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Anton Kreil Annihilates Retail Brokers and "Trading Educators"


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Anton Kreil Annihilates Retail Brokers and "Trading Educators"

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  #1 (permalink)
 NJAMC 
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Great video for retail traders to give some understanding of what you are up against.


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NJAMC View Post
Great video for retail traders to give some understanding of what you are up against.


I noticed Anton a year back when my friend asked me about him. He gave some good info, "the honest" sell in the early days to set him apart. I believe he started as the project assistant/supervisor on Million dollar traders? I guess he liked the movie "Crazy People". He seems to ignore futures trading completely as a topic of discussion which is good as it must mean it works I think it is amusing how he kinda says you can't make real money in futures as there are only a few dozen liquid markets.. yeah..

Of course it is important to keep separate retail students from budding "pros" trading other people's money when watching his stuff. A lot of what he says is pitched to pro students who presumably would get industry qualified.

I have seen a few hours of his lectures and what is quite noticeable is he has frank discussions about scammers, broker shills etc. who portray grand lifestyles to bait students & investors but does exactly the same (bigger actually) himself.
He's in Singapore, London, Trump plaza or whatever all on business class flights and great views and pools.

It will just be a matter of value for money which would be determined by success but I smell a lot of masterful gaslighting with this guy. He's a salesman for sure but some interesting tidbits.. It might be interesting to hear from someone who has done a course, maybe from a couple of years back so they have perspective. I guess these people are not going to be FIO forum level of course.

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 Neo1 
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Anton Kreil

"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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cotradetech
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He talks about conflict of interest, and how to eliminate it when approaching your business, for this i have huge respect for him.

He is not selling his dream, and so him being in places we can't afford doesn't mean we should be talking him down. Let's be unbiased and get to a level where he is, before we open our mouth.


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He talks about conflict of interest, and how to eliminate it when approaching your business, for this i have huge respect for him.

He is not selling his dream, and so him being in places we can't afford doesn't mean we should be talking him down. Let's be unbiased and get to a level where he is, before we open our mouth.

"He is not selling a dream".. with respect to you, yes, yes he is I must say I believe he is. He is selling a dream, maybe a reality for some who are true A+ students and do the work, if his courses are of good quality and not shallow film-flam. He also wants people to invest with him & trade through his service so it is not all about education, he is selling investment services in parallel.

I was discussing this with Fenchurch yesterday (we trade together, she is flying home today) and whether one should look a gift-horse too closely in the mouth as the expression goes. Is it just tearing things down for no benefit or should foxes be exposed.. Where is the line drawn between a loyal dog/friend, a fox and a dangerous wolf?

Anton Kreil has given many lectures to finance university students about the real salaries and conditions working for investment banks / funds that seem refreshingly honest without question. He talks convincingly about being independent and making your own opportunities, not falling into the conventional market or employment traps etc. etc. He seems to speak a lot of truth. I'd prefer to hear the Q&A after a lecture also but it was not provided. He is of course also selling the shortcut to success for a few thousand bucks, exactly in the retail sweet spot.

As a non industry expert (who can trade retail futures and can afford first/business class flights and five star hotels, as can Fenchurch) his real personality/ethics are the quandary, it would be nice to find a (mostly) good guy. He has chosen to make a living leveraging a little fame he got from a role in "Million Dollar Traders" where they attempt to replicate the Turtles, so some selling the dream is inevitable. It's in the title.

"The enemy of the good are the perfect" and Fenchurch understand this. I understand what she referred to about "gas-lighters" though, people who try to control others through manipulation (making it seem like they have no options but to look to the gas-lighter himself as the savior perhaps?) and they will often accuse others of behaviors that they are engaged in themselves. This is not a one is right because the other is wrong thing/fallacy, typically both behaviors are wrong.

Going on too much but one generally sees Anton in lecture halls criticising lifestyle pitch educators/marketers (correctly) or in exotic destinations all around the world in his Institute of Trading's "Make Me a Trader" series e.g.
I think that is fair to mention as it is very blatant.

Tim Sykes parallels are obvious and Anton must be well aware of this however as Fenchurch said, reading the message in context is important. Who is Anton speaking to, who is his real intended audience? Budding professional traders or naive retail who understand 10% of what he is saying but sense he tells the truth and flock to him?

I believe that only industry veterans can likely tell if Anton is an anti-gaslighting industry rebel or a cynical sales man. As an aside this is an interesting article https://rpseawright.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/financial-gaslighting/ . I guess if you look at his courses and they are of low quality/for retail etc. that might be a clue?

Perhaps we can look at things he says and validate to be fair to him?

Is he grossly misstating and exaggerating here for effect or am I as a retail level trader getting the context wrong? (I probably am).
about algo trading/shorter time trading being basically impossible unless your an exceptionally genius programmer?

I'm sure @NJAMC is the perfect person to advise

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 Grantx 
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Rory View Post
I believe that only industry veterans can likely tell if Anton is an anti-gaslighting industry rebel or a cynical sales man.

Perhaps @tigertrader can enlighten us? I found the video very informative and couldnt care less how wealthy he is or what hes selling, its the knowledge he shares that is interesting.

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Perhaps @tigertrader can enlighten us? I found the video very informative and couldnt care less how wealthy he is or what hes selling, its the knowledge he shares that is interesting.

