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Warrior Trading - FTC scam alert


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Warrior Trading - FTC scam alert

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  #41 (permalink)
abev
seattle washington
 
 
Posts: 41 since Feb 2019
Thanks: 7 given, 19 received

I'll post my opinion on a few of the thoughts already posted and leave it at that. There's little way of proving some things and some of the terms in the FTC complaint are rather ... vague. My two years of experience in WT is very positive. So here's a bit of pushback on some of the posts above from my own experience.

- Full disclosure; I am not a momentum trader so I rarely watched Ross after the first six months. During that time and whenever I do drop in on one of his live sessions I hear the following.
- Ross constantly says "Don't follow me. You will fail if you attempt to follow me or any other trader." "If you here me call out my order, you have already missed the trade."
- To say that Ross is "front running" is, imho, bs. If Ross is, as he says he is, actually hitting a hot key to buy or sell according to his read on the tape, he is going to hit the key as he starts to talk and by the time he has called the order, by the time a viewer has processed the call out, the opportunity will have passed for entering or exiting. If the 420 crowd thinks those statements don't apply to them and then blow up their account -- I can only shrug.

- Expectations from taking the classes and from the instructions written and from the mentors/instructors are: A student will develop a strategy and prove that strategy in the simulator over the course of one to three months of positive trading metrics before committing to trading a live account.

- Is Ross trading a real account? I think he is but it's not something that can be proven to the doubters' satisfaction so it's a moot point.

- Trading programs. Still puzzled over exactly what they mean by that considering my experience.
- I have never seen a "trading program" on the WT site so I am puzzled by the FTC's definition of a trading program. I'm a coder so perhaps my definition is too ethnocentric.
- The emphasis throughout all the classes and Q&A sessions I have attended (about 60% or them -- there's hundreds of hours of classes and sessions) the emphasis is for each student to create their own strategy and while examples are given, and several of the mentor/instructors go over their strategies in classes, those examples and are to illustrate how to create one's own strategy.

And frankly, have you ever found you can simply take over another person's strategy? Successfully? If you could, then I'd think you'd code it and just let it run while you <fill in your favorite pass time>. I feel that successful day or swing trading requires a hands on approach, an skilled individual's take on the movements in the market. It is a skill that can be learned but a strategy will always remain most successful in the hands of the creator of that strategy.

- I found the classes to be excellent and I still review them on a regular basis. Since WT is in the technical trading camp, the classes are primarily on charting with a bit of tape reading, candle formations, and popular indicators.

- I have developed my own strategy using the examples from three of the mentor/instructors and currently (the past 150 trades since I have put the strategy into play) my strategy has a weekly win rate of 75-85% and a weekly profit factor of 1.54 - 2.20. I'll be interested to see how it does over the next 500 trades and over the different markets but I consider that to be a successfully spent money on WT.

That's it. I doubt that I will revisit this thread as all I can do is voice my experience and opinions and I've been more than verbose and detailed here -- no reason to go crazy over it.

Oh!! and the $3M fine. Yeah it is the cost of doing business, unfortunately. As you might expect if you have read the above, I find many of the statements made in the complaint to be at least as misleading as they claim Ross to be. lol - just my opinion.

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  #42 (permalink)
 ThemBones 
Chattanooga, TN
 
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abev View Post
I'll post my opinion on a few of the thoughts already posted and leave it at that. There's little way of proving some things and some of the terms in the FTC complaint are rather ... vague. My two years of experience in WT is very positive. So here's a bit of pushback on some of the posts above from my own experience.

- Full disclosure; I am not a momentum trader so I rarely watched Ross after the first six months. During that time and whenever I do drop in on one of his live sessions I hear the following.
- To say that Ross is "front running" is, imho, bs. If Ross is, as he says he is, actually hitting a hot key to buy or sell according to his read on the tape, there is no way that anyone could expect to follow him. He is going to hit the key as he starts to talk and by the time he has called the order, the opportunity will have passed for entering or exiting.
- Ross constantly says "Don't follow me. You will fail if you attempt to follow me or any other trader." "If you here me call out my order, you have already missed the trade." If the 420 crowd thinks those statements don't apply to them and then blow up their account -- I can only shrug.

- Expectations from taking the classes and from the instructions written and from the mentors/instructors is: A student will develop a strategy and prove that strategy in the simulator over the course of one to three months of positive trading metrics before committing to trading a live account.

- Is Ross trading a real account? I think he is but it's not something that can be proven to the doubters' satisfaction so it's a moot point.

