I know some of you are big on EOT or are even members there. I just want to take a second to introduce you to Traders International.
I have been a full time day traders since losing my job as a trade specialist at BNY mellon last april. I have been a member of TI since fall of last year and recently became an affiliate.
Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you how much money I made and shoot a bunch of keyword marketing terms at you, I just want you guys to check it out real quick. their system is fantastic and you can get a live free trading seminar. sorry if this comes across as a cheap marketing ploy, but they really are great traders and the community is fantastic. Thanks guys
The following user says Thank You to ntsst3 for this post:
Hi folks,
A few words about "buying" others systems. Do they offer you value for money? What do you actually get for your $$$$ (4 dollar signs used deliberately)? Are there any recurrent costs i.e. monthly fees, subscriptions etc and what do you get for these costs? Do they use a specific broker and what are the quoted commissions? Do you have to use a defined trading DOM or charting package? Are there proprietary indicators and how are they distributed? How do they calculate their rate of return? Do they conveniently forget about commissions in their sales pitch? I'm sure there are lots of other questions that should be asked. Then again some people will be happy to spend the money and I'm OK with that too.
Seems to me there are lots of "systems" available for purchase and the web sites generally have pictures of big yachts moored near tropical islands... (sigh)...
Meggs
The following user says Thank You to Meggs for this post:
geez wow ! i read that thread and feel pretty bad for that guy. I wouldn't go as far as to say they are scam artists. I had a different experience but then again I don't trade their indicators only.
As for the signal room, the moderator Dale does more than just give calls, he helps you build a trading plan and definitely grills you when you don't stick to it. All room members are required to keep track of their trades and email him weekly results.
Also, They do run the trading dome live in the room. The trail is free so you can give it a shot if you want. Trading is definitely not cut and dry so to think that you will get exact entry and exits that work consistently in any room is a little naive. The moderators have 1,000's of hours of screen time and that's worth some dollars right there imo
I just wanted to share them because its something I use when I trade and I found it helpful. There is a free 90 minute live session so if you want to check it out it doesn't cost you a dime. Thanks for reading
I have been a TI member for about a year now and this has been the biggest regret. IMHO a lot of what is quoted in the link is correct. It cost a fortune to join. On top of this there is a monthly room fee. The main issues I have with TI are as follows:
1. Their indicators (MACD & DS) do not work - and do not work as promised
2. They teach you to read the market using the MACD & DS and then Dale trades off his own system! What is the point of paying the huge dollars when the pro trader trades off another system and signal set!
3. TI Promise big things, but do not deliver. They blame you (the trader) for making a loss!
4. They promise, advertise and market that you can make $500 -$1000 per day. Their pro room trader does not achieve this, nor has he over the past year!
5. They continue to trade divergent signals into very strong trends going the other way and continually lose.
6. They trade in SIM only. This is not putting their money where their mouth is. Sim is not the same as live.
7. They move stops away from their opening position and increase their losses
I can go on all day here............
I traded in the pro room and took all of Dale’s trades with live funds. After 2 months I quit TI as I had huge losses. The results reported on the website were quite different from the reality!
I would never recommend TI as IMO this system does not work. A new trader would be better off donating their funds to this forum, as they will receive far better indicators (Sharky's indicators, Big Mikes, Wizards etc). At least a new trader will have a better chance of surviving the markets with decent indicators.
There are many other trading organisations or groups which I would join before TI.
Ever since I have turned TI off, I have been consistently in profit. Surely this is proof enough that TI is "not what it's made out to be".
If you were a true TI member and affiliate, why would you trade using Wizards Holy grail system? Is it perhaps because the Holy Grail delivers a profit and TI doesn't?
Anyway, I'm really not having a go at you. I just do not believe that TI will solve anybody trading issues. If a person buys a good book and joins a forum like this, they will be $ 10k ahead.
The following 4 users say Thank You to Alan for this post:
What can I say Alan, Tuesday i took a call from the room and it was my only losing trade +4 -6 -6 for net of -8 . and you can see that on my blog. straight up. but it was also a similar entry i would have got with HG so...
Ti needs to step up the trade calls especially the signal room no doubt about it. I mean people read these blogs and google stuff before they buy it (especially if it costs a couple grand!). The bad publicity they have been getting is going to put them under. and its been killing the affiliate side of it
I wish there was a way for me to post the live calls but I would probably get in big trouble. I checked the results and I can't vouch for the other room, but signal room is about right +2 points or so a day.
personally Its been over a year since I signed up at Ti. before even Bear sterns collapsed. i can remember in the fall taking trade calls that ran for 15 or more points. But recently they have been crappy you are for right.
