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Best Order Flow software


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Best Order Flow software

 
 renvik 
Boston MA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Ninja/CQG
Trading: ES, ZB, CL
Posts: 259 since Apr 2010
Thanks Given: 344
Thanks Received: 119


Dxbtrader View Post
Hi, I wanted to know what is the best order flow software out there?
Best being defined as; easy to use, good support, having something that others don’t have.

I was looking at Michael Valtos OrderFlows but his reviews are horrendous and I’ve tried to contact him but never had the courtesy of a reply.

As I am new to futures day trading, I would be looking for a company that can provide some level of support.
What is the software people are using?
Pros and cons would be good.

Hi,
After reading all the responses here - what is your platform?

If you don't already use a platform, you need to at least try (for free) a couple like Ninja Trader, Sierra Charts .....

Check out what orderflow tools are offered (free of coast) before you take a plunge and buy something (OrderFlow is an overloaded term - you need to be more specific about what you are looking for).

I use NinjaTrader, you will get a free trial of whatever they offer, imo it is a good place to start.

So be pennywise, test first (for free) and pay later (only if you have to)!

I use order flow tools from another vendor ($$) and use only a subset of what NT has to offer.

Cheers,
renvik


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RHT34
Miami, Fl
 
Posts: 21 since Mar 2016
Thanks Given: 0
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Dxbtrader View Post
Hi, I wanted to know what is the best order flow software out there?
Best being defined as; easy to use, good support, having something that others don’t have.

I was looking at Michael Valtos OrderFlows but his reviews are horrendous and I’ve tried to contact him but never had the courtesy of a reply.

As I am new to futures day trading, I would be looking for a company that can provide some level of support.
What is the software people are using?
Pros and cons would be good.



Hi @Dxbtrader,

There are basically two ways to approach this. The footprint or the DOM. For the footprint, it's going to organize the data for you. For a new trader, that's going to be easier to learn. The DOM is more fluid and the numbers are not organized as in a footprint.

Either way, your decisions and edge will come from understanding what actually is happening with the numbers you see. In a very general sense, you're trying to see on a very short term basis if buyers or sellers are in control. You're not using these tools to find a trade you get in early and get out on the close. These trades will last minutes. But you need to understand the context. If you're using a footprint, look left. Look at your deltas. There's clearly much more to it but start with that.

For the DOM, Jigsaw is a good solution. Footprint, you really can use any of the options available. They're all going to give you basically the same information. Google footprint and look at images and see what your eyes are drawn to. It comes down to preference. Once you get the tools, you don't really need support unless it's not working for some reason. You might need training but support you shouldn't need once up and running.

Also, some gave you advice to go with John Grady. Keep in mind he primarily trades bonds. That may not suit your personality. I'd start with all the free stuff first before buying his course. There's a lot of good free information here. Watch YouTube videos. A lot may be BS on YouTube but you may pick up a nugget or two here or there. With John Grady's stuff, you have to understand what he's primarily trading. Trading bonds is like watching paint dry. Is that your personality? Or do you prefer a much faster market. ES is a good middle ground. NQ is much faster. You have to determine what works for you.

I would NOT buy anything from Axia. They give you access for 3 months. You're sending them $1,500 and don't even get access lifetime. They have a bunch of YouTube videos. That's as far as I'd go with that firm. Most other course you purchase are lifetime.

Lastly, keep in mind that traders making real money don't have time to sell you anything. They're too busy making money. The amount they receive from sales should be minuscule if they're actually profitable. The ones actually selling stuff probably tried their hand at trading. Didn't work and figured that there's an entire marketplace they can make money by "teaching". Ask yourself. If you're making $300,000/year trading or more, are you going to bother spending time to teach someone? Most likely not. Plus your methodology will lose edge as more people find out about it. Even if you wanted to "give back" or "help people" as some of these guys claim, you most likely wouldn't have the time. You'd be way too busy with your trading and making enough that it wouldn't be something you would venture into. So the guys selling these courses I'd be weary about. If you have specific questions on order flow, I'd start by posting them here. You're going to get a lot of good response.

You basically have to put in the time and effort. Screen time. Every night. Every weekend. Bar by bar. On replay and after a while you'll start to pick things up that resonate with you. The most successful traders all came up with their unique way of trading. They took bits and pieces of what they learned along the way and came up with their own way of trading.

