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Need help with developing my trading system / plan (mentor??)


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Need help with developing my trading system / plan (mentor??)

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  #1 (permalink)
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart, SC
Trading: Emini ES, CL, USD/CAD
 
Posts: 424 since Jun 2016
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Hello,

My name is John, and you may have seen my few posts recently. I am here seeking help in understanding what exactly do you need to consider in order to develop a trading system?

Everyone just says you need to come up with a trading plan / system and then practise it on sim for months and tweak it as you go.

But what does a trading system consist of? Also on this note, I am hoping if someone could help me get started and follow through with me (i.e., looking for a mentor).

Best Wishes,

John

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  #3 (permalink)
montreal quebec/canada
 
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That is THE QUESTION...

There are ton of guys who are today millionaire just by writing books to answer that question And they are millionaire because I frankly believe it is not the right question to ask or at least not like that.

Quiet honestly and don't take it negatively but at this point you should not trade or even try SIM trading. My only advise would be: at you level just be careful of the people who will try to sell you a seminar at 10K$ which is supposed to make you a trader in 10 days.

I can't even point you in one direction for information because your question is too general and trading could means thousands of different things.

(and if I read incorrectly your question maybe you should develop, how you trade currently, what is you method, your training etc...)


Good Luck
Cheers.

O.

R.I.P. Olivier Terrier (aka "Okina"), 1969-2016.
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  #4 (permalink)
Sydney, NSW, Australia
 
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amoeba's Avatar
 
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Good response from Okina. I would still recommend having a read of Van Tharp's book - Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom. Its a bit old now, but does cover the thought process behind what should be considered in a trading plan/system.

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  #5 (permalink)
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
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Posts: 424 since Jun 2016
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Okina View Post
That is THE QUESTION...

There are ton of guys who are today millionaire just by writing books to answer that question And they are millionaire because I frankly believe it is not the right question to ask or at least not like that.

Quiet honestly and don't take it negatively but at this point you should not trade or even try SIM trading. My only advise would be: at you level just be careful of the people who will try to sell you a seminar at 10K$ which is supposed to make you a trader in 10 days.

I can't even point you in one direction for information because your question is too general and trading could means thousands of different things.

(and if I read incorrectly your question maybe you should develop, how you trade currently, what is you method, your training etc...)


Good Luck
Cheers.

O.

To further narrow my question, I am looking to learn and develop my trading plan that is right for me for the e mini micro futures, and after a year or 2 of trading live, apply the knowledge and plan to ES and forex ultimately. But like there surely must be a list of things that a trading plan consist of for someone wanting to trade in the ES & forex.

Thank you for the advisory warning, I am definitely going to be skeptical if I come across seminars and courses that claim to teach me in a short amount of time (days to weeks) at a monetary value in the thousands.

Best,

John

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  #6 (permalink)
Boston, MA
 
 
Posts: 264 since Apr 2014


noobforlyfe View Post
...Thank you for the advisory warning, I am definitely going to be skeptical if I come across seminars and courses that claim to teach me in a short amount of time (days to weeks) at a monetary value in the thousands.

Best,

John

This tells me you have a good head on your shoulders. You're going to do great in the future, because you are doing your due diligence now.

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  #7 (permalink)
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
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HoopyTrading View Post
This tells me you have a good head on your shoulders. You're going to do great in the future, because you are doing your due diligence now.

Thanks HoopyTrading, but would you be able to shed some insight on what a trading plan /methodology/ system generally consists of?

So heres my thought process as to what i think it generally consist of, let me know if theres anything else I need to consider/ add.

Okay so i like to boil things down to its basics and keep it simple, you build 'complex' ideas off of your simple basic knowledge and understanding.

Alright, so heres what I think a trading plan consists of (and then people just tweak it to their preference which makes it THEIR trading plan) :

1) You need to know what market you want to trade. (E-micro first, then build up leading to ES, CL, FX).. well these are the markets i want to trade so...

