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Thank you @JonnyBoy and all who have contributed to this post. It is very important to bring out to the open these predators who lie to uninformed potential traders. I hope more can be found and that we become aware of them to avoid them.
JT
Can you help answer these questions from other members on NexusFi?
I got sent an email via @Big Mike and @bobwest. This email was from a new FIO user that just signed up. They couldn't send me a DM directly until they have made a certain number of forum posts.
This person is a current member of Day Trading Coach. It was quite a long email which I will try to parse through today and respond. In the meantime I wanted to address the LMT order question, this time for the RTY instrument itself. This is the instrument that DTC trades.
In the first video you can see my LMT order placement of 4 contracts on a LIVE feed using a REAL dollar account on the RTY instrument. You can see the RTY order book tick up by 4 contracts when my real limit order reaches the exchange, and tick down by 4 contracts when I remove them.
In the second video you can see my LMT order placement of 20 contracts on a LIVE feed using SIM dollars (I have actually seen Jovan trade up to 24 contracts on the RTY believe it or not). The order book isn't updated to reflect this LMT order position because the position only exists on my local SIM account.
In the third video you can see my LMT order placement of 20 contracts on a LIVE feed using SIM dollars, but this time I have changed the DOM colour to appear like I am trading from a REAL dollar account. Of course, same as above the order book isn't modified because the position isn't real as it only exists on my local SIM account.
If you are trading an obscure instrument sometimes the exchange does not support limit orders. In these cases the order would rest at the broker servers. However, limit orders are supported on the CME, so if trading futures on the CME (whatever the instrument happens to be including the RTY), the market depth should reflect any active LMT profit target order or any LMT order that is placed.
Pure order flow only practitioners (no chart, only a DOM) use the order book in various ways. One of these ways to keep track of LMT orders (resting orders) in the book. How many have been stacked or pulled across the 10 price levels. A limit order is a resting order meaning that it is only the intent to take or exit a position, but with the CME exchange, limit orders reside in the order book at the exchange and therefore the order book should reflect this.
One important note. If I, NinjaTrader and my broker are completely wrong about this, the simplest solution would be for DTC to create an account on FIO (they probably have a stealth account anyway) and just post a weeks worth of trading videos along with the corresponding brokerage statements to back it up. They have had plenty of time to do this.
The question is, why haven't they?
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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That would be my guess. Jovan used McLeod Law to register his business as per the post tagged below. Perhaps they already knew each other, perhaps they became friends whilst sorting out the legal paperwork, perhaps he was just another DTC punter who happened to be a lawyer or perhaps he is just a shill for Jovan and hasn't actually taken the DTC course himself. Who the hell knows.
What is still very odd is why a lawyer (a partner to boot and presumably full time at the law firm) who has the potential to pull $150k ++ CAD per year in salary, would want to become a day trader. Of course everybody has their reasons and day traders come from all walks of life but this still doesn't smell right especially because the DTC ''boot camp'' is 90 days long. A difficult thing to manage one might say whilst working a full time job.
Anyway, just speculating with the above statements, nothing more than that.
Until I post the rundown of their indicators, here is a breakdown of what I know about these guys.
They (Jovan) originally started out as ''FamilyFirstDynasty'' based out of 30, North Gould St, Ste 2164 in Wyoming. That address however …
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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This isn't for me to do. I'll leave that conversation up to the Law Society of Alberta.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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when I first ran into this program under the name Family First Dynasty, Mr Jovan would trade in lots of 30. I seen him do 60 contracts on several occasions.
This method has been used many times in the past to detect an online trader who says he is making real trades when in fact he is not. It always works, because the real trades have to be shown in the exchange's order book, as has been shown in the videos. Sim trades have to not be shown in the order book, because they never get there. They stay on the user's computer and are not entered on the exchange for others to trade against, so they can never be actually executed in the real world. Simulated orders and simulated executions are simulated only. Very simple.
These examples cover limit orders, which are entered at a specific price and which sit on the book until they can be matched to an incoming order. Market orders will show up on the book also, but small ones will disappear quickly against offsetting orders and not be as evident. However, a huge market order, such as 20 (or 60) will have to be matched in chunks against a lot of resting smaller orders, and not necessarily go in without slippage. I looked back at @JonnyBoy's early posts to see how these guys trade, and they have target orders that take them out at their target price, which are also resting limit orders that, if real, will be on the book waiting for price to get there. But a simulated target order for a simulated trade will not.