Watch the footprint or DOM for a while. After enough screen time, you'll naturally start to pick certain things up. Come up with a setup that you see. Start with one thing. One setup. Make sure it resonates with your personality and become the master of that setup. Know it inside out. Later you can add more as you get good. Keep a journal and track the data so you have solid stats on your setup. How far does your setup move against you on average? Put your stops outside that. How far does it move in your favor on average. Use those stats for targets. What market conditions does your setup work in? What time of day does your setup work best?

Do all that on SIM/DEMO. Once you see consistency, start small with real money. And most importantly, treat it like a business. Far too many people treat this like a hobby. It's like any other professional job. Only the barriers to entry are non-existing for trading. Anyone can open an account and all of a sudden they're a "trader". Can you do that with anything else? If you bought and read a book on brain surgery over the weekend, what's the chances you'd be successful if you attempted that surgery Monday morning?

If you don't remember anything else, remember this. You have to learn how to lose money in trading before you can ever make money.

 
 binaryduke 
London UK
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart, NinjaTrader
Trading: ES, CL, GC, ZB
Posts: 34 since Jun 2015



RHT34 View Post
Hi @Dxbtrader,

There are basically two ways to approach this. The footprint or the DOM. For the footprint, it's going to organize the data for you. For a new trader, that's going to be easier to learn. The DOM is more fluid and the numbers are not organized as in a footprint.

Either way, your decisions and edge will come from understanding what actually is happening with the numbers you see. In a very general sense, you're trying to see on a very short term basis if buyers or sellers are in control. You're not using these tools to find a trade you get in early and get out on the close. These trades will last minutes. But you need to understand the context. If you're using a footprint, look left. Look at your deltas. There's clearly much more to it but start with that.

For the DOM, Jigsaw is a good solution. Footprint, you really can use any of the options available. They're all going to give you basically the same information. Google footprint and look at images and see what your eyes are drawn to. It comes down to preference. Once you get the tools, you don't really need support unless it's not working for some reason. You might need training but support you shouldn't need once up and running.

Also, some gave you advice to go with John Grady. Keep in mind he primarily trades bonds. That may not suit your personality. I'd start with all the free stuff first before buying his course. There's a lot of good free information here. Watch YouTube videos. A lot may be BS on YouTube but you may pick up a nugget or two here or there. With John Grady's stuff, you have to understand what he's primarily trading. Trading bonds is like watching paint dry. Is that your personality? Or do you prefer a much faster market. ES is a good middle ground. NQ is much faster. You have to determine what works for you.

I would NOT buy anything from Axia. They give you access for 3 months. You're sending them $1,500 and don't even get access lifetime. They have a bunch of YouTube videos. That's as far as I'd go with that firm. Most other course you purchase are lifetime.

Lastly, keep in mind that traders making real money don't have time to sell you anything. They're too busy making money. The amount they receive from sales should be minuscule if they're actually profitable. The ones actually selling stuff probably tried their hand at trading. Didn't work and figured that there's an entire marketplace they can make money by "teaching". Ask yourself. If you're making $300,000/year trading or more, are you going to bother spending time to teach someone? Most likely not. Plus your methodology will lose edge as more people find out about it. Even if you wanted to "give back" or "help people" as some of these guys claim, you most likely wouldn't have the time. You'd be way too busy with your trading and making enough that it wouldn't be something you would venture into. So the guys selling these courses I'd be weary about. If you have specific questions on order flow, I'd start by posting them here. You're going to get a lot of good response.

You basically have to put in the time and effort. Screen time. Every night. Every weekend. Bar by bar. On replay and after a while you'll start to pick things up that resonate with you. The most successful traders all came up with their unique way of trading. They took bits and pieces of what they learned along the way and came up with their own way of trading.

Watch the footprint or DOM for a while. After enough screen time, you'll naturally start to pick certain things up. Come up with a setup that you see. Start with one thing. One setup. Make sure it resonates with your personality and become the master of that setup. Know it inside out. Later you can add more as you get good. Keep a journal and track the data so you have solid stats on your setup. How far does your setup move against you on average? Put your stops outside that. How far does it move in your favor on average. Use those stats for targets. What market conditions does your setup work in? What time of day does your setup work best?

Do all that on SIM/DEMO. Once you see consistency, start small with real money. And most importantly, treat it like a business. Far too many people treat this like a hobby. It's like any other professional job. Only the barriers to entry are non-existing for trading. Anyone can open an account and all of a sudden they're a "trader". Can you do that with anything else? If you bought and read a book on brain surgery over the weekend, what's the chances you'd be successful if you attempted that surgery Monday morning?