- Trading programs. Still puzzled over exactly what they mean by that considering my experience.
- I have never seen a "trading program" on the WT site so I am puzzled by the FTC's definition of a trading program. I'm a coder so perhaps my definition is too ethnocentric.
- The emphasis throughout all the classes and Q&A sessions I have attended (about 60% or them -- there's hundreds of hours of classes and sessions) the emphasis is for each student to create their own strategy and while examples are given, and several of the mentor/instructors go over their strategies in classes, those examples and are to illustrate how to create one's own strategy.

And frankly, have you ever found you can simply take over another person's strategy? Successfully? If you could, then I'd think you'd code it and just let it run while you <fill in your favorite pass time>. I feel that successful day or swing trading requires a hands on approach, an skilled individual's take on the movements in the market. It is a skill that can be learned but a strategy will always remain most successful in the hands of the creator of that strategy.

- I found the classes to be excellent and I still review them on a regular basis. Since WT is in the technical trading camp, the classes are primarily on charting with a bit of tape reading, candle formations, and popular indicators.

- I have developed my own strategy using the examples from three of the mentor/instructors and currently (the past 150 trades since I have put the strategy into play) my strategy has a weekly win rate of 75-85% and a weekly profit factor of 1.54 - 2.20. I'll be interested to see how it does over the next 500 trades and over the different markets but I consider that to be a successfully spent money on WT.

That's it. I doubt that I will revisit this thread as all I can do is voice my experience and opinions and I've been more than verbose and detailed here -- no reason to go crazy over it.

Oh!! and the $3M fine. Yeah it is the cost of doing business, unfortunately. As you might expect if you have read the above, I find many of the statements made in the complaint to be at least as misleading as they claim Ross to be. lol - just my opinion.

I disagree, and I'm coming from a belief the Warrior Trading Program was actually a good one; I learned a lot in a structured manner, and I didn't walk away upset at Ross for me not making a million dollars; that's up to me; and I came away profitable when I ended the classes. I got as much as I could out of it, and moved on.

Whether he is frontrunning or not (and I claim he is, whether it is an intention or not; intentions don't matter), that is what just about anyone holding a trading group is doing unless they are using limit orders on entry and swearing to God (or Batman) they will not get in before the limit order. I don't fault anyone for gathering a large group of traders, if you're all staring at 1 or 2 stocks the leader is discussing, the leader should tell the students every class "I'm going to take this trade, don't follow me, and if you do follow me, thank you for taking the other side of my trade." No one will do that. And most members aren't aware this is happening due to the 'newbie' status. I wasn't. Some of this is on the students to know what they are getting into, however.


Cost of doing business. Ludicrous. A fine in this case is corruption. If something wrong is being done (and I'm not claiming anything wrong has been done), you give back everything you made and then some. When you rob a bank of $10 million, but only have to give back $3 million, nothing is stopping you and everyone else watching the lack of consequences from robbing 1000 more banks.

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  #43 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
Posts: 189 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 314 given, 389 received



abev View Post
I'll post my opinion on a few of the thoughts already posted and leave it at that. There's little way of proving some things and some of the terms in the FTC complaint are rather ... vague. My two years of experience in WT is very positive. So here's a bit of pushback on some of the posts above from my own experience.

- Full disclosure; I am not a momentum trader so I rarely watched Ross after the first six months. During that time and whenever I do drop in on one of his live sessions I hear the following.
- Ross constantly says "Don't follow me. You will fail if you attempt to follow me or any other trader." "If you here me call out my order, you have already missed the trade."
- To say that Ross is "front running" is, imho, bs. If Ross is, as he says he is, actually hitting a hot key to buy or sell according to his read on the tape, he is going to hit the key as he starts to talk and by the time he has called the order, by the time a viewer has processed the call out, the opportunity will have passed for entering or exiting. If the 420 crowd thinks those statements don't apply to them and then blow up their account -- I can only shrug.

- Expectations from taking the classes and from the instructions written and from the mentors/instructors are: A student will develop a strategy and prove that strategy in the simulator over the course of one to three months of positive trading metrics before committing to trading a live account.

- Is Ross trading a real account? I think he is but it's not something that can be proven to the doubters' satisfaction so it's a moot point.

- Trading programs. Still puzzled over exactly what they mean by that considering my experience.
- I have never seen a "trading program" on the WT site so I am puzzled by the FTC's definition of a trading program. I'm a coder so perhaps my definition is too ethnocentric.
- The emphasis throughout all the classes and Q&A sessions I have attended (about 60% or them -- there's hundreds of hours of classes and sessions) the emphasis is for each student to create their own strategy and while examples are given, and several of the mentor/instructors go over their strategies in classes, those examples and are to illustrate how to create one's own strategy.

