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Orderflow ES chat rooms


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Orderflow ES chat rooms

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  #1 (permalink)
 Volt 
Whitehall, NY
 
Experience: Advanced
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I'm not sure where to post this but there is so much info on here about order flow but I have yet to find any chat rooms that are analyzing it in real time with much success. Most all speak in generalities or after the fact screen shots. So is there ANYONE who markets education ( Especially for the ES) that can actually trade with orderflow and shows you real time results? I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs. If there is a thread that speaks directly to my inquiry then please direct me there and I apologize for wasting time and causing others effort. It's frustrating to see vendor after vendor pop up without any kind of tradeable track record... I think it's time to crack down and sift through to get to what is real. All this stuff reminds me of the old gold rush stories....You're gonna get rich by finding gold but the real money was made by those selling the tools and supplies to those trying to find the gold. Sorry that this probably comes off as offensive and some vendors may get defensive but let's see some real results from the people peddling the product as the trades unfold.

Volt

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  #3 (permalink)
lightsun47
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I second this.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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  #4 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
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Quebec
 
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Higher High, Higher Low = order flow is long
Lower High Lower Low = order flow is short.

Is that short and sweet enough?


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  #5 (permalink)
lightsun47
Toronto, Canada
 
 
Posts: 140 since May 2018
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Muhaha. I wish it was that easy!

On a side note, I had tried Bob's Veritas Futures trading room for a month. He uses order flow to trade. He does show his DOM with live account each time he takes trades. He trades like 20 instruments. The only problem was, when he would get in after buyers / sellers stack and imbalance gets created, he would start 'hoping' the trade worked, especially after it started to lose the grip. This in my mind is not a good thing because hope doesn't work here. Only your edge works.

Right @trendisyourfriend?

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  #6 (permalink)
 Volt 
Whitehall, NY
 
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you don't mention an answer to my questions but your answer says it all I guess! They just don't exist and all this orderflow talk and tape reading, footprints, bookmap, jigsaw etc , etc is just a mirage......more snake oil.....funny how there is no shortage of people that buy into it without any trade results.
trendisyourfriend View Post
Higher High, Higher Low = order flow is long
Lower High Lower Low = order flow is short.

Is that short and sweet enough?



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  #7 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Higher High, Higher Low = order flow is long
Lower High Lower Low = order flow is short.

Is that short and sweet enough?


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  #8 (permalink)
 a1imran 
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Great

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  #9 (permalink)
 GoldLinx 
New York City, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
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The difficulty in "teaching" orderflow is similar to trying to write a book about how to play football.

Obviously in football there are plays (setups if you will), formations (chart patterns), and an overall game-plan (perhaps higher time-frame context). But if you have ever played a sport, you know, that is not how the game is played. There are numerous variables and factors at play when between the whistle.

So how would you go about teaching a football player, how to build his intuition during the game and amidst a particular play? Having played sports at a high level myself, I can tell you that game experience is really the differentiation when it comes to on-field intuition. In sports you build subconscious pattern recognition, over hundreds to thousands of hours. The best players in the world are not only talented physically, but talented in terms of availability of their focus. Is it crazy to think trading is similar?

Orderflow is NOT a setup, its a read. Again to make a football example, the PLAY is the setup, order flow is when the QB looks at the free-safety in the middle of the field and knows he wants to throw the out route. But remember, no team sends a QB in and says make up a play based on what you feel like the defense is about to do.

Even the people I know scalping for ticks, still have some sort of pattern they use or will only be involved during the highest volume times etc. There is no system where you just pick inflections in the market over and over again all day at will. Even the oh so scary "algos" are not doing that.

To answer your question about Order Flow vendors, honestly most educational sales people go the route of teaching chart patterns and indicators. Because it's so simple that everyone believes they can pick it up tomorrow and make money. It's not as lucrative to tell someone they will need to watch the market for months without impulsively entering the trades just so "see" if perhaps they've developed a very small edge.


Volt View Post
you don't mention an answer to my questions but your answer says it all I guess! They just don't exist and all this orderflow talk and tape reading, footprints, bookmap, jigsaw etc , etc is just a mirage......more snake oil.....funny how there is no shortage of people that buy into it without any trade results.

With that being said, several of these tools you've listed I have personally used with success.

First, "tape reading" which is absolutely not "snake oil" and also completely free for you to begin looking at, is just observing the DOM and Time&Sales at these potentioal inflection points that you should have outlined in your pre-market.

I personally use Footprint charts as my PRIMARY source of analysis intraday. I also use bookmap, but honestly, I'm pretty confident I could execute my edge with just the footprint chart, volume profile, and regular candle stick charts. With no other tools or indicators or anything on my charts.

Also, I can confidently recommend the Footprint course, by Barrett Brannigan from Axia Futures. In fact, Axia Futures puts out enough free content on YouTube you could become pretty dangerous with just that alone. Additionally, I can't say definitively that Peter Davies at Jigsaw makes money trading the markets, but he sounds legit enough to me that you could definitely grab some ideas from him for you to test out yourself. I wouldn't worry so much on someone's exact profitability, more on their overall reputation and longevity in the game. Watch people's free content, if you have marinated on that for a month or two and still like what you see, then perhaps consider the purchase of a course. Even when getting ideas from a profitable trader, you will most likely not be able to trade them in the same nuanced way, take other's setups and dress them with your own rules and parameters, test that on sim, make tweaks, test it live, make tweaks.

Honestly man, orderflow is a tough one and if you want to learn it you will probably need to be content with piecing together information from several sources and learning based on your own experiences. But hey, that's actually trading.

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  #10 (permalink)
 tgiann3 
Jacksonville
 
Experience: None
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Posts: 13 since Aug 2017
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Ross from Warrior trading records some of his trades so you can see t&s & L2 but itís pretty hard to see bc itís so small. Personally, and Iíve been doing this less time than others, I feel this is the exact reason for simulator time. At first it may seem like a mystery but over time, especially if youíve gotten some sort of primer on it, it becomes self explanatory
.


Best of luck

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  #11 (permalink)
 Lancer 
Seattle, USA
 
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Have you checked out Neurostreet live futures trade room?

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  #12 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
Experience: Advanced
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Well, Jigsaw chat room has a bunch of people in there, trading live accounts, all order flow based. They are all day in there talking about Es and other contracts, talk about areas of interest, showing they trades, where everybody can see they are trading live account. Also there's guys in there trading sim accounts, but they are all behaved people, ready to help those who need help.

Not really sure if this is what you're looking for.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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  #13 (permalink)
ReaM
Los Angeles
 
 
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There are no profitable trading rooms, because good trades are limited in volume and the pie has to be divided up by people who know how to trade. Why would a guy who makes money and knows why he's making money give up a chunk of his profits?

This unfortunately also means that every trading room that charges money is a scam.

As for the order flow, it gives you absolutely no edge. With that said, you absolutely need to see the trades happening, you can do it with a volume profile, a tape, a good dom (jigsaw) or some order flow tool. I personally use volume profile which you can span and stretch over desired time period. You are kind of at a disadvantage if you are not seeing the volume so one of them is a must.

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  #14 (permalink)
 Tradarr 
Atlanta Ga. USA
 
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Volt View Post
I'm not sure where to post this but there is so much info on here about order flow but I have yet to find any chat rooms that are analyzing it in real time with much success. Most all speak in generalities or after the fact screen shots. So is there ANYONE who markets education ( Especially for the ES) that can actually trade with orderflow and shows you real time results? I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs. If there is a thread that speaks directly to my inquiry then please direct me there and I apologize for wasting time and causing others effort. It's frustrating to see vendor after vendor pop up without any kind of tradeable track record... I think it's time to crack down and sift through to get to what is real. All this stuff reminds me of the old gold rush stories....You're gonna get rich by finding gold but the real money was made by those selling the tools and supplies to those trying to find the gold. Sorry that this probably comes off as offensive and some vendors may get defensive but let's see some real results from the people peddling the product as the trades unfold.

Volt

https://mboxwave.com/mboxwave-apprenticeship-training

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  #15 (permalink)
 elitecamper 
McAllen, TX
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multicharts, Sierracharts
Trading: ES, NQ, ZB, ZN
 
Posts: 55 since May 2013
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I don't think its realistic to trade with orderflow and chat at the same time as the market is moving too fast. by the time you type up something you could shaken out of a trade. I don't trade off order flow myself I use a dom for order entry and you could use the jigsaw dom and see the numbers lifting the offers or hitting the bids. Or you could use the reconstructed tape.

Maybe I don't know how to use these tools to their full advantage but I can read charts pretty well because what matters most is price.

Lastly I think that what your asking for is spoon feeding and you need to be a grown up about trading. Get out there and trade and learn from your losses and wins. Use whichever tools that speak to you.