Perhaps he could weigh in? Inletcap was the only other 20+ year industry vet I am aware of.

I can say one thing about @Fenchurch, she achieves amazingly elegant insights into trading. I guess partly as her mind does not entertain wilful blindness like most do these days and has little water contaminating her gasoline.

Has anyone seen his course materials? Is it the usual endless videos? (I dislike) or has he written tight material? My interest stems from being pretty hardcore in Futures but knowing nothing much about Options, ETFs etc. If there is less sh1t and more shineola with him that would nice.

Edit: I somewhat have an answer from his minion here (just kidding, as he's wearing a yellow pullover)
First bit is 37 hours across 35 videos online with "lots of spreadsheets and PDFs" and another for Forex, 29 videos, loads of spreadsheets..

Anton's love of Trump as a business icon is concerning. Meandering stream of consciousness videos are the cheapest way to produce content. Trump University II does come to mind but if the courses are good and don't have lots of up-sells that is not the case I'll accept.

However I would like some crackers to enjoy with this cheese:


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cotradetech
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Grantx View Post
Perhaps @tigertrader can enlighten us? I found the video very informative and couldnt care less how wealthy he is or what hes selling, its the knowledge he shares that is interesting.

I found the video very informative and couldn't care less how wealthy he is or what he is selling.

Say no more.

@Rory i am not against you or Anton, but nor does our justification do anything to better our lives.

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I found the video very informative and couldn't care less how wealthy he is or what he is selling.

Say no more.

@Rory i am not against you or Anton, but nor does our justification do anything to better our lives.

Ok that means nothing but fine, you don't care if you get something free.

Facts and dishing the inside scoop pitch is also fine but what is important to inquiring minds is how the information is weighted by a mentor. If he is grossly overstating xyz to sell courses that matters I recon. The famed single poisoned M&M in the bowl. I am an actual potential customer but my time is valuable. When not distracting myself waiting for trades to close haha.

If it were Futures and not Options/Forex.ETFs he specialises in I'd be able to make a call.

Apologies to @NJAMC if this is gone way off his intended course.

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 SMCJB 
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NJAMC View Post
Great video for retail traders to give some understanding of what you are up against.


Video has been removed!

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 NJAMC 
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I posted the video for a discussion. I don't feel qualified to answer if what Anton has stated is 100% accurate, but truth lies somewhere between what retail brokers want you to believe and what is stated by the video. The video does feel close to accurate...

Although I cannot confirm all his facts and figures, but it is likely that retail trading firms are in a bit of a conflict of interest (whether by intent or happenstance). I am sure they would like more commissions as well as likely to hedge and not hedge certain transactions, they will certainly know the traders profit factor and their algos use your trading performance to gauge there response to your trade execution.

I would pose that even if the video isn't 100% fact, there is a story here that could be true. It seems to serve more of as a warning than a sales pitch. It doesn't mean you can't make money as a retail trader, but make sure you understand if there is a "hidden agenda" in the person(s) giving you advice and/or taking your money.

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SMCJB View Post
Video has been removed!

Darn! Wonder why...

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 SMCJB 
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Darn! Wonder why...

My guesses would be
  1. They didnt have permission to post it in the first place or
  2. Somebody threatened legal action over something he said
Shame I was just going to watch it.

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 NJAMC 
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My guesses would be
  1. They didnt have permission to post it in the first place or
  2. Somebody threatened legal action over something he said
Shame I was just going to watch it.

I am willing to bet it was #2 as it was recorded by the institute with a statement it would be posted. It was posted under the institutes YouTube channel....


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 sixtyseven 
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The jist was - trade like an institution. Multiple markets (follow the volatility), longer times frames, using 80% fundamental, 20% technical.
The infrastructure is set-up to make retail the bitch, by selling 'inverted narrative'. Investment banks, via brokers, via educators via retail make their money, by setting you up to trade like a loser via day trading methods that don't work with multiple daily round turns.


edit: 27,000+ people watched it in the few days it had been up. So that was popular.

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SMCJB View Post
My guesses would be
  1. They didnt have permission to post it in the first place or
  2. Somebody threatened legal action over something he said
Shame I was just going to watch it.

I'd say on point 2, as they (InstituteofTrading) uploaded it themselves so they had permission.

Could be they wanted to break it into sections and will re-post or a retail broker hand (that felt bit by the dog) objected?

He did promote a new alleged "no conflict of interest" brokerage model and so said all other brokers are dodgy. That caught my attention as a commercially cheeky when I watched it.

Missing, presumed fed. With several first class meals on a long flight.



Edit: too slow @NJAMC got in there first

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 sixtyseven 
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His angle was as an educator - but implying he was different from the rest, as he was not taking an introducing broker fee - and thus claims he has no conflict of interest to misled. He would have a higher % of profitable traders, which the brokers could effectively use as coupon income due to reliability, in addition they will save on marketing budget (30-50% of rev he estimated) to replace blown accounts (lost income streams). In exchange for providing new clients, spreads/commissions to brokers he only wanted to see the live data / net trade data of all his clients. i.e presumably so he could use this data to formulate his own trades.
His pitch as an educator is that he and all his mentors are ex-professional traders. You'll therefore be a winning trader by paying for his courses, but you'll get this refunded over a period of years - and thus in reality it will actually be free. I forget exactly how it was refunded, I think via some commission/spread kickback via the broker.