And frankly, have you ever found you can simply take over another person's strategy? Successfully? If you could, then I'd think you'd code it and just let it run while you <fill in your favorite pass time>. I feel that successful day or swing trading requires a hands on approach, an skilled individual's take on the movements in the market. It is a skill that can be learned but a strategy will always remain most successful in the hands of the creator of that strategy.

- I found the classes to be excellent and I still review them on a regular basis. Since WT is in the technical trading camp, the classes are primarily on charting with a bit of tape reading, candle formations, and popular indicators.

- I have developed my own strategy using the examples from three of the mentor/instructors and currently (the past 150 trades since I have put the strategy into play) my strategy has a weekly win rate of 75-85% and a weekly profit factor of 1.54 - 2.20. I'll be interested to see how it does over the next 500 trades and over the different markets but I consider that to be a successfully spent money on WT.

That's it. I doubt that I will revisit this thread as all I can do is voice my experience and opinions and I've been more than verbose and detailed here -- no reason to go crazy over it.

Oh!! and the $3M fine. Yeah it is the cost of doing business, unfortunately. As you might expect if you have read the above, I find many of the statements made in the complaint to be at least as misleading as they claim Ross to be. lol - just my opinion.

Couldn't have made better statements myself.

The question is "why" the attack on Ross?

Before blaming someone else for one's failures, he/she should look in the mirror. "Did I do stupid trading, put on too much risk, not follow my own rules, mismanage my money etc. etc.?

This judgement appears to be appeasement to a bunch of squeaky wheels. I would be surprised if Ross does not lawyer up and take the action to court.

Often, young traders want to blame someone else for their lack of success/loss of capital. No one forces them to spend thousands on courses. They often want to get rich quick. And when they don't, and then take a large hit, it stings! "Surely, it has to be someone else's fault, heh?"

I hope Ross comes out swinging!

Signed: an ol' Burien boy from the days of Gov. Rosellini

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  #44 (permalink)
 chipwitch 
Nashville, TN
 
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redbarntrades View Post
Couldn't have made better statements myself.

The question is "why" the attack on Ross?

Before blaming someone else for one's failures, he/she should look in the mirror. "Did I do stupid trading, put on too much risk, not follow my own rules, mismanage my money etc. etc.?

This judgement appears to be appeasement to a bunch of squeaky wheels. I would be surprised if Ross does not lawyer up and take the action to court.

This happens at all levels of retail trading. It is quite common for a client of even the biggest, most conservative, litigation averse/protected, compliance rich companies on Wall St to sue for losses even if the client is clearly at fault. This is why most, if not all brokerages, and I imagine even WT, have an arbitration condition in their contracts. Arbitration often has a conflict of interest with the firm, so the clients usually lose. I don't think civil lawsuits have any teeth as a condition of the arbitration clause, but I'm not certain on that point.

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  #45 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
Posts: 189 since Sep 2019
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chipwitch View Post
This happens at all levels of retail trading. It is quite common for a client of even the biggest, most conservative, litigation averse/protected, compliance rich companies on Wall St to sue for losses even if the client is clearly at fault. This is why most, if not all brokerages, and I imagine even WT, have an arbitration condition in their contracts. Arbitration often has a conflict of interest with the firm, so the clients usually lose. I don't think civil lawsuits have any teeth as a condition of the arbitration clause, but I'm not certain on that point.

Sounds like you have experience in that realm. Fortunately, in the 38 years that I was a general contractor/home builder, I never had to deal with liens, arbitration, mediation nor a court summons in regards to my business.

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  #46 (permalink)
 chipwitch 
Nashville, TN
 
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redbarntrades View Post
Sounds like you have experience in that realm. Fortunately, in the 38 years that I was a general contractor/home builder, I never had to deal with liens, arbitration, mediation nor a court summons in regards to my business.

I have several close friends going back 35 years who work in the business for big retail firms. That is all. My own family, dad, grandfather, 3 or 4 uncles and a cousin here or there that worked in construction. Nobody ever sued. I've never been sued or done the suing. There is a certain undesirable element that utilizes the civil court system as a source of income as a matter of course.

<eta> Plus, every trading account I've ever opened... there has always been an arbitration clause. I believe the exchanges and data providers do as well. Do you read your applications? I do!

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  #47 (permalink)
SteveH
Orlando, Florida, USA
 
 
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Can a 1000+ people watching you trade a low float stock give you some alpha in your trading? Of course it can.

