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Kim Mangalindan, Facebook Freedom Challenge Group (legal question - need help)


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Kim Mangalindan, Facebook Freedom Challenge Group (legal question - need help)

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  #1 (permalink)
San Francisco CA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader
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I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...

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  #2 (permalink)
Chicago IL
 
 
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Kasitlyo View Post
I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not giving you advice. But I do have some questions:

Have you told the mentor that you believe his conduct amounts to violations of SEC and other laws and regulations? (I'm assuming this is a U.S. situation.). And if you did, has he dropped the issue like a hot potato?

Have you considered the possibility that a criminal would not really want to go to court and expose their criminal activities?

Have you considered these sites for legal advice:

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/
https://www.avvo.com/free-legal-advice
https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-advice.rl

Have you considered consulting with an SEC/securities lawyer?

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  #3 (permalink)
Fletcher NC
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: nijia trader
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Kasitlyo View Post
I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...

tell him to get on with it , ask him for his address so you know where to send the bankruptcy notice. .

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  #4 (permalink)
Albuquerque, NM, USA
 
 
Posts: 78 since Jul 2012
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This is not legal advice, but from my personal experience, if you agree to recurring CC charges with any business entity, closing your CC account will not stop those recurring charges because they will automatically roll over to your new CC. The only way to stop recurring CC charges is if the business entity agrees to stop them. The recurring charges *may* stop if you close you CC account and don't get a new CC from the same financial institution, but not sure about that.

Never... ever... allow a business entity to make recurring charges to your CC unless they are well respected and highly trusted.

As for them initiating a lawsuit against you, scammers don't go to those extremes because the last thing they want is to end up in a court of law!

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  #5 (permalink)
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Can you name this vendor?

Have you searched, do they have an existing review thread here on the site?

The more you can share, the more likely members can help you.

Did you pay via PayPal?

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  #6 (permalink)
San Francisco CA
 
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userque View Post
I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not giving you advice. But I do have some questions:

Have you told the mentor that you believe his conduct amounts to violations of SEC and other laws and regulations? (I'm assuming this is a U.S. situation.). And if you did, has he dropped the issue like a hot potato?

Have you considered the possibility that a criminal would not really want to go to court and expose their criminal activities?

Have you considered these sites for legal advice:

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/
https://www.avvo.com/free-legal-advice
https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-advice.rl

Have you considered consulting with an SEC/securities lawyer?

Thanks for all the advised, I told him initially that I will file a complaint to SEC (cause I don't think, what his doing is right) if he make a collection out of me and ask him to leave me alone in peace and I will not do anything unless he did something, but he threatened me that he got high class lawyers on his payrolls. Anyways we will see what will happen. Thanks...

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People threaten me and the site all the time. The more of a scam they are, the louder their threats.

It would be helpful to know their name, and if you paid by PayPal or not.
Kasitlyo View Post
Thanks for all the advised, I told him initially that I will file a complaint to SEC (cause I don't think, what his doing is right) if he make a collection out of me and ask him to leave me alone in peace and I will not do anything unless he did something, but he threatened me that he got high class lawyers on his payrolls. Anyways we will see what will happen. Thanks...

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  #8 (permalink)
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1. Did you sign any contract regarding your membership?

2. If he's so high up, why does he need your membership fee so desperately that he would sue you and make your life miserable?

3. Lawyers are expensive. Good, reputable lawyers are upwards of $500 hourly or more in SF. His legal fees would likely cost more than your membership fees. He's bluffing.

4. I signed up for a course with SMB Capital. It was not the right course for me. I told them so. They refunded me. Because of their highly ethical behavior, I would not hesitate to take the right course with them in the future and would definitely recommend them to others.

5. A good businessperson works things out when there is troubleshooting. This person sounds like a con. I don't know any successful businessperson who would lose their cool like that.

6. If he continues to unreasonably threaten you, call the cops, SEC, write online reviews, etc.

7. Anyone who brags about their so-called connections is a childish social climber IMO.

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  #9 (permalink)
San Francisco CA
 
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Nolaughingmatter View Post
1. Did you sign any contract regarding your membership?

2. If he's so high up, why does he need your membership fee so desperately that he would sue you and make your life miserable?

3. Lawyers are expensive. Good, reputable lawyers are upwards of $500 hourly or more in SF. His legal fees would likely cost more than your membership fees. He's bluffing.

4. I signed up for a course with SMB Capital. It was not the right course for me. I told them so. They refunded me. Because of their highly ethical behavior, I would not hesitate to take the right course with them in the future and would definitely recommend them to others.

5. A good businessperson works things out when there is troubleshooting. This person sounds like a con. I don't know any successful businessperson who would lose their cool like that.

6. If he continues to unreasonably threaten you, call the cops, SEC, write online reviews, etc.

7. Anyone who brags about their so-called connections is a childish social climber IMO.

Its just on the internet sign-in, I don't know if that is legal, I started to smell fishy when one of his old student is not learning and ask for a help to me, wherein he is year ahead and almost completed on his mentoring... it sad that their is lot lots of people trying to screw people even in times like this... I start thinking to learn how to trade when this Virus arrived knowing that job will be scares and pretty soon and we all need a back-up of income. I don't want to mention names, unless he did something ugly... I will keep everybody posted, cause I don't want him victims more innocent people.

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Kasitlyo View Post
Its just on the internet sign-in, I don't know if that is legal, I started to smell fishy when one of his old student is not learning and ask for a help to me, wherein he is year ahead and almost completed on his mentoring... it sad that their is lot lots of people trying to screw people even in times like this... I start thinking to learn how to trade when this Virus arrived knowing that job will be scares and pretty soon and we all need a back-up of income. I don't want to mention names, unless he did something ugly... I will keep everybody posted, cause I don't want him victims more innocent people.

Threatening legal action isn't "ugly" enough?

This is why these vendors get away with this crap! You should post a review about him, publicly, so at least it will help someone else know what they are getting into prior to making any purchase.

Mike

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Legendary Bought TSLA at 880
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First off, sorry to hear that you're in this situation.

Next, I want to second @userque's suggestion that you go to a source of more qualified advice.

Finally, here's my own opinion - but keep in mind that I'm not a lawyer and this doesn't constitute legal advice.

First, would you consider your income level at a level where you qualify for free legal aid? If you do, you should get qualified assistance.

If you don't, my next best advice is that I would suggest you take just a fraction of the money you would have spent on this "coach" in a month to get 1 hour of consultation with a commercial lawyer, who could also help point you to his colleagues in collections and securities. I've always found for all lawyers I've worked with - from those who charge $150 per hour to those who charge $1,300 per hour - that they have a network of friends who can give you the right class of advice in multiple domains. They can probably better assess the situational context whether it's sensible to report this "coach" to the FBI for fraud or any other things you need to do. (Unlike other posters on this thread, I'm not sure if this is a clear cut case of securities fraud. Did he induce you to make any investments? Were there any promises of turning a small, actual investment in the market into larger gains without any risk disclosure?)

It sounds to me that your problem is one at a level of complexity where a non-name brand lawyer can get all your loose ends tied up for 1 hour of work at $150-250. This is also very important because it immediately sets you up for 1 level of protection: there are fair debt collection laws at both a federal and state level that will likely require the "coach" to forward any collection claims to your lawyer, failing which it's deemed harassment. My experience is that at this point the "coach" will give up.

If it makes you feel better, here's what I think:

1. Said "coach" does not appear to be aware what he is talking about. It seems at best he can assert a claim for debt collection. And it seems that you have a much stronger claim for nonperformance of duty and breach of contract, regardless of the language on the paperwork that you've executed with him.

2. No one with the ability to move the E-mini S&P 500 that I know is silly enough to bring a civil case for a couple grand all the way to court. You know it takes like $80-250k to litigate these types of things at a minimum for both parties? Not that it is a sound approach but you could literally self-represent and said "coach" will probably run out of cash before it sees the light of day. In fact I don't know what's this $-- amount but some courts don't even have jurisdiction to take on cases for too small of an amount.

3. Moreover, abovementioned fair debt collections laws generally prohibit one from making threats and harassment which seems like said person is bordering on.

4. Furthermore, him litigating a debt claim now will just open himself up to discovery and a countersuit which, based on what you've said, seems highly disadvantageous to his "business": now others in the group may find out of his deceptive practices publicly through court filings or - depending on how exactly his "business" is conducted - he may be legally obligated to disclose the existence of an ongoing lawsuit or investigation against him to his customers.

You have multiple layers of protection here. I know what it's like the first few times to be served a (bad faith) legal threat and I know it's a sh*tty feeling that keeps you awake at every corner. But go about your day, get legal assistance, and then walk your dog, do your dishes, stay healthy, and keep your mind distracted from this matter.

Lastly, please stop hiring trading coaches. I can guarantee you that I've traded orders of magnitude more than said "coach". And I actually have both licenses and exchange memberships if it gives me some form of authority. And I've actually coached employees and friends, among whom many now work for the largest trading firms in the world (Citadel, IMC, Jump, HRT, XTX, Virtu and so on). And despite all this, I'm certain I don't know what I'm talking about 95% of the time and doubt I can coach someone. But there's one thing I know: A legitimate trading mentor will pay you to train under them because they're investing in your potential to help their business, and because they recognize that it takes at least a year of hard work and full-time employment for someone to become useful at trading. Never the other way around.

Good luck.

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  #12 (permalink)
New York City + NY/United States
 
 
Posts: 240 since Sep 2018
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Can't you just charge it back and tell the scammer to f off?

It's like everyone here was born yesterday.
Kasitlyo View Post
I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...


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  #13 (permalink)
San Francisco
 
Experience: Beginner
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artemiso View Post
If you don't, my next best advice is that I would suggest you take just a fraction of the money you would have spent on this "coach" in a month to get 1 hour of consultation with a commercial lawyer, who could also help point you to his colleagues in collections and securities. I've always found for all lawyers I've worked with - from those who charge $150 per hour to those who charge $1,300 per hour - that they have a network of friends who can give you the right class of advice in multiple domains. They can probably better assess the situational context whether it's sensible to report this "coach" to the FBI for fraud or any other things you need to do. (Unlike other posters on this thread, I'm not sure if this is a clear cut case of securities fraud. Did he induce you to make any investments? Were there any promises of turning a small, actual investment in the market into larger gains without any risk disclosure?)

It sounds to me that your problem is one at a level of complexity where a non-name brand lawyer can get all your loose ends tied up for 1 hour of work at $150-250. This is also very important because it immediately sets you up for 1 level of protection: there are fair debt collection laws at both a federal and state level that will likely require the "coach" to forward any collection claims to your lawyer, failing which it's deemed harassment. My experience is that at this point the "coach" will give up.

