Thanks Traderwerks. Good observation concerning Ninja. He sounded like a mix between a used car salesman and an auctioneer. In all fairness he seemed to be a good educator in that he spoke alot about following rules to attain consistency. And he spoke about the importance of the psychological aspect of trading- Discipline; Patience; Confidence. That's kind of rare. His trading methodology is another matter. There seems to be something suspicious or "off" with it. While I want to be objective, perhaps I need to listen to that "little something" that's telling me something's not right.
I am very satisfied with my membership and all the help JJ gave me.
I wanted his PaceOfTape, autoLineFiles, chat room access and his mentoring support.
That's what I bought, that's what I got.
I 'd like to bring to your attention that the video Lloyd made is based on bad knowledge as I wrote back to Lloyd.
"
I watched your YouTube video Lloyd and just can't believe how newbie you are with the Time/Sell window.
Only a Newbie trader would expect the Time/Sell to display the 4 contract order used by JJ.
Come on Lloyd, you should know that orders are sent to the broker 'Mirus' and Mirus order book is sent to the market then Zenfire gets the market data back to our time/Sell window.
No individual is connected to the CBOT.
"
So the turning point for Lloyd as said in pic1, is not valid to me .
Lloyd may have some good points though, yet to prove, since I just can't trade JJ's way with the time/Sell window use for last confirmation...way too stressful.
Lloyd also pinpoints some concerns we have about how strangely quick JJ is at entering or exiting the market.
I love SOT and don't want to lose my membership but I subscribed when JJ was saying "start making money now" and this never happened, not because he may trade live or sim , I don't care, but because I have a big psychological issue from my stock trading experience.
Trading is about you, no one else can do it for you and subscribing to SOT helped me a lot.
The following user says Thank You to PiCoTrader for this post:
The only point I wish to make is I do not care if I see bad information on the web about trading room. Trading is about people and our way to see market.
What I care about is how room is operated, can moderator follow rules, can I can see what he/she is trading and how and where they are going into and out of the trade. The most important to me is how much risk they would take on any trade and if I can take the same risk with my account size. If my account is not big enough to trade the same set ups, or take the same risk I would not continue with the room.
I took 30 days of free time in the room. I traded just about every trade moderator took in the room and I could not make it work for me.
I think moderator was doing OK job in educationg people in the room but I do not think he could follow his own rules and I did not like it.
After my 30 days I was offered very high one time price that I did not feel I could recover any time soon.
I would recomnd to you to review some posts at BMF I think was written by Jaguar. He made some great points about how to evaluate room/sIn fact I used points from his post to evaluate SOT room.
I hope this would help
After watching and listening to JJ for some time it is clear that something is not quite right. I watched him trade the ES one day as he was trying to make 4 ticks. He was in the trade for several minutes. When the Market finally reached his target it filled his target on the first touch. All sorts of red lights went off when I saw that. There is no way an order is going to be filled on the first touch- not on the ES. While the Market does not have to go through an order to be filled it does have to trade at it for some time in order to get filled if it doesn't go through it.
I found his daily recaps suspect as well. What he says he is doing and what the Market did and the way he demonstrates it on his charts are inconsistent. He says that, "the Market puts in a swing low and then we wait for it to break below that low." Where he says he got in is inconsistent with what he just said. His order is not below the low but on the bounce off of it. He gets in before it breaks below the low. The problem is people are waiting for the Market to trade below the low to get in. When JJ says he got in, people hear that and try to get in also. Where they get in is a tick or two above the low. It trades one tick below the low and then bounces back up. JJ made his money and counts it as a winning trade while others lost money and are left wondering what happened and what they did wrong. The fact is, JJ didn't do what he said he was doing. He said he was waiting for it to break below the low and then got in before it breaks the low. If people managed to get in on that one tick below the low they lost as well. But JJ counts it as a winning trade. Later when it actually does break the low during the Daily Recap JJ glosses over the whole interplay of the bounces that the Market takes. With his marker draws the low and repeats the same verbiage, "the Market puts in a swing low and then we wait for it to break below that low" as he draws where the Market actually does break below the low insinuating that's what he did and where he took the trade- which it is not. A person would never know what actually happened unless they could compare what happened in the room and at what point he actually took the trade and then compared that with what he says on his Daily Recap. What he says he did (wait for it to break...) and what he actually did (got in on the bounce off the low) are very inconsistent and suspect.
I've been following SOT for over a year and never saw JJ trade the ES so you probably caught an old video.
All the entries that are not PASS the break is probably caused by the "Trap Entry" available to members only.
It is very difficult for JJ to post a video and not talk about it.
It is also confusing to viewers on YouTube because he teaches where his ideal entries are and sometimes he gets a better fill.
I myself could never get the same fill, so I suspect he has better reflex and more experiences with HIS system. The point is to learn and become a trader with OUR edge....not shadow trade him.
Just remember that JJ is always looking for a reason NOT to enter a trade. He knows damn well that patterns may not always work on his time frame. and this "retenue" is confusing many.
I used to teach for many years myself and I wouldn't do much better teaching in a Live market.
This is way harder than EOD "end of day" teaching you would get at any seminar sold for thousands of bucks.
We got everything here at bigmiketrading.com to develop OUR skill, OUR edge but SchoolOfTrade.com has something unique also.
