Are there any US regulations that prevent paid trading rooms from publishing actual trades in real time ?
I only mention this because the rooms that I have tried don't really show their actual trades. In other words, they don't show their position on the screen.
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Nope, nothing that would prevent showing past performance or live trades.
The only regulation would be NFA wanting you to be able to prove what you are saying, if you are a member. Then standard CFTC regulation that prohibits you from making future or unsubstantiated claims. Whether you do it in sim or cash makes no difference in the law, only in how you represent it.
This is all to the best of my knowledge. I am thinking perhaps @FuturesTrader71 knows more in this area from that side of the business.
You are spot on. There are no regulations against posting live trades or showing past performance. The requirement for NFA members (brokers, funds, clearing firms, pools, dealers) is that they cite all of the required risk disclosures including the risk of trading futures, the risk of using past performance and the risk of hypothetical results. In either case, they all have to be able to substantiate their claims on demand.
CFTC rules apply to everyone and they also don't prohibit the posting of live trades or results. Many educators and gurus have posted supposed live results that turned out to be false and had to face federal prosecutors. Everyone must simply post the truth.
This is a tricky subject in that we always have to ask ourselves "why" someone is posting live results. What is the benefit to them? Are these results complete or are they cherry-picked (only posting winners and not losers)? Are the live results posted from one account while the poster is hedging with another live account? Things like that.
TLDR: No, there are no regulations against posting live results except that they must be truthful and complete
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Frankly, I don't see value in that. I would see more value in how the followers do. I know so many guys who can make money trading but horrible at teaching. Making money is not the same as backing someone else to make money.
But I get your point. At least it provides "something" as a measuring point.
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Just retired from 30 years in the industry. I believe the only thing holding them back is bad trades. There are no "after trade" reporting restrictions or making info public. Prior to trade could be looked at as "herding" people into a trade for price manipulation but they can post any info after the trade as long as it's accurate and factual.
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You're falling for the oldest trick in the book being in a room like that, if they don't show their actual trades and show they are successful then they aren't actually trading successfully. If you think about it, if you wanted to grow a trade room business and you successfully made millions, just literally post a broker statement front and center on your website, you would skyrocket in membership. Who wouldn't do that if successful?
The room I'm in posts a statement every day, and they live stream every trade they make every day. It's a 1/1,000,000 kind of thing to find that though, as most of these hacks don't really trade and that's why they have a room
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I doubt it..
but if you did have that information, you would be able to plot their success...
like the people who are permanent bears, they know eventually they will be right and when they are they play that up... we as humans forget how many times they are wrong... so pundits of this style make a permanent living seeing nothing but doom and gloom, and their desire to earn a living and appear right (rather than be right) has no bearing on their morals of the damage they do keeping people out of the market over the past years
just think... 100$ (100 shares) of McDonalds bougnt through their DRIP funds in the 1970s would have given every person who put that money in, 20 million dollars today for retirmeent if they just left it there...
THATS how damaging the negs are
but if you actually knew the trades and you could plot their successes vs failures and knew the real numbers
what would keep you there?
There aren’t many rooms out there that do this so I’m fairly certain I know which one you’re referring to. I think it’s funny when I’ve been in “other” room’s webinars where they’re promoting how good they are at trading and how easy it is to duplicate their strategy, then when the occasional attendee says “show us your statements” the presenter gets all huffy, gives some poor excuse for not doing so, and then boot the requesting attendee(s) from the room. Standard practice for trading charlatans. We all know where they really make their money...
The oldest trick in the book is not that... its connected to the oldest profession...
on another note though... this reminds me of rainmakers
Rainmaker myths: When pressed to explain extraordinary rainmakers’ success, lawyers we interview often resort to one of three kinds of myths. First, the Hero Myth chalks up collaborative success to the rainmaker’s characteristics like inimitable charm and charisma, peerless intelligence, and superhuman stamina that attract both clients and loyal teams. Alternatively, the Midas Myth suggests that successful collaborators have been granted extraordinary gold-generating powers by the powerful gods – as in, they inherited an institutional client that produced endless riches by demanding huge teams. Third, in the Myth of Serendipity, rainmakers are like the ancient princes of Serendip who made wonderful discoveries through sheer happenstance.