While you have raised excellent points, lawyers aren't magicians. There are some bad lawyers out there who over-promise and may be just as shady as the "coach." A lawyer who charges $150 in San Francisco is probably not very established. Specialist lawyers are usually more expensive.

FBI does investigate Internet and business fraud. It sounds like the "coach" is bluffing and doing many questionable things on the Internet. The public can report this on the FBI website. A lawyer is not needed.

The "coach" may back off after hearing the words "FBI." A lawyer may not even be necessary.

In the meanwhile:

https://attorneys.superlawyers.com/securities-litigation/california-northern/san-francisco/

https://www.fbi.gov/scams-and-safety

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  #14 (permalink)
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Sarasota FL
 
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Posts: 6,350 since Jan 2013
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I'm sorry to read about your problems. As a non-lawyer, I have only a few thoughts, which I hope will be of some help:

1. You are not really going to get a legal opinion you can count on, nor a worthwhile opinion on any legal matter, in an internet forum. If you really want to know what to do and if you want a legal opinion, you will have to talk to an actual lawyer. Lawyers are expensive, but probably just a few hundred bucks for a simple consultation, and if you're worried it may be worth it. Also, if you're trading, and if you're paying mentors, you should be able to manage it.

2. It is easy for a sleazy vendor to type the words "I will sue you." It takes nothing at all for him to do this. But to succeed, he will have to get a lawyer, and then go to court and win. It will cost him to do this, and the win is not something that is assured, and you will have to be notified and will have your say also. Without a court judgement, he can't do anything to you. Also, you didn't say what the amount at issue is (and you have every right to keep it private, of course), but most companies will not go to the trouble of suing for the relatively small amounts of a few thousand bucks -- their costs are likely to be greater. At some point, of course, they might, and there is not necessarily any way to tell whether they will or not, but just remember that their costs, time and trouble will keep a lot of people out of courtrooms.

In other words, don't assume you are in terrible danger, and do consult with a lawyer if want to be sure.

3. I hope you have learned not to believe anyone who tells you that for just x amount of money, they will make you rich. They simply will not. The better the traders that they claim to be, the more absurd the claim is that they will share their wonderful secrets with you. The fact is usually that they don't have anything to share.

You have found a scammer and you were scammed.

You may even have reason to threaten to sue him. Ask a lawyer about your options.

4. Finally, again, no one here can give you legal advice. There are lawyers who are members of the forum, but they are not going to toss off casual advice without having you as a client and knowing more about the situation, any more than a doctor is going to diagnose a medical issue without examining you. Sorry, but that's the simple reality of it.

Good luck, and definitely stay away from any more offers to become a successful trader just by paying someone to show you how. They never really do.

Bob.

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  #15 (permalink)
San Francisco CA
 
Experience: Beginner
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Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 17 since Jul 2020
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artemiso View Post
First off, sorry to hear that you're in this situation.

Next, I want to second @userque's suggestion that you go to a source of more qualified advice.

Finally, here's my own opinion - but keep in mind that I'm not a lawyer and this doesn't constitute legal advice.

First, would you consider your income level at a level where you qualify for free legal aid? If you do, you should get qualified assistance.

If you don't, my next best advice is that I would suggest you take just a fraction of the money you would have spent on this "coach" in a month to get 1 hour of consultation with a commercial lawyer, who could also help point you to his colleagues in collections and securities. I've always found for all lawyers I've worked with - from those who charge $150 per hour to those who charge $1,300 per hour - that they have a network of friends who can give you the right class of advice in multiple domains. They can probably better assess the situational context whether it's sensible to report this "coach" to the FBI for fraud or any other things you need to do. (Unlike other posters on this thread, I'm not sure if this is a clear cut case of securities fraud. Did he induce you to make any investments? Were there any promises of turning a small, actual investment in the market into larger gains without any risk disclosure?)

It sounds to me that your problem is one at a level of complexity where a non-name brand lawyer can get all your loose ends tied up for 1 hour of work at $150-250. This is also very important because it immediately sets you up for 1 level of protection: there are fair debt collection laws at both a federal and state level that will likely require the "coach" to forward any collection claims to your lawyer, failing which it's deemed harassment. My experience is that at this point the "coach" will give up.

If it makes you feel better, here's what I think:

1. Said "coach" does not appear to be aware what he is talking about. It seems at best he can assert a claim for debt collection. And it seems that you have a much stronger claim for nonperformance of duty and breach of contract, regardless of the language on the paperwork that you've executed with him.

2. No one with the ability to move the E-mini S&P 500 that I know is silly enough to bring a civil case for a couple grand all the way to court. You know it takes like $80-250k to litigate these types of things at a minimum for both parties? Not that it is a sound approach but you could literally self-represent and said "coach" will probably run out of cash before it sees the light of day. In fact I don't know what's this $-- amount but some courts don't even have jurisdiction to take on cases for too small of an amount.

3. Moreover, abovementioned fair debt collections laws generally prohibit one from making threats and harassment which seems like said person is bordering on.

4. Furthermore, him litigating a debt claim now will just open himself up to discovery and a countersuit which, based on what you've said, seems highly disadvantageous to his "business": now others in the group may find out of his deceptive practices publicly through court filings or - depending on how exactly his "business" is conducted - he may be legally obligated to disclose the existence of an ongoing lawsuit or investigation against him to his customers.

You have multiple layers of protection here. I know what it's like the first few times to be served a (bad faith) legal threat and I know it's a sh*tty feeling that keeps you awake at every corner. But go about your day, get legal assistance, and then walk your dog, do your dishes, stay healthy, and keep your mind distracted from this matter.

Lastly, please stop hiring trading coaches. I can guarantee you that I've traded orders of magnitude more than said "coach". And I actually have both licenses and exchange memberships if it gives me some form of authority. And I've actually coached employees and friends, among whom many now work for the largest trading firms in the world (Citadel, IMC, Jump, HRT, XTX, Virtu and so on). And despite all this, I'm certain I don't know what I'm talking about 95% of the time and doubt I can coach someone. But there's one thing I know: A legitimate trading mentor will pay you to train under them because they're investing in your potential to help their business, and because they recognize that it takes at least a year of hard work and full-time employment for someone to become useful at trading. Never the other way around.

Good luck.

Thank You, very much for all your advised...you are right like last night I woke up around 4 AM and start thinking the scenario, what will going to happen... I join mentoring to make a little financial supplement, now I am buried with CC charged and the worse is my wife is so pissed-off that instead of earning money, I hope she will not divorce me.

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Kasitlyo View Post
Thank You, very much for all your advised...you are right like last night I woke up around 4 AM and start thinking the scenario, what will going to happen... I join mentoring to make a little financial supplement, now I am buried with CC charged and the worse is my wife is so pissed-off that instead of earning money, I hope she will not divorce me.

You kept a lookout for evidence of the scammer's true ability, were able to change your initial assumptions after seeing the warning signs, and made an early decision to cut it off before this became a cost sink. If it's any consolation, it at least shows that you have mental equanimity and ability to evaluate evidence in a difficult situation, which already sets you apart from most people.

You don't deserve sympathy, but you deserve a chance. And I hope your wife can see that, as you're only going to emerge from this wiser and with a smaller hole in your pocket than if you had just continued paying the scammer.

Dealing with the law sounds a lot daunting than it actually is. (Of course, don't tell your wife this directly - no one wants to be told that they're blowing something out of proportion.) My SO gets serious anxiety whenever I have to deal with legal matters, too. In my experience, keeping your own composure and showing that you're able to brush it off and go about your normal routine will help your wife cope with it a little better.

In practice, if you're a trader and familiar with the concept of transaction costs, brushes with the law aren't that scary. A heuristic I like to use is that you can often view legal fees like a transaction cost of 0.5-20% on the notional value of the event at hand. Have a commercial lease that is worth $5M? Pay $25k to negotiate the termination clause and rent improvement benefits. Have a fund administration agreement that costs $100k per year? Pay $5k to review the liability and indemnification. Have a disgruntled employee that you fired threatening to claim a $100k unpaid bonus? Pay $20k to fend them off. Have someone threatening to sue you for $20k in damages? Pay $2k to keep it off your mind.

It doesn't matter if your legal opponent is a billionaire, the SEC, the US government itself, or a run-of-the-mill scammer. They claim you owe them $20k? There's going to exist a good lawyer out there who will capably resolve it for you for under $4k. (My heuristic works pretty well... I've fortunately never had to go up against the US government before, but I've had to deal with federal regulators and >100M net worth individuals.)

@Nolaughingmatter Made a good point about the quality of the lawyer. Unfortunately, I don't have a clear answer for you on how to find a good lawyer in your area.

How I've usually found lawyers is by word of mouth. I've seen others just rely on a review site for lawyers, but I find those lacking in sample size. If you plan on just using Google, in this case you may have one way to narrow your search: one way I've conducted due diligence on lawyers with litigation experience is to search up their colleagues and them on PACER. What's counterintuitive is that a good lawyer will probably not show up on court filings very much: they usually solve matters for you before it reaches the court. So in fact you probably want a lawyer who does not show up on any court filings in your current situation. However it is helpful to ensure that said lawyer has colleagues in the same firm who specialize in litigation and have won cases before, as they have someone to bounce ideas across the room.

When you're finalizing who to work with, I recommend making sure that said lawyer doesn't bill you for the initial call where you are just trying to decide who to work with. You can say that you're deciding who to work with and will be respectful of their time, but want to chat for 15-30 min on the phone to get to know them better. I don't think this is the sort of situation where you should be required to furnish a retainer either. Also, you can ask the lawyer for customer references before deciding to work with them.

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I have a feeling that this might be resolved without going to a lawyer, depending on how Kasitlyo plays it.

Bullies usually back off if you show you can fight back. Several people have suggested on how to effectively fight back, but of course this is up to you.

In any case, I would not place so much faith in lawyers. I have spent over 6 figures over the years on legal fees with a variety of different matters. Wills, contracts, estate planning, etc. those are worth the legal fees. Anything to do with litigation relies on too many unknown factors and those are the most costly and stressful. I've dealt with crappy, cheap lawyers with a rented table in a dilapidated shared office to arrogant, high-flying lawyers in crisp suits in big firms in several different countries. In general, the best offense is a good defense (i.e. don't get into trouble, be cautious). Don't make it a habit to rely on lawyers to solve problems. They might even make it worse; they make mistakes and false assumptions all the time. No matter what, they still get paid. The damages are for you to bear.