2) Next is you need to know when to Enter.
I feel generally what people do is they look for a few but VERY common recurring patterns that make the market go up or down. Again this is all a probability game, and what the market will do, nobody knows. But what I'm saying is essentially, they look if like 3 or 4 candles are going downward and like its not crossing the support, they know its going to bounce back so they go long and enter a tick or 2 from the support line you draw. Similarly, if you see a candle or 2 going down, and the market bounced off a resistance area, more often than not, it will continue going down so you can look to go short here for a safe 6-8 ticks.
3) You need to determine your risk to reward ratio and that is majorly manipulated by your account size (mainly risk)

4) You need to incorporate the psychological emotions involved regarding greed, fear and not let it affect your thought process that leads to step 2 (See above). (That can be mastered or controlled over time through meditation and other exercises)

5) A few indicators (2-3) to just help you understand what the market MAY do and where most of the supply and demand is at. More often than not, the market consolidates at prices / targets where it deems the price to be right given the current economic situations.

6) practice your trading plan (which i feel is just step 2 and 4) and that's what everyone refers to when they say your trading methodology/plan/ system.

But if you look at it, what every trader essentially needs to learn (which is what makes it YOUR own custom trading plan) is step number 2 and 4. The rest is very small factors you have to sort out and given steps 1, 3,5 are technical steps, it can be figured out in hours if not a day.

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  #8 (permalink)
Boston, MA
 
 
Posts: 264 since Apr 2014


noobforlyfe View Post
...Okay so i like to boil things down to its basics and keep it simple, you build 'complex' ideas off of your simple basic knowledge and understanding.

.

The above quote I bolded and italicized is it. That's it right there. Everything else you have typed I have gone through in my own trading experience. Live, 3-D. Super-detailed technical analysis, so much confusion. So much falderal.


noobforlyfe, focus on the first part above, but with the following in mind... (And this is the important bit that is now finally bringing me to consistent profits...)

"What kind of a trader are you?"

I asked myself that question in March or so of this year, found the answer, and am now doing very well in sim. Next step is to take it live and see if I am that same trader. But you gotta' figure out who you are, and what kind of trader you are, and adjust yourself to it. Do not fight who you are...Just adjust to it.

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  #9 (permalink)
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
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HoopyTrading View Post
The above quote I bolded and italicized is it. That's it right there. Everything else you have typed I have gone through. Super-detailed technical analysis, so much confusion. So much falderal.


noobforlyfe, focus on the first part above, but with the following in mind... (And this is the important bit that is now finally bringing me to consistent profits...)

"What kind of a trader are you?"

I asked myself that question in March or so of this year, found the answer, and am now doing very well in sim. Next step is to take it live and see if I am that same trader. But you gotta' figure out who you are, and what kind of trader you are, and adjust yourself to it. Do not fight who you are...Just adjust to it.

Hey HoopyTrading, thanks for your reply and input. If you don't mind me asking, what is the list of choices to pick from. What I mean by that is the following: pretend you are some mmog action game and someone ask's what type of a person are you? Mage, assasin, marksman, etc etc. Similarly, what are the terms people use in this field?

I mean ultimately the choices was at some point made up by some other human and said this term will mean this and this term will define that.

So I don't know how to answer the question cause all i can think of atm is do I want to be a full time trader or part time trader and i know that is not the answer. Nor do i think adjectives will be the answer to the question.

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  #10 (permalink)
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
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great question. not many post it like you do.

maybe 1st try to understand the markets....and what makes it tick?...probably not the easiest of paths and can only be seen by oneself....no matter how great a mentor. Once this is known....the trade plan and any paraphernalia is easy to construct or dissect.

if i was given a certain book to understand markets...which can be had on the internet today free.....whereas there are many i have paid top $s for. It would be a book on how markets work. Master the Markets By Tom Williams.

However there are many things which may make markets work or functional...but myself being a firm believer in Volume.... Limits Orders/Market Orders and few other things....found tremendous value when was asked to read this by my mentor. however that was just me....as i thought I knew Volume....but after reading the book...i realized i was looking at Volume by way of indicators and not what it meant. If only an indicator could read markets...!!..and by that i mean indicators are helpful if used in proper context of the current situation

cheers n best

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noobforlyfe View Post
Hey HoopyTrading, thanks for your reply and input. If you don't mind me asking, what is the list of choices to pick from. What I mean by that is the following: pretend you are some mmog action game and someone ask's what type of a person are you? Mage, assasin, marksman, etc etc. Similarly, what are the terms people use in this field?