Putting aside the modern meaning...
These people would make a living going from place to place claiming to be able to make rain (by whatever means)
When they arrived in a dry place, and the inevitable happened, they would garner great reward from the people
when they arrived and it stayed dry, they, like astrologers would have all kinds of reasons which would place blame on the people and garner a temporary power... they tended to leave before things got too hot for them...
these are modern versions of the old time rainmakers..
[again, putting aside the more modern colloquial use of the term in finance]
Everyone is right, there is nothing preventing anyone from doing that. I found two rooms/systems that show live trades with their account number on the DOM. Veritas Futures/Target Traders Pro calls out his trades and shows them in his live account and posts his statements. And 10-Minute Trades trades news announcements and shows his live account as he takes the trades. I've been trading with Veritas and just passed a LeeLoo evaluation in ten days and just started trading my funded account yesterday. I'm up 400 bucks so far. I know everyone is different and two days does not make someone a success but at least they both might be worth some research and due diligence.
Good luck,
Joe
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This thread is most interesting.. I have seen multiple trade rooms claim they are prohibited from trading live in their rooms because they would need to be licensed registered representatives. Being registered with the NFA would be a big hassle therefore they can only sim trade
Check out The Trading Zone. In the trade room Gritz and Gater call their trades in real time, manage the stops and targets and give the reason for taking the trade. They display real time charts so you can see what they see.
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check out tradingschools.org he gives reviews on trade rooms he goes into the rooms records them and
evaluates them anonymously so he claims I use his reviews and then look at the rooms that get better ratings
The main guy is doing like a $6k to $50k challenge right now. His statement today up like 400% in a month. They live stream every trade and every detail, it's quite nice if that's your thing.
SMB Futures, which is a division of SMB Capital has a service that trades the ES and CL. Its not a live trade room, but Merritt Black goes over his buy and sell points for the next session. He then follows up with a review, win or loss on each trade setup. I have found it to be very educational and helpful. SMB only charges 75.00 monthly for this service which I believe is very fair.
Futures.io policy does not permit promotion of any commercial venture to forum members.
Your post has accordingly been deleted. The promotional elements are those that involve possibly creating a new trade room and inviting members to join you. If you wish to repost, without the promotional aspects, that will be fine.
But if you convey any promotional message to the members, you should expect the post to be deleted and you should expect to be banned, as violating site policy.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
No offense but why are you wanting to start a trade room when you aren’t consistently profitable? That is the problem with this industry actually that so many people do that because they want a “trading business” Honorable you want to be transparent in theory, but ethically why coach people in something you yourself aren’t proven to be good at? You could be doing harm to others and their financial well being even if you mean well.
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While I understand why it might seem that I was "promoting" a trade room, that was obviously not the intention. As stated "I have been thinking for years", meaning that it is a thought I always had. I was just looking for info on what platforms to use, should I decide to do it, what is it that customers like to see in the room, bottom line, general knowledge of what an honest trading room should be and not someone that is trying to scam people.
Anyways my apologies for giving that impression, but I do have a question, since I was obviously not mentioning any room, how is the mention of other trading rooms as it has been posted in this thread, not "promoting" it?
Just curious.
richard
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I understood your disclaimer in the original comment. From our perspective, bringing up the subject that you might be thinking of starting a room, talking about how you will be helping traders, talking about your subscription policy, essentially anything at all that discusses any plans you may have or may develop in the future, is going too far. Anything that makes it sound like it might be a good idea for someone to be interested in any room you set up, is definitely too far.
The difference is that you, or anyone, can say anything you like about someone else's room or web site or whatever, good or bad, so long as it's not your room or site.
This forum is the target of nearly endless attempts by vendors to cash in on the membership.
We will not allow even potential offerings, even presently-nonexistent and hypothetical future offerings, to be put before the membership by anyone who may at some point have a stake in it.