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  #16 (permalink)
 2KEY 
Miami, Florida
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninjatrader, Ninjabroker
Broker: NINJABROKER, Continuum, KINETICK
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Posts: 12 since Aug 2010
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Suggest you look at: https://nstradingacademy.com/

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  #17 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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arnie View Post
Well, Jigsaw chat room has a bunch of people in there, trading live accounts, all order flow based. They are all day in there talking about Es and other contracts, talk about areas of interest, showing they trades, where everybody can see they are trading live account. Also there's guys in there trading sim accounts, but they are all behaved people, ready to help those who need help.

Not really sure if this is what you're looking for.

Jigsaw is the place to start. Watch all their videos on YouTube. Then check out John Grady's course at
https://www.nobsdaytrading.com/
There's a nice interview with John on Chat With Traders: https://soundcloud.com/chat-with-traders/ep-148-john-grady-no-bs-day-trading

Jigsaw is also offering a course by Gary Norden, a well known order flow trader.

The DOM and the tape are the essence of order flow.

Jigsaw also has a chatroom. I've never been in it but it might be helpful because they're all using the Jigsaw DOM
as far as I know.

Not surprised there are no trading rooms for order flow. It's an acquired skill, not a chart setup.

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  #18 (permalink)
 Ricky G 
saskatchewan canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Trading: nq
 
Posts: 3 since Dec 2013
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try orderflowanalytics.com

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  #19 (permalink)
 Meklon 
New York, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: RTY, ES, YM, NQ, CL, NG, GC, HG
 
Posts: 60 since Oct 2016
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Volt View Post
you don't mention an answer to my questions but your answer says it all I guess! They just don't exist and all this orderflow talk and tape reading, footprints, bookmap, jigsaw etc , etc is just a mirage......more snake oil.....funny how there is no shortage of people that buy into it without any trade results.

First of all, I think you have an attitude problem. Whether itís caused by a personal failure in trading or a bad experience with some of the tools you have purchased and do not know how to use I donít know and frankly donít care. But coming in here and making assertions such as Order Flow talk is all smoke and mirrors, mirage, snake oil, etc. will yield you NO help and NO results.

Trading is an art that is based on deep understanding of internal market mechanisms called CONTEXT. Order Flow in general, Foot Print, BookMap, Jigsaw and other tools are JUST TOOLS. Itís you as a trader who is responsible for understanding how to use them and implement in order to gain your edge over other market participants.

Based on your initial post and few follow ups I can say that you are just another newbie who expects for the Order Flow to be a Holly Grail that will give you a green or red light when to buy and when to sell. It will not. Itís a tool that can help you to interpret market action and learning how to use it and understand it is entirely your responsibility.

My initial thought was to point you to one of the trading room that I know generates results and holds everyone (including its moderator) accountable for the trades, but after reading your outbursts I believe you will cause a problem there rather than actually learn something.

My advice to you is to learn how the market works and learn the tools (including the Order Flow) that can help you to recognize repeated patterns. Then you can start working on self-discipline, trade management and properly assessing risk / reward.

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  #20 (permalink)
 Leon Blokland 
Amsterdam Netherlands
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 19 since Aug 2015
Thanks: 1 given, 21 received

Hello,

Check out Retail Fade.

Live order flow trading.

https://www.retailfade.com/

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  #21 (permalink)
 LonnieMSP 
Minneapolis
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Optimus Futures, CQG
Trading: E-mini ES,
 
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John Grady from NoBSDayTrading puts on a webinar a couple times a year for those who have gone through his course. He trades smaller size than usual, but you canít really follow Order Flow trading and enter and exit like other strategies. Itís like watching a doctor do an autopsy in real-time and trying to mimic them at the same time.

Peter Davies from Jigsaw is also a solid choice for learning Order Flow.

Screen time and a proper introduction is more important than following someoneís chat IMHO.

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  #22 (permalink)
 madmaxtrw 
Henderson, NV
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: NQ
 
Posts: 1 since Mar 2016
Thanks: 1 given, 1 received

All replies that i have seen before and still not answering the question of any evidence indicating profits/loss.


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  #23 (permalink)
 buylosellhi 
new york
 
Experience: None
Platform: SierraChart
 
Posts: 65 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 1 given, 35 received

No point wasting time as there is no one out there - whether its orderflow or any other method of trading.
There is no way anyone who is trading and making money is sitting around running a live chat room
I'm sure you could find somebody who trades and makes some money but they need to supplement their trading income with seminars/courses, as whatever it is thats lacking in their trading (method/psychological blocks etc) they havent truly broken through yet.

its no different in trading than in any other field. you could find a professional athlete (golf/tennis etc) who could make some money from the sport but need to work as coaches at local clubs to make a living. as an amateur, you can learn from these pros, but the net result most likely will still be a better amateur and not much more than that. There is zero chance Tiger Woods or Roger Federer (or even a top 100 athlete) is sitting around offering lessons ....

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  #24 (permalink)
JamesPowell
conyers ga usa
 
 
Posts: 17 since Nov 2016
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you think your request was bad im probably going to get shot for my reply to you...you are 100% accurate in your "gold rush" analogy. That's what trading is as a matter of fact. Short term trading aka "day trading" that is. There is dang good reason almost all day traders loose all their money. The answer to your question is that there are no traders that will show you live trading. Especially order flow trading. Because what moves markets is unfilled institutional orders. The level 2 data you are looking at contains no institutional orders. Its all 100% retail orders. Yours and mine. There are laws, rules and regulations that prevent the public from seeing institutional orders. So what I am saying is that you and I and anyone else in the world that wants to can see all the retail orders you care to look at. So can the institutional traders. But not the other way round. There is no public access to institutional order flow. In fact most if now all retail brokers do not even have access to it. Hell they cant even fill your orders. They sell your orders to a third party to actually get your orders filled. Proof? Nope. Just deduction. I too use to trade ES and I also have been a follower of "supply demand" based trading. So there was always three points. For every buyer there was a seller and vice verse. Second for price to go higher there has to be more buyers than sellers...you see the conflict already right? Third for price to go down there had to be more sellers than buyers...again the conflict. So as an example on a big down day the conflict became blatantly obvious. On a big down day in the ES looking at the DOM it was painfully obvious that there would be as much as 10X the BUYERS than there would be sellers ON A BIG BIG DOWN DAY. How the hell can this be? The answer is this and it resolves the conflict. There is in fact a buyer for ever seller AND there are also more sellers than buyers pushing price down. Let me explain. As I said and anyone can attest on a big down day in the ES there are in fact way more buyers on the DOM than sellers but price went down anyway. This is because the institutional side is invisible to us as retail traders. There were in fact more institutional sellers - which pushed price down. Also for every one of those institutional sell orders there was in fact a buy order as well. Trouble is they were retail buy orders. Hence on the DOM on a huge down day on the ES it is not uncommon to see way way more buyers than sellers. Because the order flow we are permitted to see is all totally 100% retail orders and zero institutional. That's not so say you still cant win. Because some traders do. But the odds of you winning consistently day trading are very slim. Just because of the invisible factor.

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  #25 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
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GoldLinx View Post
The difficulty in "teaching" orderflow is similar to trying to write a book about how to play football.......................

Honestly man, orderflow is a tough one and if you want to learn it you will probably need to be content with piecing together information from several sources and learning based on your own experiences. But hey, that's actually trading.

Well put. It takes a lot of work on the trader's part. Low success rate in this (or any other profession) can be attributed mainly to lack of preparation and work and time dedicated on the individual's part. Not the guru or the book or the course.

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  #26 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
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madmaxtrw View Post
All replies that i have seen before and still not answering the question of any evidence indicating profits/loss.


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These are order flow trades today off the Jigsaw platform. I also use my own setup on a chart, but it's primarily order flow.
And yes, it can be done.

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  #27 (permalink)
Artfldgr
New York + New York / USA
 
 
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GoldLinx View Post
So how would you go about teaching a football player, how to build his intuition during the game and amidst a particular play?

The short version of your comment would be:
You cant learn to swim if you wont get wet...