From his site:
"You will be eligible to become an Institute Trader once you have completed your Institute education. First you must complete the Professional Trading Masterclass Video Series and pass your exam. Once you have done this you can apply for your account to become an Institute Trader"

Same, same, but different - comes to mind.

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I posted the video for a discussion. I don't feel qualified to answer if what Anton has stated is 100% accurate, but truth lies somewhere between what retail brokers want you to believe and what is stated by the video. The video does feel close to accurate...

Although I cannot confirm all his facts and figures, but it is likely that retail trading firms are in a bit of a conflict of interest (whether by intent or happenstance). I am sure they would like more commissions as well as likely to hedge and not hedge certain transactions, they will certainly know the traders profit factor and their algos use your trading performance to gauge there response to your trade execution.

I would pose that even if the video isn't 100% fact, there is a story here that could be true. It seems to serve more of as a warning than a sales pitch. It doesn't mean you can't make money as a retail trader, but make sure you understand if there is a "hidden agenda" in the person(s) giving you advice and/or taking your money.

It was removed while I was watching it, only got 3/4 of the way through...irritating.

What he says is not surprising as everyone has heard the statistic that 90% of dumb money (retail traders) lose all their money. Anton simply explains how the system works which shouldn't really come as a shock to anyone. In his words, everyone that is outside of the big money blanket (banks, hedge funds, pension funds) and downstream of all that liquidity is someones else bitch. But so what...it doesn't mean that you as a retail trader cannot make money off the system which they have created. Who cares that they take the opposite side of your trade?? You are going to win/lose anyway!

The opportunity comes on a platter for us all, and the very system that Anton bashes (and which he got rich off) has provided all the necessary tools that you need in order to make as much as you want. It is up to the individual to figure out exactly how to do it. My shit detector tells me that Anton is a highly successful salesman and this whole crusade for the truth hes on is a monetising opportunity. Whats he doing it for otherwise? Take nothing away from him, its still interesting stuff, but my response to it is: "yeah, so?". He doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would do anything to help anyone else unless he was making money off it.

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I watched the video and learned nothing.

I followed Anton since the Millionaire trader show. More so for a laugh than anything else. Kind of like how people watch the Kardashians.

He promotes this alpha "trader" mentally that doesn't really exist anymore. All the advice he gives is primitive stuff that anyone with any trading domain skill already has access to. It's all publicly available, he's not exposing anything. His marketing approach also appears to be modeled off the likes of Tim Sykes.

He has no verified track record or actual industry recognition. He worked for the likes of Goldman, Lehman, and JP Morgan as registered investment advisor. Big deal He left in his mid-20's( hardly much experience in the world of investment banking). Most advisors underperform the market anyway, in fact, most portfolio managers underperform the market. Why would you expect him to know anything special? The premise that Anton and his "Institute" are going to turn you into a successful trader is non-sense. The only successful traders from his teachings will be the"outliers". He's no different than any other trading guru, eg Tim Sykes.

Anton's best ability is in sales, not trading. He is a very good salesman, and I respect that.

"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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 olobay 
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The videos can be found here:

Media | Anton Kreil

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 matthew28 
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Thanks @olobay for posting the official link to Anton Kreil's website with the videos. I'll watch the first one at least to see what the fuss is about.
Then @jamesfisher asks for the videos to be downloaded and uploaded to another site and @sleepy does so. Nice one. Just help yourself to other people's copyrighted material.

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Fenchurch told me its back online. Yep, if he says so himself & all caps in the title.



I've worked in the City and Anton seems typical enough. These guys are certainly not stupid (blinkered for sure) however like I.T. consultancy lingo, it is easy to be too impressed by a presenter's fluidity and apparent depth as a novice to a field.

Regardless he has definitely reminded me to watch Mindhorn https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4799064/

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Anyone know why Anton Kreil doesn't "Annihilate" other Trading Educators and post a verifiable track record?

Surely this man is like a trading god. Look how Alpha & macho he is.

"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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 Neo1 
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@mattz

Seriously, what do you think of Mr Kreil?

"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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@mattz

Seriously, what do you think of Mr Kreil?

I do not know what he provides in terms of content in his course. I really did not want to watch anything else past the first 5 minutes on the original video that was posted here.


Google these names: Ray Dalio, James Harris Simons and Carl Icahn.
They are good traders and investors, and they often share their opinions and views.
Watch their videos and read their articles.


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Finally watched it. While he obviously a very big fan of himself I actually thought a lot of what he said was good information. If your trying to become a retail trader and you didn't know a lot of what he says in this video, then maybe you should reassess what you are doing. I honestly do think that the best advise for many newbee traders is to stop and find something else to burn your money on.

While there are a lot of bad apples out there, not everybody is a bad apple. In reality he wasn't really criticizing all retail brokers, he was really criticizing the market makers who take the other side of your trade, be that CFD's or Forex. For those types of accounts (I won't call them brokers because they are not brokers, brokers don't take the other side of your trade, they arrange for somebody else to) I agree with almost everything he says. It's feeding lambs to the lions and it's dependent upon having an endless supply of lambs.

As for his attack on educators? You don't have to look at many of the threads here to know that there are a lot of snake oil salesman masquerading as educators out there, and they deserve the criticism they get. Again while there are a lot of bad apples out there, not every educator is a bad apple.

