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bill mcdowell

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  #1 (permalink)
 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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bill mcdowell sells a mentoring system of 3 months for 3000$

there r renowed successful students fulltime in the room. he trains basic system for tf and 6e and an advanced system trading cl for 1500.

his win rate from ninja summary each is 90%

i worked with him, but its an uphill struggle. would want to hear from ex students

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 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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bill logs each trade meeting his setup. he is a screenshot used for yesterday free 4 hour webinar.

there is a webinar each and every saturday

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 trendisyourfriend 
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I have attended a couple of his webinars as well as his saterday sessions. I like his trading philosophy, no prediction, just price dynamics, so forget Fibonacci projections, risk:reward concept which are based on prediction etc.. He is a living example we can trade from price action alone a bit a la Brooks but trying to do what he does must take quit a bit of practice and you'd need to enter into his head. He speaks too much to my taste (this is a characteristic of many vendors). But apart from that i think his basic message has some merits. You don't need to follow his training to benefit from him. A couple of sessions was enough to retrieve the quintessence of his message. After that, it's your own journey.

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 ct1942 
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This guy might be great but after listening about 15 minutes of him talking drove me crazy....It's probably just me but there is no way I'd pay anything to listen to this guy talk for 3 months

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 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
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Quick Summary View Post
Note:

Not including oil we've been profitable essentially every trading day for going on 5 years, not just the ' more easy' days.

Bill McDowell

Truly remarkable and utterly impossible to believe in the absence of a certified audit from a reputable accounting firm.

If this is true, there should be a 15 foot statue of Bill in front of the CME building. Moreover, why isn't Bill trading millions of OPM and taking a 2/20 rake instead of dealing with retail traders for a lousy $3K fee?

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Zoethecus View Post
Truly remarkable and utterly impossible to believe in the absence of a certified audit from a reputable accounting firm.

If this is true, there should be a 15 foot statue of Bill in front of the CME building. Moreover, why isn't Bill trading millions of OPM and taking a 2/20 rake instead of dealing with retail traders for a lousy $3K fee?


Marketing is marketing and it costs nothing to exagerate a little bit to gain one more pupil ;-)

P.S. Sceptics too doubt that Noah could have caught all the animals and got them into the ark.

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 Zoethecus 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Marketing is marketing and it costs nothing to exagerate a little bit to gain one more pupil ;-)

P.S. Sceptics too doubt that Noah could have caught all the animals and got them into the ark.

What you call exaggerating, I call lying. Guess I'm just old fashioned.

Given the choice between these two, I'd go with Noah. He was interested in saving the sheep; McDowell wants to fleece them.

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 nqcruiser 
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instead of building a statue, i think it would be correct if retail traders vote with their subscriptions, and that bill has a long followong in his room. of course, there r few successfull traders with a huge gap between teacher and pupil. on days when bill takes 60 trades on cl with 90% win rate, his best pupil puts in 10 % of that.

of course he talks too much. when i started with peter bain, i was told to repeat the dvd sessions and to repeat over and over until i understand certain concepts. bill saturday webinars r four hours long. try to repeat that. his mentoring sessions are hours. how long would u repeat if u r dump to get a point

yes definitely the issue of why somebody this successful has to do any mentoring possible has philantropic underpinnings. cer4tainly i wont sit the whole day with a bunch of students for five hundred if thats what i make in two or three trades. of course individuals want to have some proof of helping and doing community work. this man trradess 16 contracts on cl and dont really need sudents, left alone saturday informercials

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 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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this is the tradelog for 20 sep. the idea is for students to capture 80% of the trades that are logged

one of my friends reported doing 94 tics on tf on this day

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 markw 
California
 
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During the time I was in the room I never saw Bills live dome nor his account balance. I dont know if Bill is profitable or not.(trading live)Because the method takes a small profit on first target with the following targets farther out and keeping your stop tight the win rate needs to be high. Most of the members I talked to were not profitable and the one that was had been trading several years.The one thing I got out of the room was(Bill said learn price action and it will take thousands of screen hours)I was unable to make consistent profits with his method.I had a few monster days but the method gives you alot of setups both good and bad imo.


Mark

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 tickvix 
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markw View Post
During the time I was in the room I never saw Bills live dome nor his account balance. I dont know if Bill is profitable or not.(trading live)Because the method takes a small profit on first target with the following targets farther out and keeping your stop tight the win rate needs to be high. Most of the members I talked to were not profitable and the one that was had been trading several years.The one thing I got out of the room was(Bill said learn price action and it will take thousands of screen hours)I was unable to make consistent profits with his method.I had a few monster days but the method gives you alot of setups both good and bad imo.


Mark

I keep reading about all the rooms on the web where people charge a lot of money. I have been in many rooms in the past but could not find any room that would help me to arrive to the point where I would stop loosing.
Now several months ago I read a post on this forum about HelpersTradeDesk. I decided to try. Room is free. Today in fact she said she would bever charge for the room.
Gail is the name of moderator. She is trading currency futures. She has her DOM up all the time. In the room she is trading on SIM.
She is making money most of the days. Today she lost big!!! But this is OK since we all human and we make mistakes.
Trades are real time, SIM P&L real time. If any of you trading TF, or any of the currency futures I think she is worth to look at.
Also she has a lot of educational stuff on her website. It is not 100% but trading never 100%

TickVix/Gregory

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 Zoethecus 
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HelpersTradeDesk?

Link please.

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 tickvix 
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TradersHelpDesk - Trading Price with Low Risk

Link to the website


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Marqui
San Diego
 
 
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markw View Post
During the time I was in the room I never saw Bills live dome nor his account balance. I dont know if Bill is profitable or not.(trading live)Because the method takes a small profit on first target with the following targets farther out and keeping your stop tight the win rate needs to be high. Most of the members I talked to were not profitable and the one that was had been trading several years.The one thing I got out of the room was(Bill said learn price action and it will take thousands of screen hours)I was unable to make consistent profits with his method.I had a few monster days but the method gives you alot of setups both good and bad imo.


Mark

During a recent discussion with Bill, he admitted that very few of his students are successful (4 days out of 5) on either the simulator or in live trading. Based on my review, the ideas behind his scalping method have merit but I also observed several indications that he would not be a good mentor. As a result, I cannot tell whether his method is flawed or merely his mentoring program.

