shaw Communications
Services: None detected
Type: Broadband
Assignment: Likely Static IP
Blacklist:
Continent: North America
Country: Canada ca flag
State/Region: Alberta
City: Calgary
Latitude: 50.9157 (50° 54′ 56.52″ N)
Longitude: -113.892 (113° 53′ 31.20″ W)
Postal Code: T3S

To Server
IP: 40.107.67.134
Decimal: 678118278
Hostname: mail-eopbgr670134.outbound.protection.outlook.com
ASN: 8075
ISP: Microsoft Corporation
Organization: Microsoft Azure
Services: Likely mail server
Type: Corporate
Assignment: Likely Static IP
Blacklist:
Continent: North America
Country: Canada ca flag
State/Region: Ontario
City: Toronto
Latitude: 43.6644 (43° 39′ 51.84″ N)
Longitude: -79.4195 (79° 25′ 10.20″ W)
Postal Code: M6G

Received:
IP: 64.79.170.140
Decimal: 1078962828
Hostname: sm10.internetmailserver.net
ASN: 14415
ISP: CenturyLink
Organization: Host Collective
Services: Likely mail server
Type: Corporate
Assignment: Likely Static IP
Blacklist:
Continent: North America
Country: United States us flag
Latitude: 37.751 (37° 45′ 3.60″ N)
Longitude: -97.822 (97° 49′ 19.20″ W)

Company Website Info:
IP: 99.79.85.250
Decimal: 1666143738
Hostname: ec2-99-79-85-250.ca-central-1.compute.amazonaws.com
ASN: 16509
ISP: Amazon.com
Organization: Amazon.com
Services: None detected
Type: Corporate
Assignment: Likely Static IP
Blacklist:
Continent: North America
Country: Canada ca flag
State/Region: Quebec
City: Montreal
Latitude: 45.4995 (45° 29′ 58.20″ N)
Longitude: -73.5848 (73° 35′ 5.28″ W)
Postal Code: H3G

Company DNS Record Info:
A
Type Domain Name Address TTL
A mcleod-law.com 99.79.85.250 119
MX
Type Pref Domain Name Hostname TTL
MX 0 mcleod-law.com mcleodlaw-com01e.mail.protection.outlook.com 299

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  #87 (permalink)
Joplin, Mo. Jasper
 
 
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This is what happens when the people are smarter than the vendor and his known partner the attorney. You get schooled yourself on how smart you think you are LOL..

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  #88 (permalink)
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JonnyBoy View Post
Don't get confused here. Ryan Franzen from Mcleod Law, Calgary, Alberta (the lawyer that sent you the C&D) is a member of DTC. I have additional evidence (on top of the Trust Pilot screen grab) that further proves this. Forget about this other Ryan guy. He is irrelevant.

So, not only did Ryan Franzen from Mcleod Law, Calgary, Alberta (the lawyer that sent you the C&D) incorrectly implicate you and essentially harass you with a C&D - he used as yet undetermined means to find your new address in the US. As part of this witch hunt, he in fact hunted down the wrong person...plus of course, throw in a sprinkling of conflict of interest by Ryan Franzen being a member of DTC - and you have the absolute right to file a complaint with the law society in Alberta.

Amazing work JonnyBoy!

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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  #89 (permalink)
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Ouch, what a burn on them. That IMO is very sloppy for a law firm, in fact that is quite incredible actually.

My guess is (as I have stated before) they very likely cringed at having to write that C&S. They know it has no real legal standing and probably wanted it out the door as quickly as they could.

The law firm is legit though. I live here in Calgary so I know it exists.

Ryan Franzen (who write the C&D to the person they thought was me) is on their website as a partner.

https://www.mcleod-law.com/

Maybe Ryan did it pro bono on company letterhead?

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  #90 (permalink)
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JonnyBoy View Post
I honestly wonder what his partners at the firm would think? Sending a C&S letter to the wrong person without any due diligence, potentially using legitimate legal methods unethically to get the recipients new address in the US as DTC only had his old one - based on an incorrect hunch from Jovan.

This really stinks people. A lawyer is meant to be a consummate professional. @jeliner - this should be additional confirmation that the C&S is a meaningless threat.

I allege that is harassment by Ryan Franzen at McLeod Law in Calgary.

I highly recommended you contact the law society in Alberta and make a formal complaint against McLeod Law and Ryan Franzen.