If you don't remember anything else, remember this. You have to learn how to lose money in trading before you can ever make money.

This is good stuff. To build on this and provide some other points for consideration:

- what's in the DOM is intent
- what's traded and displayed on a footprint (or volume profile) is what's traded

There's good information to be gleaned from both. A footprint chart will display the raw data of what's traded. You need to be able to understand and interpret that information to highlight different conditions - aggression, absorption, exhaustion, etc. There are vendors that will interpret this traded volume information and provide indications of these conditions irrespective of whether you are displaying the raw data within a footprint chart. So 'what is the best order flow software' is a broad question. Do you want a powerful and insightful DOM? Do you want to add a footprint capability to an existing trading platform (or select a trading platform that can display footprint charts)? Do you want to more easily interpret the information in the DOM or traded volume by using indicators that can highlight specific supply and demand conditions that can be gleaned from this raw data?

"Lastly, keep in mind that traders making real money don't have time to sell you anything. They're too busy making money." is something I don't agree with. I believe once one has good understanding of how to make money trading, it's a waste of time trading manually. Sure, look at the screen and use this as a way to keep track of what's going on and develop new ideas for testing, etc., but a well designed automated trading system using successful and proven trading rules will execute far better than any trader. In my experience, traders that have an edge, perhaps by identifying systems and patterns and implementing them in tools end up being asked to help/share so there is an obvious progression to commercialising and monetising products and knowledge. I don't believe it's so binary that 'any software vendor/educator is not successful at trading so they are selling their snake oil to unwitting victims; no successful trader has the time to educate or sell their knowledge/system/tools because they are too busy trading'. Qualify who you are dealing with hard and assess how hard you are being sold. Learn to identify snake oil from transparent and logical information.

Follow me on Twitter
 
Dxbtrader
Dubai, UAE
 
Posts: 10 since Jun 2019
Thanks Given: 18
Thanks Received: 5

Thanks for this. I’ve found that I veer towards the footprint chart. I find it easier to understand quickly.

I like the idea and some of the stuff I’ve seen where support and resistance levels are shown but I’m just trying to figure out why that level and how strong is it, might sound stupid but it’s just a question I find myself asking.
I’m looking now for some good footprint software and where the delta is readable at a glance. Possibly even displayed in a percentage manner, but not sure that would be the right way to go.

 
 binaryduke 
London UK
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart, NinjaTrader
Trading: ES, CL, GC, ZB
Posts: 34 since Jun 2015

Sierra Chart is great because you can display multiple columns in the footprint. You can set up a footprint with bid x ask combined with a separate column of the numeric delta at each price level or have the delta at price displayed as a profile behind the bid x ask. This gives you pretty much everything you need to really understand what's going on. Of course you can see the bar delta (plus maximum, minimum, etc) but this is broad. Reading delta at price allows you to visualize absorption. Combine that with the bid x ask and you can see aggression and exhaustion.

Follow me on Twitter
 
 
jupiejupe's Avatar
 jupiejupe 
San Diego California
 
Experience: None
Platform: Home Grown IN Development
Broker: Broker InteractiveBrokers
Trading: CL
Posts: 146 since Apr 2011
Thanks Given: 87
Thanks Received: 68


binaryduke View Post
Do you want a powerful and insightful DOM?


I never used the DOM, but i kinda figured they are all the same, i have seen a few that have tried to incorporate profile along side of the DOM, but it is all the same, unless i am missing something.

so i ask, is there a DOM worth looking into?

"Learning to Trade: The Cost Of Tuition"
- a roadmap of my lessons learned as taught by the market
Follow me on Twitter
 
mattjack9708
Wisconsin
 
Posts: 28 since Sep 2019
Thanks Given: 8
Thanks Received: 7


RHT34 View Post
Hi @Dxbtrader,

There are basically two ways to approach this. The footprint or the DOM. For the footprint, it's going to organize the data for you. For a new trader, that's going to be easier to learn. The DOM is more fluid and the numbers are not organized as in a footprint.

Either way, your decisions and edge will come from understanding what actually is happening with the numbers you see. In a very general sense, you're trying to see on a very short term basis if buyers or sellers are in control. You're not using these tools to find a trade you get in early and get out on the close. These trades will last minutes. But you need to understand the context. If you're using a footprint, look left. Look at your deltas. There's clearly much more to it but start with that.