The question this pertains to whether there is anything wrong with sim trading, and of course there is not. There is nothing at all wrong with sim trading as a practice method. But it is not real trading, with actual money put at risk. It is a video game.
I am both amazingly brave when playing this kind of video game, because I literally cannot lose, and I also can select the good game-type trades out of all of those I may have recorded, and play only those recordings for someone and appear to be a much better trader than I am. Since I never had any money at risk, I can afford to make and record as many simulated trades as I like, and pick the recordings of the good ones to show. This is one way I can afford the risk of making apparent trades with, for example, 20 contracts -- it's because I have no risk at all.
If I do this to convince someone to buy a product I sell, this is both dishonest and very dangerous to the potential customer, who would naturally think he was watching the trading of someone who is worth learning from.
Since a vendor who shows trade recordings is always showing them to convince a potential customer how good the vendor is at trading, it always carries the message that these are real trades.... it certainly is never the vendor's message that "These trades are just the good simulated trades we made, and we aren't going to show you all the ones that didn't work out."
I wanted to go into this just in case anyone reading this thread did not understand quite what the issue is with whether the trades are live (genuine) or sim (not genuine.) It has to do with whether a vendor is honestly representing himself or not.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
I am familiar with that as well, although not many videos exist from his Family First Dynasty days, although I have a few
What you have to consider here is that the RTY is a very thin market. What I mean by that is this, there is not a huge amount of liquidity vs. say that of the ES. You can see this for yourself on the DOM. The number of resting limit orders on the RTY sitting at any price level within 10 levels deep of the current traded price (on both the buy and sell side) rarely get above 30. The ''average'' appears to be in the teens, sometimes lower.
Remember, resting limit orders are sitting in the book as an intent to buy or sell only. They can be pulled at any time provided they were not filled. A market order (which Jovan typically uses to get an entry) will be filled instantly at the best available price.
Now here is the rub. If a trader hits the market button for a 30 contract position in the RTY using a real dollar account, the exchange will try and match those 30 orders against opposing orders to fill them at the best available price. With that many contracts in a thin (low liquidity) instrument you in all likely hood will get slippage. Meaning that the exchange couldn't match your order at a single price level and had to fill from the next best available price - which might be a tick or 2 or 3 in either direction. For better or worse I guess you could say.
Now, when I see Jovan (and other Coaches) entering a market position with a large disproportionate number of contracts vs. the quantity of real resting orders at that price level he is going market on, he is not getting any slippage. You can be lucky on occasion yes, but in reality sweeping the entire book on a single price level every time and not spilling over to another price level to soak up your remaining contracts as additional fills is highly unlikely in a thinly traded market.
In addition, it is also unlikely to get a limit order filled (his supposed profit targets for example) without price penetrating that price level and sweeping the book clean. It does happen occasionally when I trade the ES, but that is more about queue position luck than intent. And as the ES is a 'thicker' market (more liquidity) I can go market and get my contracts filled at a single price level but only because the liquidity is present and the exchange doesn't have any issue matching my order at a single price level.
For traders faking it on the ES, the above is incredibly difficult to spot. The RTY however is much easier as I have laid out.
I am a little fuzzy on this (so somebody please correct me if I am wrong) - but if Jovan was really trading the RTY live with that number of contracts and all of his students were too (when they are out of their SIM phase...lol) he could quite easily go to the exchange/broker and request he is a market maker and will provide additional liquidity (via his and his students trades) and hence receive the benefits of that. Again - I am not 100% clear on this so somebody with much more knowledge can weigh in.
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Brilliant Bob. I was replying to another post in this thread and we addressed the same things. You just have an excellent and concise way to portray all the information that needs to be said in all of your posts.
Now, I have to address that email that was received...
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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I am really impressed by the responses and support from the FIO team and community. Thanks a lot, everyone!
Appreciate the responses from developers for explaining the origins of some of the indicators and ownership for the software.