OR...., you can send an email straight to the COO https://www.mcleod-law.com/professionals/john-hawke-cpa-cma-mba/ so he can see how his firm is being well represented here.

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  #91 (permalink)
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Thank you @JonnyBoy and all who have contributed to this post. It is very important to bring out to the open these predators who lie to uninformed potential traders. I hope more can be found and that we become aware of them to avoid them.

JT

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  #92 (permalink)
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I got sent an email via @Big Mike and @bobwest. This email was from a new FIO user that just signed up. They couldn't send me a DM directly until they have made a certain number of forum posts.

This person is a current member of Day Trading Coach. It was quite a long email which I will try to parse through today and respond. In the meantime I wanted to address the LMT order question, this time for the RTY instrument itself. This is the instrument that DTC trades.

In the first video you can see my LMT order placement of 4 contracts on a LIVE feed using a REAL dollar account on the RTY instrument. You can see the RTY order book tick up by 4 contracts when my real limit order reaches the exchange, and tick down by 4 contracts when I remove them.

In the second video you can see my LMT order placement of 20 contracts on a LIVE feed using SIM dollars (I have actually seen Jovan trade up to 24 contracts on the RTY believe it or not). The order book isn't updated to reflect this LMT order position because the position only exists on my local SIM account.

In the third video you can see my LMT order placement of 20 contracts on a LIVE feed using SIM dollars, but this time I have changed the DOM colour to appear like I am trading from a REAL dollar account. Of course, same as above the order book isn't modified because the position isn't real as it only exists on my local SIM account.

If you are trading an obscure instrument sometimes the exchange does not support limit orders. In these cases the order would rest at the broker servers. However, limit orders are supported on the CME, so if trading futures on the CME (whatever the instrument happens to be including the RTY), the market depth should reflect any active LMT profit target order or any LMT order that is placed.

Pure order flow only practitioners (no chart, only a DOM) use the order book in various ways. One of these ways to keep track of LMT orders (resting orders) in the book. How many have been stacked or pulled across the 10 price levels. A limit order is a resting order meaning that it is only the intent to take or exit a position, but with the CME exchange, limit orders reside in the order book at the exchange and therefore the order book should reflect this.

One important note. If I, NinjaTrader and my broker are completely wrong about this, the simplest solution would be for DTC to create an account on FIO (they probably have a stealth account anyway) and just post a weeks worth of trading videos along with the corresponding brokerage statements to back it up. They have had plenty of time to do this.

The question is, why haven't they?

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Attached Files
Register to download File Type: mp4 RTY Live Trading Account REAL LMT Order Placement.mp4 (682.9 KB, 75 views)
Register to download File Type: mp4 RTY Live Trading Account SIM LMT Order Placement.mp4 (813.6 KB, 20 views)
Register to download File Type: mp4 RTY Live Trading Account SIM LMT Order Placement LIVE DOM Colour.mp4 (474.5 KB, 17 views)
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  #93 (permalink)
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jeliner View Post
Maybe Ryan did it pro bono on company letterhead?

That would be my guess. Jovan used McLeod Law to register his business as per the post tagged below. Perhaps they already knew each other, perhaps they became friends whilst sorting out the legal paperwork, perhaps he was just another DTC punter who happened to be a lawyer or perhaps he is just a shill for Jovan and hasn't actually taken the DTC course himself. Who the hell knows.

What is still very odd is why a lawyer (a partner to boot and presumably full time at the law firm) who has the potential to pull $150k ++ CAD per year in salary, would want to become a day trader. Of course everybody has their reasons and day traders come from all walks of life but this still doesn't smell right especially because the DTC ''boot camp'' is 90 days long. A difficult thing to manage one might say whilst working a full time job.

Anyway, just speculating with the above statements, nothing more than that.


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  #94 (permalink)
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MiamiTrader View Post
OR...., you can send an email straight to the COO https://www.mcleod-law.com/professionals/john-hawke-cpa-cma-mba/ so he can see how his firm is being well represented here.

This isn't for me to do. I'll leave that conversation up to the Law Society of Alberta.


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  #95 (permalink)
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JonnyBoy View Post
I got sent an email via @Big Mike and @bobwest.

In the second video you can see my LMT order placement of 20 contracts on a LIVE feed using SIM dollars (I have actually seen Jovan trade up to 24 contracts on the RTY believe it or not). The order book isn't updated to reflect this LMT order position because the position only exists on my local SIM account.

when I first ran into this program under the name Family First Dynasty, Mr Jovan would trade in lots of 30. I seen him do 60 contracts on several occasions.