What i did learn from Ti was to have a trading plan, run it like a business because it is, and stick to a system. all things i could have learned here FREE, Yes. but blogs like this didn't really exist a year ago ! and besides I was an options trader using high probabilities to sell put spreads so I wouldn't have known about them.
HG is the chart i have been looking at recently, yes. and its on my blog because I am trying to help build this community. The reality is its us small guys VS the robots and I think we can win. but we need alot of well trained troops!
About my trading: honestly, I'm using a bunch of stuff when I trade. TICK reading, NYSE AD line with CI indicator, high Volume node histograms, and looking for divergences with the YM and NQ too. Oh and my Fav the VWAP! I have the TI signal room on and sometimes when the moderator calls a trade and I'm already in an opposite position, its hard to keep my mouth shut! But I do because the last thing you want when your in a trade is to have someone on Twitter or in a room telling you something different. Its hard enough to trade your plan without someone else making you second guess yourself. am i right?
my conclusion I trade MY plan, Ti is a part of it. I have posted probably over 100 winning trades with over 1200 tweets on twitter you can go back and see them all. twitter.com/infected1172. I'm with TI til October cause I paid upfront so if there are more questions about how the rooms are doing ill be glad to answer them honestly. And sorry about your experience Alan, no hard feelings. If it happened to me I would be posting the same thing.
I suspended my room subscription as I no longer trade in the room. One day if they ever get their act together and trade with the members best interests at heart and with decent indicators, then I might go back into the rooms, but until then I'm staying well away. They have potential to be a very good outfit, however they are just too arrogant and too sales focussed and ignore members ideas.
I'm in touch with about 20 ex TI members and they all complain about the same issues.
I can not agree more with Alan. I am an ex Traders International trader and that too has been my biggest regret. I joined them in July 2008 and after three months i gave up on them for the reasons that Alan listed.
I will post some screenshots of a simple divergence system I created. I must add that i dont trade this way and this is for mere educational purposes.
In this system I trade with 2 contracts with a 4-5t stop loss mostly based on the pivot, and profits are taken at 4ticks and 6-8 ticks. If PT 1 is filled I move to BE. Always try and remember to get a 1:1 RR ratio or better.
Today the system performed well with +10 +10 +10 + 4 +10 -8 +10 + 10 for 56 ticks. There are days that it does not do as well, but that goes for any system - consistency is the key.
The following 5 users say Thank You to Ausy Mick for this post:
Well I am another former TI member.
I agree totally with Alan and Ausy Mick. Never made money with them.
Got me interested in trading though.
Am even more sceptical after the Australian manager left with half the team to open a Forex group, claiming it to be the answer. (Maybe for their pocket)
This is after they had told us how great futures are and how it is your financial future.
Goodluck if you use them.
Ausy Mick, what settings are you using there? TI's on the Stoch and MACD?
What are you using now as your trading style?
Posted below are the requested indicators and template. To complete the template you need to draw horizontal lines at + and - 40 on the
Demark REi indicator panel or use the constant lines indicator.
I have also posted some screenshots of Thursday morning's price action,
and a simple picture explaining divergence. A couple of things to note about this system - it is very easy to see these trade setups in hindsight ( 20/20 :-) ), but you have to be focused like a razor blade, and quick as lightning in real time (practice in sim)....
Another thing to note is that the market may show perfect divergence which is glaringly obvious and still not choose to respond to it. Usually if it does that it may give a signal for trend continuation but this is not cast in stone. Also note that divergence could be against the trend, or with the trend. Knowing when it is safe to go couter trend will help you stay on the right side of the market, as a strong trend could easily destroy counter trend trades.
Confirm signals with a longer time frame if you have to. Listen to Big Mike and Sharky - they have a wealth of wisdom to offer.
Vast, coming back to your question you will see that the indicators are the stochastic overlay, the ergodic oscillator and the Demark Rei .I threw out the MACD. I do however use Macd in some of my other systems. The thing about Macd is that it has a tendency to hide the truth and you have to be able to discern when it is doing that.
At the moment I have way too many sytems that I created during the last year.
Fortunately most of them are profitable, but I am working on perfecting two systems and using only those two. The one will be for lower volume months( like summer) and the other one for regular trading when we have volume in the market.
Hope this help guys.
Take care and have a good weekend.