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Sorry, I am a bit late to the discussion...

DISPUTING WITH CREDIT CARD COMPANY

IF you have solid proof that the educator is doing something fraudulent or not providing agreed upon services, I would dispute it with the credit card company. The problem is you have to be able to explain your case to a non-trader who works disputes at the credit card company, AND of course you have to prove it to them. This is not always easy.

For example, you might say "he claims to trade live, but only shows sim results." That might be good proof for a trader, but not to a judge at a credit card company.

I would go through line by line everything you were promised. Look for something you did not get. Proving you did not receive something is easy for a credit card company to understand.

COMPLAIN TO CFTC


If there is evidence of fraud, go to CFTC.gov and file a complaint. You might even be a whistleblower and be eligible for compensation. Here's what happened in 2019: https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8022-19

As part of this, you might have to get a whistelblower attorney.


CALL HIS BLUFF


If the person is a scammer, and you have solid proof of this, then call his bluff. Tell him to sue you, that you will love going through discovery and having him reveal all his trading results, etc. A good lawyer will dig like like crazy, and make him prove everything the scammer said.

**********************************************

My only caution here is that you may be convinced he is not legit, but that does not prove he is. Depending how far you go, at some point an independent set of eyes will have to evaluate the evidence and agree with you. Are you sure that will happen?


************************

If I were in your shoes, I would document the evidence you have, and send it to him saying that you want to end your relationship with him. Chances are if your evidence is solid he will back off.

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Big Mike View Post
Can you name this vendor?

Have you searched, do they have an existing review thread here on the site?

The more you can share, the more likely members can help you.

Did you pay via PayPal?

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This can be very useful if OP decides to name this person / company, if permissible. Thank you.

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You need to reveal who the scammer is. That's one of the reasons that communities like Big Mike's exist - to help traders avoid scammers. You would be doing everyone a service by writing a review about the person and his business.

Also the person who said to call his bluff is right. Tell him to go ahead and sue you in small claims court. I seriously doubt that whatever contract you signed had a clause that said:
"Even if I scam you, you have to pay". It may, however, say no refunds but there may be a cancellation clause. Even if there's no cancellation clause, it should say something about your subscription.

You should post the contract and let people read it. I bet there are multiple ways to get this guy.

He may be threatening you that if you reveal his name, he'll sue you for defamation. But that's because he doesn't want his name posted on websites like this.

This guy would probably be very easy to get if we knew who he was. Don't be afraid.

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phantomtrader View Post
You need to reveal who the scammer is. That's one of the reasons that communities like Big Mike's exist - to help traders avoid scammers. You would be doing everyone a service by writing a review about the person and his business.

Also the person who said to call his bluff is right. Tell him to go ahead and sue you in small claims court. I seriously doubt that whatever contract you signed had a clause that said:
"Even if I scam you, you have to pay". It may, however, say no refunds but there may be a cancellation clause. Even if there's no cancellation clause, it should say something about your subscription.

You should post the contract and let people read it. I bet there are multiple ways to get this guy.

He may be threatening you that if you reveal his name, he'll sue you for defamation. But that's because he doesn't want his name posted on websites like this.

This guy would probably be very easy to get if we knew who he was. Don't be afraid.

A lot of people want to know who the vendor is, and I get that (i'd love to know too). But does that really help the OP with his situation? I don't see how. This vendor is threatening legal action, and if he is outed, I would guess he would be more likely to go after OP. And if OP does not have a strong case, OP might be digging a deeper hole.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rooting out unscrupulous vendors (my last trading webinar I showed some of their tricks), but in this case I see outing the vendor as helping others avoid this guy, hurting the vendor himself, but not really helping OP with his legal problem.

I think advice needs to be centered on helping OP.

Please feel free to disagree. I can't see my advice in this post would be popular (and I understand why, but I am thinking only about the OP here).

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I've seen vendors do the right thing when facing public scrutiny and pressure. Not miracles, just the right thing.
kevinkdog View Post
A lot of people want to know who the vendor is, and I get that (i'd love to know too). But does that really help the OP with his situation? I don't see how. This vendor is threatening legal action, and if he is outed, I would guess he would be more likely to go after OP. And if OP does not have a strong case, OP might be digging a deeper hole.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rooting out unscrupulous vendors (my last trading webinar I showed some of their tricks), but in this case I see outing the vendor as helping others avoid this guy, hurting the vendor himself, but not really helping OP with his legal problem.

I think advice needs to be centered on helping OP.

Please feel free to disagree. I can't see my advice in this post would be popular (and I understand why, but I am thinking only about the OP here).

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Big Mike View Post
I've seen vendors do the right thing when facing public scrutiny and pressure. Not miracles, just the right thing.

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That would be an awesome outcome for everyone.

Flipside: I heard an educator actually sued every person who left a comment to a review on a review website - even comments that did not mention the educator. Totally frivolous. The vendor knew he would lose, but just wanted to silence, scare and intimidate people. And it worked.

Many vendors now also have clauses that prohibit customers from leaving bad or disparaging remarks anywhere. How that is legal, I do not know, but OP should check for that, too.

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kevinkdog View Post
...Many vendors now also have clauses that prohibit customers from leaving bad or disparaging remarks anywhere. How that is legal, I do not know,...

I guess it's legal if you agree to the 'contract.'

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@Kasitlyo, on the question of whether or not to publicly name the mentor, I could endorse either idea. Obviously, it's up to you whether you want to add this into the public discussion. For instance, suppose you named him here, and it turns out that he's already known for bad performance as a mentor. Maybe he's been sued. Maybe nothing will come of this, but it might. Try as many things as you can think of, and see where they go.

I think @artemiso has laid out the most complete list of possible options so far in terms of seeking legal representation/help. And while I agree with the comments that not all lawyers are necessarily any good, I think this is a situation where you do need to find some competent legal advice. "Competent" is the key word, and it's not necessarily easy to find one, but if all else fails, ask somebody. Word of mouth experience may be the way to at least get started.

My own feeling is that this is not that difficult a situation. It's extremely difficult for you emotionally and every other way, obviously, but what it comes down to is that the mentor guy is claiming breach of contract because he isn't being paid, which he isn't. You are claiming that the mentor's mentoring was no good, so you don't want to pay. That's the dispute. It is complicated by the questions of whether the mentor is bluffing, and of whether he/she will sue for the amount of money that's involved, and about what is your next step.

My view is that the next step is to spend a little money to consult a lawyer to just go over the situation and see what the legal avenues are. Some have suggested something closer to telling the mentor to take a hike. (Actually, more like telling the him to "f" himself, but I'm being polite.) One version of this would be to ask your lawyer send him a letter telling him don't accept his claim and saying why. Or you could do it without the lawyer, too. This might work if he's just blowing smoke or is just a bully, and it might not.

But you need to get into action and do something. Worrying will only take you so far. and it is not helping that much. The more you worry, the worse it all seems to you, and the more all-powerful and threatening the other guy seems. He's not all-powerful. There is always something you can do, even if it isn't the absolute best possible thing, or the thing you will end up doing. Decide on something you can do now, and start it.

Good luck.

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bobwest View Post
@Kasitlyo, on the question of whether or not to publicly name the mentor, I could endorse either idea. Obviously, it's up to you whether you want to add this into the public discussion. For instance, suppose you named him here, and it turns out that he's already known for bad performance as a mentor. Maybe he's been sued. Maybe nothing will come of this, but it might. Try as many things as you can think of, and see where they go.

I think @artemiso has laid out the most complete list of possible options so far in terms of seeking legal representation/help. And while I agree with the comments that not all lawyers are necessarily any good, I think this is a situation where you do need to find some competent legal advice. "Competent" is the key word, and it's not necessarily easy to find one, but if all else fails, ask somebody. Word of mouth experience may be the way to at least get started.

My own feeling is that this is not that difficult a situation. It's extremely difficult for you emotionally and every other way, obviously, but what it comes down to is that the mentor guy is claiming breach of contract because he isn't being paid, which he isn't. You are claiming that the mentor's mentoring was no good, so you don't want to pay. That's the dispute. It is complicated by the questions of whether the mentor is bluffing, and of whether he/she will sue for the amount of money that's involved, and about what is your next step.

My view is that the next step is to spend a little money to consult a lawyer to just go over the situation and see what the legal avenues are. Some have suggested something closer to telling the mentor to take a hike. (Actually, more like telling the him to "f" himself, but I'm being polite.) One version of this would be to ask your lawyer send him a letter telling him don't accept his claim and saying why. Or you could do it without the lawyer, too. This might work if he's just blowing smoke or is just a bully, and it might not.

But you need to get into action and do something. Worrying will only take you so far. and it is not helping that much. The more you worry, the worse it all seems to you, and the more all-powerful and threatening the other guy seems. He's not all-powerful. There is always something you can do, even if it isn't the absolute best possible thing, or the thing you will end up doing. Decide on something you can do now, and start it.

Good luck.

Bob.

Okey, I decided to reveal this Guy, he called himself Master Kim Mangalindan at FB Freedom Challenge Group... I am asking everybody a review, his top student trading at Youtube channel (Westcoast Doc) and acting as his follower and advertise all the time that Master kim will give the one they call "Golden Nugget Tip" when and what time the ES min comes Up/Down etc... and if you find it a security fraud happens when a party uses fraud, misrepresentation or to give untrue statement in connection with the sale of a security, please help me make a review/comment at YT, to open the eyes of other Freedom Challenges member not to follow and save their money, that everythig is a fraud and BS to give this "Golden Nuggets GPS". Thanks for all your help.



https://www.mtradingacademy.com/start?fbclid=IwAR12phtw4d-jcjYxBShCbVeYSRQH-eTWnpKSzYSc8i3HaCA5t3NuDrCWwVA

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Kasitlyo View Post
Okey, I decided to reveal this Guy, he called himself Master Kim Mangalindan at FB Freedom Challenge Group... I am asking everybody a review, his top student trading at Youtube channel (Westcoast Doc) and acting as his follower and advertise all the time that Master kim will give the one they call "Golden Nugget Tip" when and what time the ES min comes Up/Down etc... and if you find it a security fraud happens when a party uses fraud, misrepresentation or to give untrue statement in connection with the sale of a security, please help me make a review/comment at YT, to open the eyes of other Freedom Challenges member not to follow and save their money, that everythig is a fraud and BS to give this "Golden Nuggets GPS". Thanks for all your help.



https://www.mtradingacademy.com/start?fbclid=IwAR12phtw4d-jcjYxBShCbVeYSRQH-eTWnpKSzYSc8i3HaCA5t3NuDrCWwVA

Good. Now we'll see if there is any knowledge of this guy out in the community, and if revealing him will help and give you some options.