In any case, Bill McDowell's hypertrading style does not interest me. The one thing that does is his indicator that draws support/resistance lines on swings and extends these lines out until they are broken. I've looked in the download section here and on NinjaTrader but have not seen this. It is similar to the default Swing indicator in NT but those lines stop when the swing level changes instead of continuing to extend to the right until the line is broken by price. It seems that such an indicator would be extremely convenient for general trading. Has anyone seen one?

Marqui

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 max-td 
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hi Marqui,

have a look at thisone : swingmodified2

it has an option to choose how many swing-lines you let run further
maybe its in the direction you need it.



-

max-td
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 mavinwiz 
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markw View Post
During the time I was in the room I never saw Bills live dome nor his account balance. I dont know if Bill is profitable or not.(trading live)Because the method takes a small profit on first target with the following targets farther out and keeping your stop tight the win rate needs to be high. Most of the members I talked to were not profitable and the one that was had been trading several years.The one thing I got out of the room was(Bill said learn price action and it will take thousands of screen hours)I was unable to make consistent profits with his method.I had a few monster days but the method gives you alot of setups both good and bad imo.


Mark

Hi Mark


Thanks for the honest post about the room. So did you end up subscribing or did you just do a trial to the room?

How many members were in the room when you checked it out?

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 markw 
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I was in the room back in late 2008 and was a member. At that time the room had 10 to 15 active members. Not sure how much the room has changed or not since but I did see Bill's recent charts and they look similar.


Mark

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 mavinwiz 
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markw View Post
I was in the room back in late 2008 and was a member. At that time the room had 10 to 15 active members. Not sure how much the room has changed or not since but I did see Bill's recent charts and they look similar.


Mark

Wait so does that mean you paid for the course? Are you still using his methodologies? Was it worth it? I guess I am asking is would you recommend it?

Thanks for the quick response!

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 markw 
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Yes I paid for the course and was in the Hotcomm room for 4 months. No I am not using the method. Is it worth it? Bill's method was teaching how to trade price action. I wanted a more in depth teaching of reading price bars then Bill taught..My job situation had changed and that also was the reason for me not signing on for more room time.


Mark

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 ddnut 
San Marcos, CA
 
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mavinwiz View Post
Wait so does that mean you paid for the course? Are you still using his methodologies? Was it worth it? I guess I am asking is would you recommend it?

Thanks for the quick response!

I also took this course in 2007/2008 when I was just starting out. I did not have any success learning this method, mainly due to the absurd complexity. The basics of the post-entry trade management can be picked up by doing tick replay in NT but the system is "all or nothing" so you have to learn the other components. The most difficult part is trying to identify which of the 10 or so different setups are "low risk" and which ones should be avoided and make that decision in seconds. Since this is a scalping methodology, you need a rather high win rate to overcome losses and commissions (4 contracts yield $150 per winning trade on average).

Bill McDowell states that the trader must develop the skill to "read the bars" but he is rather vague about what that actually means. Unfortunately, he does not discuss potential trades in a live market so you are left to guess when he is considering a trade, whether he actually took a given trade or he was already in a trade in one of his other 3 markets, etc. He enters each potential trade into his trade 'log' whether taken or not, occasionally even in hindsight.

IMHO, his method of teaching leaves much to be desired and this is the weakest point in his mentoring. While he seems sincere in his intent to help, he tends to ramble and go off on minor tangents not directly related to the question at hand. Overall, I found his mentoring to be a rather frustrating experience. After talking with several other students last year, the general consensus was that the system showed promise but no one was actually following it. If anyone has had some success, I would be interested in getting a simplified explanation of what Bill is trying to teach here. A great deal gets lost in translation. The same for Al Brooks - why do these guys have such a hard time explaining what they do?

To answer your last question, I would not recommend this course for anyone just starting in trading. Stick with the simple concepts and develop your own methodology, and then test it and modify it as you progress. If you get down to it, Bill McDowell just developed a unique method that fits him and his beliefs. If you really want to follow in his footsteps, then that is the actual path you should take.

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 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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i am the sponsor of this thread. i should say that, with all due respects to my fellow billsroom students, disagree with the negative sentiments expressed here. Yes Bill makes a lot of noise about making 2000 trades, as he think that would arm the trader enough thru repeated exposure. I have never heard about 11 trade setups. I have been in billsroom in december 2010 and i am now outside as I want to pick up in February with oil mentoring. Bill could doctor his screenshots from nt7, but his winrate is 90%. As the thread starter, I have personally not come across anyone with a better winrate

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 trendisyourfriend 
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nqcruiser View Post
...but his winrate is 90%. As the thread starter, I have personally not come across anyone with a better winrate

I think mopere has a 95% win rate

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 mavinwiz 
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That was a very comprehensive post. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I've talked to a couple other former students now and they all seem to agree that though Bill maybe successful at this..his teaching of the methodology leaves a lot to be desired.

Even based on his seminars and free videos, I did get an inkling that it would be difficult to replicate these results. Even when he was doing a market replay on Sim it was difficult to comprehend what exactly he was looking for. I was under the impression that in live trading it would be easier but based on what you are saying it would be very similar.

His stop management was very active and aggressive and seemed a bit arbitrary at times. I know it is a skill he honed over many years, however without clear explanation of how and why, it would be difficult to learn.

Your input was very much appreciated!

How has your trading journey progressed? What methods have you continued to research and study? It is a difficult one indeed..

Best of luck!

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 mavinwiz 
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Ahh Nqcruiser - so you are a current student? So you are on the 2nd month of the four month course? Do you feel his results are repeatable?

I don't understand what you mean you are outside but picking up Feb with Oil Mentoring? I do know he has a further $1500 course for Oil and Gold mentoring but that's after the initial 4 month course is that correct?

I'd like to hear the other side with a new student. Can you please elaborate on your experiences so far? He seems like a nice man, and I don't doubt he is successful. I guess I fear that I won't be able to pick it up if others have not as well. Though he has been doing this since 2006 so I imagine he must be doing something right!!