For the DOM, Jigsaw is a good solution. Footprint, you really can use any of the options available. They're all going to give you basically the same information. Google footprint and look at images and see what your eyes are drawn to. It comes down to preference. Once you get the tools, you don't really need support unless it's not working for some reason. You might need training but support you shouldn't need once up and running.

Also, some gave you advice to go with John Grady. Keep in mind he primarily trades bonds. That may not suit your personality. I'd start with all the free stuff first before buying his course. There's a lot of good free information here. Watch YouTube videos. A lot may be BS on YouTube but you may pick up a nugget or two here or there. With John Grady's stuff, you have to understand what he's primarily trading. Trading bonds is like watching paint dry. Is that your personality? Or do you prefer a much faster market. ES is a good middle ground. NQ is much faster. You have to determine what works for you.

I would NOT buy anything from Axia. They give you access for 3 months. You're sending them $1,500 and don't even get access lifetime. They have a bunch of YouTube videos. That's as far as I'd go with that firm. Most other course you purchase are lifetime.

Lastly, keep in mind that traders making real money don't have time to sell you anything. They're too busy making money. The amount they receive from sales should be minuscule if they're actually profitable. The ones actually selling stuff probably tried their hand at trading. Didn't work and figured that there's an entire marketplace they can make money by "teaching". Ask yourself. If you're making $300,000/year trading or more, are you going to bother spending time to teach someone? Most likely not. Plus your methodology will lose edge as more people find out about it. Even if you wanted to "give back" or "help people" as some of these guys claim, you most likely wouldn't have the time. You'd be way too busy with your trading and making enough that it wouldn't be something you would venture into. So the guys selling these courses I'd be weary about. If you have specific questions on order flow, I'd start by posting them here. You're going to get a lot of good response.

You basically have to put in the time and effort. Screen time. Every night. Every weekend. Bar by bar. On replay and after a while you'll start to pick things up that resonate with you. The most successful traders all came up with their unique way of trading. They took bits and pieces of what they learned along the way and came up with their own way of trading.

Watch the footprint or DOM for a while. After enough screen time, you'll naturally start to pick certain things up. Come up with a setup that you see. Start with one thing. One setup. Make sure it resonates with your personality and become the master of that setup. Know it inside out. Later you can add more as you get good. Keep a journal and track the data so you have solid stats on your setup. How far does your setup move against you on average? Put your stops outside that. How far does it move in your favor on average. Use those stats for targets. What market conditions does your setup work in? What time of day does your setup work best?

Do all that on SIM/DEMO. Once you see consistency, start small with real money. And most importantly, treat it like a business. Far too many people treat this like a hobby. It's like any other professional job. Only the barriers to entry are non-existing for trading. Anyone can open an account and all of a sudden they're a "trader". Can you do that with anything else? If you bought and read a book on brain surgery over the weekend, what's the chances you'd be successful if you attempted that surgery Monday morning?

If you don't remember anything else, remember this. You have to learn how to lose money in trading before you can ever make money.

Hello,

Thank you so much for the information and golden nugget. I am also interested in learning the footprint chart. I know you said watching on SIM might be a good way for it, but will there be another way to learn more about footprint? I am looking at AXIA Footprint course but as being said it is too expensive, I am not able to afford that..

Also, will there be any way to learn setting up footprint chart on Sierra? I am currently using Sierra chart.

 
mattjack9708
Wisconsin
 
Posts: 28 since Sep 2019
Thanks Given: 8
Thanks Received: 7


binaryduke View Post
This is good stuff. To build on this and provide some other points for consideration:

- what's in the DOM is intent
- what's traded and displayed on a footprint (or volume profile) is what's traded

There's good information to be gleaned from both. A footprint chart will display the raw data of what's traded. You need to be able to understand and interpret that information to highlight different conditions - aggression, absorption, exhaustion, etc. There are vendors that will interpret this traded volume information and provide indications of these conditions irrespective of whether you are displaying the raw data within a footprint chart. So 'what is the best order flow software' is a broad question. Do you want a powerful and insightful DOM? Do you want to add a footprint capability to an existing trading platform (or select a trading platform that can display footprint charts)? Do you want to more easily interpret the information in the DOM or traded volume by using indicators that can highlight specific supply and demand conditions that can be gleaned from this raw data?