Please be aware that "securities fraud" is a very serious felony, and it has a very specific legal definition in connection with selling securities, which this guy almost certainly did not do. He may have defrauded you with his totally ridiculous claims about Golden Nugget Tips, but that is another story. Whether you do or don't get legal help, this would be overstating your case and probably it will not help you, and may hurt you by making people dismiss it as an overstatement. If you're going to allege specific criminal actions, you will need an attorney to guide you. (At least, this is my non-attorney opinion.)

On the other hand, just from reading what you said about his sales pitch, it is pretty clear that he is making ridiculously false promises. No one can or does do what he claims, and the language of it is revealing in itself. I don't know the next steps you have available, including with YouTube, but I expect you will get some more feedback now.

Bob.

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kevinkdog View Post
A lot of people want to know who the vendor is, and I get that (i'd love to know too). But does that really help the OP with his situation? I don't see how. This vendor is threatening legal action, and if he is outed, I would guess he would be more likely to go after OP. And if OP does not have a strong case, OP might be digging a deeper hole.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rooting out unscrupulous vendors (my last trading webinar I showed some of their tricks), but in this case I see outing the vendor as helping others avoid this guy, hurting the vendor himself, but not really helping OP with his legal problem.

I think advice needs to be centered on helping OP.

Please feel free to disagree. I can't see my advice in this post would be popular (and I understand why, but I am thinking only about the OP here).

You could be right. But these scammers come and go all the time. This guy has his website up since September 2019.

Here's the cancellation language from his website:

Cancellations
Your account or service may be cancelled, subject to the terms hereof, at any time; provided that, as set forth above, no refunds will be issued if your account or other periodic fee-based service is cancelled prior to the end of the applicable period or term.
When you cancel, you are solely responsible for properly canceling your account or service. Your account or service may be cancelled at any time by requesting such cancellation in writing by email to support@mtradingacademy.com, which cancellation request must receive a confirmation of receipt from M-Trading Academy and which cancellation will be processed by M-Trading Academy in accordance with its timelines and procedures for email cancellations. Cancellation requests by telephone, facsimile or other means of communication cannot, and will not, be accepted, honored or effective. The cancellation of your account or service will immediately result in the deactivation and deletion of your account or service, the denial of access to the Site and the forfeiture and relinquishment of all content and information within or related to your account or service. No data, content or information can be recovered once your account or service is cancelled, and you assume all responsibility for preserving any data, content or information on your account or service prior to its cancellation. M-Trading Academy may retain data, content or information from your account after cancellation in backup and/or archival copies of the Site and related databases, but such copies, if any, will not be available to you.


https://www.mtradingacademy.com/start

http://ww25.6figurementoringgroup.com/home-page?subid1=20210224-1402-2317-8181-865d58464108

The OP could cancel any time so I don't know what his problem is.

The guy can't debit his credit card after a cancellation. I think the OP needs to review the terms and conditions of the contract he signed. The mentoring website says "NO CONTRACT". But there is a verbal contract if he subscribes to a service and a link to "6fm contract" at the bottom of the page. There's a cancellation policy in that one also:

EITHER PARTY MAY CANCEL UNPERFORMED SERVICES UPON WRITTEN NOTICE (WHICH NOTICE MAY BE MADE VIA E-MAIL TO THE OTHER PARTY).


Also, that name is Indonesian or Filipino. The guy is probably operating from a different country even though the website is registered in the United States. Another good reason to publish everything the OP knows about the guy.

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phantomtrader View Post
You could be right. But these scammers come and go all the time. This guy has his website up since September 2019.

Here's the cancellation language from his website:

Cancellations
Your account or service may be cancelled, subject to the terms hereof, at any time; provided that, as set forth above, no refunds will be issued if your account or other periodic fee-based service is cancelled prior to the end of the applicable period or term.
When you cancel, you are solely responsible for properly canceling your account or service. Your account or service may be cancelled at any time by requesting such cancellation in writing by email to support@mtradingacademy.com, which cancellation request must receive a confirmation of receipt from M-Trading Academy and which cancellation will be processed by M-Trading Academy in accordance with its timelines and procedures for email cancellations. Cancellation requests by telephone, facsimile or other means of communication cannot, and will not, be accepted, honored or effective. The cancellation of your account or service will immediately result in the deactivation and deletion of your account or service, the denial of access to the Site and the forfeiture and relinquishment of all content and information within or related to your account or service. No data, content or information can be recovered once your account or service is cancelled, and you assume all responsibility for preserving any data, content or information on your account or service prior to its cancellation. M-Trading Academy may retain data, content or information from your account after cancellation in backup and/or archival copies of the Site and related databases, but such copies, if any, will not be available to you.


https://www.mtradingacademy.com/start

The OP could cancel any time so I don't know what his problem is.

The guy can't debit his credit card after a cancellation. I think the OP needs to review the terms and conditions of the contract he signed. He probably shouldn't be trading either.

Also, that name is Indonesian. The guy is probably operating from a different country even though the website is registered in the United States. Another good reason to publish everything the OP knows about the guy.


Since the OP "outed" the guru, and asked everyone to go to the vendor YouTube channel and leave comments, and OP includes a tracking id in the link to the Vendor site, I'm thinking this whole thing is an attempt to get eyeballs on the vendor.

What good would leaving YouTube comments do, relative to the OP's legal problem? (Short answer, us leaving YouTube comments will not help).

BUT, leaving YouTube comments and watching videos makes YouTube more likely to recommend the video to other viewers. How does that help OP's legal problem again?


I call BS on this whole story. The fact that @phantomtrader uncovered "easy canel" terms on the website just confirms my suspicions.

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kevinkdog View Post
Since the OP "outed" the guru, and asked everyone to go to the vendor YouTube channel and leave comments, and OP includes a tracking id in the link to the Vendor site, I'm thinking this whole thing is an attempt to get eyeballs on the vendor.

What good would leaving YouTube comments do, relative to the OP's legal problem? (Short answer, us leaving YouTube comments will not help).

BUT, leaving YouTube comments and watching videos makes YouTube more likely to recommend the video to other viewers. How does that help OP's legal problem again?


I call BS on this whole story. The fact that @phantomtrader uncovered "easy canel" terms on the website just confirms my suspicions.

Good point. The OP just joined in July:


Join Date
July 28th, 2020
Total Posts
7
Chats
0
Wiki Contributions
0

Sounds like a vendor setup. Good call, Kevin.

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phantomtrader View Post
Good point. The OP just joined in July:


Join Date
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Total Posts
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Sounds like a vendor setup. Good call, Kevin.


I could be wrong on this, I have been before. But if you read the OP's writings, website testimonials and YouTube comments by the master, you'll notice a high degree of similarity - "not quite right" English. It could be all different non-English speaking people writing that way, or one person generating all the content.

Also, I'd suggest people reverse image search the master's photo on his website...

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kevinkdog View Post
I could be wrong on this, I have been before. But if you read the OP's writings, website testimonials and YouTube comments by the master, you'll notice a high degree of similarity - "not quite right" English. It could be all different non-English speaking people writing that way, or one person generating all the content.

Also, I'd suggest people reverse image search the master's photo on his website...

Interesting - zero results which probably means the picture is a fake. Doesn't even connect to his website.

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phantomtrader View Post
Interesting - zero results which probably means the picture is a fake. Doesn't even connect to his website.

tineye gives zero results

google image search links to a photo in a radaris.com profile, with home address.

https://radaris.com/p/Kim/Mangalindan/

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  #34 (permalink)
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kevinkdog View Post
tineye gives zero results

google image search links to a photo in a radaris.com profile, with home address.

https://radaris.com/p/Kim/Mangalindan/

May be the same guy involved in this ponzi scheme:

https://mnmss.com/images/1NO-LETTER-SENT-01152020-00614760.pdf

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phantomtrader View Post
May be the same guy involved in this ponzi scheme:

https://mnmss.com/images/1NO-LETTER-SENT-01152020-00614760.pdf

This is big probability he mentioned on his FB group that he has a son in UTAH, the guy is from Vietnam, and most in the FB groups are Asian, trying to learn how to trade, I am Asian as you can see in my English, my kids always correct me hehehe. You guys are the best and THANK THANK YOU everyone, I can start sleeping better now.

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kevinkdog View Post

I call BS on this whole story. The fact that @phantomtrader uncovered "easy canel" terms on the website just confirms my suspicions.

I agree. We've been had. The joys of the Internet. You never know who's on the other side. The lack of detailed response and prevarication from the OP is telling. Most people, who responded, generously helped, and have been genuinely concerned, have spent more time on this thread than the OP.

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Nolaughingmatter View Post
I agree. We've been had. The joys of the Internet. You never know who's on the other side. The lack of detailed response and prevarication from the OP is telling. Most people, who responded, generously helped, and have been genuinely concerned, have spent more time on this thread than the OP.

May be the thread starter was nervous about giving more details because of the alleged legal threats by the vendor?
It is normally people signing up making glowing comments about a vendor who raise suspicions about their identity, not people who start threads requesting legal help because they are trying to get out of making further payments to somebody who they think is a scammer, and threatening to sue them.
It just seems unfair to suggest somebody is a liar on no real evidence whatsoever. Not just in reference to your post, but as a general point.

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matthew28 View Post
May be the thread starter was nervous about giving more details because of the alleged legal threats by the vendor?
It is normally people signing up making glowing comments about a vendor who raise suspicions about their identity, not people who start threads requesting legal help because they are trying to get out of making further payments to somebody who they think is a scammer, and threatening to sue them.
It just seems unfair to suggest somebody is a liar on no real evidence whatsoever. Not just in reference to your post, but as a general point.

I respected everybody opinion, but please look the YT advertisement and I am so mad with the guy...I pasted the PONZI link in the comment with his name so that its up to all the FB Freedom Challenge member to see and verify his credentials. At least people will be aware and second check his credibility and for Cancelling the subscription, I did write an email to the support email of my subscription cancellation. Thanks

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matthew28 View Post
May be the thread starter was nervous about giving more details because of the alleged legal threats by the vendor?
It is normally people signing up making glowing comments about a vendor who raise suspicions about their identity, not people who start threads requesting legal help because they are trying to get out of making further payments to somebody who they think is a scammer, and threatening to sue them.
It just seems unfair to suggest somebody is a liar on no real evidence whatsoever. Not just in reference to your post, but as a general point.

