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Trade dispute


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Trade dispute

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  #1 (permalink)
columbus OH/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TOS
Broker: TOS
Trading: ES TF NQ, CL NG
 
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Posts: 187 since Mar 2013
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Need advice.

Few days ago, I was trading a future contract. Put sell order. Order was submitted but I never got fill acknowledgement.
I tried to cancel the trade few times in platform but got error. So, I was in limbo.
The trade was nicely positive first but I couldn't close it because not open in trading platform; the trade then went negative then kept going against me to badly negative and I still couldn't close it.

I called brokerage call support right away and waited more than 1 hour to be able to talk to someone. After few minutes, they "fixed" something and the trade was now live with a bad loss.

I called again and they offer a very very small compensation for trade (10% loss).

I'm going to dispute trade in writing, and thinking of filing complaint with FINRA.

I was wondering if anyone experienced this kind of issue before, and what they did?

Any recommendations or suggestions?

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marcopolo1 View Post
Need advice.

Few days ago, I was trading a future contract. Put sell order. Order was submitted but I never got fill acknowledgement.
I tried to cancel the trade few times in platform but got error. So, I was in limbo.
The trade was nicely positive first but I couldn't close it because not open in trading platform; the trade then went negative then kept going against me to badly negative and I still couldn't close it.

I called brokerage call support right away and waited more than 1 hour to be able to talk to someone. After few minutes, they "fixed" something and the trade was now live with a bad loss.

I'm going to dispute trade in writing, and thinking of filing complaint with FINRA.

I was wondering if anyone experienced this kind of issue before, and what they did?

Any recommendations or suggestions?

In cases like that, I always call the Trade Desk immediately. Maybe that is who you called, although "brokerage support" might have been tech support - a different set of people. You should never have to wait an hour to talk to the Trade Desk.

You can certainly try filing a complaint, but there is usually a lot of legalese in your agreement where the broker says they are not responsible for electronic platform screwups. They will use that in their defense, and it typically holds up.

I'd personally try to talk to a higher up at broker first, see if they will make it right. If not, maybe a complaint is the way to go.

Good Luck!

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  #4 (permalink)
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marcopolo1 View Post
Need advice.

Few days ago, I was trading a future contract. Put sell order. Order was submitted but I never got fill acknowledgement.
I tried to cancel the trade few times in platform but got error. So, I was in limbo.
The trade was nicely positive first but I couldn't close it because not open in trading platform; the trade then went negative then kept going against me to badly negative and I still couldn't close it.

I called brokerage call support right away and waited more than 1 hour to be able to talk to someone. After few minutes, they "fixed" something and the trade was now live with a bad loss.

I called again and they offer a very very small compensation for trade (10% loss).

I'm going to dispute trade in writing, and thinking of filing complaint with FINRA.

I was wondering if anyone experienced this kind of issue before, and what they did?

Any recommendations or suggestions?

Kevin is right - always have your phone ready with the trade desk number on speed dial. The second something goes wrong, call. I had a problem with the NT7 DOM - I would hit close and it would reverse the trade. Absolutely nothing you can do about it because the record shows I hit a reverse. But at least if you have the trade desk on speed dial, you can call immediately and make sure your trades are in order.

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  #5 (permalink)
Indianapolis, IN USA
 
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Trading: ES CL ZB
 
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marcopolo1 View Post
Need advice.

Few days ago, I was trading a future contract. Put sell order. Order was submitted but I never got fill acknowledgement.
I tried to cancel the trade few times in platform but got error. So, I was in limbo.
The trade was nicely positive first but I couldn't close it because not open in trading platform; the trade then went negative then kept going against me to badly negative and I still couldn't close it.

I called brokerage call support right away and waited more than 1 hour to be able to talk to someone. After few minutes, they "fixed" something and the trade was now live with a bad loss.

I called again and they offer a very very small compensation for trade (10% loss).

I'm going to dispute trade in writing, and thinking of filing complaint with FINRA.

I was wondering if anyone experienced this kind of issue before, and what they did?

Any recommendations or suggestions?

Your profile says you're using TOS. I have used TOS for a long time - and have never had to call the trade desk subsequent to the TD Ameritrade acquisition. That said, I would not trade with ANY brokerage firm where it takes an hour to get through to the trade desk. The trade desk number should be answered promptly, and if it takes more than 5 minutes to be talking with a broker that can see and adjust your open positions, it's time to change brokers. In the future, you might also consider some type of redundant access to your trading account. For example, if you cannot close the trade via your trading platform, can you log in through their website or through their mobile application to close your position? TOS offers account access via all 3 modalities. If you happen to be using a brokerage that uses a separate clearing firm (unlike TDA), you might be able to access your account through the clearing firm website as well.

Disputing the trade in writing is a good idea, but the broker will most likely not have legal obligation to correct your trade. If they can determine the problem was clearly on their end, they might make it right. In reality, there are so many variables in electronic trading it's easy to ascribe any issues as "someone else's problem."

Much easier said than done, especially when something is not right, but taking screen shots of your efforts to access your account by as many modalities as possible and keeping a phone log of your broker calls and their duration might be helpful going forward.

