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Orderflow ES chat rooms

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  #21 (permalink)
Minneapolis
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Optimus Futures, CQG
Trading: E-mini ES,
 
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Posts: 27 since May 2019
Thanks: 287 given, 45 received

John Grady from NoBSDayTrading puts on a webinar a couple times a year for those who have gone through his course. He trades smaller size than usual, but you canít really follow Order Flow trading and enter and exit like other strategies. Itís like watching a doctor do an autopsy in real-time and trying to mimic them at the same time.

Peter Davies from Jigsaw is also a solid choice for learning Order Flow.

Screen time and a proper introduction is more important than following someoneís chat IMHO.

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  #22 (permalink)
Henderson, NV
 
Experience: Beginner
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All replies that i have seen before and still not answering the question of any evidence indicating profits/loss.


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  #23 (permalink)
new york
 
Experience: None
Platform: SierraChart
 
Posts: 63 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 1 given, 32 received


No point wasting time as there is no one out there - whether its orderflow or any other method of trading.
There is no way anyone who is trading and making money is sitting around running a live chat room
I'm sure you could find somebody who trades and makes some money but they need to supplement their trading income with seminars/courses, as whatever it is thats lacking in their trading (method/psychological blocks etc) they havent truly broken through yet.

its no different in trading than in any other field. you could find a professional athlete (golf/tennis etc) who could make some money from the sport but need to work as coaches at local clubs to make a living. as an amateur, you can learn from these pros, but the net result most likely will still be a better amateur and not much more than that. There is zero chance Tiger Woods or Roger Federer (or even a top 100 athlete) is sitting around offering lessons ....

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  #24 (permalink)
conyers ga usa
 
 
Posts: 17 since Nov 2016
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you think your request was bad im probably going to get shot for my reply to you...you are 100% accurate in your "gold rush" analogy. That's what trading is as a matter of fact. Short term trading aka "day trading" that is. There is dang good reason almost all day traders loose all their money. The answer to your question is that there are no traders that will show you live trading. Especially order flow trading. Because what moves markets is unfilled institutional orders. The level 2 data you are looking at contains no institutional orders. Its all 100% retail orders. Yours and mine. There are laws, rules and regulations that prevent the public from seeing institutional orders. So what I am saying is that you and I and anyone else in the world that wants to can see all the retail orders you care to look at. So can the institutional traders. But not the other way round. There is no public access to institutional order flow. In fact most if now all retail brokers do not even have access to it. Hell they cant even fill your orders. They sell your orders to a third party to actually get your orders filled. Proof? Nope. Just deduction. I too use to trade ES and I also have been a follower of "supply demand" based trading. So there was always three points. For every buyer there was a seller and vice verse. Second for price to go higher there has to be more buyers than sellers...you see the conflict already right? Third for price to go down there had to be more sellers than buyers...again the conflict. So as an example on a big down day the conflict became blatantly obvious. On a big down day in the ES looking at the DOM it was painfully obvious that there would be as much as 10X the BUYERS than there would be sellers ON A BIG BIG DOWN DAY. How the hell can this be? The answer is this and it resolves the conflict. There is in fact a buyer for ever seller AND there are also more sellers than buyers pushing price down. Let me explain. As I said and anyone can attest on a big down day in the ES there are in fact way more buyers on the DOM than sellers but price went down anyway. This is because the institutional side is invisible to us as retail traders. There were in fact more institutional sellers - which pushed price down. Also for every one of those institutional sell orders there was in fact a buy order as well. Trouble is they were retail buy orders. Hence on the DOM on a huge down day on the ES it is not uncommon to see way way more buyers than sellers. Because the order flow we are permitted to see is all totally 100% retail orders and zero institutional. That's not so say you still cant win. Because some traders do. But the odds of you winning consistently day trading are very slim. Just because of the invisible factor.

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  #25 (permalink)
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 118 since Nov 2018
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GoldLinx View Post
The difficulty in "teaching" orderflow is similar to trying to write a book about how to play football.......................

Honestly man, orderflow is a tough one and if you want to learn it you will probably need to be content with piecing together information from several sources and learning based on your own experiences. But hey, that's actually trading.

Well put. It takes a lot of work on the trader's part. Low success rate in this (or any other profession) can be attributed mainly to lack of preparation and work and time dedicated on the individual's part. Not the guru or the book or the course.

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  #26 (permalink)
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
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madmaxtrw View Post
All replies that i have seen before and still not answering the question of any evidence indicating profits/loss.


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These are order flow trades today off the Jigsaw platform. I also use my own setup on a chart, but it's primarily order flow.
And yes, it can be done.

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  #27 (permalink)
New York + New York / USA
 
 
Posts: 76 since Jan 2020
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GoldLinx View Post
So how would you go about teaching a football player, how to build his intuition during the game and amidst a particular play?

The short version of your comment would be:
You cant learn to swim if you wont get wet...