But all in all, I think this is a self-promotional piece about how good he is versus everybody else. Saying that I have no idea whether his course is any good.

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 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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SMCJB View Post
Finally watched it. While he obviously a very big fan of himself I actually thought a lot of what he said was good information. If your trying to become a retail trader and you didn't know a lot of what he says in this video, then maybe you should reassess what you are doing. I honestly do think that the best advise for many newbee traders is to stop and find something else to burn your money on.

While there are a lot of bad apples out there, not everybody is a bad apple. In reality he wasn't really criticizing all retail brokers, he was really criticizing the market makers who take the other side of your trade, be that CFD's or Forex. For those types of accounts (I won't call them brokers because they are not brokers, brokers don't take the other side of your trade, they arrange for somebody else to) I agree with almost everything he says. It's feeding lambs to the lions and it's dependent upon having an endless supply of lambs.

As for his attack on educators? You don't have to look at many of the threads here to know that there are a lot of snake oil salesman masquerading as educators out there, and they deserve the criticism they get. Again while there are a lot of bad apples out there, not every educator is a bad apple.

But all in all, I think this is a self-promotional piece about how good he is versus everybody else. Saying that I have no idea whether his course is any good.

This is just a general statement.


In the last few years there is a race among educators to revel the "truth" to the new guy. It's all a sales pitch that consists of how rigged the systems is, "brokers are bad" and the same old "look at your retirement". Every educator claims that all the other educators are bad except for him/her because he tells you how the systems really works. It's a winning pitch each time.

Some of the educators are intelligent, and their knowledge is impressive. If you are beginner and listen to some of them you think you fell on some precious stone, and in your heart you must believe that he/she has provided some value especially if took the course/chart room/etc. Yet, to turn someone else's knowledge into practical and implementable method is a whole different ball of wax. Only experience and real trading will make you realize what is real and what will truly add to your knowledge to make progress.

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Rory
 
 
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A good contender for the compulsory readme (that FIO should have)


mattz View Post
This is just a general statement.


In the last few years there is a race among educators to revel the "truth" to the new guy. It's all a sales pitch that consists of how rigged the systems is, "brokers are bad" and the same old "look at your retirement". Every educator claims that all the other educators are bad except for him/her because he tells you how the systems really works. It's a winning pitch each time.

Some of the educators are intelligent, and their knowledge is impressive. If you are beginner and listen to some of them you think you fell on some precious stone, and in your heart you must believe that he/she has provided some value especially if took the course/chart room/etc. Yet, to turn someone else's knowledge into practical and implementable method is a whole different ball of wax. Only experience and real trading will make you realize what is real and what will truly add to your knowledge to make progress.

Thank you,
Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

I had a look at his twitter thingy, I wonder which monkeys Anton is referring to as orangutans are apes. Must be the students.

0.1% T-shirt.. wow... And he has an IQ standard curve chart a bit above that... wow again. No plans to be a customer for sure now. Utter lack of self-awareness /cheddar cheesy City boy humor. Trump's biological father is looking good though, nice of Anton to visit his idol's dad.

Gaslighting boys and girls, gaslighting.

Time to give serious thought to setting up a school... I'll never have a reason to get that drugged tiger selfie otherwise. Death Cigarettes comes to mind. I did not smoke but I wanted to when Deaths (and Death lites) came out in Ireland & UK.

Now having said that, I myself did start off with a 3k school (not Tim Sykes but yes there was an infinity pool shot somewhere). I guess it is part of the reason I have a morbid interest in guys like Anton. I was angry and frustrated with slapped together course material however the fundamentals were sound and I extracted value out of the situation. I would not do it again.. but..if your a land-on-your-feet personality its hard to go wrong.

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 Grantx 
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Rory View Post
0.1% T-shirt.. wow... And he has an IQ standard curve chart a bit above that... wow again. No plans to be a customer for sure now. Utter lack of self-awareness /cheddar cheesy City boy humor. Trump's biological father is looking good though, nice of Anton to visit his idol's dad.

Gaslighting boys and girls, gaslighting.

And who gets their chauffeur to open the door?
Also , hard to concentrate when he kept opening his water bottle and closing it without taking a sip - "is he going to drink some this time???"

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Rory
 
 
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Grantx View Post
And who gets their chauffeur to open the door?
Also , hard to concentrate when he kept opening his water bottle and closing it without taking a sip - "is he going to drink some this time???"

I noticed that water bottle thing also, it is well known to annoy people. Makes everyone else think their complimentary water might contain poison haha.

At my age I'm being a cranky old man, Anton is a kid from my perspective, the sort of guy that having kids will do a lot of good. I saw he got married recently so I wish him well.

I've found someone who looked at the course. I'm told if one has the capacity to read a few books that would be better but he indicated it was ok material for beginners & meh, value is in the eye of the student.

This morning I've started to look at some stuff by "The Retarded Hedge Fund Manager"
which is more my style. Someone my own age and nice to see we both "retired" or got "retarded" as he puts it (I like that!), at the same time in life.

My assistant has been telling me for months to read his blog but I'm not a follower of others by habit & philosophy, though I think I like this guy's style on first impression. Sprezza

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 TheShrike 
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Who cares about the water bottle if what he's saying is true? Maybe he just has nerves when he's speaking in front of people. And who is this Fenchurch person you keep mentioning like we're supposed to know who they are?