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JonnyBoy View Post
I wanted to address the LMT order question, this time for the RTY instrument itself. This is the instrument that DTC trades.

In the first video you can see my LMT order placement of 4 contracts on a LIVE feed using a REAL dollar account on the RTY instrument. You can see the RTY order book tick up by 4 contracts when my real limit order reaches the exchange, and tick down by 4 contracts when I remove them.

In the second video you can see my LMT order placement of 20 contracts on a LIVE feed using SIM dollars (I have actually seen Jovan trade up to 24 contracts on the RTY believe it or not). The order book isn't updated to reflect this LMT order position because the position only exists on my local SIM account.

In the third video you can see my LMT order placement of 20 contracts on a LIVE feed using SIM dollars, but this time I have changed the DOM colour to appear like I am trading from a REAL dollar account. Of course, same as above the order book isn't modified because the position isn't real as it only exists on my local SIM account.

This method has been used many times in the past to detect an online trader who says he is making real trades when in fact he is not. It always works, because the real trades have to be shown in the exchange's order book, as has been shown in the videos. Sim trades have to not be shown in the order book, because they never get there. They stay on the user's computer and are not entered on the exchange for others to trade against, so they can never be actually executed in the real world. Simulated orders and simulated executions are simulated only. Very simple.

These examples cover limit orders, which are entered at a specific price and which sit on the book until they can be matched to an incoming order. Market orders will show up on the book also, but small ones will disappear quickly against offsetting orders and not be as evident. However, a huge market order, such as 20 (or 60) will have to be matched in chunks against a lot of resting smaller orders, and not necessarily go in without slippage. I looked back at @JonnyBoy's early posts to see how these guys trade, and they have target orders that take them out at their target price, which are also resting limit orders that, if real, will be on the book waiting for price to get there. But a simulated target order for a simulated trade will not.

The question this pertains to whether there is anything wrong with sim trading, and of course there is not. There is nothing at all wrong with sim trading as a practice method. But it is not real trading, with actual money put at risk. It is a video game.

I am both amazingly brave when playing this kind of video game, because I literally cannot lose, and I also can select the good game-type trades out of all of those I may have recorded, and play only those recordings for someone and appear to be a much better trader than I am. Since I never had any money at risk, I can afford to make and record as many simulated trades as I like, and pick the recordings of the good ones to show. This is one way I can afford the risk of making apparent trades with, for example, 20 contracts -- it's because I have no risk at all.

If I do this to convince someone to buy a product I sell, this is both dishonest and very dangerous to the potential customer, who would naturally think he was watching the trading of someone who is worth learning from.

Since a vendor who shows trade recordings is always showing them to convince a potential customer how good the vendor is at trading, it always carries the message that these are real trades.... it certainly is never the vendor's message that "These trades are just the good simulated trades we made, and we aren't going to show you all the ones that didn't work out."

I wanted to go into this just in case anyone reading this thread did not understand quite what the issue is with whether the trades are live (genuine) or sim (not genuine.) It has to do with whether a vendor is honestly representing himself or not.

Bob.

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  #97 (permalink)
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jeliner View Post
when I first ran into this program under the name Family First Dynasty, Mr Jovan would trade in lots of 30. I seen him do 60 contracts on several occasions.

I am familiar with that as well, although not many videos exist from his Family First Dynasty days, although I have a few

What you have to consider here is that the RTY is a very thin market. What I mean by that is this, there is not a huge amount of liquidity vs. say that of the ES. You can see this for yourself on the DOM. The number of resting limit orders on the RTY sitting at any price level within 10 levels deep of the current traded price (on both the buy and sell side) rarely get above 30. The ''average'' appears to be in the teens, sometimes lower.

Remember, resting limit orders are sitting in the book as an intent to buy or sell only. They can be pulled at any time provided they were not filled. A market order (which Jovan typically uses to get an entry) will be filled instantly at the best available price.

Now here is the rub. If a trader hits the market button for a 30 contract position in the RTY using a real dollar account, the exchange will try and match those 30 orders against opposing orders to fill them at the best available price. With that many contracts in a thin (low liquidity) instrument you in all likely hood will get slippage. Meaning that the exchange couldn't match your order at a single price level and had to fill from the next best available price - which might be a tick or 2 or 3 in either direction. For better or worse I guess you could say.