If anybody has any doubt or any question about SOT......why not simply email him at JJ@schooloftrade.com
or wait for SOT members like me to post some comment and facts.
Hope it helps!
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Did u take part in the trading session of 5 November. I saw jj's video on his blog that sounds too good to be true. could u gimme your insights. how does it work for u. Do u need many months of simtradign to be successful. how do u know if jj trades on a live acct?
nqcruiser, this is from the terms and conditions from SOT website:
Trading Signals
... Note that the alerts discussed in the Signal Performance record are for hypothetical use only and may or may not have been actually traded, they are for educational use only.
... The chat room is for online educational purposes only. It is not to be misunderstood as a trading room. Such as a room giving signals for trading real money. We request that our students follow our trades using a simulator as we do when we recognize trading opportunities. Please do not misunderstand our services. We are here to educate students using actual real-time charts and simulated trades.
You got good questions here so I guess you are serious about your trading and that's good.
Did u take part in the trading session of 5 November? NO, I didn't log in the SOT room at all last week.
I sometimes log in during the pre-market to see JJ's insight for the day ahead but after a year of hearing non stop talking...I just can't bear it anymore
I watched the 11-05-2010 video from the blog and don't see what is too good to be true earning 320 ticks on 4 contract trades. I know many people earning over 500 ticks daily and I made myself 101 ticks on 1 contract scalps this Friday. I only traded the Russell2000.
could u gimme your insights. how does it work for u?
I used JJ's teaching but trusting our-self with somebody else method and real money is very hard.
I used JJ's personal mentoring to improve my trust, and time had to do its work. Joe is always available to help you out.
"I am studying the market reaction AND my reaction to the market" every day from 6am to 6pm
I developed my own method....my edge...as would say BigMike....because I never could trade JJ's way using the time/sell windows and I always feel that the Breaker setup is coming from too far to succeed..... even when it does succeed.
I'm getting better at trading my hedge every day so it goes pretty well since I'm constantly improving.
Do u need many months of simtrading to be successful? Joe watch 4 commodities and a newbie can only focus on a single one. Let's say you're watching Crude, Joe could have been trading 2 CL trades and you missed both trades as it happens too fast.
He would be drawing trend lines on Gold then suddenly he's in a Crude trade he called before...always alert he says.
He could take his next trades on Gold before finishing the day but you are on Crude.
You thought you could shadow trade him watching CL....not much chance to follow him!
Better learn his technique and apply it yourself because you won't get more chances at shadow trading him the next day either and that's what JJ wants you to do....do your own trade.
It takes so long just to trust yourself that YES it takes many months to be successful. Even many years!
I subscribed to SOT because JJ was saying during Christmas 2009 “Lets start making money today” or “membership could pay for itself within 3 weeks”. I thought, with my stock trading experience, that I could shadow trade him but I was wrong!
Future was new to me and SOT taught me all I know about the Future market, so it was really worth it anyways!
how do u know if jj trades on a live acct? We don't! As we don't know from any vendor!
To me, its not of importance as it is not putting cash in MY trading account.
His teaching is great so I don't see why he would fake it....but I may still be a naive newbie.
Assumption of being profitable quickly was sadly not fulfilled but.....
I see value in his teaching, his trade room, his proprietary indicators. All at a price I could afford.
I'm curious, who would you learn from on how to trade:
A. An individual lecturer with several academic credentials, but NEVER traded in his/her life or couldn't trade if his/her life depended on it.
B. A silver tongue slick sales man that knows how the market functions but DOESN'T know how to trade it live for a REAL profit...and only POSTS bogus profits.
C. neither A or B
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
You question my video regarding time & sales, since making that video SOT have updated their own terms & conditions to confirm exactly what my video was trying to establish, whether JJ traded in SIM or not and if he was lying to us when he maintained he traded a live account in his trade room! An extract from these terms was posted by tellytub on November 7th 2010.
I since made a further video containing an example of how JJ hides his losing trades. This is the major element of his scam nowadays since he has stopped pretending to trade a live account. JJ's publicised profit results are complete fabrication and if they included all his losses the results would not be profits like he pretends.
You say you are a SOT member since 2010 so you joined just after me in December 2009. I see your refer to the trap entry in one of your posts which means you must have taken a full advanced course membership like me (approx $3600) right?. You later say you don't login to SOT much any more because you cannot bear the non stop talking. So let's git this right, you paid a lot of money to join and you say you never made anything back and you also don't use the trading room any more. So the upshot is SOT did not working for you and yet you still say you love it?
You also mentioned you have now developed your own method so I take this as good evidence the SOT methods did not work for you either.
I understand from plenty of experienced traders who posted on the trade to win thread that most, if not all of the stuff that JJ wraps around his scam school can be found freely on the internet. So I fail to see why you are trying to present value in JJ teaching methods, especially considering the evidence against him?
Quite a few good reviews exists form users who have studied SOT methods on the pissed consumer consumer review site, worth a look.
I would post some direct links in here but I do not have authority yet as I only just started using Big Mikes Trading forum.
best regards
Lloyd Hopkins
The following user says Thank You to LloydH for this post:
I watched the 11-05-2010 video from the blog and don't see what is too good to be true earning 320 ticks on 4 contract trades. I know many people earning over 500 ticks daily and I made myself 101 ticks on 1 contract scalps this Friday. I only traded the Russell2000.
His teaching is great so I don't see why he would fake it....but I may still be a naive newbie.