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  #28 (permalink)
Artfldgr
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JamesPowell View Post
you think your request was bad im probably going to get shot for my reply to you...you are 100% accurate in your "gold rush" analogy. That's what trading is as a matter of fact. Short term trading aka "day trading" that is. There is dang good reason almost all day traders loose all their money. The answer to your question is that there are no traders that will show you live trading. Especially order flow trading. Because what moves markets is unfilled institutional orders. The level 2 data you are looking at contains no institutional orders. Its all 100% retail orders. Yours and mine. There are laws, rules and regulations that prevent the public from seeing institutional orders. So what I am saying is that you and I and anyone else in the world that wants to can see all the retail orders you care to look at. So can the institutional traders. But not the other way round. There is no public access to institutional order flow. In fact most if now all retail brokers do not even have access to it. Hell they cant even fill your orders. They sell your orders to a third party to actually get your orders filled. Proof? Nope. Just deduction. I too use to trade ES and I also have been a follower of "supply demand" based trading. So there was always three points. For every buyer there was a seller and vice verse. Second for price to go higher there has to be more buyers than sellers...you see the conflict already right? Third for price to go down there had to be more sellers than buyers...again the conflict. So as an example on a big down day the conflict became blatantly obvious. On a big down day in the ES looking at the DOM it was painfully obvious that there would be as much as 10X the BUYERS than there would be sellers ON A BIG BIG DOWN DAY. How the hell can this be? The answer is this and it resolves the conflict. There is in fact a buyer for ever seller AND there are also more sellers than buyers pushing price down. Let me explain. As I said and anyone can attest on a big down day in the ES there are in fact way more buyers on the DOM than sellers but price went down anyway. This is because the institutional side is invisible to us as retail traders. There were in fact more institutional sellers - which pushed price down. Also for every one of those institutional sell orders there was in fact a buy order as well. Trouble is they were retail buy orders. Hence on the DOM on a huge down day on the ES it is not uncommon to see way way more buyers than sellers. Because the order flow we are permitted to see is all totally 100% retail orders and zero institutional. That's not so say you still cant win. Because some traders do. But the odds of you winning consistently day trading are very slim. Just because of the invisible factor.

It can be even worse than that as some institutional traders divide their requests among several smaller owned entities to do the leg work for them... As long as their reporting is right, that is what matters to them and their acquisitions or dumping...

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  #29 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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Artfldgr View Post
It can be even worse than that as some institutional traders divide their requests among several smaller owned entities to do the leg work for them... As long as their reporting is right, that is what matters to them and their acquisitions or dumping...


What you both say may be true. I've observed "strange" behavior on the 30 yr which is inexplicable. There's always spoofing regardless what the CFTC says about oversight.

A work-around is to build a simple automated strategy that you can back test for decent outcome. Then use the Jigsaw platform to confirm the trades. I've done that with the simple indicator that I uploaded yesterday to the Elite download section.

You need to be a little creative in how you approach these problems. Think gaming, military strategy - if you know part of your enemy is hidden, try to beat them by jumping over them. You need some leverage to do this, but it is doable.

I think people give up on order flow because it looks like a mess on the DOM. But it's really the only tool in our toolkit that shows some of the live price action.

Take your tookkit and start pulling the parts together.

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  #30 (permalink)
 n7ekg 
Pahrump, NV
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
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Trading: ES, NQ, CL
 
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phantomtrader View Post
What you both say may be true. I've observed "strange" behavior on the 30 yr which is inexplicable. There's always spoofing regardless what the CFTC says about oversight.

A work-around is to build a simple automated strategy that you can back test for decent outcome. Then use the Jigsaw platform to confirm the trades. I've done that with the simple indicator that I uploaded yesterday to the Elite download section.

You need to be a little creative in how you approach these problems. Think gaming, military strategy - if you know part of your enemy is hidden, try to beat them by jumping over them. You need some leverage to do this, but it is doable.

I think people give up on order flow because it looks like a mess on the DOM. But it's really the only tool in our toolkit that shows some of the live price action.

Take your tookkit and start pulling the parts together.

Roger that on the spoofing! I see it every day.

In order to properly interpret order flow takes knowledge of what absorption and exhaustion looks like on the DOM, too. You have to be able to interpret what you're seeing on the DOM, both in terms of resting orders and filled orders, what buyers and sellers are doing, both at each price level and as price action moves up and down. You also have to pay close attention to volume - are the buyers or sellers losing interest as price goes up or down? Or are they all piling in at a particular point? Are those resting orders likely to be real, or are they spoofed orders? Context is very important.

The best I've seen is a guy named Ray over at compassfx. He's based in London and is a quant and bank trader. He's forgotten more than what I've learned about trading, for sure. He doesn't sit around and put on a trade and "hope it works out" - this guy KNOWS. Check him out at https://compassfx.com/master-trading-training/

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  #31 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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n7ekg View Post
Roger that on the spoofing! I see it every day.

In order to properly interpret order flow takes knowledge of what absorption and exhaustion looks like on the DOM, too. You have to be able to interpret what you're seeing on the DOM, both in terms of resting orders and filled orders, what buyers and sellers are doing, both at each price level and as price action moves up and down. You also have to pay close attention to volume - are the buyers or sellers losing interest as price goes up or down? Or are they all piling in at a particular point? Are those resting orders likely to be real, or are they spoofed orders? Context is very important.

The best I've seen is a guy named Ray over at compassfx. He's based in London and is a quant and bank trader. He's forgotten more than what I've learned about trading, for sure. He doesn't sit around and put on a trade and "hope it works out" - this guy KNOWS. Check him out at https://compassfx.com/master-trading-training/

Absolutely. What you mentioned about absorption and exhaustion is critical. When you see absorption, pay attention because that's real. The spoofing thing is annoying but you get used to it. I don't know how they do it in fast moving markets like the NQ. Gives me a headache just to watch it! That's why I stick to bonds.
The order flow learning curve is steep - but without it you're dead in the H20 in my opinion.

I heard about compassfx somewhere else - I forget where. I'll look at it again. It's always informative to watch someone who knows what they're doing. Thanks for the reference.

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  #32 (permalink)
 tomalley 
dublin , ireland
 
Experience: None
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Trading: ES
 
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Volt View Post
I'm not sure where to post this but there is so much info on here about order flow but I have yet to find any chat rooms that are analyzing it in real time with much success. Most all speak in generalities or after the fact screen shots. So is there ANYONE who markets education ( Especially for the ES) that can actually trade with orderflow and shows you real time results? I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs. If there is a thread that speaks directly to my inquiry then please direct me there and I apologize for wasting time and causing others effort. It's frustrating to see vendor after vendor pop up without any kind of tradeable track record... I think it's time to crack down and sift through to get to what is real. All this stuff reminds me of the old gold rush stories....You're gonna get rich by finding gold but the real money was made by those selling the tools and supplies to those trying to find the gold. Sorry that this probably comes off as offensive and some vendors may get defensive but let's see some real results from the people peddling the product as the trades unfold.

Volt

You should check out FT71 and his proprietary convergent trading room. A lot of the guys who attend his daily market prep videos are constantly recommending it,, problem is you have to pay 69$ per month until the end of Feb and then 99$ thereafter but as I said, it seems highly rated. Am thinking of joining it myself.

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  #33 (permalink)
 TheBenefactor 
Pensacola FL
 
 
Posts: 57 since Jun 2016

Is there anyone getting rich trading?

Yep.

And you want their track record and proof and helpful hints?

You got it.

AND YOU DONT WANT TO SPEND A DIME FOR IT?

Not too many of those people around.

I will make a deal with you.

Find me a world class lawyer. Not an accident case where you dont pay unless they win, where they always get some kind of settlement from an insurance company:

How about a Criminal lawer? Or maybe you want a partnership agreement with 3 partners, sell stock, buy out plan, LLC formation.

I want that lawyer to do a job for Free. Just to see how good he is. Then I will give him a ton of business.

YOU can't find one?

Oh. Then there is no such thing as lawyers.

Pretty weak logic right.

TB

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  #34 (permalink)
 TheBenefactor 
Pensacola FL
 
 
Posts: 57 since Jun 2016


tomalley View Post
You should check out FT71 and his proprietary convergent trading room. A lot of the guys who attend his daily market prep videos are constantly recommending it,, problem is you have to pay 69$ per month until the end of Feb and then 99$ thereafter but as I said, it seems highly rated. Am thinking of joining it myself.

Cant be that good if he charges 99.00

Or he or she is an idiot.

Think about it. 3,000 trading room people are scams. They all lose money.

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET who is the real deal. You make money all the time, your advice is right on.

So you decide to work with some snivelling newbie who cant change his diapers, if he loses money will blame you, and you will work for $3.00 per day?

Why not get a job at McDonalds? Over here they are paying $14.00 per hour. This guy would have to train 5 people per day to make the same money he could earn flipping burgers. And if someone gets a dry burger they will not post your name on the internet and call you a scam artist.

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  #35 (permalink)
 chancee 
atlanta, georgia, usa
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: tradestation
Trading: futures
 
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No! You will never find a video of someone consistently making money trading futures with order flow or any other method because no one does! Believe what your common sense is trying to tell you.

I believe itís just a matter of time before some harsh regulation finds its way to this industry. Way too many people selling things and causing people to lose money.

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  #36 (permalink)
 ch123456 
Houston+Texas/United States
 
Experience: Intermediate
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chancee View Post
No! You will never find a video of someone consistently making money trading futures with order flow or any other method because no one does! Believe what your common sense is trying to tell you.

I believe itís just a matter of time before some harsh regulation finds its way to this industry. Way too many people selling things and causing people to lose money.

Your experience for your profile says you are an advanced trader. How did you qualify as advanced if you and also no one out there are able to make money?