Many thanks!



nqcruiser View Post
i am the sponsor of this thread. i should say that, with all due respects to my fellow billsroom students, disagree with the negative sentiments expressed here. Yes Bill makes a lot of noise about making 2000 trades, as he think that would arm the trader enough thru repeated exposure. I have never heard about 11 trade setups. I have been in billsroom in december 2010 and i am now outside as I want to pick up in February with oil mentoring. Bill could doctor his screenshots from nt7, but his winrate is 90%. As the thread starter, I have personally not come across anyone with a better winrate


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 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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i have been with bill since december 2009 and yes,i did the 4 month course. in my case, i have moved on to cl course without proving success with tf anf 6e. bill did allow me to subscribe to this even tough he had misgivings. i am happy for this as i am really successful with cl trading on my own. I am scheduled to start the cl mentoring in february, having had almost a solid january with simtrading cl.

there seem to be a perception that bill's method in real trading is difficult and that few students have made it to be successful. the last i heard he had around 37 successful students. i have yet to meet a negatory naysayers in the room. those unsucessful once may be here on this thread but i dont know of any1 who has failed at his method.

once u do cl course, u can clearly see that bill's method is all about reading momemtum and watching price action to be able to jump onboard a move that is unfolding

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 trendisyourfriend 
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nqcruiser View Post
i have been with bill since december 2009 and yes,i did the 4 month course. in my case, i have moved on to cl course without proving success with tf anf 6e. bill did allow me to subscribe to this even tough he had misgivings.


nqcruiser, why did you not succeed with TF or 6E ? What is so different with CL ?

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Martin Dunne
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nqcruiser View Post
As the thread starter, I have personally not come across anyone with a better winrate

Well, I have, so I can believe people like that do exist. It's kinda funny though that everyone is so quick to denigrate them without actually doing proper DD first.

Yes, good reliable trading methods can be complex. The same can be said about what I am using and I got it from another trading wizz with remarkable results that were hard to believe. No, I am not doing as well as he is, but I believe I can do much better and I am already very good.

I am not trying to endorse Mr. McDowell, as I know nothing about him. That's just a general comment about related matters.

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steve5
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Martin Dunne View Post
Well, I have, so I can believe people like that do exist. It's kinda funny though that everyone is so quick to denigrate them without actually doing proper DD first.

Yes, good reliable trading methods can be complex. The same can be said about what I am using and I got it from another trading wizz with remarkable results that were hard to believe. No, I am not doing as well as he is, but I believe I can do much better and I am already very good.

I am not trying to endorse Mr. McDowell, as I know nothing about him. That's just a general comment about related matters.


Can you please share what trading coach you are using

Steve

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  #30 (permalink)
 TheSeeker 
Germany
 
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Does this Bill McDowell have a website ? Never heard of him before.

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 mavinwiz 
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Ahh wait so you started over a year ago not in 2010? Thanks again for your sharing your exp. Glad to see the light of the tunnel for you with the CL. I imagine it's been a tough journey. The key for me I suppose is how many students total has he had and of 37 students what % do they comprise.

I have no doubt his method works as he's been in this game awhile. However being able to extract that knowledge may prove to be difficult for some and I fear that spending $3k to find out I'm one of the ones that would not benefit is a bit harsh. I've spent many hours overlooking his free videos and versions of his Saturday seminars and though I can see some merit in his methodology I am a bit frustrated with his speaking style. However that is on me. It's like a professor in college. Sometimes you just don't sync well, and can't absorb the material and that may very well be the case here.

Again thanks for sharing your insight, its good to hear from the other side and I wish you well on the CL.


nqcruiser View Post
i have been with bill since december 2009 and yes,i did the 4 month course. in my case, i have moved on to cl course without proving success with tf anf 6e. bill did allow me to subscribe to this even tough he had misgivings. i am happy for this as i am really successful with cl trading on my own. I am scheduled to start the cl mentoring in february, having had almost a solid january with simtrading cl.

there seem to be a perception that bill's method in real trading is difficult and that few students have made it to be successful. the last i heard he had around 37 successful students. i have yet to meet a negatory naysayers in the room. those unsucessful once may be here on this thread but i dont know of any1 who has failed at his method.

once u do cl course, u can clearly see that bill's method is all about reading momemtum and watching price action to be able to jump onboard a move that is unfolding


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 trendisyourfriend 
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Although i never followed his method or bought his course there is one thing i like about the guy, Bill's approach is based on a bottom up approach as opposed to a top down approach. If you think you need to predict future price locations to trade profitably then this guy might help you to look at the markets or 'price action' differently. Everything that he professes is at the polar opposite of predicting the future.

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 ddnut 
San Marcos, CA
 
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nqcruiser View Post
i have been with bill since december 2009 and yes,i did the 4 month course. in my case, i have moved on to cl course without proving success with tf anf 6e. bill did allow me to subscribe to this even tough he had misgivings. i am happy for this as i am really successful with cl trading on my own. I am scheduled to start the cl mentoring in february, having had almost a solid january with simtrading cl.

there seem to be a perception that bill's method in real trading is difficult and that few students have made it to be successful. the last i heard he had around 37 successful students. i have yet to meet a negatory naysayers in the room. those unsucessful once may be here on this thread but i dont know of any1 who has failed at his method.

once u do cl course, u can clearly see that bill's method is all about reading momemtum and watching price action to be able to jump onboard a move that is unfolding

Thanks for the clarification. Your original post implied that you had recently taken the course in 2010 and had found it to be an 'uphill struggle.' Others here weighed in with similar comments and I provided my own experience along with other students I knew around that time. This is the first time hearing that people other than Bill have been successfully implemented this particular methodolgy. When I spoke to Bill in 2009 and 2010 he was unsure how well his students were doing, which seemed odd for someone running a mentoring program.

I do agree that the basic methodlogy and his overall approach has a number of merits, but I maintain that Bill's method of teaching and the complexity of his system gets in the way. While trading may be complicated, it does not have to come anywhere near the level that Bill has laid out. For example, he categorizes all the potential trades into c3/C3, C3/c1, etc. but I don't know if that is really important for his trading decisions, his statistical records, or he notes this information just for the heck of it. Is this level of detail necessary or is it just clutter?