Ausy Mick
The following 11 users say Thank You to Ausy Mick for this post:
Fantastic work Mick. Like you said tho trading these divergences requires you to be super sharp. That may be a reason so many fail with TI. This system you posted here is pretty much identical to what they teach. I have tried numerous times to make something similar on ninja and I couldn't do it. Thanks for your post!
The stochastic setting is different than Traders International. I didnt want to reproduce or
copy their system - you will also notice that I threw out the Macd and replaced it with the ECO and Demark indicators. I just posted the system for educational purposes.
I will however look at those setting again. Thank you for those.
Take care and good trading
I'm not saying that the TI system or numbers are the answer. In fact, I do not believe that their system works. If you can adapt their method and system to suite your trading style then that's great. You will probably get a better result with your own adaptation.
stoch(5,5,2) %k=5, %d=5 %d slow=2 overlays on chart then erase slow line. He never change this parm, ever. The lower pannel is diff story, depend on his mood it could be price osc(3,14), I like (5,34) better. or MACD(8,3,5) notice they all fib numbers as he is obsessed with fib numbers, erase macd signal line too.
One thing I have learnt after many years of pointless 'grail searching' is that it really does'nt matter on the precise settings of an indicator, any indicator. People can get too fixated with the exact settings (I know I did). End of the day, the settings are such a tiny element of the profitability or not, of a trader, that it is immaterial.
The following user says Thank You to franky for this post:
Did anyone notice the OP gave one of those referral links without disclosing it? Makes me wonder if he's really trying to do us a favor or get a free month of access for himself.
Of course I gave a referral link, I said I was an affiliate in the original post. I don't need a free month of access or whatever I'm actually paid up in advance. You can sign up for a free trading webinar. Its free so it costs you nothing. Then you can make your decision. If you sign up then I get a commission, ya. If you don't no skin off my nose.
I have actually been on a temporary assignment as an analyst at a non profit here in Pittsburgh, so I haven't even been trading, which means I'm not using my paid up room access. I apologized up front for the marketing post so 'Don't hate' please.
Others have said this company is terrible and the other opinions at the other thread at mypivots were even worse and here you are promoting it with your referral links. This isn't good for your reputation.
You are correct. The thing that I find strange is that Nathan promotes TI, yet trades using futures.io (formerly BMT) indicators. If TI indicators and systems were so good they why would you need to look elsewhere? ( the reson is simply beacuse TI signals do not work!). The indicators developed on this site outclass TI's. These indicators make money and generally trade with the trend, as opposed to TI's divergence setups, which end up losing more often than not.
It's the same as if you had a Ford dealership, however you drove around in a GM car. Surely this sends the wrong message out. Have you no faith in your own products. How can you expect others to buy your products, if you don't drive (trade) them yourself!
Nathan, you should try listening to Dale call signals, while you have a second trading room on at the same time (on 2 separate PC's). If you did this, you would then realise how bad the TI calls really are, and how many good trading opportunities you have missed out on as you have been waiting for Dale to call a signal. If Dale is so good, then howcome he only trades in sim? and how come he exits trades with only a 2 or 3 tick profit?
Hmmmm, something to think about.
The following user says Thank You to Alan for this post:
i looked at ti a long time ago and believe it sucks. but i welcome a discussion about it and dont think its appropriate to squelch any such conversation. the op should have stated the link was a referral link up front but other than that i think a discussion is a good thing.
"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed." - Mark Twain
I have watched a couple of the demo and sales sessions with Afshin (CEO) giving his sales pitch and talking up TI and the great indicators and method they use. Most of the times I watched Afshin take or call a trade he seems to lose. I continually receive emails from TI telling me how great they are and how many points they made etc. The only problem is that their results which are posted are not the most accurate and do not show any huge profits at all. TI show brilliant results with "hindsight trading", however they never seem to achieve this in the real world with a live market. hhhhmmmmmmmmm wonder why?
TI is great at marketing and selling however does not deliver anything that they promise. As an ex member, I know.
I can see why people fall for the sales pitch, however once a person joins and becomes a member, all the smoke and mirrors vanish, and you are left with a huge hole in your pocket and a system that does not deliver.
I no longer watch any of their webinars as it's just a waste of time.
The following user says Thank You to Alan for this post:
Watched a couple of their seminars. Wasn't very impressed. Also it costs about 8k for their system. Been looking at ETOPRO stuff lately, also seem very interesting. But don't know what the outcome will be. They lease their indicators and also have a trading room. All for about 250 a month. Their indicators seems to be based on some kind of volume. they claim its calculated on big money small money. Any king of feedback on ETOPRO will be appreciated.