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 Meklon 
New York, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
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JamesPowell View Post
you think your request was bad im probably going to get shot for my reply to you...you are 100% accurate in your "gold rush" analogy. That's what trading is as a matter of fact. Short term trading aka "day trading" that is. There is dang good reason almost all day traders loose all their money. The answer to your question is that there are no traders that will show you live trading. Especially order flow trading. Because what moves markets is unfilled institutional orders. The level 2 data you are looking at contains no institutional orders. Its all 100% retail orders. Yours and mine. There are laws, rules and regulations that prevent the public from seeing institutional orders. So what I am saying is that you and I and anyone else in the world that wants to can see all the retail orders you care to look at. So can the institutional traders. But not the other way round. There is no public access to institutional order flow. In fact most if now all retail brokers do not even have access to it. Hell they cant even fill your orders. They sell your orders to a third party to actually get your orders filled. Proof? Nope. Just deduction. I too use to trade ES and I also have been a follower of "supply demand" based trading. So there was always three points. For every buyer there was a seller and vice verse. Second for price to go higher there has to be more buyers than sellers...you see the conflict already right? Third for price to go down there had to be more sellers than buyers...again the conflict. So as an example on a big down day the conflict became blatantly obvious. On a big down day in the ES looking at the DOM it was painfully obvious that there would be as much as 10X the BUYERS than there would be sellers ON A BIG BIG DOWN DAY. How the hell can this be? The answer is this and it resolves the conflict. There is in fact a buyer for ever seller AND there are also more sellers than buyers pushing price down. Let me explain. As I said and anyone can attest on a big down day in the ES there are in fact way more buyers on the DOM than sellers but price went down anyway. This is because the institutional side is invisible to us as retail traders. There were in fact more institutional sellers - which pushed price down. Also for every one of those institutional sell orders there was in fact a buy order as well. Trouble is they were retail buy orders. Hence on the DOM on a huge down day on the ES it is not uncommon to see way way more buyers than sellers. Because the order flow we are permitted to see is all totally 100% retail orders and zero institutional. That's not so say you still cant win. Because some traders do. But the odds of you winning consistently day trading are very slim. Just because of the invisible factor.

What you have wrote above is an utter nonesense, pretty much all of it. You simply do not understand market action theory and the Order Flow for that matter. You are also doing a damage to people who willing to learn by asserting false information (I.e. conflict of interest by brokers, inability to fill orders, not being able to see institutional orders, etc.) things you cannot prove.

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  #38 (permalink)
 chancee 
atlanta, georgia, usa
 
Experience: Advanced
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ch123456 View Post
Your experience for your profile says you are an advanced trader. How did you qualify as advanced if you and also no one out there are able to make money?

Easy, you just have to keep trying for like 5 to 10 years and youíll become advanced too. Wonít make any money but youíll be advanced.

Do yourself a favor and go to plan B now. Youíll thank me someday.

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  #39 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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TheBenefactor View Post
Cant be that good if he charges 99.00

Or he or she is an idiot.

Think about it. 3,000 trading room people are scams. They all lose money.

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET who is the real deal. You make money all the time, your advice is right on.

So you decide to work with some snivelling newbie who cant change his diapers, if he loses money will blame you, and you will work for $3.00 per day?

Why not get a job at McDonalds? Over here they are paying $14.00 per hour. This guy would have to train 5 people per day to make the same money he could earn flipping burgers. And if someone gets a dry burger they will not post your name on the internet and call you a scam artist.

FT71 has been around for a long time. He doesn't charge much. He likes to talk to people and interface with other traders. Nothing wrong with that. I think he shares his methodology freely. I've never attended his trading room but if the guy was a scam artist, he wouldn't be around as long as he has. He has a good reputation and that's what counts.

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  #40 (permalink)
 Meklon 
New York, USA
 
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phantomtrader View Post
FT71 has been around for a long time. He doesn't charge much. He likes to talk to people and interface with other traders. Nothing wrong with that. I think he shares his methodology freely. I've never attended his trading room but if the guy was a scam artist, he wouldn't be around as long as he has. He has a good reputation and that's what counts.

I second that. FT71 is not making money off the membership fee. His business model is entirely different. He was an owner of a Prop firm before and currently setting up a community of disciplined traders that will generate even more business for him and his firm. Morad is GOOD person and does a lot of good for education of people FOR FREE.

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  #41 (permalink)
 tomalley 
dublin , ireland
 
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TheBenefactor View Post
Cant be that good if he charges 99.00

Or he or she is an idiot.

Think about it. 3,000 trading room people are scams. They all lose money.

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET who is the real deal. You make money all the time, your advice is right on.

So you decide to work with some snivelling newbie who cant change his diapers, if he loses money will blame you, and you will work for $3.00 per day?

Why not get a job at McDonalds? Over here they are paying $14.00 per hour. This guy would have to train 5 people per day to make the same money he could earn flipping burgers. And if someone gets a dry burger they will not post your name on the internet and call you a scam artist.

Please do not reply to any of my comments ever again , thank you.

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  #42 (permalink)
 bmw421 
New Orleans Louisiana
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Trading: futures
 
Posts: 6 since Jul 2013
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Hi Volt,

I'm sure there is alot of information in the trading arena about orderflow. You have a great question. I personally been a person who tries to understand all of this world of trading, and with technology now man you can get a lot of information that can fry the brain, so over the last several I've learned to keep it simple and with orderflow now I see markets from a different perspective.

I have been know a gentleman by the name of Bob Amico from Veritas Trading for many years, and he has a great understanding about orderflow and is very knowledgeable in it. He can explain it extremely well and helps you as well one on one if needed.

I'm a member in his room and his trading style might not be for everyone but he makes green most of his days. All of his trades are accounted for and has full transparency on all of his calls.

Bob takes this trading very seriously and sometimes gets upset, BUT , plays the game hard and that's what meets my personality.

Bob does his homework and plays to WIN. My kinda of guy.

Wayne

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  #43 (permalink)
 TheBenefactor 
Pensacola FL
 
 
Posts: 57 since Jun 2016


tomalley View Post
Please do not reply to any of my comments ever again , thank you.

That is a deal. But first please. Don't reply to mine, LOL.

That is like Hirohito asking Roosevelt/Truman, "We are finished with you. Don't ever try to bomb us again."

Seriously, this forum is an open forum, where an intelligent exchange of ideas is permitted.

I simply asked the room if there are indeed, "Mother Teresa like lawyers" who love the little guy as you just inferred by this
munificent trader, and only charges $3.00 per day.

Are there lawyers like that? Good ones?

Perhaps.

Tom Brady loves football. He has a lovely wife, nice kids and has no contract.

Do you think maybe, he could play for some losing team? Just because he is rich and loves football and loves the little guy?

I don't think so.

Of course, my words, busting your get rich quick trading balloon, hurt.

But my advice has cost you nothing.
The market will be nice to you. Some software will happily say "Order Filled." And take all your money.

You donít have to listen to me. 'But donít thin you ever in your wildest dreams could tell me what to do.

Now run along, open an account, and drive a truck a year from now.
TB

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  #44 (permalink)
 TheBenefactor 
Pensacola FL
 
 
Posts: 57 since Jun 2016


bmw421 View Post
Hi Volt,

I'm sure there is alot of information in the trading arena about orderflow. You have a great question. I personally been a person who tries to understand all of this world of trading, and with technology now man you can get a lot of information that can fry the brain, so over the last several I've learned to keep it simple and with orderflow now I see markets from a different perspective.

I have been know a gentleman by the name of Bob Amico from Veritas Trading for many years, and he has a great understanding about orderflow and is very knowledgeable in it. He can explain it extremely well and helps you as well one on one if needed.

I'm a member in his room and his trading style might not be for everyone but he makes green most of his days. All of his trades are accounted for and has full transparency on all of his calls.

Bob takes this trading very seriously and sometimes gets upset, BUT , plays the game hard and that's what meets my personality.

Bob does his homework and plays to WIN. My kinda of guy.

Wayne

Did Bob trade while he was in prison for fraud?

The other question: please ask Bob. When he takes his profits does he give back 50% as one of the conditions of his parole?

He is a nice guy. The other inmates loved his stories about mortgage fraud.

He could earn money without having to mug old ladies. But alas, white collar criminals are eventually caught.

TB

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  #45 (permalink)
 bmw421 
New Orleans Louisiana
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Trading: futures
 
Posts: 6 since Jul 2013
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Hi TB,

I hope you doing well. I'm not a person to hold sins or accounts on anyone. One day we will all stand before the Lord of

Lord and King of Kings and answer for what we have done.

I like the parable of the woman at the well. When Jesus said woman where are your accusers , and there was none.

So before I cast the first stone I better look in the mirror and examine my own heart. I don't want to be the jury and the judge.

Bible says we all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So I thank you for your insight.