I can understand that you may not have understood this. But I had to delete your last post as well, for just these reasons.
Any additional discussion on your part about anything relating to any possible plans that you yourself may have even in some hypothetical future in this area will simply get you permanently banned, with no further discussion.
I hope the policy is now clear to you.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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I answered your question Menaace, but the post was deleted. So for peace sake, I'll leave it as it is. Anyways it is just an idea, that was all.
But your points were valid and there are answers for it.
Take care and good trading
Richard
Wow.....this thread was just decimated by over-moderation IMHO. I was just hoping to get a few references to some decent trading rooms where real trades are shown. Instead, I got one reference. Pathetic.
I think I need to re-post my original post on https://www.elitetrader.com/. Information flow is really crimped on this site.
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Good luck distinguishing between all the stealth vendors over there, if you can stand the trolls.
I'm sorry you consider it "over" moderation, but in fact if you poll our members what you'll find is moderation is what sets us apart from other communities like ET -- specifically with regards to vendors, because we stand up and say no, call bs, ban and etc when it comes to fake stealth accounts.
WRT this specific deletion, we have a lot of experience in this area that gives us clear data. With all the best intentions, members offer something initially that later morphs into a commercial business. This causes endless headaches, so after dealing with this countless times we decided long ago to just put a stop to it upfront. Period, the end.
We also don't delete posts where vendors are called out for their bad reputation, even under threat or actual lawsuit (see Amp lawsuit thread, we won 25k later). Other sites delete away because they cave under pressure.
Thank you to @bobwest for taking time to moderate and provide explanation.
Mike: Moderation has got it's "price" i.e free information flow. That was so obvious in this thread. I received zero value from it. The intention of the thread was honorable......and there were no obvious trading room vendors posting here either. Your moderators need more rules and less discretion IMHO.
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I'm not sure if you meant less rules more discretion, or vice versa...? But just to let everyone know, we discuss most issues like this as a team on Slack prior to taking action, to get multiple perspectives covered.
Anyway, I learned years ago it's impossible to make everyone happy. Instead, we do what we think is best for the community as a whole.
There is a lot of value in the thread. The take away could be summarized in my opinion: no regulation prevents live cash trades, most rooms are a complete joke and take advantage of rookie traders, most traders still fall for concepts like "if we don't make xyz(cost of room) then you don't pay", which is complete BS in real world and falls into post-analysis hindsight 20/20 category. A real brokerage statement is more valuable but even then not a perfect picture by any means.
Let's do this: if you or anyone else wants to continue the conversation on moderation, please create a new thread so we stop deviating off-topic here.
trade room...if any of my fellow traders were struggling with there trading and went into some trade room and came out a world class trader that is green every day and now live in Saints Kits , please share with us all the blessed thrill ride.
AH...FINALLY !!.... a "wise guy" post. I just knew it was coming sooner or later. First of all I corrected your spelling mistakes in your post. Second of all, the original post was looking for information on whether trading rooms were held accountable to any standards or rules. I was specifically looking for rooms that post live results and daily PnL's, that's all. It had nothing to do with whether a room is "green" or not. That wasn't the point.
Interesting thread...and yes there is a LOT of crap out there and I've been suckered into some myself in the past (and unfortunately wasted valuable time and money). For the past few weeks, I've been checking out something I found recently and just this week am getting set up with the indicators formally...I do believe it's good, genuine, and trades are shown on screen in real time and also posted in the chat. What is this gem, you ask? PTG, Polaris Trading Group. Still new to me, but so far, I'm quite impressed.
Thanks Jill.....finally some valuable feedback ! It's been weeks now since getting a decent reference.....What are they trading ? Individual stocks or the E-Mini's ?
Ah....no real-time E-Mini calls. I'm looking for real-time E-Mini trades.