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  #28 (permalink)
New York + New York / USA
 
 
Posts: 76 since Jan 2020
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JamesPowell View Post
you think your request was bad im probably going to get shot for my reply to you...you are 100% accurate in your "gold rush" analogy. That's what trading is as a matter of fact. Short term trading aka "day trading" that is. There is dang good reason almost all day traders loose all their money. The answer to your question is that there are no traders that will show you live trading. Especially order flow trading. Because what moves markets is unfilled institutional orders. The level 2 data you are looking at contains no institutional orders. Its all 100% retail orders. Yours and mine. There are laws, rules and regulations that prevent the public from seeing institutional orders. So what I am saying is that you and I and anyone else in the world that wants to can see all the retail orders you care to look at. So can the institutional traders. But not the other way round. There is no public access to institutional order flow. In fact most if now all retail brokers do not even have access to it. Hell they cant even fill your orders. They sell your orders to a third party to actually get your orders filled. Proof? Nope. Just deduction. I too use to trade ES and I also have been a follower of "supply demand" based trading. So there was always three points. For every buyer there was a seller and vice verse. Second for price to go higher there has to be more buyers than sellers...you see the conflict already right? Third for price to go down there had to be more sellers than buyers...again the conflict. So as an example on a big down day the conflict became blatantly obvious. On a big down day in the ES looking at the DOM it was painfully obvious that there would be as much as 10X the BUYERS than there would be sellers ON A BIG BIG DOWN DAY. How the hell can this be? The answer is this and it resolves the conflict. There is in fact a buyer for ever seller AND there are also more sellers than buyers pushing price down. Let me explain. As I said and anyone can attest on a big down day in the ES there are in fact way more buyers on the DOM than sellers but price went down anyway. This is because the institutional side is invisible to us as retail traders. There were in fact more institutional sellers - which pushed price down. Also for every one of those institutional sell orders there was in fact a buy order as well. Trouble is they were retail buy orders. Hence on the DOM on a huge down day on the ES it is not uncommon to see way way more buyers than sellers. Because the order flow we are permitted to see is all totally 100% retail orders and zero institutional. That's not so say you still cant win. Because some traders do. But the odds of you winning consistently day trading are very slim. Just because of the invisible factor.

It can be even worse than that as some institutional traders divide their requests among several smaller owned entities to do the leg work for them... As long as their reporting is right, that is what matters to them and their acquisitions or dumping...

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  #29 (permalink)
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
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Posts: 335 since May 2011
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Artfldgr View Post
It can be even worse than that as some institutional traders divide their requests among several smaller owned entities to do the leg work for them... As long as their reporting is right, that is what matters to them and their acquisitions or dumping...


What you both say may be true. I've observed "strange" behavior on the 30 yr which is inexplicable. There's always spoofing regardless what the CFTC says about oversight.

A work-around is to build a simple automated strategy that you can back test for decent outcome. Then use the Jigsaw platform to confirm the trades. I've done that with the simple indicator that I uploaded yesterday to the Elite download section.

You need to be a little creative in how you approach these problems. Think gaming, military strategy - if you know part of your enemy is hidden, try to beat them by jumping over them. You need some leverage to do this, but it is doable.

I think people give up on order flow because it looks like a mess on the DOM. But it's really the only tool in our toolkit that shows some of the live price action.

Take your tookkit and start pulling the parts together.

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  #30 (permalink)
Pahrump, NV
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: AMP
Trading: ES, NQ, CL
 
Posts: 45 since Aug 2016
Thanks: 3 given, 31 received



phantomtrader View Post
What you both say may be true. I've observed "strange" behavior on the 30 yr which is inexplicable. There's always spoofing regardless what the CFTC says about oversight.

A work-around is to build a simple automated strategy that you can back test for decent outcome. Then use the Jigsaw platform to confirm the trades. I've done that with the simple indicator that I uploaded yesterday to the Elite download section.

You need to be a little creative in how you approach these problems. Think gaming, military strategy - if you know part of your enemy is hidden, try to beat them by jumping over them. You need some leverage to do this, but it is doable.

I think people give up on order flow because it looks like a mess on the DOM. But it's really the only tool in our toolkit that shows some of the live price action.

Take your tookkit and start pulling the parts together.

Roger that on the spoofing! I see it every day.

In order to properly interpret order flow takes knowledge of what absorption and exhaustion looks like on the DOM, too. You have to be able to interpret what you're seeing on the DOM, both in terms of resting orders and filled orders, what buyers and sellers are doing, both at each price level and as price action moves up and down. You also have to pay close attention to volume - are the buyers or sellers losing interest as price goes up or down? Or are they all piling in at a particular point? Are those resting orders likely to be real, or are they spoofed orders? Context is very important.

The best I've seen is a guy named Ray over at compassfx. He's based in London and is a quant and bank trader. He's forgotten more than what I've learned about trading, for sure. He doesn't sit around and put on a trade and "hope it works out" - this guy KNOWS. Check him out at https://compassfx.com/master-trading-training/

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