"Lastly, keep in mind that traders making real money don't have time to sell you anything. They're too busy making money." is something I don't agree with. I believe once one has good understanding of how to make money trading, it's a waste of time trading manually. Sure, look at the screen and use this as a way to keep track of what's going on and develop new ideas for testing, etc., but a well designed automated trading system using successful and proven trading rules will execute far better than any trader. In my experience, traders that have an edge, perhaps by identifying systems and patterns and implementing them in tools end up being asked to help/share so there is an obvious progression to commercialising and monetising products and knowledge. I don't believe it's so binary that 'any software vendor/educator is not successful at trading so they are selling their snake oil to unwitting victims; no successful trader has the time to educate or sell their knowledge/system/tools because they are too busy trading'. Qualify who you are dealing with hard and assess how hard you are being sold. Learn to identify snake oil from transparent and logical information.

I totally agree that real traders that make money don't have time to sell anything. This has actually made beginners like me totally hard to learn trading.. The snake oils are everywhere and I find it hard to believe anybody lol. Do you have any education on Footprint chart that you have found not "a snake oil"?

 
RHT34
Miami, Fl
 
Posts: 21 since Mar 2016
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 71


mattjack9708 View Post
Hello,

Thank you so much for the information and golden nugget. I am also interested in learning the footprint chart. I know you said watching on SIM might be a good way for it, but will there be another way to learn more about footprint? I am looking at AXIA Footprint course but as being said it is too expensive, I am not able to afford that..

Also, will there be any way to learn setting up footprint chart on Sierra? I am currently using Sierra chart.



I absolutely would not recommend any course from Axia for someone in your situation. There are so many traders on this forum that will assist you and it's FREE. With the course, you pay 800 pounds which comes out to $1600 U.S. or so. You only get to keep the course for 3 months. For that much money, it's not even a lifetime course. I'm sorry but that's BS. If anything, they put out so many videos on YouTube. I'd watch those instead. I'd explore every free option first before considering paying anyone for anything. If those traders are really making $50,000 a day, do they really have time to make a video course? Do they really have time to make YouTube videos everyday and edit the videos? That takes hours alone. Why would someone making that much money waste their time trying to sell courses? Basically, explore every free option you have first.

Sierra Charts is very flexible. You're able to make the footprint look like Market Delta or any other way you want. It all depends on the information you want to see. The main thing is to keep it consistent. It really doesn't matter what your footprint looks like. You can look at a delta only footprint and create strategies or a completely different looking footprint and also create setups.

As far as learning the footprint, I'd recommend starting a thread here on Futures IO. With the responses you get and actually watching the footprint, you're much better off than paying for any course someone wants to peddle you.

 
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
Frequency: Daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 588 since May 2011
Thanks Given: 217
Thanks Received: 984



RHT34 View Post
I absolutely would not recommend any course from Axia for someone in your situation. There are so many traders on this forum that will assist you and it's FREE. With the course, you pay 800 pounds which comes out to $1600 U.S. or so. You only get to keep the course for 3 months. For that much money, it's not even a lifetime course. I'm sorry but that's BS. If anything, they put out so many videos on YouTube. I'd watch those instead. I'd explore every free option first before considering paying anyone for anything. If those traders are really making $50,000 a day, do they really have time to make a video course? Do they really have time to make YouTube videos everyday and edit the videos? That takes hours alone. Why would someone making that much money waste their time trying to sell courses? Basically, explore every free option you have first.

Sierra Charts is very flexible. You're able to make the footprint look like Market Delta or any other way you want. It all depends on the information you want to see. The main thing is to keep it consistent. It really doesn't matter what your footprint looks like. You can look at a delta only footprint and create strategies or a completely different looking footprint and also create setups.

As far as learning the footprint, I'd recommend starting a thread here on Futures IO. With the responses you get and actually watching the footprint, you're much better off than paying for any course someone wants to peddle you.

I agree 100%. Just about everything you need is right here on this website. The amount of information that has been accumulated over the years is extraordinary (probably should keep my mouth shut or Big Mike might start charging!).
The only other course you might consider is John Grady's complete course - his live webinars are invaluable. I've done them twice.

I watched several of Axia's videos and read through their website. It looks like they use more traditional technical analysis than DOM reading. Technical analysis is something you shouldn't have to pay too much for. There's a lot of good books and websites where the information is totally free. In the end, it's up to you to figure out how you want to use order flow. The Jigsaw platform is the best. Their educational material - not so good.

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