No, that morning briefing is different. There is a whole room that goes all day and you do see real time stuff, particularly in the morning. If you want a trial, here is a link (s/b no cc req'd) Free Trial | Polaris Trading Group for Stocks and Futures Traders
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Yes...is the short answer. He has spent some years figuring out how to run a room and trade...and realized he was missing his own setups. So he spent quite some effort creating indicators to show setups. And thusly, (is that a word, LOL) many are on screen, real time, live and in color. There are also some auto trading options. I turned on the opening range ones today (in sim, since I'm still getting organized) and 2 of the 3 instruments triggered (sometimes they don't, depending on parameters of risk, etc.) and it happened that both were nicely profitable. As an aside, while working out my charts on my computer, I showed him my Bookmap and (never having seen it before) he started reading it real time virtually trading the heck out of it...he knows his stuff.
Yes sir, I have great success trading with them. I have been with them since 2013. The chat room is free, you should check it out and decide for yourself.
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ignore the 30,000 companies to play off of three or four extreme outliers..
problem with enron was that California set up a economics over energy that let enron sell back energy they bought
how normal is that without politics?
ALSO... note that most of those people were not capable of trading their own money..
discount brokers did not exist, and at that time, many if not most, were trusting the professionals they gave permission to trade their accounts...
Enron was 1985..
to even have a broker account required a minimum of 50k...
[the only companies a regular person could afford to get were in DRIPS... where you paid to receive actual shares and hold them yourself...]
According to Gary Gastineau, author of "The Exchange-Traded Funds Manual," the first real attempt at something like an ETF was the launch of Index Participation Shares for the S&P 500 in 1989. - investopedia
Prior to the May Day changes, brokers charged a fixed-rate commission for all traders, with no regard for the size of the trade. Small-time investors paid a high percentage of potential profits in fees and commissions, as total costs could be hundreds of dollars. Brokers risked being expelled if they charged a lower price to investors. // Leading the way was Charles Schwab, who founded his namesake company in 1971. The Charles Schwab Corporation began offering discounted stock trades on May 1, 1975, becoming one of the first discount brokerages. This included lower fees for less investment advice from stock advisors. Other discount brokers started to pop up as a result of the May Day deregulation of commission fees, paving the way for the online discount brokerages we know today.
the weekly earnings of an average man was about 155 dollars..
so the people investing in enron were not the average joe that stayed in by any means..
the devil is always in the details...
forgot to mention
It started when Congress passed the Revenue Act of 1978, which included a provision that was added to the Internal Revenue Code — Section 401(k) — that allowed employees to avoid being taxed on deferred compensation.
so very few people had 401k accounts..
VERY few....
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Thats true... i did only mention Mickey dees... but as an example of what happend vs what people do
even if they DID take a winner like mickey dees... how many would have held on to it and not sold till now?
this is one reason why the very wealthy get more...
they have enough that they do not bother to look at something they have accumulated to dip into it
for my parents to have to have left it alone, they would have had to remain in the lower middle class while watching their investment accrue able to pay off bills and make life easier... (though that might have happened that my estimate ignores the dividends of such)
but there is much longer list of companies that came out like mickey dees than enron..
list of companies from the 1980s (i dont know how many had drips... so lets say you had the 50k and diversified, and left it alone]
all these were the fortune 500 in 1980
Microsoft, p&g, caterpillar, BP, Marathon Oil, 3M, General foods, altria, coca cola, J&J...
an article from 2011..
If you had bought 100 shares of Microsoft 25 years ago ...
Sunday marks 25th anniversary of company's initial public stock offering If you had the good fortune to have bought 100 shares at the $21 offering price that day and sat on the investment for 25 years, it would have mushroomed into 28,800 shares over the course of nine stock splits and be worth about three quarters of a million dollars today.
my uncle was able to leave 2 million to each of his three kids because he had P&G and never used or touched it
[and they have, not done well with it when they could have lived off of the dividends and such if they just were modest!]
My point is the common point of most advisors to investing..
time WAS your friend... and most people didnt take advantage of it..
they come in later in life and hope to make up for lost... time
another article from 2017
If you had invested $1,000 in each of just three companies back in the 1980s — Apple, Microsoft and M&T Bank — you would be a millionaire today. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/23/investing-3000-in-3-stocks-in-1980s-would-have-made-you-a-millionaire.html
If you had invested $1,000 in each of just three companies back in the 1980s — Apple, Microsoft and M&T Bank — you would be a millionaire today.