Like I said, I could be all wrong on this, but the "vendor is a scam" twist might be genius marketing in disguise.
  • Hottest thread last 14 days on this site.
  • Most Viewed thread last 14 days on this site.
  • The YT video linked has more views than any other recent video on that channel
  • Channel's YT subscribers have gone up too since the "reveal" post


Even bad publicity is good publicity these days.


So, even if OPs intentions were pure, at the end of the day, the vendor just got a bunch of traffic, and I'd bet more business.

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matthew28 View Post
May be the thread starter was nervous about giving more details because of the alleged legal threats by the vendor?
It is normally people signing up making glowing comments about a vendor who raise suspicions about their identity, not people who start threads requesting legal help because they are trying to get out of making further payments to somebody who they think is a scammer, and threatening to sue them.
It just seems unfair to suggest somebody is a liar on no real evidence whatsoever.

I have not called the OP a liar. Maybe I am unfair and I can definitely be wrong, but to me this is a case of not everything is as it seems. Not much makes sense.

Please read kevindog's and phantomtrader's posts, especially the vendor's cancellation policy. They have done the research.

The OP seems perfectly capable of explaining himself but offered vague details and did not elaborate when most people in similar situations would. He can do all those things without naming the vendor. Then he claimed there were language problems, yet no one misunderstood him when he opened the topic. As an immigrant, I know people say their English (or whatever language) isn't good to get out awkward situations. Once again, I am not saying the OP is a liar, but this doesn't look right.

Additionally, his location states he is in San Francisco. I am in San Francisco. Yet, when I offered legal suggestions in San Francisco, there didn't seem to be any interest or follow-up. Maybe he doesn't want to take the legal route. Ok, fair enough, but a distressed person would probably say that and definitely talk more. With VPNs and all that, IP addresses are not always reliable.

The posters have offered suggestions that have taken years of experience, money, and sweat to accumulate. Yet, the OP has stated very little on how he wants to move forward or what he has done since opening the thread. A new post from him mentions he emailed customer service. That's it.

You don't need to close a credit card account to dispute charges by the way. The credit card company can reverse charges until the dispute is resolved. On the other hand, the OP said it's charged. Then it's closed and the vendor can't charge. I'm confused.

When people pressed for the vendor's identity, he did it quite easily even though he was supposedly scared.

If I were in this situation and I read all the posters' advice and suggestions, I would deal with the vendor directly and tell the vendor to stop threatening me or I will take legal action as well as leave online reviews about my experience. Usually, that is more than enough for a guilty party to stop harassing me (in my experience). But the OP posted the vendor's info before resolving the situation with the vendor? This sequence of events doesn't make much sense to me.


I am aware that I can be wrong but this just doesn't seem right. Apologies if I am wrong.

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I felt it wasn't our role to judge either the vendor or the OP and hence didn't advise the namedrop. I may sound overly conservative, and I'm unfortunately too late, but for future reference: I don't recommend outing the vendor.

First, there's the moral issue that we cannot rely on either party to give an objective recollection of the facts. Alas, now we're in this useless fight of arguing over whether OP had any hidden agenda.

Secondly - and more importantly - it is entirely possible in cases like this that the matter escalates and OP thereafter needs to defend himself in a court or to seek financial restitution from the vendor through legal recourse. But by outing the vendor on social media, this could invite the view that OP waived his attorney-client privilege because of a conduct that fails to maintain the confidentiality of any communication with his lawyer.

Years of dealing with legal tail risks tells me that 90% of the time you'll get away with these tempting shortcuts, but it's the 10% that will really come to bite you in the rear end. Yes, if you out the vendor, the median event is that we'll all just raise our collective pitchforks and said vendor will be scared to double down on the action and OP will drop the laborious matter of getting a refund as well, but is it really worth it to save a few hundred dollars?

----

In any case, now that we have a name to look at, and independent of whatever history or beef OP might have had with Mr Mangalindan - who could've stolen his wife, kids and dog for all we know - there's several red flags in the M-Trading Academy site that OP posted.

1) The site writes in a tone that veils itself as an independent review of Mr Mangalindan's ability, but the risk disclosure at the bottom appears to show Mr Mangalindan himself as a party to the risk disclosure, suggesting that the organization is covertly in common control under Mr Mangalindan.

2) The site is uninformed about the purpose of the Rule 4.41 disclosure. You're only required to make that disclosure as a CTA. However M-Trading Academy does not appear to have a NFA member ID, so this organization is either unaware of its regulatory requirements, or it is willfully acting as a CTA without having registered or having filed a notice for exemption from registration with the NFA. (Has M-Trading Academy given advice to 15 or more persons for compensation or profit, directly or indirectly, as to the value of or the advisability of trading futures contracts? ) Moreover, that statement has to do with backtest results, which do not appear present in this site at all.

3) The site adopts the naive belief that a performance disclaimer immunizes you from wrongdoing entirely. NFA auditors would view statements such as:

- "Kim’s system is scalable… you can start with making just $100/day and eventually take your earnings to 6 and even 7 figures in one day! "
- "Make More money in ONE hour than in an entire day!"

as a flagrant violation of Rules 2-29 and 2-36, provided M-Trading Academy is deemed to be acting as a CTA, because the risk disclosure does not adequately balance the upside possibility. The vendor actually should've reworded its statement to something like "Kim's system has the potential for a rapid onset of profits or losses. You may start with only making or losing $100 per day and soon find yourself gaining or losing as much as 6 to 7 figures in one day!"

This seems like the sort of matter that, with some competent advice, might be brought forward as a complaint to the NFA (https://www.nfa.futures.org/complaintnet/complaint.aspx).

And for what it's worth, they say never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. It sounds to me entirely plausible, from the muddled writing, that OP is exactly type of person who will fall for the alleged type of confidence scam.

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artemiso View Post
Alas, now we're in this useless fight of arguing over whether OP had any hidden agenda.

Excellent points, as usual and expected from you @artemiso.

My only quibble is with "useless fight" comment - if Big Mike investigates and finds this thread to be a clever piece of viral marketing, then the discussion will not have been in vain...

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If he hadn't been encouraged to out the name, but still did, it would be equally as circumspect.

It's better the name is out than not out. At least there is some history now associated with this vendor, whether he himself is running an even bigger scam, or whether he simply had a customer that felt he was severely mistreated. Either way, one day it will speak for itself as more evidence comes forward.

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  #44 (permalink)
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kevinkdog View Post
I could be wrong on this, I have been before. But if you read the OP's writings, website testimonials and YouTube comments by the master, you'll notice a high degree of similarity - "not quite right" English. It could be all different non-English speaking people writing that way, or one person generating all the content.

Also, I'd suggest people reverse image search the master's photo on his website...

The testimonials are one of his tactics, since its my first month of learning to trade and understanding the charts and very happy that he can help me, he will ask you to make a testimony and from his words that he is feeding and helping lots of homeless and distress people, which I realized it was all a BS and I was wrong at the end, after a few months he will dominate you and tell you only stick of what he teach and trying to stretch the class giving the same course every time. He has a student for almost a year now approach me, asking for help, from the conversation with his old student that didn't learn anything, I decided to quit. Did he has the right to threaten a clients to cancel subscriptions and not happy anymore. He always bragging his winning of 500,000 a day is easy for him, but loosing a 2,000k to a subscriber piss-him off and telling me, I screwed him up. Excuse for my English, I try to upload a picture, but I am new on this site, and I don't know if it goes thru...

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Big Mike View Post
If he hadn't been encouraged to out the name, but still did, it would be equally as circumspect.

It's better the name is out than not out. At least there is some history now associated with this vendor, whether he himself is running an even bigger scam, or whether he simply had a customer that felt he was severely mistreated. Either way, one day it will speak for itself as more evidence comes forward.

Mike

Hi Big Mike, let end this thread, please I asked for help and I believed the group help me a lot and now its start going to different direction that I am asking for sympathy, Thanks everybody its a big help, I will just wait if its get uglier, But let talk trading from now on... I decided to buy the Manuals of Price Action trading and will read it twice or more till I understand it, hopefully can pick some info of different productive strategies. Thanks and Mike how can I change my username to KASTILYO, sorry if I type it incorrectly and I notice lately I can not sign in, Please help.

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Big Mike View Post
It's better the name is out than not out. At least there is some history now associated with this vendor,

Hi Mike,
Is the thread name going to be changed to include "Kim Mangalindan, FB Freedom Challenge Group"?
Tricky to find it in a review/vendor search otherwise.
Matthew

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I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...

Hi there,

Sorry about your troubles. I'm not providing legal advice, but you do mention ES above. This is a futures contract and so it falls squarely under CFTC jurisdiction. This seems like something they need to investigate if the public is being scammed (don't know if they are, but that is what you are alleging).

I wouldn't hire a lawyer just yet. You have public resources at your disposal and should exhaust those yet. If there is legal action from them, then I would look to attorneys.

Here's where you need to go: https://www.cftc.gov/complaint

Consumer Assistance and Complaints: Call Toll-Free 1-866-FON-CFTC (866-366-2382), or use the Tips and Complaints Form.

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  #48 (permalink)
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If all you say is true then for sure this guy will allow your credit card to get hit every month until you shut it down. so take care of that. do what you have to do to shut down your credit card as soon as possible. do not delay on this. this is your only protection. otherwise you are going to get hit with the monthly bills. that seems almost for sure. he is not stopping the billing so you must stop the billing from happening.

LET him know that you will not be using his services any more. that you will stop him charging you in the future. thus you send him notice that you are no longer using his services. and you do not expect to pay in the future. that any and all business relationship have ended.

SHUT DOWN THE CREDIT CARD. DO IT IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT DELAY. DO NOT THINK ABOUT IT. YOU MUST ACT IMMEDIATELY. SHUT DOWN THE CREDIT CARD. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR SHUTTING DOWN YOUR CREDIT CARD. NO ONE ELSE CAN DO THAT.

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I've been a member here for awhile - I have posted very little (just don't have the time). For some reason I've read most of this thread today - guess I needed something to do while drinking my coffee. I've seen quite a few posts like this over the years -- somebody falls for yet another "get rich quick" scheme, loses a lot of money (usually through trading - in addition to whatever fees were paid) and THEN asks for help. There have been a LOT of very good replies on this thread - some very wise commentary, some great suggestions.