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Who cares about the water bottle if what he's saying is true? Maybe he just has nerves when he's speaking in front of people. And who is this Fenchurch person you keep mentioning like we're supposed to know who they are?

I made the very first reply?


I work for Rory's company as he said a few posts following mine if that matters?

EDITED: Ok I am caught-up. Rory asked the admin to delete those posts. My view as to whether or not Anton speaks complete truth is as I said.


Rory View Post
Makes everyone else think their complimentary water might contain poison haha.

What was that movie called?

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 londonkid 
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Guys please don't fall for this. They are selling education for thousands and thousands of dollars, they are slick salesmen. Real professional traders in the UK do not teach they work at firms and you are usually under an NDA. If you want to trade professionally just join a trading firm or institution.

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 Cloudy 
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tradingschools.org's thoughts on Kreil,

https://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/institute-of-trading-and-portfolio-management/

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 SMCJB 
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I'm not sticking up for Anton but I think that's BS. The review basically says
"Anton claims to be a top trader for Goldman etc. While we can confirm he worked for Goldman etc we can't confirm whether he was a great trader or not. Since most other people who advertise like he does are shills, he must be one as well."
Why? On what grounds? Long list of complaints against him? Nope. Then why? Because Tim Sykes was? I don't anything about Anton, he could be a fraud, but finding him guilty in the public opinion courts with absolutely zero evidence seems a little unfair at this stage.

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 Neo1 
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SMCJB View Post
I'm not sticking up for Anton but I think that's BS. The review basically says
"Anton claims to be a top trader for Goldman etc. While we can confirm he worked for Goldman etc we can't confirm whether he was a great trader or not. Since most other people who advertise like he does are shills, he must be one as well."
Why? On what grounds? Long list of complaints against him? Nope. Then why? Because Tim Sykes was? I don't anything about Anton, he could be a fraud, but finding him guilty in the public opinion courts with absolutely zero evidence seems a little unfair at this stage.

The reviewer is definitely guilty of stereotyping, however, he gets some parts right.

"if Anton Kreil is a registered investment advisor, does this also mean that he is a millionaire and a world class trader? My mother has a registered investment advisor that advises her, and has worked at JP Morgan for 20+ years. In fact, he is the Vice President of JP Morgan. One of many thousands of Vice Presidents at JP Morgan. This is the corny little secret with big banks, everyone gets a fancy title…which means very little."

Anton tries to put himself and his company on a pedestal because he and his "mentors" have worked for an investment bank of some sorts. This becomes a key part of his sales pitch where he tries to separate himself from other vendors... eg "Did your vendor/ mentor once work for an investment bank? If not, they suck by default. Look at me and all our mentors, we are all from investment banks, therefore we know how to trade, and can teach you the secrets. We are the 1%" etc etc. This kind of Jargo is more toxic than Tim Sykes, especially, when Anton is spreading it in more credible places like University lecture rooms/ business schools. It's very strategic marketing. A+

"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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 rleplae 
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SMCJB View Post
I'm not sticking up for Anton but I think that's BS. The review basically says
"Anton claims to be a top trader for Goldman etc. While we can confirm he worked for Goldman etc we can't confirm whether he was a great trader or not. Since most other people who advertise like he does are shills, he must be one as well."
Why? On what grounds? Long list of complaints against him? Nope. Then why? Because Tim Sykes was? I don't anything about Anton, he could be a fraud, but finding him guilty in the public opinion courts with absolutely zero evidence seems a little unfair at this stage.

For me a 'super' trader/mentor, is a person that can explain you the basics, the advanced, the market dynamics, a system and/or an edge that you can understand (yes i have met in my life people who are very good traders, but who are unable to explain, there is always a missing part or a secret sauce) and that he can teach you how to use, although i think each has to adopt a personal style, you can not copy a style form another person like that. So the person that 'scores' the best, would be the person, that is able to teach the basics, asses what kind of person you rare and then coach you into successfully applying what he thought you...

The best teacher are those persons who can access the level of the class/pupils and bring them to the highest level possible, rather than just 'pushing' stuff and giving them a 'failed' grade, every fail, is also somewhere a fail for the teacher...

He may be a a good trader with good teaching/coaching skills...
He may be a lousy trader himself, but being able to form/craft the most successful individuals..

I think what he 'cooked' does not matter, all is about, how good a cook he can teach you to be..


my two cents..

No comments on Anton Kreil (i have no exprience with him), just general comments

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 geth03 
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well, some hate this guy bc he destroys dreams of becoming rich with retail trading,
and some love him for that. you can definitely learn something from this guy (not about technical intraday trading for sure).
he knows how the world is from the perspective of the sell side (Brokers). and additionally he is a sell side guy himself (and a really good one).
anyway, i dont agree with the 90/90/90 phenomena. i am able to destroy my account in less than 2 weeks
and btw how much water did he drink during the presentation

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 SBtrader82 
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I have seen many videos on youtube by Anton and there are many things that I observed, and made me suspicious about him:

1) he seems to have no formal education... and he is quite proud of that, in his vision of life you are worth as an individual as much as your bank account. He dislikes university and formal education. Honestly I think being a great person is more valuable than how much you make a year

2) he bases all his criticism of retail trading, on the (false) assumption that retail trading has anything to do with what investment bankers do. Basically you either come from Goldman, JPmorgan, Citibank etc... or you are useless and have no idea of what you are doing. I don't think the timeframe and the risk parameters that big banks use have anything to do with what retail traders do. Look at big funds, that make 10% a year (if they are good), a retail trader with a 30K account can make the same return in one day..... I am not saying one is better that the other, they are completely different games.