There are times when he adds to a trade 4-5 times within a 20 cent range. This incites FOMO into those of lesser emotional discipline (i.e., most who are watching) to get onboard. After all, if a guy of his experience is adding that much in such a short amount of time and value, surely the price is odds-on to go higher, right? There's your alpha. A room of that size with 1000+ people can generate enough shares traded in a low float stock to give the upside enough room for a front-runner to make 10-20 cents at a go (where each add-on he makes is encouraging the room to either add-on or at least not sell their position into his). I would put Ross in the same category as Tim Sykes. The reason they take quick profits is obvious. You never want your room to form headwinds for your position(s).

If you made 10's of millions off of your trading biz, as stated in the facts of the complaint, what is a 3 million dollar penalty going to do to your biz other than to say every other sentence going forward that "trading is risky, my results are not typical, I cannot promise you positive results"? It's like you brought in a consultant to tell you what you have to do to continue making 10's of millions going forward for a one-time fee of 3 million.

As far as Ross being a nice guy, making everyone feel good about themselves, no matter how good they are at trading...well, how would you act to bring in the most amount of money possible?

Do I think his trades are real? Of course they are. I don't think Lightspeed wants to be part of a fraud lawsuit as they know the actual truth and know that Ross states all the time he is in a live account.

I watch Ross's pre-market "show" for entertainment purposes. It's a lesson in crowd psychology. Nothing more. Could you stay emotionally calm if your account went from 20K up on the morning to 8K down with the knowledge that your trading education biz rakes in 10+ mil gross a year? (Yep!) The best way to put it is that Ross trades as advertisement/side hustle for the benefit of his education biz, the BIG money-making operation in all of this.

A beginner would be better off trading the Dow micro e-mini contract, 1 contract per trade, simulation at first, and then, after a decent duration of proven positive trading, go ahead and risk losing a 6K amount...that 6K which would have gone into Ross's risk-free pocket on top of the losses which occur in addition to that trading of low float sub-$5 stocks. There's more time to make a decision on the e-minis given how well they range. The financial futures are always volatile these days, no "scanning" required.

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  #48 (permalink)
 Zogger99 
Kannapolis, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
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I was thinking of some Tim Sykes videos where he talks about some of his students in his trading room that got to know his style so well, they were calling out moves before he put in the order.


SteveH View Post
Can a 1000+ people watching you trade a low float stock give you some alpha in your trading? Of course it can.

There are times when he adds to a trade 4-5 times within a 20 cent range. This incites FOMO into those of lesser emotional discipline (i.e., most who are watching) to get onboard. After all, if a guy of his experience is adding that much in such a short amount of time and value, surely the price is odds-on to go higher, right? There's your alpha. A room of that size with 1000+ people can generate enough shares traded in a low float stock to give the upside enough room for a front-runner to make 10-20 cents at a go (where each add-on he makes is encouraging the room to either add-on or at least not sell their position into his). I would put Ross in the same category as Tim Sykes. The reason they take quick profits is obvious. You never want your room to form headwinds for your position(s).

If you made 10's of millions off of your trading biz, as stated in the facts of the complaint, what is a 3 million dollar penalty going to do to your biz other than to say every other sentence going forward that "trading is risky, my results are not typical, I cannot promise you positive results"? It's like you brought in a consultant to tell you what you have to do to continue making 10's of millions going forward for a one-time fee of 3 million.

As far as Ross being a nice guy, making everyone feel good about themselves, no matter how good they are at trading...well, how would you act to bring in the most amount of money possible?

Do I think his trades are real? Of course they are. I don't think Lightspeed wants to be part of a fraud lawsuit as they know the actual truth and know that Ross states all the time he is in a live account.

I watch Ross's pre-market "show" for entertainment purposes. It's a lesson in crowd psychology. Nothing more. Could you stay emotionally calm if your account went from 20K up on the morning to 8K down with the knowledge that your trading education biz rakes in 10+ mil gross a year? (Yep!) The best way to put it is that Ross trades as advertisement/side hustle for the benefit of his education biz, the BIG money-making operation in all of this.

A beginner would be better off trading the Dow micro e-mini contract, 1 contract per trade, simulation at first, and then, after a decent duration of proven positive trading, go ahead and risk losing a 6K amount...that 6K which would have gone into Ross's risk-free pocket on top of the losses which occur in addition to that trading of low float sub-$5 stocks. There's more time to make a decision on the e-minis given how well they range. The financial futures are always volatile these days, no "scanning" required.


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  #49 (permalink)
 iq200 
London, UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
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This guy claims to have done a statistical analysis on Cameron's published results (assuming they are true) and says his results are statistically valid. Nevertheless, the methodology seems quite interesting.

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Shaban
Turin + Italy
 
 
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