Good luck with the CL. Reading between the lines, the majority of the success is coming from the revised methodology developed for the CL. Let us know how this works out.

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 Java 
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He offers or used to offer half the course for half the cost which I did. He kept pushing me to sign up for the balance, but I never did. Seemed like a lot of his material was dated in the sense that he no longer taught it. The end result was reviewing a lot of stuff that no longer applied. He really needs to go through all the videos and distill everything down to his current methodology.

Glad I didn't go the full route. I came away with my own simplified approach.

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 Linds 
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I’m in my 6th year of teaching the SCIENCE & ART of consistently profitable trading in ALL market conditions. I freely disclose my methodology especially in my free Saturday sessions. But the core of my course is providing the personal guidance traders need to master the INTUITIVE skills required for RTB trading, which in turn leads to near 100% daily profitability. The SECRET is numerous hours of highly focused RTB screen time—much using Market Replay anytime 24/7. You don’t learn to play the piano by just learning the ‘music rules’; you learn to play ONLY through disciplined practice. So it is with trading—and you need a competent teacher to guide your practice. Please join me as I share my student’s consistent >95% real money trading results and how they do it.



from an advertisement from an upcoming webinar by Bill McDowell


95% of his student are profitable? Vendors talking about percentages in the 90% worries me. Pretty sure the content of this thread would not support this claim.

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 markw 
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markw View Post
During the time I was in the room I never saw Bills live dome nor his account balance. I dont know if Bill is profitable or not.(trading live)Because the method takes a small profit on first target with the following targets farther out and keeping your stop tight the win rate needs to be high. Most of the members I talked to were not profitable and the one that was had been trading several years.The one thing I got out of the room was(Bill said learn price action and it will take thousands of screen hours)I was unable to make consistent profits with his method.I had a few monster days but the method gives you alot of setups both good and bad imo.


Mark

After attending this weeks Trader Central webinar and Saturdays session in Bill's room I"ve decided to try Bill's method again. Looking back the problem was not the method but me.

Mark

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 trendisyourfriend 
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The last time i attended one of his webinar in 2009 he was using 4 contracts for each trade. I find this quite a large position for someone starting to trade. Also, i think if your method can not be profitable with one contract then it means it depends solely on money management to achieve its prowess. This might be tough for some.

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Martin Dunne
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Linds View Post
I’m in my 6th year of teaching the SCIENCE & ART of consistently profitable trading in ALL market conditions. I freely disclose my methodology especially in my free Saturday sessions. But the core of my course is providing the personal guidance traders need to master the INTUITIVE skills required for RTB trading, which in turn leads to near 100% daily profitability. The SECRET is numerous hours of highly focused RTB screen time—much using Market Replay anytime 24/7. You don’t learn to play the piano by just learning the ‘music rules’; you learn to play ONLY through disciplined practice. So it is with trading—and you need a competent teacher to guide your practice. Please join me as I share my student’s consistent >95% real money trading results and how they do it.



from an advertisement from an upcoming webinar by Bill McDowell


95% of his student are profitable? Vendors talking about percentages in the 90% worries me. Pretty sure the content of this thread would not support this claim.

I think that's totally fishy. I don't think that better than 20-40% is possible even for the best vendors/mentors. The trader is always the weakest link.

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 Tiberius 
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The way Dr. Bill tracks the trades: all trades are recorded and graded, so profitability has a different criteria. I would of enrolled in Dr. Bill's course if it wasn't for futures.io (formerly BMT). At futures.io (formerly BMT) everything I want in trading is right here. Thanks Big Mike

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 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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i am still on and off in the room. 2 students seem to average 90%.

it would be nice to hear from current paid up members how they are performing. most people seem unwilling to share experiences,especially when they have losses

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 Java 
Portland
 
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nqcruiser View Post
i am still on and off in the room. 2 students seem to average 90%.

it would be nice to hear from current paid up members how they are performing. most people seem unwilling to share experiences,especially when they have losses

Why don't you set the example? What are your results?

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  #42 (permalink)
billbdc
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Martin Dunne,

You mentioned in a prior post finding a good trading mentor. Would you be willing to share your experience and his name?

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  #43 (permalink)
 cunparis 
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I did McDowell's mentorship program a while ago (maybe 2 years ago). After a few weeks I quickly realized there was nothing there. At the time Bill did not show his DOM, ninja chart markers, trade list, or anything else that would prove he was profitable. All he showed was an excel tradelog. His method was based on buying breakouts of cup patterns, but he had a keen ability to skip the losers and only take the winners. When I asked why he'd just say "that didn't look good". When he got a winner he'd show a screenshot showing the winning trade only. One could not see the previous trades. I felt he was hiding his losers. I was willing to part with my $3k but I was not willing to waste 3-6 months on it. So I left.

My advice is this: Without seeing actual broker statements, run away from any trading room / coach. They're all scams. I did two trials last week and will be posting more about them on my blog but the fact is I have yet to see one honest. Actually Kam from L2ST did show his DOM for a few weeks and he did make a little money but it was not very impressive. It was no where near the $4k/day he claims to make.

So just run away from these and save your money. Read the Dalton books & watch his free webinars and practice. It takes a few years. There are no shortcuts you have to put in the time.

This is the first time I write about my experience in Bill's room and that's because I was ashamed of having lost my $3k on it. I felt it was my fault for falling for a scam. But now I see they're all scams so I don't feel as bad and I want to warn others.

The only proof is a brokerage list of executions. There is absolutely no reason why a real coach wouldn't show this but they will all come up with a variety of excuses. If they don't show them then just assume they're a scam and move on.

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 Trafford 
London, England
 
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Cunparis,

I know Kam and he does not strike me as a liar. If he says he makes $4k then I would tend to believe that is what he makes. He trades the DAX and so does most of his trading prior to teaching in the L2ST room.
Trading is a journey and I firmly believe if you have the desire to learn something you will. Is it likely to to be a costly affair, more than likely. Like you I have spent loads on education and wished I met someone like me when I first started but we evolve as proceed and I am still learning but I know a hell of a lot from when I first started. I have never met a successful businessman that never lost money or made mistakes and more importantly was afraid to fail in his attempt to learn. Put it all down to experience.