I agree with you there are a lot of crooks out there in this business that want to be somebody there not.

Wayne

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  #46 (permalink)
 zidane 
Dubai UAE
 
Experience: None
Platform: TT X trader
Trading: Fesx
 
Posts: 3 since Dec 2017
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You can follow the Pit , couple of traders who discuss trades using footprint Market profile and charting , these guys are serious and if you are beginner i wouldnt advice you to start with them , learn the theory and and follow then on twitter and decide if you wanna join

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  #47 (permalink)
 sigmatrader 
Blythe, CA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader7 and 8
Broker: Rithmic
Trading: CL, GC, UB
 
Posts: 62 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 47 given, 59 received

My guess is Order Flow Analytics(OFA) has a successful trade room for a fee. However, I have not attended it because I am reluctant to put out another $200 + per month for a room, and I have an independent streak. Order Flows Trader(OFT) has a free weekly training Monday evenings at 8PM est. He used to have a trade room when he was in the Philippines. Moved his family back to Chicago last year. I prefer learning from documents and videos and webinars plus forums like futures.io. I have worked with order flow concepts for some years now and have encountered a few vendors and their code. I have licensed OFA code as well as NOFT code, and OFT code. For my uses OFT code is most useful because it has the essential indicators that will plot on both footprints and most other bar types like candlesticks, etc.. It is also compatible with SharkIndicators Bloodhound and Blackbird for creating automated systems. For example, Mike Valtos has had a lifetime of trading experience using orderflow in his employment with major firms and had his knowledge programed for NinjaTrader7 and 8. Some of his indicators are Price Rejection, Delta Scalper, Absorption, Pulse, Bulge, Turns, Enigma, Transition. Like most vendors something new is coming. NOFT does a good job on Trapped Traders. All of Mike's tools are based on Bid Ask volume relationships within a bar and over a series of adjacent bars. OFA has a programmer that in the past year has made the OFA software and its ALGO trader a very practical solution to orderflow trading. The programmer released a new module that permits a trader to create his/her own OF concepts using intrabar bid ask data without knowing C#. Some years back I found a tool on BigMike's forum that has become a core tool in my trading after modifying it. I am trying to trace down the source and see if it has been modified for use with NT8 because the NT7 ver uses GOMI data....which poses problems for some traders. The Bid Ask data source needs to be rerouted from the GOMI file to the NT8 BA data Tick Replay. I am not a C# coder. The secret, I believe, to one aspect of OF trading is using a smoothed normalized delta which this oscillator is based on. When the ratio is greater than 80% or less than -80% a reversal or consolidation is at hand. One major flaw in OF trading was highlighted by Fulcrum Trader in that it showed price and cumulative delta can diverge especially with some symbols(currency futures) and at certain times of day like the latter part of the day.

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  #48 (permalink)
 TheBenefactor 
Pensacola FL
 
 
Posts: 57 since Jun 2016


bmw421 View Post
Hi TB,

I hope you doing well. I'm not a person to hold sins or accounts on anyone. One day we will all stand before the Lord of

Lord and King of Kings and answer for what we have done.

I like the parable of the woman at the well. When Jesus said woman where are your accusers , and there was none.

So before I cast the first stone I better look in the mirror and examine my own heart. I don't want to be the jury and the judge.

Bible says we all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So I thank you for your insight.

I agree with you there are a lot of crooks out there in this business that want to be somebody there not.

Wayne

Thank you for the inspiring message Wayne. I am cheap. I drive a 318 BMW. LOL

Seriously, and I am writing a memoir.

It is about sin and reconciliation. Failure and triumph.

I worked in law enforcement while my brother was killing people for hire. He even did a job for John Gotti as a non-made member.

I suffered from severe addiction to violence myself. Sought psychiatric help.

Spent time in jail. 3 days only LOL

I admitted my sins. Then spent the next 40 years making sure others admit their sins.

I lost money trading for 4 years straight.

Once I "came clean" I have never had a losing month since 2006.

You are right. All can be forgiven. BUT THEY HAVE TO SAY I AM SORRY -- AND MEAN IT.

Jordan Belfort says he "learned from his evil ways." Bull

He is earning $75,000 per month and has not paid back the $20 Million he still owes his victims.

That is not sorry.

Bob "Bam Bam" Amico still has not paid a few million in restitution per court order, yet he has this web site pretending to trade.

HE IS FORBIDDEN TO TRADE PER COURT ORDER. SO IS Richard Carter.

So if these guys really are trading, they go back to jail.

If they are not but pretending they are--then they are defrauding their clients.

That is not being contrite.

TB
Here is a trade for your nice comments.

Buy long Dow futures between 29455 and 29417 Close at end of day.
The market had an average of 92 tick swings. Trade them.

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  #49 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 149 since Nov 2018
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phantomtrader View Post
These are order flow trades today off the Jigsaw platform. I also use my own setup on a chart, but it's primarily order flow.
And yes, it can be done.

Reason why three orders all bought and sold at same time? Then later four more the same?

In other words why not 5 and 5, one shot each?

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  #50 (permalink)
 jmh13 
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Currently right now at 3:08 pm there are approx. 53 people talking about others and stuff you can buy.
If everyone here would collectively put all this effort and focus on some specific trading plan / strategy it work be the best in the universe instead of focusing on things that do nothing but vent your frustrations. My 2 cents worth about 1/2 cent.

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  #51 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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SunTrader View Post
Reason why three orders all bought and sold at same time? Then later four more the same?

In other words why not 5 and 5, one shot each?

They are simply filled at separate times. That's the way their accounting and reporting works. Not up to me.

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  #52 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
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jmh13 View Post
Currently right now at 3:08 pm there are approx. 53 people talking about others and stuff you can buy.
If everyone here would collectively put all this effort and focus on some specific trading plan / strategy it work be the best in the universe instead of focusing on things that do nothing but vent your frustrations. My 2 cents worth about 1/2 cent.

Markets are dynamic processes. One size can't fit all. Even if it did, it would change over time. Group think in markets doesn't work.

You need to think in terms of probability. In other words, come up with an array of trade setups that have some probability of success under a given set of conditions.

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 jmh13 
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You like Bang Bang. Decent trades today? Comments
3 Minute chart NQ
15 Range chart NQ

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  #54 (permalink)
 fthomas59 
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Volt View Post
I'm not sure where to post this but there is so much info on here about order flow but I have yet to find any chat rooms that are analyzing it in real time with much success. Most all speak in generalities or after the fact screen shots. So is there ANYONE who markets education ( Especially for the ES) that can actually trade with orderflow and shows you real time results? I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs. If there is a thread that speaks directly to my inquiry then please direct me there and I apologize for wasting time and causing others effort. It's frustrating to see vendor after vendor pop up without any kind of tradeable track record... I think it's time to crack down and sift through to get to what is real. All this stuff reminds me of the old gold rush stories....You're gonna get rich by finding gold but the real money was made by those selling the tools and supplies to those trying to find the gold. Sorry that this probably comes off as offensive and some vendors may get defensive but let's see some real results from the people peddling the product as the trades unfold.

Volt

i agree with you Volt-would be interested in any comments

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  #55 (permalink)
 Oriole 
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I'm a newbie and am looking to learn. I appreciate all the education and trading room suggestions.

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  #56 (permalink)
 TraderDoc007 
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MBox wave trading is a really good set of tools for assessing order flow in real time.

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  #57 (permalink)
 lebarg 
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Check out BookMap

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  #58 (permalink)
 Oriole 
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Bookmap only does stocks and no futures, correct?

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 lebarg 
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It's the other way around....mostly futures.

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  #60 (permalink)
 ahecker 
rochester new york usa
 
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Anthony Drager is the real deal. Former prop trader and can teach you why the market does what it does.
Check out edgetradinggroup.com

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  #61 (permalink)
 Rrrracer 
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Sorry, you can't just pay someone money and have them teach you how to trade successfully. It's not possible for a variety of reasons. Yes, there are people who can help you along the way, but ultimately ya gotta put in the work and figure it out for yourself.

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SunTrader
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phantomtrader View Post
They are simply filled at separate times. That's the way their accounting and reporting works. Not up to me.

Ok fine but your pic shows same not separate times, therefore my question. No matter.

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  #63 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
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SunTrader View Post
Ok fine but your pic shows same not separate times, therefore my question. No matter.

That's how they fill on the Tradovate platform. I just took a screenshot of today's trades, deleting the ID numbers, etc.
Why they do it that way -well you have to ask them. It goes to the ID number of the trade I think. They don't all fill at once even though they are executed at the same time.

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  #64 (permalink)
Trader825
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Hi,
Jigsaw user here. Hail to Peter Davies. As what he's done has helped revolutionize the way average retail traders make a living. I know that's exactly what it's done for me.