Hey Pico trader
You could probably buy SOT if you make 100 ticks per day easily on 1 contract on one instrument.
You and your friends should open your own school with results like that.
Any chance of explaining your methodology?
thks
As I told you, every trading system works in some point but what about our executions?
1. JJ's entries based on the Time/Sell window as last confirmation signal is absolutely not working for me.
2. JJ taught me all I know about Futures Trading and I wanted to buy the PaceOfTape indicator.
The most important aspects of trading that I've learned from JJ is "to stop over trading" and "Discipline".
To me it all was worth it!
though it never was profitable to pay for the course. We also have to take our share of responsibility.
Today, I don't attend the SOT room often because JJ just repeats himself over and over so I don't need to be there anymore.
I took all I could from JJ and moved on to become a pro trader!
Since you brought our attention at "who made it using the SOT system"
JJ did indeed change his disclaimer and stopped pretending to trade a live account.
Disappointing! Does not smell good!
Your remark is not helping anybody here.
You assume I do this every day regardless of the market conditions.
I trade every day but I don't take trades every day.
It could be 2 weeks before I take a trade mostly because I don't trust the market speed. That's the main reason that come out from my Live trading journal.
I often see many entries but don't take them, though I should ( they end up being winning trades.)
It is a lack of discipline but also a lack of knowledge about the instrument personality.
The market conditions ( speed, volatility ) is what concerns me.
Dealing with stalling price (a portfolio killer) and preserving capital is essential. Not taking trades at all cost.
About my trading strategy, it is based on Jeff's "All you need" template and using the TsSupertrend + Adxvma indicators. You add up thousands of hours watching the market behavior and get a feel about the real job we do = risk manager!
Come join us in the Skype Trading room if you trade Live
You should look at post #115 on the trade2win thread regarding SOT, again I cannot link yet as I am a new member. However, you did not need to pay JJ for the pace of tape indicator, it is not even his code. The original author of the pace of tape indicator made it available to others for free. I understand that JJ has just taken his code and modified it to look different. The author also offers advice as to when he feels this indicator works and when it does not, probably worth talking to him if you plan to use this tool in your future trading.
The following user says Thank You to LloydH for this post:
I have read the 115 post a long time ago at t2w. Thank you.
As you are a new member here and haven't read many thread yet,
you have no way of knowing and jump too fast on conclusions.
here are some facts:
Cunparis uploaded his latest version of a PaceOfTape_Paris in the download section here on March 15 2010.
Merci Cunparis
Unfortunately it is not working the same way.
I tried both live on the same chart and the Cunparis one acted more like a volume histogram to me.
I didn't look at the Cunparis coding yet because within minutes I knew I couldn't get the POT results.
I would have love it to work the same way, but it was just using the same name PaceOfTape.
It was also only working on tick charts.
I've been following SOT and his PaceOfTape since August 2009.
Fair enough, with cunparis leaving comments on the SOT thread at T2W saying he was the original author I think it was reasonable to accept that he was establishing a link between his PaceOfTape indicator and the one JJ uses. Perhaps cunparis himself was assuming that the SOT indicator was based on his own code? I guess if they are not the same code then they are based on the same idea?
Given the SOT pace of tape is different code do you know if it is their own code? If so I know that SOT has the following disclaimer relating to limited user license which I assume will apply to their PaceOfTape indicator...
"No subscriber or other user is allowed to copy, sell, license, modify, distribute, reproduce, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, publish, adapt, edit, create any of the materials or Site Content on our site or any derivative works from or use the Site Content, in whole or in part, except as is expressly authorized by this license."
when i was stuck with trading for a while i have followed him for the full trial. i liked the positive energy but felt that it was too good to be true, and so i it is.
I was looking through my SOT advanced course material as I wanted to compare these two POT indicators to see what the differences are. I noticed the PaceOfTape indicator is one of 3 indicators which JJ ships out as compiled code with a setup.
Were you able to get the original POT indicator source code supplied to you from SOT?
Pico Trader, I know you usually respond quickly to emails and forum posts so its a little out of character for you to leave this one for a few days.
Unfortunately I am still trying to clarify this situation with the PaceOfTape indicator. I remember you mentioned to me that you had reprogrammed the POT indicator to add audio alerts. Given your last comments I take it this was not the cunparis code you modified? So I guess you must have obtained POT source code from JJ after all? I think it is interesting that SOT let you take their indicator source given you are now setting up your own Skype Trading Room.
SOT POT indicator is something he wrote, he did not take the code from cunparis, If you look back at when SOT started out, its well before cunparis version.
Thanks tellytub, I understand it is different code and when I went to take a look at the differences between them I discovered the SOT PaceOfTape indicator is distributed by SOT as compiled code.
So my question for Pico Trader was where did he get the source for it?
For the benefit of any reader browsing this thread I wanted to point out a couple of more things worth noting about SOT.
JJ was caught red handed pretending to be a satisfied client, posting positive comments about SOT on a forum thread just thread like this one, details can be found in post #26 the following Aussie stock forums thread : Question about SchoolOfTrade.com - Aussie Stock Forums
SOT has desperately been trying to silence me from sharing my experiences and facts uncovered about the SOT scam. SOT tried to have my review videos taken down from You Tube using false claims of copyright infringement. Following an investigation by You Tube my videos were re-instated.