3) he has so many absolute truths... he knows "the right way" to trade, "the right way" to manage finance... "the right way" to live.... and he can give you lessons about basically everything, from macro economics of entire countries to human relations. The lack of complexity of his thoughts is in itself a synonymous of a poor intellect. As the German philosopher Hegel would say: true understanding lies in retaining the complexity of a subject.

4) he criticize flashy lifestyle that many youtube traders promote, but then he makes courses in very flashy places.... and takes videos around the beach or in 5 stars hotel. To explain the value of money, he takes out a 20K USD cash.... why does he do that? to show everybody that he has 20K at hand? come on!!

I think he is just somebody that had a great career in the corporate world ....will he teach you how to organically grow a small account of 50K USD?? I don't know.
I think if you go to the jungle you'd rather have as a guide a local than a Harvard phd... same thing, if you want to trade your small account, why do you want to learn from an former Goldman's boy?

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 SBtrader82 
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Also, some more "strange things " I observed in his pictures....
1) many pics / videos with cash!!! nowadays cash is useless in many places... you can pay by credit card almost everywhere.
2) champagne!! he loves MOET.... obviously a brand. I don't know you guys, but I prefer good wine. You can buy good red wine for 20 USD.
3) look at the picture with the 4 screens: 2 are hidden behind one, which makes no sense.... the you have two visible screen in a room full of light. The light coming from the windows normally is quite bothering and does not allow you to see the screen clearly.

Everything looks too "fancy" to me.
[IMG][IMG][/IMG][/IMG]

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 SBtrader82 
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carofa View Post
I love trading an so I like everyone who have the same passion!

However most successful trader with proven record are very shy .
Anton is either a big exception or he is not trading ?

In one Video he is recommending to sell the Turkish Lira and one Video later he proudly tells that this
trade was very good . But please have a look at he chart and the date ! (Pair USD/TRY)


So I suspect that he is not trading he is just selling the dream to become rich by trading

for me the fact that he is bragging about a the potential trade on Turkish Lira is the final proof that he is not reliable.
As a trader the key factor is implementation, I can tell you now that the SP500 is going to fall and then the day it falls, I can show you how smart I was..... but you make money if you time market correctly.
Besides the fall in Turkish lira had nothing to do with his analysis....

Besides, look at this website there are two ripoff reports:
https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/anton-kreil-institute-of-trading-and-portfolio-management/select-stateprovince/anton-kreil-institute-of-trading-and-portfolio-management-scam-rip-off-bad-customer-s-1161508

https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/anton-kreil-institute-of-trading-and-portfolio-management/internet/anton-kreil-institute-of-trading-and-portfolio-management-anton-kreil-institute-of-trad-1217504

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  #44 (permalink)
 SMCJB 
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Nothing to do with Anton but I think they are pathetic and illustrate one of the worst aspects of the internet.

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 carofa 
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SamJames View Post
As a trader the key factor is implementation,[/url]

Rule No 12
“MARKETS ARE NEVER WRONG – OPINIONS OFTEN ARE”

Rules : https://www.marcellagerwerf.com/jesse-livermore-quotes/

LEGENDS OF TRADING: THE STORY OF JESSE LIVERMORE



at least Anton has an opinion ! Even if the opinion is wrong it is still better than to relay on chart-???.

What is good with Anton that he is for example not recommending Daytrading . Of course some gamblers don't like to hear that and are very frustrated by this kind of training!

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 SBtrader82 
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carofa View Post
Rule No 12

at least Anton has an opinion ! Even if the opinion is wrong it is still better than to relay on chart-???.

What is good with Anton that he is for example not recommending Daytrading . Of course some gamblers don't like to hear that and are very frustrated by this kind of training!

I don't agree with what you say, having an opinion is not necessarily a good thing. It makes you enter a trade with biases, which are maybe correct in a completely different time frame.
I think you don't need to have a long term opinion to make money in the market, and that more often than not a long temr opinion might cause a lot of problems.

This is my opinion, of course... but if you are profitable in any other way, good for you!
Also, I don't think it's very respectful to automatically define every day trader as a gambler.

There many day traders in the world (and in this website) that know exactly what they do. They are not gamblers, and they gain substantial amount of money.
Trading based on macro-economics considerations is also viable, and I respect that.... but to me if you don't optimize timing, that willl not allow you to make money.

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 carofa 
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carofa View Post
some gamblers don't like to hear that

some is not all .

Maybe I should put it this way :

Gamblers are those who live in this Candlestick-World ( 100 Percent "technical" not 80 to 20 Percent ) If you make a seminar and tell those guys you buy for example Palladium due to a shortage they are very frustrated if Palladium has not 2 green Candlesticks followed by a red one all the time .

I am sometimes using a candlestick Chart and I am sometimes daytrading .


I think Anton is giving us trader a better image than others who sell the trading a game and as a Playstation .

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  #48 (permalink)
 centaurer 
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Anyone know why Anton Kreil doesn't "Annihilate" other Trading Educators and post a verifiable track record?
.