I truly believe anyone who DOESN'T trade via Order Flow should first read Technical Analysis and The Active Trader. Why? It will add excellent context as to why any real trader will at the very least ditch their indicators (save for Cumulative Delta) and consider adding Order Flow to their existing strategy as it's truly the only way to see what's really going on between buyers and sellers.

Now let's talk about that for a second.

So many traders believe that price moves up or down because there's MORE buyers or MORE sellers. This is a physical impossibility. For every ONE buyer, you must have ONE seller. Price moves via whoever is Buying or Selling more aggressively.
So, with Order Flow, I'm able to see things that help me better understand what big money (aka the Volume Movers) are up to. If I'm able to see that I'm able to better position myself to catch a ride on one or more of their moves.

Now I'm going to go out on a limb here, and post up my trade stats for you all to see. It will simply be for the months of January and February (so far). And I'll be honest, too....it ain't the best, but it's also not the worst. But EVERY trade placed was done so and managed via Order Flow with VOLUME charts and a few market internals as an additional reference. Also keep in mind I'm only trading part-time as I also work a full-time day job. Yep, busy life. So the profit shown will only be for anywhere between 5 to 10 days per month.

Another thing to keep in mind pertaining to my Trade Stats.

As a Jigsaw user I have access to Journalytix, an auto-trade journaling site. Look up it's own thread to learn more. The reason I'm bringing this up is because the trades you'll see are all from my LIVE account. Once uploaded to Journalytix it's there permanently. And that's the point, to hold the trader accountable to their own performance.

So rest assured, these are indeed REAL trades





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  #65 (permalink)
 johnvn 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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I have been in a number of trade rooms down the years and I must say that I have NEVER really got my moneys worth. For the last few months I have been in the "Trading Research Group" run by Jeff Mayem (AKA Doc) and Lee Harris from Emoji fame.

This has really been a breath of fresh air. Don't join if you are wanting to have someone call out trades but if you want education I can't recommend a better place to learn. Jeff does sessions where he trades live with a real account and both him and Lee do weekly training sessions.

Personally I have learnt more in the last 6 or so months than I have learnt in the past 15 years of trading. These are two non-nonsense guys with a combined 70+ years of trading experience who will not hesitate to call you out when you talk nonsense and in my opinion will change your trading career. (If you let them )

https://www.tradingresearchgroup.com/

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  #66 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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chancee View Post
Easy, you just have to keep trying for like 5 to 10 years and youíll become advanced too. Wonít make any money but youíll be advanced.

Post #39

LOL.
Spending 5 to 10 years trying to learn to drive but not being able to pass the driving test doesn't make somebody an advanced driver.
But for some reason with trading lots of people who say they have advanced trading experience aren't actually consistently profitable.
Spending years trying lots of different things but ultimately failing to succeed doesn't mean you "become advanced", yet they still insist on choosing "advanced" from the drop down menu. Delusional at best.

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  #67 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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Oriole View Post
Bookmap only does stocks and no futures, correct?

It works with both futures and stocks.
There was a good webinar about it on this forum at the end of last year by a Bookmap client using it for both.

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  #68 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
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SunTrader View Post
Ok fine but your pic shows same not separate times, therefore my question. No matter.


I forgot to mention that the screenshot is of a REPORT, not the brokerage statement. The report is something you can download from the Tradovate platform at any time to get your up to date trade information. It downloads as a CSV.

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  #69 (permalink)
Artfldgr
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Rrrracer View Post
Sorry, you can't just pay someone money and have them teach you how to trade successfully. It's not possible for a variety of reasons. Yes, there are people who can help you along the way, but ultimately ya gotta put in the work and figure it out for yourself.

Technically Karen Bruton did...
however, after she did earn, she played a bit loose with the bookeeping..
so after earning over 50,000,000 they sec went after her.


Quoting 
Karen the Supertrader has tried to keep a low profile over the last several years. Hope Advisors settled with the SEC for $1.5 million to avoid the fraud charges. Regulators also blocked Bruton and her colleague Dawn Roberts from accessing $7 million in Hope Advisorsí account.

As part of the judgment, Bruton is temporarily forbidden from working as an accountant or giving advice to investors.

Bruton turned 70 in 2019, so she may not mind the forced retirement. She had to pay a considerable amount of money to the SEC, but she may well have plenty of cash to enjoy the next couple of decades.

Technically she DID pay 20k to learn to trade
she DID earn the money trading and building up a group
etc..

she DID get in some trouble.. but details do not reveal a total scam
what they reveal is a person who got more greedy after winning..

the larger point though is that she learned to trade by paying money
and your point was one cant do that

however... in truth... the paying doesnt really teach you to trade, it gives you all the information you lack to ramp you up... its what you do with that information that counts... and even she admits that she took several years of putzing around with her own account before she hit on the thing she would earn with... did she get lucky? yes... she was one of those that could have blown her account but didnt... is what she did advisable? no, as most who do it will blow up, and only a few will not...

kind of same with the day trading teachers..
they rely on the idea that a few percentage people they 'teach' will have the right personality and focus
but they do NOT notice the majority that fall to the side as they constantly troll for new fish...

bottom line (i believe) is that whether you take a course, or focus yourself hard and work it
its the person themselves that ultimately makes the outcome...
I work in a degree field with no degrees... (and may be forced to retire by diversity and lack of being the right sex)
but i constanly apply myself to education, and am a rare find being an autodidactic person...

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Trader825
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So here's my trades for the Cash Session so far.

Again, ALL trades are executed and managed via Order Flow and are LIVE. No sim trading here.

So, is there really something to Order Flow, and trading via the DOM (Depth of Market)?

YES THERE IS!

And if you can harness that knowledge and turn it into an edge you can use it to churn some profit.

I'll post a video soon of the first few trades of today's session so you can see how exactly I'm using the Order Book to do so.


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  #71 (permalink)
 Nukedel24 
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Volt,

Go to TradePro Academy They will set you up with Sierra charts, with there own Chartbooks. They are a good bunch of guys.
They actually Chart Order Flow in a graphical setup.

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  #72 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Trader825 View Post
So here's my trades for the Cash Session so far.

Again, ALL trades are executed and managed via Order Flow and are LIVE. No sim trading here.

So, is there really something to Order Flow, and trading via the DOM (Depth of Market)?

YES THERE IS!

And if you can harness that knowledge and turn it into an edge you can use it to churn some profit.

I'll post a video soon of the first few trades of today's session so you can see how exactly I'm using the Order Book to do so.

Attachment 287053

Hi @Trader825,

It's great that you're trading, and I hope you do well, but this thread is not for your personal trading. You can open a trade journal in the Trading Journals section, and others would probably be interested.

This thread is for reviews of ES orderflow chat rooms, or for the general subject of order flow trading. If you have a post that is relevant to the topic, other than your own trades, feel free to post it. I understand that you use order flow, and that you want to show that it works for you. Making this point is perfectly fine.

But posting your detailed trading results is not the purpose of the thread. You can do that in a thread you start for your trading, if you like. This is just not the thread for it.

Thanks.

Bob.

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  #73 (permalink)
Trader825
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I'm not here Bob to tout my own personal trading results. What I've posted thus far is to confirm the fact that Order Flow does indeed give one an edge to be successful in their trading.

The pics are merely for proof. After all, isn't that the whole reason of this post? Volt wanted concrete evidence as to whether or not trading via Order Flow is truly profitable.

I've only provided proof that it is.

Okay Bob, you understand now?

So my posts are absolutely relevant to this thread.

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  #74 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
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Trader825 View Post
I'm not here Bob to tout my own personal trading results. What I've posted thus far is to confirm the fact that Order Flow does indeed give one an edge to be successful in their trading.

The pics are merely for proof. After all, isn't that the whole reason of this post? Volt wanted concrete evidence as to whether or not trading via Order Flow is truly profitable.

I've only provided proof that it is.

Okay Bob, you understand now?

So my posts are absolutely relevant to this thread.

I agree with you. People are always asking for "proof" - what is proof? Real trades.

I hope Bob reconsiders his stance on this thread.

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  #75 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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The thread should not include a journal of trades.

No matter how many trades you post, people will ask for more. Quickly turning this thread into a hodgepodge instead of a focused topic.

Instead, start a journal thread and then make one single post linking that thread to this one.

Your trades are welcome, just in a journal.

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  #76 (permalink)
Trader825
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Volt View Post
I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs.

From the thread starter himself. I've only done just that. Results and dollar signs.

So, with that said I will continue to post those results accordingly.

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  #77 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Surely you don't think a day, week, or month of trades is enough to say the method works consistently. I'm not saying it isn't a good method just that a few trades doesn't demonstrate anything. You can make a string of random trades to prove that.
Trader825 View Post
From the thread starter himself. I've only done just that. Results and dollar signs.

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  #78 (permalink)
Trader825
Denver, CO
 
 
Posts: 16 since May 2017
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A FEW TRADES!?!