I reprogrammed the PriceAlert indicator default with Ninja7 ( not the POT) to work with my own sound files
and use it to add audible alerts to the PaceOfTape.
I am still thinking to add my PriceAlert to the download section here.
Anybody could use it as a volume alert or any indicator level breaks.
I do not have JJ's code and though I am a programmer, I have no intention to crack it as I respect his proprietary rights.
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You can ask him to turn on the chart trader!
I have already asked him for this but his anser whas NO.
So he is trading on the back ground and he only shows the chart when his first target is hit!
Can some one explane what kind of indicators and settings he uses?
Asking for a Ninja Trader performance report will reveal the true picture, I would expect to see plenty more trades than he actually shows on screen listed in there. JJ is quite skillful at talking over them. You might hear a him often say something like "Yes Joe, good question Joe what is the Fast Track", this is him buying time and changing the subject because he never continues to answer the question. I recorded an example of JJ in action calling a trade which goes bad an then it gets glossed over with alot of talk and waffling, YouTube - FakeTradingResults
I know it has now already been proven that JJ trades in SIM mode and SOT even admit this themselves but I'm interested in getting some other opinions on this quote from "Pico Trader" regarding Time & Sales data.
I understood the Zen Fire servers to be co-located on the exchange floor and all data on the connection with NT to be unfiltered. So in my video we saw 2 entries on the Time & Sales window at the price of 79.44 , one for 62 contracts and the other for 1 contract.
Is it really the case that JJ's 4 contract order would not be individually listed on the Time & Sales window but instead would be hiding inside the entry for 62 contracts as suggested by "Pico Trader" ?
If any trader who is experienced with this Time & Sales window stuff out there could advise on this situation it would be very much appreciated.
I believe it was in October '09 that the Exchange changed the way they transmitted data. Before then they were bundling data and thereby obscuring individual orders. Traders, who understand how to read the T&S window and thereby attempt to track institutional orders cried foul as the information that was being sent out by the exchange was misleading. In October '09 they unbundled the orders and the orders coming across the T&S window are the actual individual orders as they go through the exchange.
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I paid to become a member of SofT last spring. I regret that decision. It really bothers me that JJ doesn't show his DOM so you're left with his version of play by play. He always seems to be in winning trades and when it moves in his favor he says did you guys get in with me instead of saying ahead of time exactly where he was entering.
Conversely, he has also has said he was in a trade then hemmed and hawed and said he wasn't in, that it was too risky. You wonder if anyone else just heard what transpired and you type it in and ... nothing. Ignored question.
Also, you can't see what other members in the room are thinking/saying since GoToWebinar blocks comments and only he can see what's what.
One of the ways he lured me to part with my cash was by selling this great secret he had concerning entering trades thru the NinjaTrader DOM. I watched his video on that subject and was just left with... huh? That's it? Fool me once...
Bottom line, if I could get a refund and never go back I'd happily take it. Live and learn.
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I've had friends ask if they could come over and watch me trade.. and I always say no. Having someone I know watch what I'm doing is creepy enough... can not for the life of me imagine a real trader agreeing to let a bunch of folks on the internet watch and ask questions while he's trading real money... maybe it's just me
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
I agree with you. I have been on one room now for more then 10 months. In my room moderator trading in SIM and we all know that she is trading in SIM.
We also know every rule of the trade since every rule is posted on her website.
She also now posting her trading rules on the screen so everyone can follow where and how she is trading. We can also see her DOM as she is placing her orders and taking her targets, or taking stop losses.
There are very many trading rooms on the net, but this is the only one where I could truly follow and that helped me to improve on my trading.
I think I have posted the name of the room before, but if anyone in need of the info please let me know would be glad to provide.
I am having a very hard time in understanding how anyone would PAY an individual that trades the LIVE market, BUT is only SIMULATING trades...WTF?!!!! Can we get real here?
If this individual is soooo confident in his/her trading methodology, then TRADE it LIVE, with REAL MONEY!!!
I truly believe this is an example of Like Attracting Like...these unsuspecting traders who follow these CHARLATANS...ya, that's right I SAID IT!!! Will only end up like these Charlatans...nothing but a Paper Trader, a Simulation Trader....never ever going LIVE...WAKE UP!!!
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
is WTF= way to fortune!!! ???? or you had something more to say?
Oh I did not say I pay nothing!!! Zero free room, training and advise and phone consultations when I have additional questions. Yes there are rooms where you can get help from. Hence I do not care SIM or not, since I'm not looking for trades to take from others I have other goals when I'm in the room.
Have you ever traded when someone was looking over? I guess not. Try I would like to see if you would make it. Ops you are just starting out so you still have time to learn.
Aragorn, thanks for this information, it makes sense to me when watching T&S with lots of small 1 and 2 contract orders listed that it was showing everything.
"Pico Trader" it now seems that your newbie comments regarding T&S and my video need retracting? I have to say you sound remarkably like JJ in your post!
The reason I spent so much effort trying to expose SOT & JJ is because I have the truth on my side and I know it is only a matter of time before more and more people join me, the end result for JJ is inevitable. Please review the latest comments posted on this thread : United Business Servicing - www.schooloftrade.com (SOT) & Joseph James
It should be really simple for anyone willing to invest alot of money for training, your teacher should be willing to show you his actual brokerage statements and live trading DOM not an excel spreadsheet that anyone can make it really is that simple! JJ does not show either and when asked simply says he can't do it, no explanation other than why should he. That tells me all I need to know, dont spend a dime there are plenty of legitimate traders who sell training and show their live accounts thats the way to go.