Out of all that has been directed back to the OP, I hope you have captured a few very important points:

1) There are tons of scammers out there related to the stock market, futures, crypto, binary trading . . . every type of "instrument" has a ton of folks who will make absurd claims, be happy to take your money and you'll gain nothing. I'd venture that over 95% of the claimed gurus - could not make a living trading . . . so they need YOUR money to live. Also, if you happen to then fund an account and LISTEN to these guys - you'll vaporize your account in short order. So, you'll lose whatever you paid for their product/service and you'll lose the money you put into your account. And lastly, you'll have a miserable experience from start to finish . . . one that many folks never quite recover from. (That is a shame).

2) There is no EASY MONEY in trading - there are no viable or realistic GET RICH QUICK methods, schemes, indicators, books, videos, classes, etc. -- they don't exist. Anybody who makes the claim that all you need to do is buy their magic product, technical indicator, book, or whatever - and you'll magically be successful and rich . . . is making false claims . . . if you believe them, then you are your own problem from the get go.

3) There are great sites like this one (for futures), others for options trading, etc.. You must invest a LOT of time into first figuring out what communities to belong too and secondly, learning HOW to actually trade. I highly recommend paper trading (fake money) - long before you put any real money into trades. While it won't help you much with the emotional side of trading (what is in your head), it can help you learn the use the platforms, learn how to trade and most importantly learn that it is not an easy business to be in -- it takes a lot of time, effort and relentlessness to become good at it.

So invest in the work, spend the time, communicate with real experienced folks (many on this site), document your work, keep a trading journal --- invest in YOURSELF before you invest your money.

Good luck . . . and give yourself a pat on the back . . . that you only paid for a few months of subscription . . . before taking the exit door! Most hang around with false hope . . . for a lot longer!

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FuturesTrader71 View Post
Hi there,

Sorry about your troubles. I'm not providing legal advice, but you do mention ES above. This is a futures contract and so it falls squarely under CFTC jurisdiction. This seems like something they need to investigate if the public is being scammed (don't know if they are, but that is what you are alleging).

I wouldn't hire a lawyer just yet. You have public resources at your disposal and should exhaust those yet. If there is legal action from them, then I would look to attorneys.

Here's where you need to go: https://www.cftc.gov/complaint

Consumer Assistance and Complaints: Call Toll-Free 1-866-FON-CFTC (866-366-2382), or use the Tips and Complaints Form.

Good luck!

THANK THANK YOU, This what I am looking for the right place to complaint, the vendor site said he is in San Jose, CA, since 1991, but when the my local Police Dept (police report) just in case something happen to me, Officer said he can not a find a name register to drive in that name here in our state of Ca. Another hint to me his back up plan to escape... To all, Thank Thank You very much.

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I am going to be only slight off topic but my message is important: nobody who sells courses knows how to trade. Out of millions of videos on Youtube on the topic Trading I've only seen a couple of videos that actually told you how to profitably trade. That's maybe 3 videos out of millions. One good video was deleted after the guy who made it was hired to be a consultant so they shut him up (I contacted him and he told me he can no longer say anything), and another video had a little over a thousand views with one comment of couch expert criticizing him.

Every other guy who discusses Bollinger bands, MACD and the rest of the crap are all scammers. Eat, sleep and trade. EAT, SLEEP AND TRADE. <- Scam. Guests on tastytrade's youtube channel are all scammers.

No profitable guy in his right mind would ever share anything with you unless you offer him a whole lot of money, because if he does you will eat into his liquidity and there's only a limited number of good contracts available. The reason the markets are so efficient is because there's competition for good trades.

On the floor the best locals averaged 0.2-0.3 tick profit per trade and that's when there were brokers who could fill your orders without moving the market against you. Now it's tougher because oftentimes the only way to get your order filled is to let the market move against you and you don't want the market to move against you. It's very tough and nobody who's figured out how to trade is going to sell you anything for a few grand, it's nonsense.

It's so tough that today with your typical consumer commissions you will not beat the market, you just won't, that's how competitive it has become.

There's also another new scam in town. Pay us $200 a month and you will trade our capital!
Pay us and make us money! Wow, yeah, just let me get my wallet. Not to mention I totally want to be classified as a professional trader and pay a whole lot more for data, because paying more for the same thing is better!

Don't pay anyone to teach you how to trade unless the guy asks half a million for his knowledge.

Also, this forum has some great pages on how to actually trade, but they're hard to find and for the reasons mentioned above I can't tell you which.

As for the scammers like your guy, I would just ignore him and block payments. They're all powerless. There are so many weirdos on youtube, guys who have a "secret code" to trade crude light and clearly trade SIM in their videos, man I piss myself laughing at those.

I want to repeat: Do not buy any courses on trading, they're all a waste of money. All of them.

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Hi, I'm sorry you're having a tough time with this vendor - I've been in the same situation; to me, he sounds like a fraud, making threats to frighten you and back you off. I agree with the other members - you should name this person, it is likely he is known, then you would receive more targeted advice. Best of luck to you.

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This is big probability he mentioned on his FB group that he has a son in UTAH, the guy is from Vietnam, and most in the FB groups are Asian, trying to learn how to trade, I am Asian as you can see in my English, my kids always correct me hehehe. You guys are the best and THANK THANK YOU everyone, I can start sleeping better now.


The vendor's last name is 100% Filipino native. "MANGALINDAN". Not Vietnamese.
Vietnamese names are always pronounced as one syllable. Does it look like one syllable?

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  #54 (permalink)
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If he hadn't been encouraged to out the name, but still did, it would be equally as circumspect.

It's better the name is out than not out. At least there is some history now associated with this vendor, whether he himself is running an even bigger scam, or whether he simply had a customer that felt he was severely mistreated. Either way, one day it will speak for itself as more evidence comes forward.

Mike

Hey Mike, I messaged you about this guy. I know him, but believe a private message is more appropriate given his legal threats.

mlm

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  #55 (permalink)
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Kiks View Post
The vendor's last name is 100% Filipino native. "MANGALINDAN". Not Vietnamese.
Vietnamese names are always pronounced as one syllable. Does it look like one syllable?

Doesn't mean he can't be from Vietnam. He could be biracial or Filipino who's born and raised in Vietnam. I have seen Vietnamese people with Filipino last name, Thai Vietnamese, and a lot of Chinese Vietnamese. Also Kim is a rather common unisex name in Vietnam. I don't see how the dude's race is important in this case.

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  #56 (permalink)
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senjis11 View Post
Doesn't mean he can't be from Vietnam. He could be biracial or Filipino who's born and raised in Vietnam. I have seen Vietnamese people with Filipino last name, Thai Vietnamese, and a lot of Chinese Vietnamese. Also Kim is a rather common unisex name in Vietnam. I don't see how the dude's race is important in this case.

The OP is appropriating the last name on the wrong race.

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  #57 (permalink)
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This thread reminds me of the markets. It started out one way and then all of a sudden went the other way and now it has once again changed directions. Just like the markets do on a daily basis.

Seriously though, the best advice was from Futures Trader 71. File a complaint with the CFTC and that should about end any threats you receive from the alleged scammer. Also, please don't fall for these trading scams of pay to learn. Anybody can put up a website and claim to be a trader and sell you something. You can get the same info on YouTube for free nowadays. Also, this forum has voluminous info regarding trading, you just have to spend some time reading through all the info. Last but not least, screen time and sim account will provide you more knowledge then any so called guru. Best of luck.

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  #58 (permalink)
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Same "I'm not an attorney and cannot provide legal advice" caveat. Remember, this vendor would have to win a judgment in court to garnish your accounts. I would have an attorney look at your contract so you're clear about your legal standing. Fraud can violate a contract. Personally, I would attack by every means possible, including challenging the credit card charges because of fraud.

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The Attorneys General of each state has a site to file complaints. Send a copy of the threat and your description of what has happened to them and CC the “mentor”. It will let him/her know you will not be threatened. You likely will not hear from him/her again.

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  #60 (permalink)
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Hi,its look like so called mentors case,,,just check if he is registered as a mentor,,,or simply just register a complaint in NFA(NATIONAL FUTURE ASSOCIATION) AND GOOGLE stock complaint associations related brokers and exchanges.Email the guy u r filing a complaint against him.i m sure he is a fake guy.
good luck

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Just my fifty cents feedback on this guy after I did about 15 minutes of research:

1. I found two of his sites: https://www.mtradingacademy.com; and 6figurementoringgroup.com.
2. Both of those sites are typical "long copy marketing pieces," designed to walk you through the steps that will convince you to part with your money. Includes the required pictures of fast cars, jet planes, yachts, etc, presented as if "other gurus" try to sell you that, but NOT him.
3. Neither one of the two web sites show any history in the web.archive.org, which made me wonder how old they might be. The answer:
https://www.mtradingacademy.com/start Domain created on 2019-09-25
6figurementoringgroup.com: Domain created on 2019-10-07
Clearly this guy has not been "in business" for very long.
4. LinkedIn profile. Claims years of experience trading, but interestingly enough, not much other information provided. Education? crickets.
5. The https://www.mtradingacademy.com/start is written on the third-person. Doesn't that seem a bit strange coming from "Master Kim" himself?
6. Finally, and this is a personal opinion, I wouldn't buy anything from a guy that calls himself "Master Kim." Give me a break.

I know I'm not answering the original question that started this thread (that is a legal issue and I'm not an attorney); but I'm attempting to point out that we need to do some research before with let our hard earned money go.

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  #62 (permalink)
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I join the others in feeling bad that you are going through this BS. Like most others, I am not a lawyer. I have not had things like this happen to me, for one simple reason. If I was doing so well, I would not be telling others how to copy me. Maybe that makes me a selfish bastard, but I'd figure out how much I needed to bank in order to retire to a beach on Fiji or wherever and I'd trade with my secret system until I had that much and then adi-freaking-os. Plus, no one, and I don't care how much you pay them, can acurately predict the market. I do very well, but I do it by scalping, $50 here, $20 there, and so on. With no/low commissions, it adds up. But I could not tell you where to put your money if I had to. No one can predict the future. I don't care how much you pay them.

Now, that said, these "gurus" live and die, not from their trading, but by their merchant accounts. I have looked at the terms of some of these guru's terms and conditions. They are usually open about NO REFUNDS. But if you read further, they say that their life's blood is their merchant account. HUH? If you think about it, that makes perfect sense. Face it: the bull market we have had over the past several years has made millionaires out of many people; those people have graduated to telling us how to do what they did. As luck would have it, those things do not work any more. I do not know how you bought it, but I'd read up on it and go after their merchant account. Either through their bank, or PayPal or even the post office. Get them on mail fraud if they sent anything. There was a time when the BBB was good, but that is long gone. BUT, BUT, BUT today, there is social media. They cannot stop you from telling your story. No one can. Name names, make copies of statements and show them. You seemed afraid to name your "guru." Name him and put posts all over the internet. Scare the crap out of him. He could drag you to court. I'd welcome that. Then you could REALLY tell your story and it is public record. Someone said that he can keep charging you if you close your credit card and roll it to another account. I doubt that because I have lost credit cards and all of the auto pay things I had set up stopped working. I had WANTED those to roll over and they did not. I would go after this creep and tell everybody who it is. Then he has a choice: lose the business from one guy, or the potential business from 100 guys. Completely his choice.