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 cunparis 
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Trafford View Post
Cunparis,

I know Kam and he does not strike me as a liar. If he says he makes $4k then I would tend to believe that is what he makes. He trades the DAX and so does most of his trading prior to teaching in the L2ST room.
Trading is a journey and I firmly believe if you have the desire to learn something you will. Is it likely to to be a costly affair, more than likely. Like you I have spent loads on education and wished I met someone like me when I first started but we evolve as proceed and I am still learning but I know a hell of a lot from when I first started. I have never met a successful businessman that never lost money or made mistakes and more importantly was afraid to fail in his attempt to learn. Put it all down to experience.

If Kam makes $4k/day then all he has to do is post a few brokerage reports showing his trades. Or the execution log from his X_Trader. He prefers not to do that. I'm not saying Kam is a scam, I learned a lot in his room despite the fact that his "method" didn't work for me. But I don't believe he makes $4k per day. I'm saying I do not believe ANY trader until I see proof. That keeps me out of trouble.

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billbdc
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Thank you for your replies and honesty. There are certainly a lot of empty promises out there in the trading training arena.

And, I fully agree that for the sake of honesty and transparency whoever is teaching should project their charts and their dom live.

I'd love to hear more about any trainers that are both successful traders and able to transfer that skill consistently to students.

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 Trafford 
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I think the key component is whatever it is the person is teaching you resonates with you and are you are able to apply it and make money from it over time. You hit it on the head when you said his “method” did not do it for you, which is the only thing that really matters not seeing his DOM or account, but whether you can implement it, modify it if need be and then make money from it. After all we are only ever trading our beliefs - according to Van Tharp. That is why you can give someone a system that you are making money from and when someone else trades your system they lose with it. The best way is as you said find a method and style that suits you and then that is the key to your success. Know Thy Self and Thy Plan.

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 cunparis 
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Trafford View Post
I think the key component is whatever it is the person is teaching you resonates with you and are you are able to apply it and make money from it over time. You hit it on the head when you said his “method” did not do it for you, which is the only thing that really matters not seeing his DOM or account, but whether you can implement it, modify it if need be and then make money from it. After all we are only ever trading our beliefs - according to Van Tharp. That is why you can give someone a system that you are making money from and when someone else trades your system they lose with it. The best way is as you said find a method and style that suits you and then that is the key to your success. Know Thy Self and Thy Plan.

I agree 100%. I think everyone has to learn their own method. Can be based on others' ideas but the method has to be your own. There is no right or wrong answer. I've tried trading like other people and it just never worked. But over time I have been able to come up with my own method that is unique to me.

I think the only way to learn to trade someone's method is to have private lessons or at least a very small group, see the persons DOM all the time, see all his charts all the time, ask questions, get feedback on your own trades, etc. I'd even say it should be in person. That is very time-consuming for a profitable trader to do all that and most don't because they don't need to. That leaves the scammers. They have no choice, they have to do it in order to have an income. So they hide things, get as many people in the room as possible, etc. And they can't give good answers because they really don't know how to trade themselves.

I plan to do a whole blog series on this. I've uncovered several scams lately. It's really pathetic that people stoop that low and the sad thing is no matter what, there will be lots of people ready to hand over their money and sign up. The people at futures.io (formerly BMT) should know better but all those traders just getting started don't. They get hooked by a "free webinar" and it's like signing up for the next Tony Robbins seminar. You feel great about it and do it and then when you have second thoughts you realize there is no refund and you've been had. Even sadder is some stay in these rooms for a year or more, not knowing they're being suckered.

Anyway.. can't save the world but I at least like to put the information out there so if people good it they'll find it. When I googled Bill McDowell there was nothing out there. And now there is.

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  #49 (permalink)
 TheSeeker 
Germany
 
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I have trialed the L2ST room. I like their setups.

It is true, however, most of the trades were called after the fact, i.e. " we had a lovely divergence here, there was a great entry there" etc...while Kam was chatting away during the trading session, making it hard to focus.

I have also been following FT71 and he is probably THE trader you can trust on the internet !

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 cunparis 
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TheSeeker View Post
I have trialed the L2ST room. I like their setups.

It is true, however, most of the trades were called after the fact, i.e. " we had a lovely divergence here, there was a great entry there" etc...while Kam was chatting away during the trading session, making it hard to focus.

I have also been following FT71 and he is probably THE trader you can trust on the internet !

I have found that commenting on trades & setups and actually placing trades are two completely different things. PLacing a trade you have to time entry, determine your stop, manage your trade once it's on, etc. It's easy to call them in hindsight.

For a few weeks Kam was trading showing his DOM (supposedly real money) and the results were not impressive. Just above breakeven. For some reason he stopped that, I assume because he wasn't able to trade profitably, otherwise he would have continued.

Be careful of "setups". That implies a mechanical way of looking at the market, which is dynamic. Each situation is unique.

I learn a lot from FT71, in a more conceptual nature. He often tweets things before they happen rather than commenting in hindsight. And it's free. I can't see any reason to pay someone to comment in hindsight when you can follow FT71 for free.

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 TheSeeker 
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cunparis View Post

Be careful of "setups". That implies a mechanical way of looking at the market, which is dynamic. Each situation is unique.

I learn a lot from FT71, in a more conceptual nature. He often tweets things before they happen rather than commenting in hindsight. And it's free. I can't see any reason to pay someone to comment in hindsight when you can follow FT71 for free.

You cannot apply setups/patterns mechanically but in the end, you are always looking for a reocurring pattern, theme or whatever you might call it.

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 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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Cunparis

u may want to revisit billsroom. he trades cl, gc and fdax now and on average, he takes around 50-70 trades on cl. however your expectations wont be meet even if u return to the room. he shows trades after the fact and never shows his DOM. the only real deal who shows trades in front of traders is simon from FUTURES fx and he charges much less for his system that bill.

i think part of bill's problem is that the few successful traders with his method uses other indicators and systems or widen his stoploss of 5 tics to 15 to allow trades room to develop,. Altough he sells his standard course for trading tf and 6e for 3000USD, no one has claimed consistently trading these two instruments with standard. Yet when he gives his webinars to prospective sheep willing to pay 3000, he claims my traders. Most of the those in the room are not successful. only one guy who lost his job and trades for 2 years fulltime, have claimed success. it is time sometime tells him that the majority of students are part of the 99% of failuers in the trading industry

thanx for all the inputs.