Why don't you re-examine those screenshots again there Mike. Cause there's a lot more than a "few" trades.

God forbid someone posts REAL results....

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  #79 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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Big Mike View Post
Surely you don't think a day, week, or month of trades is enough to say the method works consistently. I'm not saying it isn't a good method just that a few trades doesn't demonstrate anything. You can make a string of random trades to prove that.

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  #80 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
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Big Mike View Post
Surely you don't think a day, week, or month of trades is enough to say the method works consistently. I'm not saying it isn't a good method just that a few trades doesn't demonstrate anything. You can make a string of random trades to prove that.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

Perhaps a solution would be to have a thread devoted just to Order Flow, particularly using Jigsaw, as that's the primary tool that most flow traders use.
I can't post to a journal every day. I'm a theoretical physicist when I'm not doing this and that takes time too.
However, I do make videos occasionally of particularly interesting days, especially losing days.
Maybe a thread just about order flow would solve the problem of demonstrating how and why it works.

Jigsaw is one of your sponsors as well. I don't think Peter would object to a thread about their platform.

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  #81 (permalink)
Artfldgr
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phantomtrader View Post
Perhaps a solution would be to have a thread devoted just to Order Flow, particularly using Jigsaw, as that's the primary tool that most flow traders use.
I can't post to a journal every day. I'm a theoretical physicist when I'm not doing this and that takes time too.
However, I do make videos occasionally of particularly interesting days, especially losing days.
Maybe a thread just about order flow would solve the problem of demonstrating how and why it works.

Jigsaw is one of your sponsors as well. I don't think Peter would object to a thread about their platform.

So start a thread..

From what i can see.. order flow is what TOS has as Active Trader
a bit RARER to know is that TOS has an API that lets you create programs to trade..
however its quite complicated for people who are not developers, and so its not well advertised.

on another note... I am looking into what real time data is available to anyone with a TOS account...
i will start another thread on the idea of creating an active tools from excel of sorts for a (very tiny) subscription
why?

i been looking around for this and there is nothing really good for the average joe to do this stuff right
there are tons of templates... and even more formulas and so on... but almost nada for anything reasonable

TD offers all kinds of tools and hidden stuff..
given this thread... i will keep an eye out on anything ORDER FLOW related (ie. active trader) data...
but i wouldn't get hopes up...


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  #82 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Artfldgr View Post
on another note... I am looking into what real time data is available to anyone with a TOS account...
i will start another thread on the idea of creating an active tools from excel of sorts for a (very tiny) subscription

@Artfldgr, you may, of course, create any tool you wish, and charge whatever you wish for it.

But if you post anything on futures.io about any tool or product or service that you charge a fee for, you will be running afoul of our policy against vendor self-promotion, and your post will be deleted and you will be banned.

If you offer something that is totally free, and that is not connected in some way -- for example, through a link to an external website -- to some paid product or service, that is fine.

There are site sponsors, who operate under their own set of rules regarding what they can do, and they are carefully selected. Most who request to be sponsors are not accepted.

Otherwise, we aim to have an environment that is free from commercial offers.

I understand that you are new to the site and probably were unaware of this, and I'm not coming down hard on you. I just want it to be clear from the outset, since you mentioned a subscription fee, that futures.io is not the place for it.

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  #83 (permalink)
Artfldgr
New York + New York / USA
 
 
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bobwest View Post
@Artfldgr, you may, of course, create any tool you wish, and charge whatever you wish for it.

But if you post anything on futures.io about any tool or product or service that you charge a fee for, you will be running afoul of our policy against vendor self-promotion, and your post will be deleted and you will be banned.

If you offer something that is totally free, and that is not connected in some way -- for example, through a link to an external website -- to some paid product or service, that is fine.

There are site sponsors, who operate under their own set of rules regarding what they can do, and they are carefully selected. Most who request to be sponsors are not accepted.

Otherwise, we aim to have an environment that is free from commercial offers.

I understand that you are new to the site and probably were unaware of this, and I'm not coming down hard on you. I just want it to be clear from the outset, since you mentioned a subscription fee, that futures.io is not the place for it.

Bob.

It was only a thought about what i was thinking of doing..
not an advert for anything real, made, or actually done..

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  #84 (permalink)
 loantelligence 
Syracuse, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Trading: NQ
 
Posts: 133 since Jan 2011
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Trader825 I would be interested in your results and your technique....

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  #85 (permalink)
Artfldgr
New York + New York / USA
 
 
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loantelligence View Post
Trader825 I would be interested in your results and your technique....

This was my first cut... not an excel VBA programmer..
but i am taking a shot at building a tool for myself at least.. (no sale, no promotion!!! wont step on that third rail!!)



Not bad for a first cut...

It requires you have a TOS account and open the software..

even better, i figured out how to get a developer account, and can make web pages that can use rest api to get lots of even better information... which includes minute data, history data, etc... it even allows one to make programatic orders... but i am staying away from that rail too.. ha ha.

what i need is to figure out what information would make sense on other sheets..
i figure i would start with a drop down of the tickers from the first sheet
and then go from there...

anyway..
playing around as i wait for my bull put spreads to expire...

link to my journal so as not to derail the conversation here.

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  #86 (permalink)
 Rrrracer 
Webinar Host
Liquidity Hunting Nomad
Roamin' the countryside
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Artfldgr View Post
the larger point though is that she learned to trade by paying money
and your point was one cant do that

however... in truth... the paying doesnt really teach you to trade, it gives you all the information you lack to ramp you up... its what you do with that information that counts... and even she admits that she took several years of putzing around with her own account before she hit on the thing she would earn with...

Seems to me that we are in agreement

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  #87 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
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phantomtrader View Post
I forgot to mention that the screenshot is of a REPORT, not the brokerage statement. The report is something you can download from the Tradovate platform at any time to get your up to date trade information. It downloads as a CSV.

Just my further and last 2 cents on the matter, but I would find that useless without the actual transaction times. I track stats such as enter/exit times but even if I didn't I would still need to know did I put a trade on near the open, later in the morning, after lunch or at the close? And finally I consider time more important than price (definitely in the minority here) in market analysis. Oh well.

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  #88 (permalink)
 Volt 
Whitehall, NY
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TOS, Market Delta
Broker: Infinity, TOS, IB
Trading: es
 
Posts: 261 since Aug 2012
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This is my third post on this thread so I'm not sure where you are coming up with a " few follow ups" ? Makes no sense to me and you've gone on and didn't answer my question...so just keep that magical, mystical chat room to your self. It's seems like it may be you that has the attitude problem with your reply. Very strange and out of line.
Meklon View Post
Based on your initial post and few follow ups I can say that you are just another newbie who expects for the Order Flow to be a Holly Grail that will give you a green or red light when to buy and when to sell. It will not. Itís a tool that can help you to interpret market action and learning how to use it and understand it is entirely your responsibility.

My initial thought was to point you to one of the trading room that I know generates results and holds everyone (including its moderator) accountable for the trades, but after reading your outbursts I believe you will cause a problem there rather than actually learn something.


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  #89 (permalink)
 Volt 
Whitehall, NY
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TOS, Market Delta
Broker: Infinity, TOS, IB
Trading: es
 
Posts: 261 since Aug 2012
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Thank you to all who contributed constructively. I will check into the links and vendors mentioned but there seem to be very few replies that address my initial question specifically. I can appreciate the discussion though and thanks for the contributions. I really just wanted to know if there was someone marketing an ES chat room , trading with order flow who could show real profits. We seem to have gotten way off course. I suggest you go back and read the first post if you have any doubts. It's always interesting how threads evolve. Thanks !

Volt

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  #90 (permalink)
 joe s 
sacramento ca us
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader,Trade Station
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I have seen a lot of people in trade rooms and chat rooms asking the vendor if they can change this or that on the system they are looking at that's the problem they cant follow the rules of the system. they probably don't even have the discipline to follow their own rules and have no money management. then they want to blame the vendors system because they cant make money and claim all vendor's are bad true most are but their are a lot of good ones that have some good information.I have learned a lot over the years and used some of the info from these traders. I think if you look into the mirror you will see the problem once you fix that first then you can learn and become a profitable trader

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  #91 (permalink)
 Meklon 
New York, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
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Volt View Post
This is my third post on this thread so I'm not sure where you are coming up with a " few follow ups" ? Makes no sense to me and you've gone on and didn't answer my question...so just keep that magical, mystical chat room to your self. It's seems like it may be you that has the attitude problem with your reply. Very strange and out of line.

There you go...another outburst...as expected. All that while people with experience trying (calmly and patiently) to open your blinded vision and explain to you that your entire concept of approaching this task (learning to trade) is WRONG.

No trading room or a mentor will help you. Keep demanding what you do and what don't want. Good luck.

Mek.