Tim

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  #63 (permalink)
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michaelleemoore View Post
Hey Mike, I messaged you about this guy. I know him, but believe a private message is more appropriate given his legal threats.

mlm

Thanks, received. I am not concerned about legal threats personally. Anyone is welcome to share their experiences about a vendor so long as they follow site rules.

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  #64 (permalink)
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i have experience in the matter, i agree with everyone else scammers do not sue. relax, close the account, tell the bank or banks it is a disputed charge , sit back and relax.
the saame thing happened to me with an entity called ams, i mention it here so all beware. they used to post at top hat, not anymore thank god. but they had charts that incorporated several methods i like. after speaking to a guy in Florida who sounded honest. i paid whatever the cost was. later i found out that they weren"t selling a course , or a chatroom but the charts. which only work with ninja, i have trade station. upon requesting a return through paypal. after repeated back and forth, the main guy who is in the Netherlands. returned half the fee. mind you i never took anything from them. never downloaded the charts, in other words nothing was taken. i"m down $700 they"re up $700. total scam. and paypal does not like to give you back your money. now they have a policy that before you file a claim you have to negotiate with the scammer first. good luck with that.

in your case you never got to pay it all. consider yourself lucky and move on , the guy won"t sue you. besides there are legal tidbits, where is he going to sue? (diversity of jurisdiction).what is the amount in controversy?. jurisdictional issues, under what legal theory is he suing? you can not enforce an illegal contract, or contract to commit an illegal act. it goes on and on.
relax and follow one or several of the people on this site they come on from time to time and explain their approaches. one of them is bound to work for you. sorry it happened. live and learn. i"ve never posted before but for you i did.

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  #65 (permalink)
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Hmmm. So the vendors premium product offering cost roughly $3K / Month for 12 months (Around 36k annual earnings) BUT claims he taught his son how to make 1500 / day ( 30k monthly earnings and roughly 360K annual earnings). It doesn't make sense. Had this been a poker game I would push ALL IN with J high .

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If this isn't one big viral marketing scheme, it sure is having that effect...
  • Subscribers to vendor You Tube channel are up
  • Roughly 100% increase in daily YT views since vendor was "outed"
  • Even though vendor info given on page 3, people continue to ask "please share the name!"
  • Most popular thread at futures.io


From the Master's FB page less than 1 month ago:




Maybe it is all a coincidence...but maybe we are pawns in this viral marketing experiment...

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I started a separate thread here for the actual vendor review aspect:



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  #68 (permalink)
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Isn´t that bastard Henry Roche he used as an alias, he is a portugese guy who supossedly lived in Canada and ran a training trading online site named New Futures Trading.

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kevinkdog View Post
If this isn't one big viral marketing scheme, it sure is having that effect...
  • Subscribers to vendor You Tube channel are up
  • Roughly 100% increase in daily YT views since vendor was "outed"
  • Even though vendor info given on page 3, people continue to ask "please share the name!"
  • Most popular thread at futures.io


From the Master's FB page less than 1 month ago:




Maybe it is all a coincidence...but maybe we are pawns in this viral marketing experiment...

I am so worried and my thinking is in a limbo, I almost forget he has another group at FB please also look up Ferrari Trading Group, Kim Mangalindan was also the administrator of this group.

I initially met him at Stock Navigator (SN) on Facebook (Paid Membership $6K for the whole class, one time pay)and SN are mostly give you the fundamentals on this group, like the Elliot Wave Theory and to make Fibonacci and so forth, he start showing all his winning images and start mentioning that he gives classes to, then if you friend with him, he will invite you to Ferrari Trading Group and if you start asking questions, he will start connecting with you and link you to his website and making a personal call and telling all the good things he made, feeding the homeless, helping a girl in a saloon etc. He uses his son as bait to welcome you and talking to you, how much he made that day... that's the story, we are all humans and we have soft heart, when we hear something like that, you thought he is genuine... believe it or not the members in Freedom Challenge are still sticking with this guy, I emailed one member that I befriend with and Master Kim give them specific instruction to not talk to me or they will be kick out. Anyway I submitted a formal Complaint to CFTC and filled up Form TCR.

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kevinkdog View Post
If this isn't one big viral marketing scheme, it sure is having that effect...

I guess it's true what they say, no publicity is bad publicity.

The intrigue that is created by suggesting that this could somehow be a viral marketing scheme -- true or not -- may even be enough to add a significant amount of curiosity about (and views for) his channel.

Just wanted to add, the link tracking id -- referred to earlier as being potentially in kind with a such a scheme -- is a FB tracking id. It seems the FBCID doesn't have a use as of yet by marketers - but it does allow facebook to track unique clicks from FB logged in users if necessary, maybe as a click fraud investigation tool, or something along those lines. I'm guessing that anyone who does a "copy link" of one of these linke while using facebook would get the appended id, even though the link does not visually show it.

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  #71 (permalink)
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Kasitlyo View Post
I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...

I wouldn’t worry if I was you. He isn’t gonna do shit! He’s just trying to scare you into thinking he has all the power. Trust me, it’ll cost him a lot more than whatever money you spent to pay for a lawyer. Also, whatever contract he had you sign is definitely not enforceable. He isn’t the federal government, he cannot and will never be able to garnish your wages.

My thoughts, and what I would do... I would cease all communications with that scammer and go on living my life.

Trust me, I have been through several legal battles in my life and the cost of a lawyer + Mediation + trial is way more than he can ever hope to recover from you. Don’t sweat it. That asshole is just trying to intimidate you into paying.

Also, trade for yourself, don’t ever buy indicators or courses from anyone. They’re all scams!

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  #72 (permalink)
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Just a side, general opinion:

A few have mentioned that it would cost a scammer too much to justify suing. I don't believe this is necessarily the case.

A business person, or a scammer, (or even an individual) could easily have a firm on retainer.

It'd be no trouble to fill in the template suit draft with the latest victim's information/documents, and file it--probably via the internet--with a court.

The intent would be to get the victim to believe that the threats are real; that they'll now have to hire counsel to defend, or face default judgment (or proceed pro se); and to further nudge the victim towards a settlement favorable to the scammer.

So, it wouldn't cost much to initiate a suit, in light of the thousands at stake. BUT, I doubt the scammer would prosecute the case when faced with opposing counsel, or a capable and unafraid pro se defendant.

Again, I'm not a lawyer.

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  #73 (permalink)
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Kasitlyo View Post
I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...

***Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and this is NOT legal advice.

1) Look at his contract and TOS closely to see if he violated any of his own terms.

2) Check his web site and see if he has the proper CFTC disclaimers

3) If you have proof of actual fraud, contact your Credit Card company and submit the evidence to them. Ask them to reverse the charges
for the first 3 months.

4) Document all instances of him bullying and/or threatening you. Show that to your CC company as well.

5) Submit a complaint to the CFTC.

6) In the highly unlikely event that it does goes to court, the more evidence you have of his fraud/harassment/bullying/violations of his TOS the better it will
be for you.

7) Ask a licensed attorney for his/her professional opinion (Use free internet legal services)

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userque View Post
Just a side, general opinion:

A few have mentioned that it would cost a scammer too much to justify suing. I don't believe this is necessarily the case.

A business person, or a scammer, (or even an individual) could easily have a firm on retainer.

It'd be no trouble to fill in the template suit draft with the latest victim's information/documents, and file it--probably via the internet--with a court.

The intent would be to get the victim to believe that the threats are real; that they'll now have to hire counsel to defend, or face default judgment (or proceed pro se); and to further nudge the victim towards a settlement favorable to the scammer.

So, it wouldn't cost much to initiate a suit, in light of the thousands at stake. BUT, I doubt the scammer would prosecute the case when faced with opposing counsel, or a capable and unafraid pro se defendant.

Again, I'm not a lawyer.

I'm not sure Kim is even in the US or understands the American legal system. Cases are filed in the state of the disputed party. Kim would need to have a Californian lawyer to start legal work against OP.

All the retainers I had to pay were at least 5K in California and in other countries depending on the complexity of the case. Good Californian lawyers are expensive even by the hour. Kim could hire a cheap, lame California lawyer, and in that case he'll get what he deserves.

If Kim's business is incorporated in Utah (or whatever), he would still need to have a California lawyer to send the OP even just a letter.

I looked at some of Kim's websites which do not mention where the state of his businesses are incorporated. Probably just a bunch of fake websites. This is not a very sophisticated Ponzi scheme.

There's a lot of fake copyrighting that's made to look like official legal letters, which is a marketing tactic to scare people. Occasionally you see those in junk mail but they're not real. If you sue someone in NY and you live in CA, the lawyer you hire has to be licensed to practice in NY.

Anyway, it seems the OP has taken the advice to heart and has taken appropriate action. He has also elaborated more on the details of what happened and is looking to move on and continue to improve his trading. I'm happy to see this development in addition to all the exceptional support and advice he received.

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  #75 (permalink)
 
 
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This went from interesting to concerning to 'omg how can I get that half hour of my life back' - then onto entertaining, as I attempt to salvage something from this all.

This is next-level charlatanism going on here... and I've come across some pretty deeply deceitful charlatans in my life.

Wow.

I suggest following my own usual rules;

- always seek and check references
- always check and double check provenance; google, reverse image search (HT to Kevin on that one, it's amazing what that turns up), linkedin, etc.
- if it's too good to be true, it isn't true
- if it smells even slightly fishy, it is probably fishy
- always have an 'out' ; check the guarantee, confirm the cancellation terms, read the contract, never commit to anything that's not un-do-able.

Most developed countries have tight laws on consumer protection, so check your own country's (or state's in the US). They apply to the customer, not the vendor, everywhere I've lived, so although for example if you're in Europe and someone scams you from, say, Dubai, you won't realistically be able to go after them in their home jurisdiction, you are protected by Europe's consumer protection laws. That's generally how they work, but like I said, double check your own local consumer protection rules.

Many developed countries also have volunteer legal organisations, sometimes even at a town level too, that are great help. I've resorted to these in Britain and New Zealand before.