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 turbolover 
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nqcruiser View Post
(CLIPPED)
the only real deal who shows trades in front of traders is simon from FUTURES fx and he charges much less for his system that bill.
(CLIPPED)

I just REchecked both guys out the beginning of October 2011.
Simon at futuresfx dot ca is more $ up front, would be around $6600 for one year.
Dr. Bill McDowell would be around $6250 for one year, including the hotcomm license.

FWIW, if any others out there are considering taking one of these courses, I take the stance that I always perform my own due diligence, so here is a quick overview of my notes for both mentors to give you an idea of what I consider:

Bill McDowell (Bills Room)
Not a CTA, etc., but PhD in physics
Did not find a website for Bill McDowell (coincidentally named the same as another non-PhD trader).
Mentoring for more than five years.
Charges $3000US for standard mentoring on 6E and TF, $1500US for oil and gold mentoring, then $1000 per quarter thereafter if mentoring is still required, reduces to $750 per quarter if mentorship not needed.
Indicators "free"
After market close reviews (forgot to ask how many days per week), Saturday weekly review (sends out a recording if desired)
Saw his DOM when he was doing trades around 0600CST, he was doing sixteen contracts and when I asked him about it, he pointed out that it is the same
strategy he teaches, just four times the student contracts.
Looks legit, I just do not think he realizes that it is bigtime hard to do without indicators unless you are trading that way for years.
Minor criticisms: very professor-like, appears to be inconsistent on losers, but genuine interest in students

Simon www dot futuresfx dot ca
Registered CTA (four years registered)
Sloppy website and different domains raises red flags with me because it looks like it has been through various rehashing from other domain names, etc.
From their website:
The FuturesFX site that their lifetime membership is $6000US, then $49.00US thereafter
"Free copy" of their advances signal system (FuturesFx) $1,595.00 USD value
Another indicator called the G-Scalper Deluxe trader.
The G-Scalper Deluxe is available on its own for $2,995. USD
Another indicator called the A.C.E indicator

To summarize:
The baloney indicator pricing Simon Jousef shows on the futuresfx dot com site program listing turns me off bigtime.
Was able to reach Dr. Bill McDowell (billsroom) immediately by phone. Sounds very flexible and realistic about mentoring. Overall, it sounds like you will hold onto your training / mentorship $ longer with Dr. Bill McDowell, especially if you wait a month or so to do the oil and gold trading.

Considering it will take the average Joe six months of daily trading to be consistent anyway, it may be better to do the Dr. Bill McDowell course.

If others are interested, I will get more info on both and post again later, just PM me...
Big Mike rocks!
turbolover

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 cunparis 
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I would strongly recommend avoiding any trading rooms where the trader does not show their DOM or orders real time. There are simply too many fakes out there. I know because I've been taken by several of them myself! In fact I'm not aware of a single room where the trader shows his DOM real time and is profitable. There is always a trick or something else to hide the real performance.

Personally, I think following a few profitable traders on twitter and asking them questions is the best way to learn to trade and it's 100% free. I know many profitable traders now and they're always willing to help others. It's amazing just how kind & generous they are. The guys who charge money for it are mostly crooks.

If you join one of these please let us know how it goes.

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  #55 (permalink)
 cunparis 
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nqcruiser View Post
he shows trades after the fact and never shows his DOM

This is how it was when I was in the room. The problem is you don't know about all the losers. You only find out about the winners. Bill would get real quiet and then either say "I decided not to take that one" or he'd say "here's what I got on that one". This wasn't helpful for me at all and I left.

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 nqcruiser 
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Be careful of Simon too. He trades outside the room during euro session but hardly shares his trades. I am banned by him.

Bill win rate og 90 percent is suspect. Y can't he trades and make a living from his skills. He charges for his room unlike others like tgtradergirl. Ft71 and many others

Also don't trust students in bills room. They r part of the scam and never show real results

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  #57 (permalink)
 longboat 
Philadelphia, Pa
 
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I would be careful too. It is a lot of money to spend. Both mentors trade multiple contracts and you can easily blow up an account quick that way. I bought Simon's course and I can say he is a great trader. He does show his dome. Does it mean you will make money? Doubtful. I didn't. Just because a mentor is a great trader doesn't mean he is a great teacher. All great players are not great coaches. I don't know if he is not clear or I can't understand his English, or the videos are not how he uses his method ,but I never felt comfortable enough using his method to even take a live trade! He has 6-7 charts open and Gomi ladders for each instrument. He hardly ever takes a trade off his indicators. Many times in the room he would take trades and I had no idea why he did. No reason according to his method. My advice save your money and pick a method here on futures.io (formerly BMT). There are many great ones offered through the kindness of the traders. Take the money you would have used for the course and make it your seed money for potential losses.

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  #58 (permalink)
 researcher247 
Chicago, IL
 
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Great advice below from the last poster!! Kudos, longboat!

"My advice save your money and pick a method here on futures.io (formerly BMT). There are many great ones offered through the kindness of the traders. Take the money you would have used for the course and make it your seed money for potential losses."


My gut (and alot of forum posts and internet searches) says methinks McDowell is a no go for at least 95% of short-term intraday traders. Those are slim odds on the positive side.
----------------
I usually read the last 3 pages of a great method that someone here on futures.io (formerly BMT) generously takes time to provide and give continued feedback on; then (if 'I dig the vibe' and/or the method 'speaks to me and/or my psychology/trading style') I go BACK and read from page 1.

Also, I view any archived webinar (if available); then I suggest to get involved and join the discussion guys!

We can find stuff everyone can use if we all are committed. Doesn't take a 50K account either; many 'tight' methods can be traded with ultra-low risk and great MM and trade management AFTER entry.

I would just like to write to any intermediate or beginning or near-breakeven or breakeven or slighty-profitable traders; put down the measly $50.00 USD and become an elite member.