I mean ultimately the choices was at some point made up by some other human and said this term will mean this and this term will define that.

So I don't know how to answer the question cause all i can think of atm is do I want to be a full time trader or part time trader and i know that is not the answer. Nor do i think adjectives will be the answer to the question.

I think I understand your questions/conundrum.

Firstly, don't use MMORPGs as an analogy, lol! Totally different genre. For the record, I'd be a Necromancer.

Second, noobforlyfe...Do you not see the power you have underneath your fingertips to at least be able to start the journey to figure out what kind of trader you may be? On a quiet weekend, you can run data as if it was streaming live, at whatever speed you wish. You can make believe it is running at normal speed, which on a day like today was really shitty, bleh, or like on a day last week when the markets were smoking! THe power is with you, Mr. noob!

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Market Wizard
Winnipeg, MB Canada
 
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Disclaimer: Please don't take anything I say below as negative, I'm only offering my opinion and I wish you well on your trading journey. Also note that I don't consider myself a consistently profitable trader, at best right now I'd call myself break-even (which you'll come to understand is a significant achievement if you decide to continue with trading).

My first advice to you would be to pay for elite membership here on FIO. There's a reason it has been recommended so many times across so many posts here. There is a ton of information available in posts and journals and I can't think of a better place for someone starting out to learn than the webinars section. Through this reading and watching you can come to a better understanding of how the markets work, ways different people approach the markets, and how people's trading has evolved as they've matured in the markets. I don't know how many hours a day you have available to you to dedicate to the markets, but I'd probably recommend budgeting at least 500 hours of exploring this site and others, watching videos, and studying books before even thinking about opening a trading account. I spent around 2 years in this stage.

Next, once you've figured out how you understand the market, write down how you think you can profit from this knowledge. A journal here on FIO is an excellent place to post this.

After you have an idea of how you want to approach the market the next step is finding a reliable broker. Again, this site has a bunch of information on brokers. I trade Forex so there are many, many brokers out there who will offer ridiculous leverage - stay away from these people! I see you're in Canada, so look for a broker that is regulated by IIROC and is a member of the CIPF. This will ensure that if your broker goes under, your account (up to $1M) is guaranteed by the Canadian government. I haven't looked into Futures brokers in Canada, but I'm sure that there is a wealth of information here about them.

The next step is to actually start to trade. There has been much debate on here about whether or not SIM trading is effective training for psychological reasons. My view is that like most things in trading it will work for some and not for others. Some feel that unless there's real money on the line you don't get a true representation of how your emotional state will be. Others believe that you shouldn't risk a penny until you've proven that you can be successful on SIM for a period of time. My personal belief falls somewhere in the middle. I think that SIM is helpful to understand the platform that you're trading with and helps with development of a feel for the market. I don't think that it truly prepares a person emotionally though for watching your equity balance fluctuate in real time. I'd recommend spending a few months trading SIM before graduating to trading real money in very small size. You need to prove to yourself in this step that you can be consistently profitable over a large period of trades and a large time horizon. My plan at the moment is to not increase my risk above my current 0.1% per trade until I can show a positive expectancy on my last 10, 20, 50, & 100 trades. Depending on how many trades you place per day, the time this will take will be variable. I wouldn't recommend doing this for less than 3 months though before increasing your risk per trade.

Once you reach the stage that you're actually placing trades (whether through SIM or with extremely small size) I cannot stress enough the benefit of recording your trades in a journal here (either on elite or in the public section). I truly believe that I could've saved myself a couple of years of failure and frustration if I had done this from the start.

When you ask for a mentor here, realize that nobody on this site is getting paid. The registration fee for Elite membership goes toward offsetting a small portion of the money that Mike has taken out of his own pocket to run the site. The level of positivity here considering this, is truly amazing. I sometimes can't believe the amount of time that people take to help others. Realize that when someone is posting something here they are taking time away from their own screen or time spent on their other interests. Also realize that some of the people here can be making 4 figures an hour, or more, trading so asking them to mentor you for free is a big ask. I think the best way to approach the mentor situation can be seen by following the link below (it's in the free section) and reading the journal from page 1 (I haven't tagged anyone here because I don't want anyone to feel like they have to respond). Note the dates as well as you're reading through. The journal was started on October 11, 2015 and the owner of the journal posted almost every day for more than 2 months before receiving feedback. People here are willing to help out, but they need to see that the dedication and perseverance you've proven is worth their time.