More needs to be done to shut people like this down. This industry is full of scam artists who prey on others through a perfected craft and web of lies and deceipt. Perhaps members aught to take an agressive and united stance to get this guy out of the industry.
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Linds, this topic need further investigation to establish exactly how a non US resident can file a small claim. I do not have the answer yet unfortunately. What we have is the defendant selling a service over the internet to customers outside the state of California.
I joined to learn how to become a better trader, not to shadow trade someone.
Personally I think that if you join the SOT (or any trading service/website) with the ambition to shadow trade someone, you're an idiot and you don't want to actually learn how to become a trader, just how to push the button when someone else says so.
If you follow the emails, facebook posts, or tweets from Schooloftrade.com the answer to whether or not he is trading live is usually found within.
A facebook post today stated "85 ticks trading crude oil, 3 trades called live today"
He will say 3 trades called LIVE, instead of saying 3 live trades. A little twist of the words can work nicely.
Its pretty obvious that he is not trading live.
Is the school legitimate? As a school, yes it is, as a never-have-a-losing-day-again-trading-this-unbelievable-system, god no. The education offered by SOT is good, he is continuously updating the website and building out the business for his members. Most of the video's however can be cut down to about 20 minutes of actual information, the other hour is him repeating himself. Regardless, I still learned some things from JJ that I have integrated into my trading. I wouldn't put a price tag of 3 or 4 thousand dollars on it though, its pretty obvious that his focus is selling memberships and not actually making money day trading.
I could speculate on why he does not trade live, and I don't think it is because he does not know what he is doing, but that too, is irrelevant to the question that was asked.
Im not saying that the same information can not be found elsewhere, because it certainly can be, or that JJ is the master of the trading universe. I figured out that he was probably not trading live shortly after becoming a member. However, given the investment I do not try and trash the website all over the internet as that will only get me revoked. I just check in from time to time and see if it can provide me with any new helpful information.
Hope that helps, I know this is an older thread but maybe it will prove useful for new visitors.
When I joined SOT JJ blatantly insisted he traded a live account in his trade room. When he was questioned as to why he did not trade more contracts given his methods were so successful he used to say that his brothers traded his "main" account for him and he just traded a small account in the live trade room. If you asked JJ to provide evidence to support his claims he kicked you out of your lifetime membership. Many people were deceived by JJ and his false claims. Furthermore there are several quotes in public forums from JJ claiming he trades a live account. JJ has definitely changed his approach and is now putting heavy emphasis on the fact his methods are for education purposes only. With all the information now online and with the heat that has been created JJ is being forced to admit things he would not have chosen not too in the past. JJ realised he could not continue with his blatant rip-off scam tactics and is now trying to clean up his act, that is the bottom line. Even if JJ became squeaky clean now it will not excuse him for the crimes in his past.
.
I am a little bit confused about why you felt the need to post a venting reply, as I clearly answered Aragorn's question. But it's evident from your blog, youtube video's, posts on Ripoff Report and probably every scam review website on the internet, that you have a serious grudge against the school of trade, so I am not surprised you would jump at the opportunity.
I blatantly said that I did not think JJ was trading LIVE and that I did not feel that the education provided was worth the money, furthermore I also said I was hoping that this would help a new visitor who is contemplating joining the SOT. In other words I am telling people not to join. So that is why I am a little confused about why you would rant about JJ's "crimes of the past" towards me, I am not concerned with that.
I am not here defending him in any way, or advocating his service.
Let me reiterate my points in my previous post more clearly, so hopefully we can be on the same page.
Is the SOT legitimate? My answer, As an "educational service" Yes.
Is JJ trading LIVE? My answer, NO, I do not think so.
Is the education from SOT worth the price tag? My answer, NO.
Fibbee
“When you hold resentment toward another, you are bound to that person or condition by an emotional link that is stronger than steel. Forgiveness is the only way to dissolve that link and get free.”
The following user says Thank You to Fibbee for this post:
Is SOT Legitimate in any way, NO! Not even as an educational service Fibbe and I will tell you one more reason why.
Do you really think Joseph James (JJ) is for real in any way? Why does he use a false name then? Yes, that's right JJ has a shady history all right and when he moved to California he thought twice about using his real name in case he got tracked down again. Joseph James is in fact really called Joseph Dufresne and he works his scam with his brother.
Now that we have uncovered your real name Joseph, I wonder if anybody out there can help us with your address in California?
adjective:
1.pertaining to education.
2.tending or intended to educate, instruct, or inform.
Within the SOT website I counted over 40 educational videos, that's not including the links for download which include all of the indicators, automated strategies, or written notes. All of them with the intention to EDUCATE the members on everything from advanced price patterns to the use of the NT platform, as well as a wide range of educational subjects that pertain to trading. They are not on selling insurance, not on changing brake pads, not on how to cook a good turkey. The lessons are trading education. JJ is not breaking any laws by offering education, therefore by definition he is a legitimate educational service. If he was offering education and then did not deliver on such an offer, he would be illegitimate.