I feel strongly about TI, and it's not good. I was almost duped by them, and I am skeptic by nature. Several years ago Franz Shoar came to the Vegas expo with an audited statement by a big 5 accounting firm. My trader friend saw it himself. Then it comes out he is nothing but a sim warrior, it's ok to sim but not for 5k plus room dues, and Afshin is full of it. As mentioned I have talked to ppl. that have shelled it out and it is nothing but a modified Stochs and MACD. You will get reamed a new one on trend days. While we are at stay far away from Roger Felton he is the original TI moderator and he is just almost as bad. Except his Stochs and MACD are the real secret sauce, right.
Who could have forgotten Frank was 'average' in 1 'unit' at a time for his long or shot trade on ET, his 1 'unit' = 50 cars. Soon enough he was swigging 200 cars around in in his cool, calm and collected manner. Until some ETer pointed out there weren't 200 cars moving around on DOM. Busted! that was HILARIOUS.
I always wonder how the guy that does the "Trade of the Day" for TI NEVER has a losing trade. Does that Market Replay facility allow you to "record" the market movement and then annotate and do a voice over AFTER the fact later in the day as if you were trading it live? I guess this must be how he makes a thousand dollars consistently EVERY single trading session.
The TI sales and marketing team are really very creative. They keep sending out emails and videos of the "trades of the day" and the videos continually show that in just 2 trades with 10 contracts, they make at least $1000 per day.
This is great and wonderful............. however if you trade in the live TI trading rooms the moderators only trade one, two or at most 3 contacts and they never make the profits and dollars which they advertise in their tardes of the day videos.
Yet again, TI are very deceptive and do not show the truth. They advertise one thing and then trade another! What a surprise.
I wish I had access to all these posts BEFORE I paid $5,000 to Traders International. I stupidly believed what they were selling and I tried to follow along and trade their way. I thought it was my fault somehow that I was not making money and I believed them when they said they were making money even though I was not.
I REGRET BUYING THE TI SYSTEM. Oh well, there's a sucker born every minute and I deserved what I got for not doing my research.
Ever since America was founded, naive people constantly fell for the sales pitch of those with a "I'm just a simple man from the South" accent, and believed the gentleman wouldn't rip them off. Mr. Felton honed his snake oil skills at TI and took them to a new level after starting his own storefront.
Burn your money or give it to Felton--the results will be identical.
Ausy
From your post13, you show Green and Red Arrows for entries, but when I load chart, dont see them and cant find the parameter to enable it. can you help
I started my trading journey with TI.. Its amazing that they are still pulling the same dog and pony show... Roger takes the cake with his Im just a regular Texas guy... He left TI and uses a slight variation of the TI method after he and Afshin had a legal falling out...Roger orginally bankrolled by a former TI student... His first effort went belly up so hes back with a revised method.... Its only in Texas and Florida where the crooks settle...
I have an idea for the perfect system .... take the worst performing system you can find (TI's or anyone's system you feel is a really excellent at creating tax write offs) and simply trade against it!!! Hummm .... I might have to research this one a bit - sounds like a winner to me.
My experience with Dale was that his trade record at the end of the day was inaccurate--short should have been long; he was long not short here, etc. I took the time to go through his record and when I asked him what happened, he would say that he had, "made a mistake," "give him a break." Well, I did but after the second occasion I felt like an idiot and wrote TI off for not standing by their product. A ten foot pole isn't long enough.
I'm happy that I stuck with trading despite all the blackhearts trying to take my money.
The following user says Thank You to tomasito for this post:
Try using 3,4 and 2 on the %Ds and 5, 50, 20, 0 and 2 on the trigger MACD. Those are the ones I use in NinjaTrader and they are not the ones TI uses. As someone already pointed out, it doesn't matter what the settings are...it's how you use the tool (indicator) that matters.
Everyone is certainly welcome to their opinions and they can spread them all over if they choose. I would never care to take exception to anything said about TI in this thread. What TI does is no concern of mine. I'd never even bother to reply here except that my name was mentioned. Since I care deeply about the reputation I worked so hard to build, I felt obliged to respond.
During the years I was contracted to help launch and build TI, their reputation was spotless and they were a class act. What happened after I left is history. I went my way and they went theirs. I am not responsible for what they do yet I am forever blamed for decisions they made long after I left.
Am I a knockoff of TI? Well, we both use divergences. So do 300 other trading companies. Stochs and MACD's. Yep, so does everyone else. But are we identical? No! My timings are different, my filters are different, my other indicators are different, my methodology is different and my trader education isn't remotely related to what they teach. They don't have the "with trend" entries I do such as my LP entry which I developed myself.