I don't know this guy, just reminds me of 95 year old Poor Charlie's talk a month ago.

Breaks down all trading "education" right here.


I love he can't even contain himself from chuckling.

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 smtlaissezfaire 
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I have taken one of his courses; I can provide a review if anyone is interested (PM me if you are).

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 dk27 
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Why can’t you review here for everybody?


smtlaissezfaire View Post
I have taken one of his courses; I can provide a review if anyone is interested (PM me if you are).


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 smtlaissezfaire 
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I can if there is demand. Didn't want to waste the effort if there isn't.

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 dk27 
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Of course there is, please go ahead.


smtlaissezfaire View Post
I can if there is demand. Didn't want to waste the effort if there isn't.


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 smtlaissezfaire 
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Ok - uploading a video to youtube just because it was easier than writing / editing a really long response.

It's ~ 30 minutes (!) Curious on any feedback.

Will post once it's uploaded.

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  #54 (permalink)
 smtlaissezfaire 
Oakland, CA
 
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  #55 (permalink)
 snax 
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Thank you for sharing, @smtlaissezfaire!

I think you are right in that long/short requires a ton of work as does any worthwhile strategy. I have always been a "buy and hold" kind of investor outside of futures, so maybe some kind of spreading or pairs-trade over a longer timeframe, even just a few days or a week, might be a good way for myself or others to bridge that gap between passive investing and the "excitement" and risk of day-timeframe futures trading.

Another avenue that I believe can lead to more consistent wealth-generation is selling option premium. I'm taking my time learning the ins and outs of it but eventially I think I will integrate it into my overall approach to the markets.

i appreciate the time you took to make that and I agree that it sounds like you can find the info from the course for free elsewhere. I am always open to new ideas though.

cheers!

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 smtlaissezfaire 
Oakland, CA
 
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Off topic, but:

@snax Check out - https://www.amazon.com/Option-Traders-Hedge-Fund-Framework/dp/0134807529/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?keywords=insurance+option+premium+hedge+fund&qid=1580494882&sr=8-1-fkmr1

Make sure you understand the greeks. There was a great series of udemy that was like $10 a course (since udemy always has these sales going on) that described a lot of it and I thought it was well worth it to get the basics down. Since it's off topic I can point you to it if you are curious off thread (I'd have to dig it up).

Obviously the option classics like Sheldon Natenberg are out there as well.

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 SMCJB 
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smtlaissezfaire View Post
Ok - uploading a video to youtube just because it was easier than writing / editing a really long response.

It's ~ 30 minutes (!) Curious on any feedback.

@smtlaissezfaire that was excellent, Thank You. Great idea doing it as video rather than spending so much time writing and editing and re-editing a long post.

Regarding trading - my experience is in the energy arena, where I have worked for some of the largest energy trading companies in the world over the last 25 years. Every where I worked the companies edge was fundamental information. They had a better idea of what was happening, and will happen in the market than many others. Not only did they have teams of analysts but also quants and meteorologists. In those years the people who made AND lost the most money were traders who made outright directional trades. The people who consistently made money year after year were nearly all trading a spread or portfolio of some sort or other that was more dependent upon inter or intra commodity relationships rather than pure direction.

Finally TT's ADL is an amazing tool!

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 smtlaissezfaire 
Oakland, CA
 
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This is also slightly off topic, but...I have been rattling this idea around my head, although I'm not sure where it belongs.

Learning to trade has been a very difficult thing. The hard part hasn't been sitting down to the work, or even to learn the markets, but the web of lies + BS that is involved in a retail trader trying to learn the markets. And more frustrating has been the money, but even more so - the time invested - in things that don't or haven't worked.

I've noticed that almost every site for retail traders has some sort of promotion. Even futures.io, which I believe is largely above board, is sponsored by others (I regularly see ads for Jigsaw, Topstop, etc.) This may or may not cause a conflict of interest by futures.io, but it sometimes leads me to wonder / question if there are fake accounts, posts, or people who aren't totally above board on here (are they receiving money from others etc?). Same goes for certain "free" chat rooms. Of course that's not necessarily futures.io _fault_ per se.

If nothing else, (for futures.io) it obviously creates a conflict of interest between the members (who pay) and the sponsors (who also pay). "You can't serve two masters" as the saying goes.

Since I'm a developer, I've thought about setting up a site which is just video reviews of trading products, but I'd need some way to filter out potentially bogus reviews. I like the idea of video reviews because it's hard to fake a video of someone talking who has obviously taken the course.

I also like the idea of splitting up these reviews into two parts: 1) objective. here's what the course contains and 2) subjective. here's my opinion of the course, if I'll use it, etc.

Curious on what others think of these ideas.

I've run across two main review sites - one which seems OK, the other seems largely bogus. Also - that site mentioned above ("rip off report") is obviously garbage. They didn't even get the website right! And the review had zero substance.

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 SMCJB 
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Re: futures.io @Big Mike has very strict policies about a) not having multiple accounts and b) requiring members to register if the are commercial in anyway (the vendor title). He's also very strict to enforce said policies with suspensions and banning. futures.io also doesn't tolerate the keyboard warrioring and trolling that so many other sites are ruined by, which to me is one of it's greatest attributes.

Re: Video reviews. I think that's a very interesting and good idea. We've moved to a world when you can go to youtube and find a video explaining almost anything so it's probably only a matter of time before much of this goes to video. You could always do some sample reviews, and post them here, just as soon as you have your own site, or start marketing it, make sure you register as a vendor here!