Lastly, @JonnyBoy - Thank you from the detailed analysis and breakdowns for the DTC videos. Apart for the vendor review aspect, your post's also do a great job in explaining how DOM's work, especially for noobs like me. Now, I am trying to learn more about auction market theory, volume profiling and order flow. I did start with this but fell for the indicator systems, thought there must be an easier way. Also, I was thinking a vendor will also act as a mentor and help me succeed if I buy into their system.
The responses in this thread have helped me with my decision. I hope people who are looking into the DTC program get to review this thread before making a decision.
“Hey Big Mike - I was trying to send this DM to JonnyBoy but I just created an account so I dont have permissions to do so. Could you forward this to him, or unlock my permissions so I can send this?”
First of all, thank you for reaching out. For your information you will need to make ten posts as a non-Elite Member to post in this section, or five posts to DM. I will answer your email in tranches to make it more concise and hopefully easy to digest. In the meantime, you could look at making 10 posts in the forum to be able to communicate back in this thread. Please try not to go through Big Mike or bobwest, for the reason of keeping their inbox’s light! You can always tag them in a post by using @ in front of their name and they will be notified. Your identity (external email address) for example is private so you do not need to worry about the integrity of your privacy on here.
“Hey JonnyBoy! I am a current DayTrading.coach member. I am trying to sort out for myself if I have been duped or not. I understand what you are saying about the indicators being, for lack of a better word, replicas of other cheaper indicators. I also watched your video of the DOM while you put in orders on the cash account vs the sim account. I am waiting on the market to open back up to test this myself with my cash account and my sim account. What you are saying certainly makes 100% sense, I just need to see it for myself. (Note: The market opened up while I was typing this and so I did test it. I do not see the increase in the number of standing orders when I placed my order with the cash account. What you are saying makes 100% logical sense as I said earlier, so it may be a setting, the instrument, or some other explanation.)”
Let’s address this cash account issue first. I had a bit of soak time on this trying to come with with some reasoning but it doesn’t make any sense at all. That is not how the order book at the CME exchange works.
It is possible to hide a stop market or stop limit order from the market upon using Simulated Stop orders in NinjaTrader. However, this feature can only be used with stop market and stop limit orders. You can't use it with limit orders.
However, the CME exchange supports limit orders so the market depth would be reflected with any LMT order position, whether showing the intent to buy or sell.
I briefly spoke with a very respected trader on this forum via DM about what you are seeing and his response was “maybe his broker holds orders? He should probably ask his broker what is going on. He may be getting duped by his broker, for example. Why a broker would hold limit orders, I do not know.”
I had not thought of this phenomenon because although I have read about this kind of shady broker activity happening on CFD for example (a Contract For Difference is an arrangement made in financial derivatives trading where the differences in the settlement between the open and closing trade prices are cash-settled) I have never seen this before on the CME and it is doubtful you are with a dodgy broker.
A limit order is visible to the market and instructs your broker to fill your buy or sell order at a specific price. Now, it is possible for a broker to refuse/reject your limit order placement and this will typically flash up within NinjaTrader as a warning that your position was rejected. It will tell you why it was rejected and then you can simply try again.
This can be from something as simple as not having enough margin to cover the number of contracts you want to place, or as serious as some market manipulation has been detected and all orders are cancelled until a compliance review is completed.
However, the latter won’t be the case (unless you are trying to rig the RTY, which I don’t think you are!) so I flat out do not understand.
Below are some links to the CME that tells you what happens when you submit an order, noting the flow from broker to the exchange is verified at every stage. “The exchange will verify the order to make sure it meets their requirements. If it does, the order is accepted and becomes a working order at the exchange.” That working order will be represented in the Order Tab within NinjaTrader, just like what you see below. This was a REAL working order on a REAL dollar account, prior to me cancelling it.
Also, note the ID number. This a unique identifier and can be used to trace activity if required.
For more information you can follow the links below. The second link is very good and explains in simple terms how the order book works at the CME.
Whatever the reason you are not seeing your LMT orders show up in the book is quite disturbing actually.
If you are Canadian or from the US, I assume you have a reputable broker?
Either way, none of this right. It is also not an excuse for the DTC crew to hang their coat tails on either because this is not how the CME order book works. And the thing is, they know it too or they would have plastered this thread with brokerage statements!
I am just being transparent and responding to your email question as it was written. That is a lot of information to go through so I'll get around to responding to the rest when I get the chance.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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