Very importantly, they don't have coded trade entries that give them signals with warnings so the trader student doesn't have to stress and strain to find a trade. I could go on and on. But, no, we are nothing alike. Look at those charts that were posted. What's wrong with those entries? If those were TI's entries, computer generated, heck, I'd buy their system myself. Certainly none of you would be complaining.
Criticize me all you want but at least state real reasons. Is the fact I was TI's original moderator a real reason to criticize? I never had nor needed a "bankroller" but, if I ever did, is that a reason to dislike me. Just be fair. State actual facts that matter. I didn't come dragging home at midnight all those nights from 1-on-1 student support sessions just to to run a scam. That's not how scammers operate.
I don't think Big Mike intended this great Forum to turn into an Elite Trader infestation of vile trader losers who can't accept personal responsibility and point the finger at everything and anything they can to blame their failures on. Come on. We're all better people than that and I hope we're all friends. Hate me if you choose, but please know me first.
My "golden rule" of trading systems is simply this: "If a particular system or method did not work for you, then it just wasn't meant for you." The reason is irrelevant. Some will win with it and some won't (assuming the system had some real merit to begin with). Never buy any trading system based on a Webinar or a few days in a trading room. If a sales person pressures you, hang up fast. Actually try the system for yourself BEFORE you ever touch your wallet. If that's not an option, run.
Sorry, are we talking about the same TI here?. I first got exposed to TI at NY Expo 2000 and the next 9 NY Expos. A face-to-face demo with Afshin at the NY expo told me he was selling snake oil and it was confirmed when Franz came to town swinging his 'unit' as he explained it each of his 'unit' = 50 cars. Then he invited ET members to watch his 'live' trading; average in 4 'units' each time until somebody call him out as there were no corresponding contracts on the live DOM, busted and fired shortly afterward. So don't tell me 'their reputation was spotless'. I have been around the block quite a few times and you can't spin me.
The following 2 users say Thank You to cory for this post:
Your facts I have no problem with. It's the order of events. Franz Shore and his BullsEye BS came online in Mid 2005. I had already left TI. Why associate me with what they did AFTER I left?
If teaching divergence is "snake oil" then a lot of what's in futures.io (formerly BMT) needs to be removed.
wow looking back at this post... how the times have changed..
first, Roger thank you for you post. It was about a year ago I started with TI. I am a 27 year old graduate of the university of Pittsburgh. I tried a number of different jobs working for banks. National city as a consumer banker and BNY mellon as a trade specialist. I decided I couldn't handle the office environment any longer and set out on my own. I bought TI's method but didn't do enough research. Granted futures.io (formerly BMT) didn't exist back then. I was so excited to be making money at first that i went all the way to becoming an affiliate of TI.
after about 4 months of trading with TI i had lost my entire account (10k). I have been working in the PA department of welfare as a caseworker since then. I finally got up a little cash to start over. and left my crappy job in a dimly lit office. I plan on giving your free trial a shot. Hopefully it plays out better than TI. They cost me alot and I'm not very happy about it.
trading isn't easy and that's why i think i keep coming back to it. Its the only thing that challenges me and i like that. Good luck to you all! and thanks mike for keeping the forums running. I got a lot of catching up to do
There's no communicating with people who ignore facts so that's not my intent here, I just want readers of this thread to understand the facts. From 2004 to early 2005, Franz was my student. Around March of 2005, Afshin had Franz call some trades using the TI method. He wasn't very good at it and Afshin took him off. Franz complained bitterly. Since Franz and Afshin were "countrymen" fom Iran, Afshin put him back on. I immediately resigned. End of story.
Franz didn't start his BullsEye "throw wads of money at losing trades until your savings are gone" until AFTER I had already left and that's when things started going sour there, not before.
Bitter hardheaded people will still find a way to make everything my fault but at least some folks who will take the time to check out the facts will come to a more fair conclusion. At least that's my hope.
here is some facts for you, i met Afshin in 2000 he was president/owner of TI then and he is still owner/president of TI now so again in 2005 who did you work for? trainers come and go, if one leaves he hires another but I guess he learnt a lesson so he was able to shut down another trainer when that guy trying the same thing as you do.