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  #60 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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smtlaissezfaire View Post
I've noticed that almost every site for retail traders has some sort of promotion. Even futures.io, which I believe is largely above board, is sponsored by others (I regularly see ads for Jigsaw, Topstop, etc.) This may or may not cause a conflict of interest by futures.io, but it sometimes leads me to wonder / question if there are fake accounts, posts, or people who aren't totally above board on here (are they receiving money from others etc?). Same goes for certain "free" chat rooms. Of course that's not necessarily futures.io _fault_ per se.


SMCJB View Post
Re: futures.io @Big Mike has very strict policies about a) not having multiple accounts and b) requiring members to register if the are commercial in anyway (the vendor title). He's also very strict to enforce said policies with suspensions and banning. futures.io also doesn't tolerate the keyboard warrioring and trolling that so many other sites are ruined by, which to me is one of it's greatest attributes.

The site moderators, of which I am one, spend a lot of time and attention preventing hidden vendor self-promotion, and posts are deleted and users are banned for violations of the rules. You would not believe how many people try to sneak in their promotional message.

Sponsors and registered vendors operate under rules about what they can and cannot do, and are called on it if necessary.

As to the existence of sponsors, very few good things are provided anywhere for free. Bills have to be paid and a business has to be run. But the well-being of the community is the priority, and comes ahead of other considerations.

And as @SMCJB mentioned, trolling and rude behavior gets banned very quickly.

We want it to be civilized and safe here. Since people will naturally disagree -- basically, about just about anything -- debate, discussion and disagreement are part of what the forum is for. The environment just needs to be civil, and free of hidden commercial influences. We aim to keep it that way. Then, discussions can be productive, not disruptive.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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 phantomtrader 
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smtlaissezfaire View Post
This is also slightly off topic, but...I have been rattling this idea around my head, although I'm not sure where it belongs.

Learning to trade has been a very difficult thing. The hard part hasn't been sitting down to the work, or even to learn the markets, but the web of lies + BS that is involved in a retail trader trying to learn the markets. And more frustrating has been the money, but even more so - the time invested - in things that don't or haven't worked.

I've noticed that almost every site for retail traders has some sort of promotion. Even futures.io, which I believe is largely above board, is sponsored by others (I regularly see ads for Jigsaw, Topstop, etc.) This may or may not cause a conflict of interest by futures.io, but it sometimes leads me to wonder / question if there are fake accounts, posts, or people who aren't totally above board on here (are they receiving money from others etc?). Same goes for certain "free" chat rooms. Of course that's not necessarily futures.io _fault_ per se.

If nothing else, (for futures.io) it obviously creates a conflict of interest between the members (who pay) and the sponsors (who also pay). "You can't serve two masters" as the saying goes.

Since I'm a developer, I've thought about setting up a site which is just video reviews of trading products, but I'd need some way to filter out potentially bogus reviews. I like the idea of video reviews because it's hard to fake a video of someone talking who has obviously taken the course.

I also like the idea of splitting up these reviews into two parts: 1) objective. here's what the course contains and 2) subjective. here's my opinion of the course, if I'll use it, etc.

Curious on what others think of these ideas.

I've run across two main review sites - one which seems OK, the other seems largely bogus. Also - that site mentioned above ("rip off report") is obviously garbage. They didn't even get the website right! And the review had zero substance.

I'll disagree with you here. This industry is loaded, absolutely loaded, with fakes, frauds, wanna-be's and every other kind of scoundrel you can imagine. However, the sponsors on this site are genuine and in business to do business and have worthwhile tools to offer. I've been a member here for years and have never seen a sponsor who was suspect. Big Mike and the mods do an excellent job of weeding out the aforementioned scoundrels.

Traders need worthwhile references. It's a very solitary business. Without references to research and test, traders would really be out in the cold with nothing but their wits to guide them - and untrained wits are not the way to go in this business. I only wish there were more genuine articles in this business - there's far too few.

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  #62 (permalink)
 bobwest 
Site Moderator
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@smtlaissezfaire, I have taken your previous post down.

Futures.io policy flatly forbids anything being posted here that has even a hint of solicitation or promotion of any service or business, or that may lead to members being offered such a service, even if it is purely exploratory. The only exceptions are site sponsors, who are still under restrictions about what they can do. Because the membership is a potential gold mine, very few are accepted as sponsors.

From reading your other posts, I think you probably meant no harm and may not have been fully aware of the policy, but we take this very seriously. Otherwise, this forum would no longer be a safe place for traders to come to.

Now that you know, just be aware that anything that resembles self-promotion or a commercial purpose will lead to a ban in the future.

I wanted to give you an explanation, in the belief that you were inadvertently, rather than deliberately, overstepping our bounds.

Bob.

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-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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  #63 (permalink)
 smtlaissezfaire 
Oakland, CA
 
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Thanks @bobwest. Certainly meant no harm!

My goal is just to share what I've learned so far (and hopefully to learn from others as well).

I'm glad there's such a community here and understand why futures.io has those restrictions. (I understand those restrictions help create such a community).

Also thanks for being a class act and responding privately. It would be easy for a moderator to just ban senselessly, and clearly you didn't do that. So thanks for being upfront with the why behind it all.

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