Once again however, you are assuming that I care about Joseph James or Joseph Dufresne or Joseph Whatever's character. I do not. I cut my loss on the trade a long time ago. You should do the same. I do not care if he is a professional scam artist or the most honest guy on earth. That doesn't concern me, I am worried about myself and my own trading. It wouldn't make a difference to me if he is selling snake oil on the corner of Hollywood blvd. The trading industry, unfortunately is full of scams and people promising you financial freedom, however success ultimately lies within the individual. Just accept that.
Anyone can go to Clickbank and become an affiliate for some dumb forex robot, and start peddling people pipe dreams, the internet is littered with them. That's the reality of this business.
Cut your loss, or take him to court if you feel you have a case. (either way I don't really care)
There is no doubt that JJ (Joseph Dufresne) has taken a considerable amount of good educational material and incorporated into his offering. Information the likes of which you will find in any good day trading/futures trading book for $50.
This is what I would call window dressing for his scam. JJ thinks his is smart and slick and capable of staying one step ahead of the rest of us. This is why his message is constantly changing as he reacts to things when he gets exposed. This is why SOT is setup as a Delaware company and using a mail drop box, to hide the contact details of the individuals behind this scam.
For example, when I was a member early in 2010 he was selling the James Wave trading system, a proprietary system developed exclusively by Joseph James including trade entry & exit methods, patterns for setups, strategies and technical indicators all which delivered amazing profits. Poppycock, this was an elaborate scam based around SIM trading and deception. JJ would hide failed trade entries from the room and produce a cook book trading summary showing amazing results. This was a web of lies and JJ sold it. You will find no mention of this on his website today. His advanced course was supposed to teach you how to master the James Wave trading system and yes it contained the same window dressing from the $50 trading books.
Look at the latest information in 2012 about his advanced course here https://schooloftrade.com/information.php?id=3, what you will find is lots of emphasis on his auto trader. You will hear lots of heavy selling and huge claims of REAL MONEY PROFITS from this auto trader. He talks about no overnight margin and $500 to get started. He covers drawdown and how good his auto trader is in this regard. Drawdown is of course a major concern for live trading as it relates to equity required in your live account to support the auto trader. Well firstly, this is in direct contradiction to his disclaimer about how this is all for “educational purposes only”. Secondly, it is more deceit and miss-selling of a product from JJ. The profits promised from the auto trader will be based on SIMULATED results and yet JJ sells them in his video to you as REAL MONEY PROFITS. Just like his James wave trading system this auto trader will produce dramatically different results if used on a live account. He continues to promise that his members will re-produce the same profits he publishes for his live trade room against their live accounts. This is a total lie and JJ knows it, he knows very well that everything he teaches will NOT perform anything like this in live trading. Why you ask? well the details and facts surrounding why SIM trading and live trading are very different and how JJ hides failed trade entries from view are well documented in many of the forum threads on SOT, just go read them all thoroughly.
Let’s look at his sales waffle surrounding lifetime membership; this is more of the same from JJ. He maintains the lifetime membership is there to allow his experienced members to give back to the community and help the new traders. Poppycock again, he does not charge monthly fees because members who are foolish enough to join soon work out he if full of c**p and would simply cancel their subscription immediately.
Is it a fair representation of SOT to ignore all of these facts and simply put all the focus on the fact that JJ has incorporated some valid educational material worth $50 into his scam school? I say DEFINITELY NOT!
Do these lines taken direct from JJ advanced course sales video sound like valid education to you?
“Trade 1 contract or a 1000 contracts, trade anything that moves”
“make money while you sleep”
The following user says Thank You to LloydH for this post:
5482 Wilshire Blvd #1539
Los Angeles, CA 90036 is a UPS store
Btw if you click on terms and conditions or refund policy on your link there, nothing happens .... red flag time....
"Successful trading is one long journey, not a destination" Peter Borish Former Head of Research for Paul Tudor Jones speaking on conversations with John F. Carter
I did his 2 week free trial and sim traded along with him and he tweaks his stats to his favor. I don't think he trades live but in sim because every trader room I have been in, the trader says, I am trading now, I will call it out but don't ask any questions during this time. We will answer your questions later after our live trading is done.
This guy does nothing but teach during the session and tells his students to ask him if there is a set up and he will let them know!!! Traders: is that how you trade, i think not. You are concentrating on your charts for your entry.
I think he makes his money off of selling his systems.
My two cents.
Rachel
The following user says Thank You to Rachel for this post:
Fibbee, myself and others firmly believe SOT is a SCAM. I commented on your post because I felt it did not accurately reflect what SOT is all about, I hope you can understand that. I want to expose this scam and warn as many people as possible from becoming a victim of these individuals.
my apologize, but I really do not know what is wrong with you, that many years attacking SOT. Why is important for your trading, if JJ trading live or demo account???? Do you become a better trader just because a JJ trading live account instead of the demo account without other knowledge??? You do not!!!
Please, we are going to hate all your comments on all possible forums about SOT.
Always repeat the same and you do not tell us anything new and smart. And all of this just because you thought that followed like a shadow JJ calling and earning money without any knowledge.
The Joseph James Consulting site is a different guy. On the about us page it's some guy named Joseph Mertes. Which is kind of strange that his site would be Joseph James Consulting and not Joseph Mertes Consulting but regardless it definitely not the same guy.