I like futures/commodities; however, I just sent this email to my trading parnter (in response to another group of market researchers who follow forex).

My preference is hyper-short term trading (when scaling deeply liquid instruments; it is all good)--his preference is short-to mid-term swingtrading (he is not of my 'video game' generation).
--------------
--------------
"Good forex swing methods are found (as you know) in

a) forums (forex factory, other forex forums--confirmed by REAL forex traders with an OPEN dialogue); usually the method costs less than $150 USD and/or are completely free.
b) big mike (you kind of create your own stuff with good indicators--a recipe you make your own)
c) 'some' web/email sources

Good commodity/futures 'basket' sources we have (they require a much larger capital base and you have to diversify and non-correlate)."

Peace

Hedvig/researcher247@yahoo.com

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  #59 (permalink)
 turbolover 
dulles ohio
 
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I can vouch for McDowell and Roy Kelly guys because I had a trick to see any hotcomm desktop, including the area outside of the recording region (which included the DOM and their chat areas).

If the trading groups on hotcomm are representative of the overall mentoring market, then based on my own snooping around on hotcomm, I can say with certainty that nine out of ten of the mentors out there are not trading real money accounts no matter what they say, PERIOD.

Dr. William McDowell and the Roy Kelly guys come to mind as a couple of the very hard to find, legit traders I saw trade live on their own DOM.
Watched McDowell net positive 200 ticks day after day after day.
Watched Roy Kelly guys do precision entries that netted forty-ticks or better over and over again. They also had accounts with big bucks, so they had interbank feeds on the YM. Shocking how many contracts we never see outside of the exchange and how many ways the big contracts are arbitraged between months.

Hope that helps,
turbolover

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  #60 (permalink)
 turbolover 
dulles ohio
 
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longboat View Post
I would be careful too. It is a lot of money to spend. Both mentors trade multiple contracts and you can easily blow up an account quick that way. I bought Simon's course and I can say he is a great trader. He does show his dome. Does it mean you will make money? Doubtful. I didn't. Just because a mentor is a great trader doesn't mean he is a great teacher. All great players are not great coaches. I don't know if he is not clear or I can't understand his English, or the videos are not how he uses his method ,but I never felt comfortable enough using his method to even take a live trade! He has 6-7 charts open and Gomi ladders for each instrument. He hardly ever takes a trade off his indicators. Many times in the room he would take trades and I had no idea why he did. No reason according to his method. My advice save your money and pick a method here on futures.io (formerly BMT). There are many great ones offered through the kindness of the traders. Take the money you would have used for the course and make it your seed money for potential losses.


What got me excited about McDowell was that I saw he traded several instruments well. Plus he did sixteen contracts at a time up until the open, after that it varied. I was initially optimistic because I knew I could do a smaller proportion of contracts with my small account. I also have to give him credit because he consistently met his targets, usually within a couple of minutes.
Where I saw him fail is when he chased trades or jumped between DOM's, so I cannot really fault his specific techniques per se really more of habits we all tend to have. Dang it is a whirlwind during regular hours and I am not anywhere close to his acuity, so I had to find something more entry-level.


Come to think of it, where both of these guys lost me was in their trading technique inconsistencies.


Yes, Bill McDowell does eighty percent or better, but remember, he is doing teeny TINY targets, versus Simon who is doing small to medium targets. The commissions McDowell pays is a MUCH higher proportion than Simon.
Simon has a more predictable system, but at the price of bigtime complexity and a massive learning curve.
Bill's system can wipe you out due to the degree of noise in the market, so they can be all or nothing type of trades.
My biggest complaint is that both Bill and Simon have vague rules.


My heart feels like it is beating out of my chest on some of the trades I take, even though I plan them out, so I need a very strict rules-based system for lack of a better word.

From a technical point of view, Simon may have the overall better system, but dang he is hard to listen to (reminds me of the nutrisystems multilevel marketing guy).

Bill is more professor-like and flexible in trading from what I can tell simply based on everything I have seen. (I have probably virtually watched over his shoulder more than fifty hours. Someone with more experience could probably find his methods easier to grasp and would not feel overwhelmed by the playbook / nuances of each market.

In the end I went with the eotprolive guys because I have a background in middleware programming, understood their trading analysis techniques almost immediately, have more control over the analysis within ninjatrader, and the trades have much more realistic timeframe to determine go / no go at my level of experience.
Yes, the analysis is more Elder-like and generic, but I have most everything automated now so I sweat a hell of a lot less. I use a mix of techniques and am reasonably confident I could do it for a living if I had more discipline...

When did you take Simon's course? Are you still subscribed? Did you purchase all of the indicators?
If you get a minute, PM me. I have been thinking of building a system that is a cross between the old-school Cisco Futures method and Simon's setup. I used the Gomi ladder under NT6.5 but ditched it when it started slowing things down.
Thanks,
turbolover

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  #61 (permalink)
 cunparis 
Paris, France
 
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turbolover View Post
What got me excited about McDowell was that I saw he traded several instruments well. Plus he did sixteen contracts at a time up until the open, after that it varied. I was initially optimistic because I knew I could do a smaller proportion of contracts with my small account. I also have to give him credit because he consistently met his targets, usually within a couple of minutes.

How do you know he traded real money and not on sim? If he is trading real money, I wonder why he would not show his DOM. That's really strange. Why hide it? Why show winners after the fact?

Bill's method seems to be based more on intuition. The way he was teaching it was not working as no one was able to do it, even the guys who were in there for a year. It's basically a question of faith - if you scalp it this way every day you'll eventually get it. or not. I wasn't prepared to spend a year finding out. He could never say why he entered or didn't enter, it was always "I didn't like the bars" or "you got to RTB" (read the bars). But this RTB can't be explained. And if it can't be explained, I don't think it can be taught.

It's funny that I spent so much time trying different methods and such and in the end what works for me, and what I believe is the only thing that works, is simple support & resistance. Buy support, sell resistance, and know quickly when you're wrong. It's really that simple. Yet all these indicators and systems make it out to be so complicated.

can someone refresh my memory on bill's targets & stops. I believe he was using 3,4,5,5 for targets and for stop I do not remember maybe 5,5,5,5.