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  #92 (permalink)
 Meklon 
New York, USA
 
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joe s View Post
I have seen a lot of people in trade rooms and chat rooms asking the vendor if they can change this or that on the system they are looking at that's the problem they cant follow the rules of the system. they probably don't even have the discipline to follow their own rules and have no money management. then they want to blame the vendors system because they cant make money and claim all vendor's are bad true most are but their are a lot of good ones that have some good information.I have learned a lot over the years and used some of the info from these traders. I think if you look into the mirror you will see the problem once you fix that first then you can learn and become a profitable trader

SPOT ON Joe!

But be carefull...this guy is really sensitive to constructive criticism...LOL

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  #93 (permalink)
 bobwest 
Site Moderator
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  #94 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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SunTrader View Post
Just my further and last 2 cents on the matter, but I would find that useless without the actual transaction times. I track stats such as enter/exit times but even if I didn't I would still need to know did I put a trade on near the open, later in the morning, after lunch or at the close? And finally I consider time more important than price (definitely in the minority here) in market analysis. Oh well.

I don't know what you're not seeing but the time stamps are clearly listed on the spreadsheet - that's PST time.

You may have never traded a live account. But when you do, your report and your brokerage statement will clearly list time stamps with an ID number. I removed the ID numbers from the spreadsheet but the time stamps are clearly there.

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  #95 (permalink)
 Vogie 
Chicago, IL USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Stage 5, Jigsaw
Trading: ES
 
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I have been using the Jigsaw DOM and reconstructed tape for awhile now. Peter has a great deal of valuable training videos that gave me a clear way to understand what I was looking at and how to use it. I also did the NO BS Trading training and found that helpful as well but it is on treasuries not the ES. Hope that helps.

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  #96 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
Experience: None
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Broker: AMP+CQG
Trading: ES, HSI, Nikkei
 
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Everyone,

1) Do an honest self-appraisal here. Are you being argumentative, passive-aggressive, or disrespectful in your tone? Take an opportunity to grow and rise above the nonsense being thrown around on this thread. Would you behave that way on a trading floor, in person, among other people?

2) You can NOT verify someone else's trading track record. It's very simple: open two accounts, trade the opposite position in each one every day, show the statement that was profitable for the day, redacting the account number. Easy. End of story. If I wanted to hide something from my wife, I could. You think someone you don't even know can't hide something from you? Wake up. When I was a newb on this site back in 2011, I asked @Big Mike something similar about a video .. "is it real?" I asked. He responded: "I don't have time for this, and it doesn't matter" ... boy, was he right, and boy, was I chasing my tail!

3) Which leads us to ... why do you even care? Stop worrying about other people's trading, what they do, their track record, and all of the other stupid shit that has been throw around out here. Start thinking for yourself. Borrow ideas, formulate your own view of the market, and learn to take calculated risk. That's all there is to it. Don't look up 5 years from now and find that you're still trying to decipher what someone else does.

4) There are a few people who I look to for ideas which helps me to improve my trading. I don't trust them with my life, I wouldn't turn over the creds to my trading account to them, and I wouldn't give them the keys to my house. But I trust myself enough to filter out good ideas and give things a try. Could any of these people go to jail tomorrow for fraud? Sure. Would I care? Nope. I don't lean on them, give them god-like status, or become disciples who parrot their language and try to be carbon copy clones. I suggest you find people like this who have what you consider to be viable ideas, and explore them yourself.

Appendix 1) There seems to be some myth that "institutional money" always wins. According to this article, hedge funds underperformed the market by about 300% during 2019, with funds closing all over the place. Einhorn is probably still short TSLA and NFLX and he's down 7% in one month! If I see one more post about "institutional money" when the poster clearly has zero clues, I'll ... well, not be surprised.

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  #97 (permalink)
 mayazoro 
tucson
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Charts , Sceeto andTOS
Broker: AMP-Rithmic
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 24 since Feb 2010
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Orderflow ES chat rooms
I'm not sure where to post this but there is so much info on here about order flow but I have yet to find any chat rooms that are analyzing it in real time with much success. Most all speak in generalities or after the fact screen shots. So is there ANYONE who markets education ( Especially for the ES) that can actually trade with orderflow and shows you real time results? I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs. If there is a thread that speaks directly to my inquiry then please direct me there and I apologize for wasting time and causing others effort. It's frustrating to see vendor after vendor pop up without any kind of tradeable track record... I think it's time to crack down and sift through to get to what is real. All this stuff reminds me of the old gold rush stories....You're gonna get rich by finding gold but the real money was made by those selling the tools and supplies to those trying to find the gold. Sorry that this probably comes off as offensive and some vendors may get defensive but let's see some real results from the people peddling the product as the trades unfold.

Volt

Volt no one will show you his trading account that why they are teaching, I am not saying that his or her teaching are not good, it can be that they know how to analyse the market , find a good set ups and teach you good order flow but they can not make money trading, so they go where the easy money is, where a lot of demand is, since 98 percent loose money, that a lot of clients, that a very attractive market with infinity supply

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  #98 (permalink)
 Volt 
Whitehall, NY
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TOS, Market Delta
Broker: Infinity, TOS, IB
Trading: es
 
Posts: 261 since Aug 2012
Thanks: 123 given, 385 received

Very well said Josh and let me add the old saying " Treat others as you would like to be treated". The world and forum discussions would be a much better place. Unfortunately there will always be those that try to push peoples buttons but we have great moderators here to keep those kinds of people in line!



josh View Post
Everyone,

1) Do an honest self-appraisal here. Are you being argumentative, passive-aggressive, or disrespectful in your tone? Take an opportunity to grow and rise above the nonsense being thrown around on this thread. Would you behave that way on a trading floor, in person, among other people?


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  #99 (permalink)
 mayazoro 
tucson
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Charts , Sceeto andTOS
Broker: AMP-Rithmic
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 24 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 34 received

Orderflow ES chat rooms
I'm not sure where to post this but there is so much info on here about order flow but I have yet to find any chat rooms that are analyzing it in real time with much success. Most all speak in generalities or after the fact screen shots. So is there ANYONE who markets education ( Especially for the ES) that can actually trade with orderflow and shows you real time results? I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs. If there is a thread that speaks directly to my inquiry then please direct me there and I apologize for wasting time and causing others effort. It's frustrating to see vendor after vendor pop up without any kind of tradeable track record... I think it's time to crack down and sift through to get to what is real. All this stuff reminds me of the old gold rush stories....You're gonna get rich by finding gold but the real money was made by those selling the tools and supplies to those trying to find the gold. Sorry that this probably comes off as offensive and some vendors may get defensive but let's see some real results from the people peddling the product as the trades unfold.

Volt

Actually Volt your post is one of the best post in this forum , right to the center of the vortex

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  #100 (permalink)
 Volt 
Whitehall, NY
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TOS, Market Delta
Broker: Infinity, TOS, IB
Trading: es
 
Posts: 261 since Aug 2012
Thanks: 123 given, 385 received

Thanks! I was merely trying to find out if any rooms existed. Somehow this got taken off track that I was looking for training.This isn't the case. So far the bottom line seems to be that NONE actually exist for the ES but I will follow through and contact the suggestions made on this thread. I went back and read my first post and I can understand how it might possibly be misconstrued. It certainly has brought out some very interesting and diverse responses. If I find one that actually does what I asked in post one then I will report back to the forum. Till then I will assume, like I have for years that many who are marketing order flow cannot or will not prove they are actually trading. That's fine as long as they don't imply they actually are trading real money. I realize order flow is one of many tools to use in trading. The key is to find those tools/setups that suit your personality and comfort zone but that is a subject that we are lucky enough to have plenty of threads about on Futures I/O.




mayazoro View Post
Orderflow ES chat rooms
I'm not sure where to post this but there is so much info on here about order flow but I have yet to find any chat rooms that are analyzing it in real time with much success. Most all speak in generalities or after the fact screen shots. So is there ANYONE who markets education ( Especially for the ES) that can actually trade with orderflow and shows you real time results? I'm not interested in excuses or stories about why this can't be done or it's an art form or blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for someone who actually gets results. Pretty dots and imbalances are cool to see but I'd rather see results and dollar signs. If there is a thread that speaks directly to my inquiry then please direct me there and I apologize for wasting time and causing others effort. It's frustrating to see vendor after vendor pop up without any kind of tradeable track record... I think it's time to crack down and sift through to get to what is real. All this stuff reminds me of the old gold rush stories....You're gonna get rich by finding gold but the real money was made by those selling the tools and supplies to those trying to find the gold. Sorry that this probably comes off as offensive and some vendors may get defensive but let's see some real results from the people peddling the product as the trades unfold.

Volt

Volt no one will show you his trading account that why they are teaching, I am not saying that his or her teaching are not good, it can be that they know how to analyse the market , find a good set ups and teach you good order flow but they can not make money trading, so they go where the easy money is, where a lot of demand is, since 98 percent loose money, that a lot of clients, that a very attractive market with infinity supply


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