Its amazing you would even feel the need to come on this forum.. It seems all your trying to do is deflect blame away from yourself and onto others. There was over a 50 page rant over at elite trader documenting your and Afshins dog and pony show. Are all those former students wrong too? To state facts you dont have any documentation that you actually made any qualatative funds trading the TI method. The demos you did for students showed past trades that would have made this or that and when you saw a trade go in your sirection a few ticks you would point it out and hope it continued. A vast majority of the students who took the class had no real experience in live markets and could be easily swayed by all the TI deceptions. All the demos were done on Sim which is easy to grab a tick each way since it doesnt use real bid/ask prices..a number of filters for trades against the trend are very subjective and can always be made to look good after the fact... there ar a number of very secure methods profiled on BM forums that dont cost 5-6000 as does TI. This is not the place to regain your reputation. its apparent to anyone who can see between the lines .
I have been in Roger's room the last two days .. it was free for a five day trial. they have been in the green both days and most of the other traders in the room are posting profits but you know how those things can be.. those traders might be in sim or like 20 ticks under for the day and just lying, but anyhow .. i plan on writing a short review about the trading room in the vendors thread once my free subscription runs out.
I understand how a newb might be interested in taking free trials to a couple of so-called educational service rooms, but to drop several thousands of dollars to join one is an act of ignorance given the overwhelming number of horror stories from ex-sheep (customers).
Real simple. Before you purchase, get the phone numbers of 6 customers who have been successfully using the method for at least 6 months. Be very clear, if you intend to trade full time, then you want to speak with full time traders. If you intend to trade part time, then you want to talk with part time traders. If you get any kind of song & dance about not wanting to share personal information, etc., then put you hand on your wallet and squeeze - don't let a single dollar slip away. Further, you don't need to waste your time talking to someone who bought the course last week and had a winning trade on Friday - that means nothing. If you like what you see in the room, and get at least 6 nice conversations under your belt from folks who are successfully implementing the method, it might be worth a go.
For what it's worth, and I know this is completely unsolicited advice, but here is my recommendation. I'd take whatever money you planned to shell out for education and put it in a small account. Bring up a chart with no indicators and watch price for a month, every day, no trades. After a month of screen time, when you feel the market is going up, get long, when you have profits take them. When you feel the market is going down, get short, when you have profits, take them. Do that for a month on sim. At that point, you'll be ahead of 90% of your competitors. Finally, start trading with 1 contract and plan on spending your entire "educational" fund. In other words, don't be surprised if you take some losing trades - it happens. The good news, is that it's not that complicated. But there are plenty of courses out there that will have you looking at divergence and oscillators and red / green arrows and moving averages, etc. etc. Watch the charts, observe price. When it's going up, buy. Going down, sell. When you have profits, take them. Wash, rinse, repeat.
The following 4 users say Thank You to timefreedom for this post:
I attended three of the 1 - 2 hour webinars last week. The 1st one was on the ES. The moderator placed one trade for a 1 point profit. The 2nd day was on the 6E. The moderator placed a trade and the trade was never talked about again. It was a loser. All the moderator talked about till the end was her current winning trades and the usual promo stuff. I texted the moderator about the status of the trade and never a got an answer. The 3rd day was on the ES and was the same moderator as the 1st day. He took five trades which netted out for 1 point profit, not including all the commissions. Based on the results I for one wouldn't be buying this method. Also the webinar had the ES moderator on camara while he was speaking but it was turned off while taking the trades. Interesting!
reading "trading for a living" and the guy who wrote (dr elder i think) is a genius . in the book he says all these guys (black box system salesmen) are crooks and you are definitely better off buying a few books and learning it the hard way. couldn't be truer
I have read some good comments on TI and some bad. I guess that is to be expected.
Here is my experience with TI. I took the course in '07. I had about two years of trading under my belt at that time but was not making any money (about break even). I had taken two other courses prior to joining with them. They were ok courses but did not make me a profitable trader.
After i finished the course with TI (4 months) I was still not making what i wanted but doing better than before. I kept at it for the next year (while still having a job) and kept trying to apply what i learned. Now I trade full time and I am making pretty good money. I got something out of all the courses i took but I believe TI gave me the best tools to do this full time.
They offered me a 3 day free trial. I spent a total of about 6 hours in the room , two hours each morning. They made money every morning i was in there. I also took a couple of their free webinars. I like what I saw. I am going to enroll based on what I witnessed in the rooms. Most likely after the new year.
NOTE: NONE of these comments reveal anything proprietary about Trader's International....nor does it guarantee that your experience with TI will be the same as mine.