Now, when I see Jovan (and other Coaches) entering a market position with a large disproportionate number of contracts vs. the quantity of real resting orders at that price level he is going market on, he is not getting any slippage. You can be lucky on occasion yes, but in reality sweeping the entire book on a single price level every time and not spilling over to another price level to soak up your remaining contracts as additional fills is highly unlikely in a thinly traded market.

In addition, it is also unlikely to get a limit order filled (his supposed profit targets for example) without price penetrating that price level and sweeping the book clean. It does happen occasionally when I trade the ES, but that is more about queue position luck than intent. And as the ES is a 'thicker' market (more liquidity) I can go market and get my contracts filled at a single price level but only because the liquidity is present and the exchange doesn't have any issue matching my order at a single price level.

For traders faking it on the ES, the above is incredibly difficult to spot. The RTY however is much easier as I have laid out.

I am a little fuzzy on this (so somebody please correct me if I am wrong) - but if Jovan was really trading the RTY live with that number of contracts and all of his students were too (when they are out of their SIM phase...lol) he could quite easily go to the exchange/broker and request he is a market maker and will provide additional liquidity (via his and his students trades) and hence receive the benefits of that. Again - I am not 100% clear on this so somebody with much more knowledge can weigh in.

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  #98 (permalink)
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bobwest View Post
This method has been used many times in the past to detect an online trader who says he is making real trades when in fact he is not. It always works, because the real trades have to be shown in the exchange's order book, as has been shown in the videos. Sim trades have to not be shown in the order book, because they never get there. They stay on the user's computer and are not entered on the exchange for others to trade against, so they can never be actually executed in the real world. Simulated orders and simulated executions are simulated only. Very simple.

These examples cover limit orders, which are entered at a specific price and which sit on the book until they can be matched to an incoming order. Market orders will show up on the book also, but small ones will disappear quickly against offsetting orders and not be as evident. However, a huge market order, such as 20 (or 60) will have to be matched in chunks against a lot of resting smaller orders, and not necessarily go in without slippage. I looked back at @JonnyBoy's early posts to see how these guys trade, and they have target orders that take them out at their target price, which are also resting limit orders that, if real, will be on the book waiting for price to get there. But a simulated target order for a simulated trade will not.

The question this pertains to whether there is anything wrong with sim trading, and of course there is not. There is nothing at all wrong with sim trading as a practice method. But it is not real trading, with actual money put at risk. It is a video game.

I am both amazingly brave when playing this kind of video game, because I literally cannot lose, and I also can select the good game-type trades out of all of those I may have recorded, and play only those recordings for someone and appear to be a much better trader than I am. Since I never had any money at risk, I can afford to make and record as many simulated trades as I like, and pick the recordings of the good ones to show. This is one way I can afford the risk of making apparent trades with, for example, 20 contracts -- it's because I have no risk at all.

If I do this to convince someone to buy a product I sell, this is both dishonest and very dangerous to the potential customer, who would naturally think he was watching the trading of someone who is worth learning from.

Since a vendor who shows trade recordings is always showing them to convince a potential customer how good the vendor is at trading, it always carries the message that these are real trades.... it certainly is never the vendor's message that "These trades are just the good simulated trades we made, and we aren't going to show you all the ones that didn't work out."

I wanted to go into this just in case anyone reading this thread did not understand quite what the issue is with whether the trades are live (genuine) or sim (not genuine.) It has to do with whether a vendor is honestly representing himself or not.

Bob.

Brilliant Bob. I was replying to another post in this thread and we addressed the same things. You just have an excellent and concise way to portray all the information that needs to be said in all of your posts.

Now, I have to address that email that was received...

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  #99 (permalink)
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I am really impressed by the responses and support from the FIO team and community. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Appreciate the responses from developers for explaining the origins of some of the indicators and ownership for the software.

Lastly, @JonnyBoy - Thank you from the detailed analysis and breakdowns for the DTC videos. Apart for the vendor review aspect, your post's also do a great job in explaining how DOM's work, especially for noobs like me. Now, I am trying to learn more about auction market theory, volume profiling and order flow. I did start with this but fell for the indicator systems, thought there must be an easier way. Also, I was thinking a vendor will also act as a mentor and help me succeed if I buy into their system.

The responses in this thread have helped me with my decision. I hope people who are looking into the DTC program get to review this thread before making a decision.