That’s according to Standard and Poor’s Howard Silverblatt, who calculated as follows, using data through the end of 2016:
If you put $1,000 in Apple in 1980, you would have $228,113
If you put $1,000 in Microsoft in 1987, you would have $546,996
And if you put $1,000 in M&T in 1980, you would have $640,948
a diversified portfolio of very modest means, of good companies (not chasing after super fast crazy profits like enron) would yeild really good results after 40 years...
but you have to be smart enough to do that in your 20s... to reap it in your 60s..
and most of our lives we hear nothing but horror stories and doom and gloom about the market we spend more on trying to win the lottery in that period than we did buying a few shares and leaving it alone!
so my comment was more as to human nature being the driver of investing than smarts...
even myself was very dumb about it... and i am paying the price now for it.
No one!! To my knowledge, there is no governing body and there is no one to complain to and they don't need any certifications or anything. So buyer beware. Best you can do is complain on a thread like on this forum so others can be forewarned.
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Nope I can't find anything anywhere on who regulates educators or trading rooms if anyone does.
If it is that obvious I missed it. Please enlighten me or refer me to someplace I can look.
There must be enough vendors here for someone to give me a strait answer.
I have seen where futures trading rooms have to have a CYA disclosure but haven't found anything for stock market rooms or vendors selling trading courses.
"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
Well then ... isn't this "horse has left the barn" situation.
I don't hand over money to anyone (never on the net besides of course places like Amazon) without knowing their full story. Protection starts, and most times end, with self.
If I ask a vendor for a performance report or proof that their system works I usually get "the regulators won't let me divulge that" as a reply. I'm just trying to find out what regulators.
I don't get an answer when I ask that question. I was hoping that someone on this forum might know and be able to point to the regulation.
"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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I don't have much experience in this, I generally go by the rule of fraud until proven otherwise.
But I really don't think there is any regulation/regulator anywhere (not just US) that prevents any vendor from disclosing his proof of system being profitable. In fact they should be liable to provide you with whatever you are asking since they are selling service based on it. I would be really really surprised if there is anything that hinders it.
This is probably some excuse to dodge your question I think.
As mentioned in my post back in February, everyone is liable for fraud. Just because the trading room is not registered anywhere doesn't make it so that they can post whatever they want. The futures industry is pretty tough on this. CFTC is quick to respond to deceptive practices. However, you need to have information that clearly shows that fraud is being committed.
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Is posting n YouTube that you made a thousand dollars trading a stock, when you have no record of the trade considered fraud? Especially if you have a CYA disclaimer that trades may not be real.
I have asked a couple sites if they are regulated. The standard answer I seem to get is "We are a US company and follow US and SEC regulations." I don't see any SEC regulations that cover unlicensed trade rooms or educators. What they are selling could almost be classed as entertainment.
I don't see any regulators when It comes to selling trading education.
"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
Yes, they may not be registered and under the jurisdiction of the SEC or CFTC or FINRA. However, they are still selling something and are a commercial entity even if under an individual's name. For this reason, each state has a business regulator and an attorney general's office which handles complaints. In addition, the FTC can get involved along with with other agencies depending on how the fraud is being committed. Just because a person is not registered doesn't make them immune from prosecution for false advertising, fraud or embezzlement.
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No. Anyone can post past performance and whatever they want as long as they can substantiate it. The rub is that if they post that performance and BASED on this, they generate revenue/income from investors or customers and that performance is untrue, then that is fraud. Fraud is fraud. You don't have to be regulated to be prohibited from committing fraud.
The past performance disclaimer is intended to state a truth: That just because it happened this way in the past is no guarantee that it will keep happening. That's just common sense. But it doesn't absolve someone from lying about past performance.
People choose not to post their performance for a variety of legitimate reasons. So just because someone doesn't do so isn't an indication of anything. Claiming that they can't post their performance is not really a reason unless they are forbidden from doing so as a result of confidentiality or compliance with their employer/fund, etc.
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