Sorry you had this problem and I hope you are able to get it resolved to your satisfaction.

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  #6 (permalink)
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phantomtrader View Post
I would hit close and it would reverse the trade. Absolutely nothing you can do about it because the record shows I hit a reverse.

Well, you could record a video of the trade - that would prove to the vendor that you acted correctly. Not saying it's a life saver but if you had to enter in a dispute it would serve as supporting evidence.

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  #7 (permalink)
columbus OH/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TOS
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Trading: ES TF NQ, CL NG
 
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Posts: 187 since Mar 2013
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I'm glad to report that a broker manager contacted me and informed me they issued a trade adjustment for the loss because I'm a great customer and this wasn't my fault but neither their. Frankly, it's a big relief because this was quite a significant loss.

The explanation was that "CQG went down".

Thanks all for your support and help -)

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marcopolo1 View Post
I'm glad to report that a broker manager contacted me and informed me they issued a trade adjustment for the loss because I'm a great customer and this wasn't my fault but neither their. Frankly, it's a big relief because this was quite a significant loss.

The explanation was that "CQG went down".

Thanks all for your support and help -)

WOW, I am impressed. Care to say which broker (if it is not TOS, like your profile says)? This is how customers should be treated.

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  #9 (permalink)
columbus OH/USA
 
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kevinkdog View Post
WOW, I am impressed. Care to say which broker (if it is not TOS, like your profile says)? This is how customers should be treated.

Sure, broker is TOS/TDAMERITRADE.

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xplorer View Post
Well, you could record a video of the trade - that would prove to the vendor that you acted correctly. Not saying it's a life saver but if you had to enter in a dispute it would serve as supporting evidence.

It's a random event and I'm trading a live account. Don't have time during a live trade to make a video!

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  #11 (permalink)
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marcopolo1 View Post
Need advice.

Few days ago, I was trading a future contract. Put sell order. Order was submitted but I never got fill acknowledgement.
I tried to cancel the trade few times in platform but got error. So, I was in limbo.
The trade was nicely positive first but I couldn't close it because not open in trading platform; the trade then went negative then kept going against me to badly negative and I still couldn't close it.

I called brokerage call support right away and waited more than 1 hour to be able to talk to someone. After few minutes, they "fixed" something and the trade was now live with a bad loss.

I called again and they offer a very very small compensation for trade (10% loss).

I'm going to dispute trade in writing, and thinking of filing complaint with FINRA.

I was wondering if anyone experienced this kind of issue before, and what they did?

Any recommendations or suggestions?

Glad to see your issue was resolved. Here's what you should do next time.

You should have an email exchange with your broker to get the actual FIX client order, exchange-assigned order ID, creation and execution time. They are required to have this by regulation. This allows you to confirm with CME GCC what happened to your trade.

If CQG gives you any of these fields directly, you should not have wasted time with your broker and should've quickly contacted CME GCC before reaching out to your broker, since the exchange has the final say on the state of your trade.

If your broker doesn't have a record or CME's record doesn't match your broker's, then you have a clearer evidence that they were negligent.

If their records match, then the issue lies with your broker's software vendor (CQG). In which case it could either be client-side (your desktop application malfunctioned as a result of a bug) or server-side (your broker's hosted CQG application had a bug). Then this depends on whether your broker or you have indemnity terms in your software license agreement(s). Often a software vendor will take no responsibility for damages incurred on your part, so it depends on the extent of damages that they're responsible for according to the contract. You can still sue them regardless of what the contract says, of course.

If the issue lies with your FCM/IB, you should direct your dispute to the NFA, not FINRA. If the issue lies with your software vendor and your broker refuses to back you up, you can try use the NFA to pressure your broker into taking more action against the software vendor.

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  #12 (permalink)
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phantomtrader View Post
It's a random event and I'm trading a live account. Don't have time during a live trade to make a video!

I too am trading a live account. I just press Record before I enter the trade.

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  #13 (permalink)
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artemiso View Post
Glad to see your issue was resolved. Here's what you should do next time.

You should have an email exchange with your broker to get the actual FIX client order, exchange-assigned order ID, creation and execution time. They are required to have this by regulation. This allows you to confirm with CME GCC what happened to your trade.

If CQG gives you any of these fields directly, you should not have wasted time with your broker and should've quickly contacted CME GCC before reaching out to your broker, since the exchange has the final say on the state of your trade.

If your broker doesn't have a record or CME's record doesn't match your broker's, then you have a clearer evidence that they were negligent.

If their records match, then the issue lies with your broker's software vendor (CQG). In which case it could either be client-side (your desktop application malfunctioned as a result of a bug) or server-side (your broker's hosted CQG application had a bug). Then this depends on whether your broker or you have indemnity terms in your software license agreement(s). Often a software vendor will take no responsibility for damages incurred on your part, so it depends on the extent of damages that they're responsible for according to the contract. You can still sue them regardless of what the contract says, of course.

If the issue lies with your FCM/IB, you should direct your dispute to the NFA, not FINRA. If the issue lies with your software vendor and your broker refuses to back you up, you can try use the NFA to pressure your broker into taking more action against the software vendor.

Very useful, thanks artemiso.

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