I am a "lifetime" member of Trader's International (TI). My experience with them was mixed. While I will not characterize TI as a "scam", I do believe it's value was (and still is) oversold in webinars and sales pitches. I joined in late 2009...and sat in the room every day for months before finally giving up and moving on. The TI "setups/signals" in use at the time simply did not work. The TI "pro room" had been shut down and the moderator "relieved of his duties". The FX room was constantly losing money. The TI daily room continued to trade the S&P emini using non-working signals....all the while continually promising "new setups". The often promised "new setups" did not arrive in the room until late 2010.
I found Traders International a mix of Good News /Bad News:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bad News:
- The fee for joining TI is steep $$$$.
- Despite selling a "Life Time Membership"....TI still charges a monthly fee for continuing access to it's daily room. NOTE: The "LifeTime Membership" does gets you access to the training room..(not regularly updated) and access to the periodic "Question/Answer Training Session" conducted every week.
- The "indicators" that TI still sells (also for an inflated fee) are basic indicators that can mostly be found on the web for much less (free in many cases)....and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what these indicators are or what they do.
- I've been told that TI did pretty well for a number of years prior to 2009....but students who had the misfortune to join much after March 2009 were in for a bumpy ride.
- Recently TI started occasionally using a "secret indicator" to call some of the trades in their room. No education on what it is or how it is used.
- The TI student pages are not updated regularly....some of the old 'discontinued' trade setup training is still out there, and it still confuses some new students who diligently start trying to learn.
- TI is STILL...after all this time...."working on" getting training updated on their webpages for new setups/signals. NOTE: some of the new "setup/signal" training is available.
Good News:
- TI has one room moderator who truly does care about teaching trading...and who (I firmly believe) wants students to learn and be successful at trading.
- TI offers raw beginners a fair amount of hand holding with regard to setting up trading accounts, selecting a broker, and getting your trading platform (NinjaTrader) setup.
- The TI moderator (mentioned above) spends a lot of time providing overall market training....trends/trend lines/ Fibonacci/Volume/Market Delta/Price Action/ etc. You name it and this guy will eventually spend several hours explaining it. While all this information probably confuses some people, and it is way more info than any one person will use in their trading....he does provide a broad range of market related information/training.
- The daily TI "signals/setups" have migrated away from the old Fibnoacci numbered tick charts and very simple basic divergence calls....to a combination of minute and range charts. The new calls are based more on Price-Action, and the room trading results (since very late 2010) appear to have become more profitable and reliable.
SUMMARY: I have been in multiple trading rooms. Some offered training and live-trade rooms, while others only offered "follow along live trading" and some offered only "training".
None of them were perfect. Some were downright terrible. Every trading room I was in, had people that love it, and had people that hated it. Everyone learns differently. Some people need more help than others. Some people need more 'emotional support' than others. Some people have no idea at all what day trading Futures is, or what they really have in store for them before they become profitable.
For most folks....I think it is an excellent idea to get training/help and a mentor.
Having said this.... I would not make TI my first suggestion.
While I am sure some folks came away from TI feeling good about their experience....(it is not my place to dispute their personal experience)....I would direct beginning/intermediate trader's elsewhere.
The quality of all trading rooms seems to fluctuate over time, but the better ones manage to maintain a reasonable ongoing standard of performance. If you are motivated, have the time and the resources to learn on your own....by all means go for it. There are lots of trading books, free trading webinars, and free Internet material. If on the other hand you want to shorten your timeline and reduce risk, then find someone to help you.
At this point....if asked....I would suggest taking a look at Roger Felton's Trading room Get the Financial Freedom and Life You Deserve Trading Futures Like a Pro Roger has done several webinars on futures.io (formerly BMT). His approach to trading is primarily Price Action based....and Roger tends to use indicators more as "electronic highlighter" to draw attention to price action, rather than as Holy Grail signposts to be followed blindly. Roger has posted many of his indicators on Big Mikes Elite section for free....(although this does not include his trademark code DivPro).
I totally agree with photog53's comments about Felton Trading and wanted to add my 2 cents worth.
After watching Roger Felton's recent webinar here on futures.io (formerly BMT) I liked what I saw and downloaded his indicators which he has graciously uploaded for futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members. He also provides futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite members with unlimited free access to his trading room so I took advantage of this also and set up my charts to look like his. With no training or prior knowledge of his trade setups and just following his basic rules I have been able to profitably trade the CL in sim for the past two weeks! Like most traders I have tried numerous other systems and this is by far the best I have found.
Searching "traders international experience" on google tells me all I need to know about them.