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Part 1 @gotmetoo

“Hey Big Mike - I was trying to send this DM to JonnyBoy but I just created an account so I dont have permissions to do so. Could you forward this to him, or unlock my permissions so I can send this?”

First of all, thank you for reaching out. For your information you will need to make ten posts as a non-Elite Member to post in this section, or five posts to DM. I will answer your email in tranches to make it more concise and hopefully easy to digest. In the meantime, you could look at making 10 posts in the forum to be able to communicate back in this thread. Please try not to go through Big Mike or bobwest, for the reason of keeping their inbox’s light! You can always tag them in a post by using @ in front of their name and they will be notified. Your identity (external email address) for example is private so you do not need to worry about the integrity of your privacy on here.

“Hey JonnyBoy! I am a current DayTrading.coach member. I am trying to sort out for myself if I have been duped or not. I understand what you are saying about the indicators being, for lack of a better word, replicas of other cheaper indicators. I also watched your video of the DOM while you put in orders on the cash account vs the sim account. I am waiting on the market to open back up to test this myself with my cash account and my sim account. What you are saying certainly makes 100% sense, I just need to see it for myself. (Note: The market opened up while I was typing this and so I did test it. I do not see the increase in the number of standing orders when I placed my order with the cash account. What you are saying makes 100% logical sense as I said earlier, so it may be a setting, the instrument, or some other explanation.)”

Let’s address this cash account issue first. I had a bit of soak time on this trying to come with with some reasoning but it doesn’t make any sense at all. That is not how the order book at the CME exchange works.

It is possible to hide a stop market or stop limit order from the market upon using Simulated Stop orders in NinjaTrader. However, this feature can only be used with stop market and stop limit orders. You can't use it with limit orders.

This is explained well via the link below:

https://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/?simulated_stop_orders.htm

On the counter, not all active orders reside at the exchange as resting orders. Again, this is explained well via the link below:

https://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/?where_do_your_orders_reside_.htm

However, the CME exchange supports limit orders so the market depth would be reflected with any LMT order position, whether showing the intent to buy or sell.

I briefly spoke with a very respected trader on this forum via DM about what you are seeing and his response was “maybe his broker holds orders? He should probably ask his broker what is going on. He may be getting duped by his broker, for example. Why a broker would hold limit orders, I do not know.

I had not thought of this phenomenon because although I have read about this kind of shady broker activity happening on CFD for example (a Contract For Difference is an arrangement made in financial derivatives trading where the differences in the settlement between the open and closing trade prices are cash-settled) I have never seen this before on the CME and it is doubtful you are with a dodgy broker.

A limit order is visible to the market and instructs your broker to fill your buy or sell order at a specific price. Now, it is possible for a broker to refuse/reject your limit order placement and this will typically flash up within NinjaTrader as a warning that your position was rejected. It will tell you why it was rejected and then you can simply try again.

This can be from something as simple as not having enough margin to cover the number of contracts you want to place, or as serious as some market manipulation has been detected and all orders are cancelled until a compliance review is completed.

However, the latter won’t be the case (unless you are trying to rig the RTY, which I don’t think you are!) so I flat out do not understand.

Below are some links to the CME that tells you what happens when you submit an order, noting the flow from broker to the exchange is verified at every stage. “The exchange will verify the order to make sure it meets their requirements. If it does, the order is accepted and becomes a working order at the exchange.” That working order will be represented in the Order Tab within NinjaTrader, just like what you see below. This was a REAL working order on a REAL dollar account, prior to me cancelling it.

Also, note the ID number. This a unique identifier and can be used to trace activity if required.



For more information you can follow the links below. The second link is very good and explains in simple terms how the order book works at the CME.

https://www.cmegroup.com/education/courses/things-to-know-before-trading-cme-futures/what-happens-when-you-submit-an-order.html

https://www.cmegroup.com/education/demos-and-tutorials/cme-globex-order-pathways.html?redirect=/education/cme-globex-order-pathways.html

The snip below is direct from the CME website.



Whatever the reason you are not seeing your LMT orders show up in the book is quite disturbing actually.

If you are Canadian or from the US, I assume you have a reputable broker?

Either way, none of this right. It is also not an excuse for the DTC crew to hang their coat tails on either because this is not how the CME order book works. And the thing is, they know it too or they would have plastered this thread with brokerage statements!

I am just being transparent and responding to your email question as it was written. That is a lot of information to go through so I'll get around to responding to the rest when I get the chance.

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