Have a great day/ week/ month/ year trading!

J

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  #76 (permalink)
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Kasitlyo View Post
I have a legal question and need a desperate help, I agreed to a Mentor for a year membership of $--K/month on mentoring and now I figured that he is just hustling the group of his students, so I bailed out after Three months. Now he is threatening to sue me and garnish the rest of amount on my income and property. He claimed to be really rich and his group can move the market and giving directions where the market (ES mini) will do, and I start noticing he got images/pictures trades that is fake or scripted when it is all shown as making money (so basically SIM trade and images it as his live trades). I try to follow it in SIM to copy and practice and its impossible to follow all his winning. Does any traders got this type of experience, want to know, how can I protect myself from him in the court just in case. I only agreed on his website and leave my Credit Card in the file for monthly due, CC is now closed and I am only trading since last March when Covid-19 starts. Thank you for any advice, please help me...

I suppose the answer depends on how you 'agreed' to his services, was there a formal contract? was this simply over an email? What did you sign exactly?

Were there any performance clauses on his part? Ie he had to make money or the contract was void?

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  #77 (permalink)
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I wouldn't do anything about it until you receive a letter from his counsel. I am in the construction business and people tell me all the time they are going to call their lawyer.

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  #78 (permalink)
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I'm sure only a fraction do call their lawyer. And obviously many of them are told by their own lawyer they don't have a good case, but that doesn't mean they cannot proceed... Just that it would cost xx,xxx or even six figures to do so...

And that's why it usually doesn't go anywhere.

I want to remind everyone that there is now a separate, named vendor thread, for anything specifically relating to it.

If the OP would agree to changing the title of this thread to include the vendor name, that would be even better and my extra thread could then be closed.

Edit: type-o corrected, there IS


RedDotScott View Post
I wouldn't do anything about it until you receive a letter from his counsel. I am in the construction business and people tell me all the time they are going to call their lawyer.

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  #79 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I'm sure only a fraction do call their lawyer. And obviously many of them are told by their own lawyer they don't have a good case, but that doesn't mean they cannot proceed... Just that it would cost xx,xxx or even six figures to do so...

And that's why it usually doesn't go anywhere.

I want to remind everyone that there is now a separate, named vendor thread, for anything specifically relating to it.

If the OP would agree to changing the title of this thread to include the vendor name, that would be even better and my extra thread could then be closed.

Edit: type-o corrected, there IS



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Yes, lets do it easy to identify/expose him and people don't need to read the whole story. Thanks

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  #80 (permalink)
SAN JOSE
 
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Hello all, but especially to OP...

I am a California licensed attorney. Let me give you the usual boilerplate that the following does not create an attorney client relationship and it would be advised that you seek legal counsel if you want to be helped in your particular matter.

That said, I can say this. I wouldn't worry about his coming after you. I would know a thing or two about that: after all, my work focuses on the enforcement of court judgments -- and even those can be thwarted by the bankruptcy process.

I perused the responses including by those of Big Mike and all the rest of the members. I'm a lurker on FuturesIO, and those responses were basically pretty good. The fact of the matter is that if someone wants to destroy you financially, a savvy poker player wouldn't telegraph this fact to you. Remember the Art of War: when you are strong, appear weak; and when you are weak, appear strong.

He could sue. Go ahead. He'll pay an attorney (someone like me, but NOT me) to write a threatening demand letter. When you neglect to respond, he'll be left with the option of having to pay a process server to actually legally give you notice of a suit. And I'm guessing that he'll want to do this outside of small claims or else it REALLy won't be worth his time. So, that means it'll be a standard Superior Court suit. Either way, just the filing of the complaint here in SF will set him back $435 plus another $200 or so to hire a process server.

If you respond, then he'll have to pay the lawyer for time. In my experience, no court hearing is any cheaper than at least $500--often more. By my clock, he's in for about $1,100 plus additional attorney time--with no guarantee of victory in court.

My opinion? He's a bunch of hot gas. Fee shifting statutes in this state are breathlessly difficult to argue and move the court to grant. I should know: I'm licensed in this state.

What you could do is even threaten to counter-sue. If he's conducting business here in California, it is possible that consumer protection laws may be in play -- and applicable attorneys' fees statutes to boot.

Tell you what.....drop me a line. I'd be happy to give you a free consultation.

Either way, it's not worth his time to try and sue you. If he tries to lien on your property, you counter with a slander of title action. If he tries to garnish your wages.....? With what? An imaginary court order that has the power of thumbscrew? All the injunctive relief motions I've had granted needed just that....court motions and hearings.

Kick back and relax. I can't guarantee nothing will happen, but neither can I guarantee that you won't get into an accident when you take BART. Your risk profile seems reasonably low.

Best

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  #81 (permalink)
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BlacksheepEsq View Post
Hello all, but especially to OP...

I am a California licensed attorney. Let me give you the usual boilerplate that the following does not create an attorney client relationship and it would be advised that you seek legal counsel if you want to be helped in your particular matter.

That said, I can say this. I wouldn't worry about his coming after you. I would know a thing or two about that: after all, my work focuses on the enforcement of court judgments -- and even those can be thwarted by the bankruptcy process.

I perused the responses including by those of Big Mike and all the rest of the members. I'm a lurker on FuturesIO, and those responses were basically pretty good. The fact of the matter is that if someone wants to destroy you financially, a savvy poker player wouldn't telegraph this fact to you. Remember the Art of War: when you are strong, appear weak; and when you are weak, appear strong.

He could sue. Go ahead. He'll pay an attorney (someone like me, but NOT me) to write a threatening demand letter. When you neglect to respond, he'll be left with the option of having to pay a process server to actually legally give you notice of a suit. And I'm guessing that he'll want to do this outside of small claims or else it REALLy won't be worth his time. So, that means it'll be a standard Superior Court suit. Either way, just the filing of the complaint here in SF will set him back $435 plus another $200 or so to hire a process server.

If you respond, then he'll have to pay the lawyer for time. In my experience, no court hearing is any cheaper than at least $500--often more. By my clock, he's in for about $1,100 plus additional attorney time--with no guarantee of victory in court.

My opinion? He's a bunch of hot gas. Fee shifting statutes in this state are breathlessly difficult to argue and move the court to grant. I should know: I'm licensed in this state.

What you could do is even threaten to counter-sue. If he's conducting business here in California, it is possible that consumer protection laws may be in play -- and applicable attorneys' fees statutes to boot.

Tell you what.....drop me a line. I'd be happy to give you a free consultation.

Either way, it's not worth his time to try and sue you. If he tries to lien on your property, you counter with a slander of title action. If he tries to garnish your wages.....? With what? An imaginary court order that has the power of thumbscrew? All the injunctive relief motions I've had granted needed just that....court motions and hearings.

Kick back and relax. I can't guarantee nothing will happen, but neither can I guarantee that you won't get into an accident when you take BART. Your risk profile seems reasonably low.

Best

Thank You Mr. BlacksheepESQ and I will give you a direct message if anything happen. Our last conversation, he texted me and said its cheaper for me to pay for settlement to release my contract for $2500 and I texted him back, if you want settlement give all of my money back or at least half, because I will report your illegal work to SEC and FBI. Then he said oh well, lets the attorneys handle it for now on. Then this morning, I received an e-mail, that my Account is now cancelled effective 8/1/20. This guy is trying to get a money from me until the last minute, I hope this means its over. Thanks everyone for all the advised.

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  #82 (permalink)
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BlacksheepEsq View Post

If you respond, then he'll have to pay the lawyer for time. In my experience, no court hearing is any cheaper than at least $500--often more. By my clock, he's in for about $1,100 plus additional attorney time--with no guarantee of victory in court.

People's impressions and high expectations about lawyers and legal stuff seem to be based on Hollywood TV shows like Suits and Law and Order with heroic, pro-bono lawyers - like it's pure magic. I'm glad there's a lawyer here who can finally corroborate the high costs involved and the labyrinthine process. In my perspective, dealing with the legal world sucks. If someone manages to go through life without needing to hire lawyers, that person is very lucky indeed. I've had lawyers charge me for paper! So please stay safe and careful everyone.

Kat has taken our advice and fought that con-man well. This is really gratifying to see.

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  #83 (permalink)
Chicago, IL USA
 
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I just saw this so I apologize to the group if this answer was already covered.
Call your credit card company and file a fraud complaint they will issue you a new card with a different number and freeze the one you are currently using. If you have any other auto payments linked to the card contact those companies and let them know that there was fraudulent activity on your account and provide them with the new card information. The credit card company may have protection policies in place which will reimburse you if the claim is approved. Worst case it will stop the debits to your card.

Report this "mentor" to the better business bureau they will flag the company and if there are other complaints they will take action to act on your behalf.

If you receive threatening emails or letters make hard copies and contact an attorney that handles fraud and consumer law. Alll attorneys are required to do a certain amount of pro-bono work each year so you may be able to get an answer or some assistance from them at little or no cost. At a minimum I would not speak with an attorney that did not do the initial meeting at no cost.

I hope that helps. Don't let this guy intimidate you, you are not the first person that this has happened to but hopefully you may be the last.

Best wishes, stay well

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  #84 (permalink)
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Kasitlyo View Post
Yes, lets do it easy to identify/expose him and people don't need to read the whole story. Thanks

OK, I've updated this thread title.

I've closed the other thread, and this will serve as the main review thread for this vendor.

Mike

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  #85 (permalink)
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Kasitlyo, as stated above. Contact your credit card company and ask for a chargeback on the three months you have paid for.
You may be able to get your money back. Or you may only be able to get one month's fee back due to the passage of time.
He has failed to live up to the claims he made as to the services he offered.
Or more inline with what the credit card company may need to hear, you are not satisfied with his "educational classes and materials."
You will have to document that you tried in good faith to get a refund.
Read their rules for making a chargeback claim and follow them.
If they agree they will pull the money out of his account and give it back to you.
It's a lot of money and they might not like it but if you show them your documents they may side with you.

His being able to accept money by credit cards comes with rules and as I see it he did not live up to those rules.
Also, contact BlacksheepEsq and talk to him about how to present your claim to your credit card company.
You have absolutely nothing to lose. He won't be happy so yes he may make more threats to you.
He will risk losing more students by them finding out the truth by making this dispute public.
Consider this a longshot trade and just go for it.
Also, look at it as an act of courage in standing up to a bully. Even if you don't get a refund you will build your own
self esteem and self-respect. Yes, you got fooled, but by fighting back using the credit card rules you get a small
win and maybe a big win.
Good luck.

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