I find your post disturbing and your credibility negligible. On the one hand you tout School of Trade for it's educational instruction and on the other hand indicate that you do not care where or from whom that information comes from. I'm not sure what type of education appeals to you or how desperate you are for it but a reasonably intelligent person, it seems to me, would be just as interested in the credibility of the educator as the credibility of the "information" they offer, especially if there is a price tag affixed to it. To suggest that you care nothing about the integrity of the educator and the validity of their educational authenticity says as much about you as it does about them.
I am not touting the School of Trade. That post was mainly just an effort to show Lloyd that the SOT can still qualify as an educational service because it does offer trading education. I find his posts as disturbing as you find mine. Does that mean that I do not personally find what he (JJ) is doing wrong, absolutely not. If I could be refunded my money I would take it in a heartbeat, but I know that's not going to happen. I was merely trying to equate my poor decision of joining the SOT with a bad loss in the markets, emphasizing to Lloyd that I accept I was ripped off, or wrong on the trade, and have moved on, or cut my loss.
In my personal opinion the education offered there, actually everything offered there is not worth the money. Not even close. And most of the video's could be cut down to about 10 or 20 minutes of useful information. The remaining hour and a half of "training" is just people asking dumb questions and him repeating himself. (same with the trade room) I could go into more detail about the actual information offered but for the most part it is all basic trading subjects, how to use fibs, reading the tape, etc. I will however, in an effort to further discredit myself, say that I did pick up a couple things from him about market personality that I find useful. Was that worth the price tag? no way. Now as far as JJ and his credibility goes, I am not sure why he does not trade live because he definitely knows a lot about how the markets work, and how to trade, etc. So I am a little bit confused I guess that he would not trade live. Either way it makes no relative difference to my trading as of today, and that was all I was trying to get across.
I joined the SOT about a year ago and at the time I will admit I did not do my own due diligence about Joseph James and his operation. That was a mistake on my part. So, I also feel slightly had but I have accepted that I made a poor decision and have moved on. I do care, very much so, about the integrity of the educator as well as the education that is offered. That is why I commented on this thread initially, to hopefully deter someone from spending 4 grand to learn how to trade an ema wave pattern.
Thank you for clarifying Fibbee. The only thing I would caution is that if you believe JJ and School of Trade to be, how shall I say it, not all that it purports to be or not in accordance with what it is being represented to be by JJ, to not appear to discredit the message that Lloyd and the others are trying to get out. It gives the impression that you are supporting and backing JJ and the School of Trade as being valuable and worth the cost. There may be others, like me, who were confused by the point you were trying to make.
I am not trying to discredit the message, I have the same message. I was trying to provide anyone who visits this thread a factual contribution from an actual member. If anything I think that my opinion holds more weight than someone who spent a day in the trade room and has two cents to kick in. The "supporting" or contradictory nature of my previous post in regards to the education that is offered by the SOT was not an endorsement of any kind. It was basically just the sarcastic bi-product of being annoyed with Lloyd's prior comment. That whole thing about his real name being Joseph Dufresne was totally irrelevant to what I was trying to say. Assuming that's true, that doesn't mean he isn't still offering trading education, it just means he's a liar.
Regardless, If you want people to join your cause and support your message you should present the facts as they are. No matter how much negative emotion you carry about this, the SOT is still technically providing trading education. Albeit, overpriced and misleading.
My intentions here are not to fight with anyone, I am a friendly trader among traders, and that is only my opinion.
plenty of reviews and information about the shenanigans of the business.
Thanks LloydH. I'm glad and thankful for the warning about the place and it's probably helped
steer away a lot of people who would also be otherwise taken for an expen$ive ride.
(unfortunately its at the point if one just types "crude oil" in the youtube search bar, a lot of schooloftrade's "big win videos" i.e. +120 ticks, +76 ticks etc. , pop up now)
I don't want to start a fight in hear but do you people understand what your saying ?
Why would it matter if he trades live , imagine how hard it is to run a chat room and explain every trade and trade live at the same time ,
I did 2 free sesions and he made over $1000 every day so finally the last week I shadow traded him and I made the same but I only uses 2 contracts so I made half but he's calls we're clear and legit.
All he's tring to do is teach you how to trade I mean he even gives health advise and life advise . He's live every day , yes he talks alot but he is also a yOung guy , I like it gets u pumped for trading .
As with any product there will be people like Lloyd that don't like it and cause a problem so I wouldn't let him steer u away , just like Toyota with throttle sticking but they make a great car stilll.
Take a free coarse and look at his profit , he makes money for you that is all he works for is you .
I called global futures and spoke to his broker and he does trade live most of the time and that's all they could tell me on the phone . The fact if he trades live or sim dosent matter cause he trades for you
Just sick of all these people hating on someone tring to help us , yea his fee is a little high but it's negotiable and the auto trader makes that back in a month anyway , look at other sites , some guys charge thousands just for a strategy that might it work .
Anyway check it out for yourself but go into it with a positive head and see if it's right for you. I'm going to join this week and I'll keep u informed
I don't want to start a fight in hear but do you people understand what your saying ?
Why would it matter if he trades live , imagine how hard it is to run a chat room and explain every trade and trade live at the same time ,
I did 2 free sesions and he made over $1000 every day so finally the last week I shadow traded him and I made the same but I only uses 2 contracts so I made half but he's calls we're clear and legit.
All he's tring to do is teach you how to trade I mean he even gives health advise and life advise . He's live every day , yes he talks alot but he is also a yOung guy , I like it gets u pumped for trading .