The top ranked result is of course a blog and an article bragging it into the sky...first thought that comes into my head is affiliate marketing. Then you look at the various results from forums; and there's a HUGE number of complaints from people plus accusations of them being scam artists. Mind you, this is from users with upwards of 1000s of posts. Then there's some posters here and there with 1 or 2 posts who brag it into the sky.
I really don't have anything against a 'vendor' coming on the forum and hanging out and being a 'good' guy.
I visited Roger in the early 2000's in Austin, TX and hung out with him in his trading office for 1/2 day with his projection …
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I really don't have anything against a 'vendor' coming on the forum and hanging out and being a 'good' guy.
I visited Roger in the early 2000's in Austin, TX and hung out with him in his trading office for 1/2 day with his projection monitor {when he was with Traders International}.
Never signed up--neutral.
Roger is quite articulate (Southern style dialect). My personal opinion here; he is NOT hurting his potential sales being part of this rather specialized forum.
Very very few traders find this forum; especially new traders.
Regardless, though a free trial is pretty much a requirement at this point; in my humble opinion trading 'rooms' with an overlayed "method" should never cost several K upfront.
A better price structure is a monthly fee with option to buy--with monthly costs credited toward lifetime purchase.
But what do I know? What the market will bear, eh?
Divergence trading is simply buying bottoms and selling tops with short-term confirmation and you need a high winning % in order to come out ahead as your reward:risk gets closer to 1:1.
If you have an intial reward:risk of under 1.0 then you must scratch alot of trades and manage alot of your losers before they go to full losers.
That written; this is a good thread.
Now back to traders international; well, c'mon guys--just continue to do your research and you will see this is an ultra-high end retail product that many (if not all of us) of us can find better sources to continue our education.
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Moderator Notice
I would like to remind everyone to ensure they are speaking from direct experience, or to make it clear what you are stating is only your opinion based on your experiences in this market.
I am issuing this reminder as Traders International has threatened legal action over libel. Obviously, it is not libel if it is your direct experience, or if you are just stating an opinion without intention to defame.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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@JDB01, I have deleted your post because I believe it to be spam/self-promotion and a violation of the forum rules. You can feel free to contact me privately if you believe I am in error, and we can discuss.
Vendors are required to notify me prior to making any post on the site or they will be perm banned. Vendors creating shadow accounts to promote their own products will be perm banned and their behavior exposed.
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Just for curiosity, for those that are familiar with TI, they used to have Stockastics and MACD as the meat of their system. They seem to have given up on that and taking their clues from futures.io (formerly BMT) traders journals.
Here is what they used today in their live trading room. All the indicators seem to have come from futures.io (formerly BMT).
Examples are anaPivotsDaily, anaCurrentOHLC, Swing, FractalSRLines indicators and so on.
futures.io (formerly BMT) has made this such a leveled playing field that some vendors are ditching their stuff and reselling things that they grab from here.
How sad that some pay $5000 for this when they can get all they can eat on futures.io (formerly BMT) for free?
The following 3 users say Thank You to aligator for this post:
I wrote an more extensive review in a previous post #72...(August 2011).
.....(not gonna repeat everything, so if you haven't read that post, please do so)......
.....(also, please remember that everyone learns and responds differently, so your experience with the same group or training may differ from mine)
Since the initial review, several things have occurred that prompt this update.
First, there appears to have been personnel changes at TI. Specifically, the 'moderator' I mentioned in my prior post, is no longer affiliated with TI. Because that moderator was one of the few bright spots in my review of the TI approach, his leaving clearly downgrades my review.
Secondly, from a somewhat limited current view....(I spend more time on my own personal trading these days than I spend looking at my old trading rooms).....there appears to be a difference in skill level and attention to basic price action between the Australian TI group and the US TI group. This implies that the Australian TI room (depending on who is moderating) has a better grasp of basic price action, as compared to the US based room. This also implies that unless a US student plans on trading wee hours of the morning to take advantage of the Australian room...(meaning FDAX or other Euro markets)....they may not realize the benefit.
I will continue to check back occasionally on TI, and if I see improvement and changes I will re-post again.
Until then however, here is my latest opinion.
My initial review did not consider TI as a particularly strong choice....but at this point, I have to downgrade that review even further.
Hey Afshin,when you going to growup and stop st___ling others stuff and money?
I am a former client of those clowns,and since this is the USA,I can say as I please with facts to back up from fear of
retaliation of some sort. Cant fight the truth.
ps.I think alot of rooms are swipeing stuff from here......whats $50?
- you will also notice that I threw out the Macd and replaced it with the ECO and Demark indicators. I just posted the system for educational purposes.
its apparent to anyone who can see between the lines .