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 steve2222 
Auckland, New Zealand
 
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turbolover View Post
I can vouch for McDowell and Roy Kelly guys because I had a trick to see any hotcomm desktop, including the area outside of the recording region (which included the DOM and their chat areas).


Hope that helps,
turbolover

@turbolover

How does this trick work?

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  #63 (permalink)
 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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bill or any other person out there charging for his/her trading service, should try to make a living from their skills in the 1st place rather than charging for rooms. whats wrong with this basic demand. he charges an astronomical fee for his room. Even former students who failed to get it, need to pay. why? i dont pay for thetradingzone or tgtradergirl. i can get in there anytime i want. its just nonsense to try and make money from other who r suffering to get up to speed with trading skills. whats wrong with that?

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  #64 (permalink)
 Eric j 
NY
 
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nqcruiser View Post
bill or any other person out there charging for his/her trading service, should try to make a living from their skills in the 1st place rather than charging for rooms. whats wrong with this basic demand. he charges an astronomical fee for his room. Even former students who failed to get it, need to pay. why? i dont pay for thetradingzone or tgtradergirl. i can get in there anytime i want. its just nonsense to try and make money from other who r suffering to get up to speed with trading skills. whats wrong with that?

Unfortunately these vendors supply a knowledge product that certain people demand . Even though the demand is for knowledge that cant be taught in a classical classroom setting , if it can be taught at all , the vendors still provide knowledge , for a fee . The question you ask here is as old as the hills and will be asked for eternity .

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 turbolover 
dulles ohio
 
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hey guys I do not want to sound negative in any way about these two guys, I was just chiming in on the thread based on my experience.

my personal reality is that I had been trading baskets of currencies via StateStreet since early 2000 and was looking to get away from them when Citigroup took over. Citi f'ed with a solid working platform and turned it into a horrible jumble of programs that were buggy and unreliable. I got burned badly due to connection failures, etc.

futures had always been appealing to me and I heard about Roy Kelly first, found Roy Kelly on hotcomm.
the hotcomm software had a similar bug to the cisco software out there, so I could lurk anywhere I wanted on hotcomm without being detected for a long time. I watched dozens of different traders over the next few months, found Dr. Bill McDowell.

basically if you are new, neither guy would be bad, especially compared to what is out there.
that being said, futures.io (formerly BMT) is excellent and you can go far with the resources here.

glad to have found futures.io (formerly BMT)
hope that helps,
turbolover

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 turbolover 
dulles ohio
 
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cunparis View Post
(snipped)
can someone refresh my memory on bill's targets & stops. I believe he was using 3,4,5,5 for targets and for stop I do not remember maybe 5,5,5,5.
(snipped)

Yes, 3,4,5 for targets with 4,5,5,5 for stops - - a very all-or-nothing situation, especially on the russell and the euro when it is moving (seventeen ticks upside, nineteen downside).

You mentioned support and resistance trading earlier, what resource do you recommend learning that from?
I am interested in it, but never have found anything concrete...
TIA,
turbolover

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  #67 (permalink)
 cunparis 
Paris, France
 
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turbolover View Post
Yes, 3,4,5 for targets with 4,5,5,5 for stops - - a very all-or-nothing situation, especially on the russell and the euro when it is moving (seventeen ticks upside, nineteen downside).

You mentioned support and resistance trading earlier, what resource do you recommend learning that from?
I am interested in it, but never have found anything concrete...
TIA,
turbolover

3,4,5 with 4,5,5 stop doesn't make sense to me. One needs over 58% win rate just to break even. To make money at this, one would need 75% win rate or more. My experience is that strategies which require a 75% win rate do not work well. Especially with the current volatility.

In my trading, I go for at least a 2:1 ratio on my first scale and I like my second scale to be 3:1 or better. So I can be right < 50% of the time. I take a few (0-4) trades/session. This is what works for me.

For resources in learning support & resistance: There are two methods: Price based S&R (yday's high & low for example), and volum profiling (yesterday's HVN & LVN). I wrote a blog page with links to resources which is geared towards new traders but still useful for those with experience:

My advice for someone starting out Trade With The Flow

There are many ways to trade. Sometimes I take trades opposite of some colleagues. But we all make money in the end. So everyone has to find what works for them. If scalping for 5 ticks is working for someone then that's great. If it's not then try looking at something different.

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  #68 (permalink)
 rainbowchaser 
Fort Lauderdale, Florida. USA
 
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Took Bill's program on early 2011. Did basic (6E and TF) program and CL program as well. Bill is very commited to his room and students. His methodology, although very difficult to master, is very sound and solid. he shows his trades all the time in the CL room. At that time there were a handful of students both experienced and novices, like me. All the experienced ones contacted showed his trades and his versions of the methodology. All very open to help.
The only thing I would desire is his videos to be shorter. More than a 100 of videos are available and most of them are more than 2hrs long.
His weekly class for new students attending the room is awesome. Bill is an awesome trader and he probes it everyday in the room.
Unfortunately for me I was really unexperienced at that time. Meaning too new. Of course I blew my account when I went life with the TF. My one and enterely fault.
Would wish to have taken his mentorship later with a little more reading and study, like now.
This site has been a blessing for me and as i have stated publicly to Big Mike. I have passed hundreds of quality hours on the last year enjoying the learning and the companion ship of alll here.
As per Mc Dowell I can only speak well of him. A gentleman and a terrific trader. Would have to say that he is a monster of a trader.
Maybe the notion spread by other vendors that you can make it in 60 days was the cause of my failure.
Mc Dowell, and many others, state that you need your 10K hours of study before hitting the jack pot.
Bill Mc Dowell is very sincere about that. But our wishful thinking, our superhero ego makes us believe that we can make it and kick Goldman Sacks traders in the buttocks with just 3 months of study. I have found a very few lucky ones that say, here, that they made it on a month. Good for them.
I have improved my knowledge with all the info here. have studied trading psichology as per BM insistence, I am walking up at 2am ET to attend the Euro session before going to my day job and I am opening my path.
There are very solid methodologies here. You just have to pick one and master it...over time.

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  #69 (permalink)
emini2000
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So any recent traders in Bill's room? Anybody taken his course within the last year or so? How have you done?

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