As with any product there will be people like Lloyd that don't like it and cause a problem so I wouldn't let him steer u away , just like Toyota with throttle sticking but they make a great car stilll.
Take a free coarse and look at his profit , he makes money for you that is all he works for is you .
I called global futures and spoke to his broker and he does trade live most of the time and that's all they could tell me on the phone . The fact if he trades live or sim dosent matter cause he trades for you
Just sick of all these people hating on someone tring to help us , yea his fee is a little high but it's negotiable and the auto trader makes that back in a month anyway , look at other sites , some guys charge thousands just for a strategy that might it work .
Anyway check it out for yourself but go into it with a positive head and see if it's right for you. I'm going to join this week and I'll keep u informed
Call global if u don't believe me not that it matters cause it says right in his disclaimer that there simulated , but he also tells u to paper trade for a few months before live trading to learn the system
It's funny how you guys hate on people making money , nobody forced you to trade
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@benrock, out of curiosity, why are you even searching for a trading room signal service? You've listed in your profile that you are a Master trader. Why would you want to copy or shadow someone else?
As a Master trader, surely you understand that saying something like "I made $1,000 two days in a row" means absolutely nothing. That is like saying "The system wins 90% of the time". We are missing a huge piece of information. A win percentage is worthless, without knowing what the risk/reward or total expectancy is. Just like saying you made profit two days in a row, without knowing the other days of the trading year and their results.
I call myself a master because I sit home for a living and trade so to me I'm ahead of the game , my house cars boat are paid for , I was interested in the autotrader that's why I was looking into his service .and I'm new to futures so it was a good way to learn .
And all I was doing was saying that I thought this guy was good to go , that's all
I used to have an eBay store and I had 4500 flawless transaction and 8 negitives and every day people focused on the bad , just bugs me how the little bad outways tons of good .
But no disrespect to u mike I will keep my mouth shut and leave it at that
Now that I think about it , ur right mike I'm not a master by far and I'll change my profile , I'm looking at it like if it works for me and I made avoid living then I mastered it but that's not what it mean , thanks for helping me out
And if my words are inconsistent cause I'm on my iPhone driving with 4 kids in the backround , lol
This is the link to the automated trading strategies blog offered by schooloftrade.com
You may already be aware of this so I apologize for the redundancy.
I want to make a couple points about this aspect of his business.
1. The blog has not been updated in months, several months, the only reason I can see for him not updating his blog periodically is because the automated strategies have been performing poorly.
2. The results shown are just screen shots of the Strategy Analyzer window following a strategy optimization. I could probably take the Sample MA Cross strategy from Ninjatrader and optimize it, then post similar results. Those results are completely unverifiable.
If you are looking to join for guidance, information, education, and insights that's one thing. I joined the SOT as a complete newbie to futures trading, coming from FX and equities I needed some guidance. And, as much as others contributing to this thread don't want to hear, I did learn quite a bit about the futures market as well as many little tidbits of information from him, that I would probably have not picked up from conventional sources. I Personally think that his course is overpriced and his system has holes in it that you can not see yet, but that's irrelevant.
My point is simple, if you are looking to join just for the automated strategies you may want to look into other vendors with more transparency.
thanks fibee ., you are right , im looking for something that probably dosent exist , cause if it did who would sell it .
they offered me advanced membership for $1800 so i figured it was good deal , but maybe i should rethink my plan , i did however make money with him on the demo ill give him that and i use his range trend line trading now and its pretty good . i dont know , i just wanted to let people know that i had a good experience with SOT and made money .
anyway happy easter fellow traders , sorry if i was rude to anyone
From reading these last posts, and viewing the YouTube video BM just posted here about live rooms, I wanted to give my 2-cents here, since I "used" to have a live room.
From reading these last posts on another "vendor and product review" thread, and viewing the YouTube video BM just posted there about live rooms, I wanted to give my 2-cents here, since I "used" to have a live room:
I too was a newb and …
The following user says Thank You to marker for this post:
If you want to find companies that specialize in automation I would take a look at some of the Ninjatrader partner presentations on their youtube page, or some of the webinars here.
A couple that I have bookmarked for future reference and consideration are EnigmaTrend, Zero-effort Trading, and EOTPro. All of these companies seem to specialize more in the automated field. I am not affiliated with any of these companies or have any experience using their software. They may all suck for all I know, but they seemed very interesting to me at first glance.
Another thing I want to point out about the SOT's automation:
I did not make money with his system. That includes his most current version the "JJ Flex Strategy" or the previous versions. His newest version seems to be an automated entry with a discretionary exit. Without going into too much detail I find this problematic for a bunch of reasons, and personally I kind of feel like it is a way for him to put the responsibility of the results you yield from the strategy, on your own discretionary exiting vs the accuracy of the strategy itself. I am not an expert in automation or programming so anyone who is reading this, by all means prove me wrong but I feel like any kind of discretion on your part essentially contradicts the very point of automation. This is very similar to the way that he avoids responsibility of loosing trade calls in the room. A losing trade becomes a good "learning experience".
Anyways, Happy Easter.
Fibbee
The following user says Thank You to Fibbee for this post:
no mike i have no contact or conection with school of trade , ill forward you my emails to them asking questions about service if needed . all i did was take a demo ,
.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