Sorry for the length of this post, I didn't think I'd be typing this long when I started. One final thing that I think is important to understand before continuing is the time investment that you will need to put in. Below is my typical weekly schedule:
Mon-Fri:
6:00 - Wake and get ready for the day
6:45 - eat breakfast while reading market commentary and trying to get a feel for the current state of the market
7:45 - 9:00 - trade if the opportunity presents itself in the market
9:00 - 6:00/7:00 - work at the job that currently pays the bills
6:00 - 8:00 - eat supper and spend time with my girlfriend
8:00 - 9:00 or later - review the trades taken that day (it's important to be honest with yourself here and really dissect your performance), study other trading-related items
10:00 - 11:00 - hopefully have some more time to spend with my girlfriend or on something that relaxes me
11:00 - try be in bed so that my mind is refreshed for the next trading day - sleep is important for focus
Weekends:
I try to limit myself to only work on trading related stuff up until noon but often go over this self-imposed limit. I usually spend at least 4-6 hours reviewing the week that just passed, preparing for the week to come, and reading other items of interest for my trading development
I'm a big believer that the time you spend preparing and reviewing your trades (especially as a beginner) should be at the very minimum a one-to-one relationship with the time you spend trading. I don't think it's realistic to trade for less than an hour a day, so at a minimum starting out you need to be able to dedicate 2 hours a day plus time on the weekend to be successful. This is after the 500 hours of initial study. Brokers love to market trading as a quick and easy way to make some extra cash but it's not.

Hopefully there's at least one thing in here that helps!

Good luck!

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  #13 (permalink)
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart, SC
Trading: Emini ES, CL, USD/CAD
 
Posts: 424 since Jun 2016
Thanks: 1,379 given, 723 received


MWG86 View Post
Disclaimer: Please don't take anything I say below as negative, I'm only offering my opinion and I wish you well on your trading journey. Also note that I don't consider myself a consistently profitable trader, at best right now I'd call myself break-even (which you'll come to understand is a significant achievement if you decide to continue with trading).

My first advice to you would be to pay for elite membership here on FIO. There's a reason it has been recommended so many times across so many posts here. There is a ton of information available in posts and journals and I can't think of a better place for someone starting out to learn than the webinars section. Through this reading and watching you can come to a better understanding of how the markets work, ways different people approach the markets, and how people's trading has evolved as they've matured in the markets. I don't know how many hours a day you have available to you to dedicate to the markets, but I'd probably recommend budgeting at least 500 hours of exploring this site and others, watching videos, and studying books before even thinking about opening a trading account. I spent around 2 years in this stage.

Next, once you've figured out how you understand the market, write down how you think you can profit from this knowledge. A journal here on FIO is an excellent place to post this.

After you have an idea of how you want to approach the market the next step is finding a reliable broker. Again, this site has a bunch of information on brokers. I trade Forex so there are many, many brokers out there who will offer ridiculous leverage - stay away from these people! I see you're in Canada, so look for a broker that is regulated by IIROC and is a member of the CIPF. This will ensure that if your broker goes under, your account (up to $1M) is guaranteed by the Canadian government. I haven't looked into Futures brokers in Canada, but I'm sure that there is a wealth of information here about them.

The next step is to actually start to trade. There has been much debate on here about whether or not SIM trading is effective training for psychological reasons. My view is that like most things in trading it will work for some and not for others. Some feel that unless there's real money on the line you don't get a true representation of how your emotional state will be. Others believe that you shouldn't risk a penny until you've proven that you can be successful on SIM for a period of time. My personal belief falls somewhere in the middle. I think that SIM is helpful to understand the platform that you're trading with and helps with development of a feel for the market. I don't think that it truly prepares a person emotionally though for watching your equity balance fluctuate in real time. I'd recommend spending a few months trading SIM before graduating to trading real money in very small size. You need to prove to yourself in this step that you can be consistently profitable over a large period of trades and a large time horizon. My plan at the moment is to not increase my risk above my current 0.1% per trade until I can show a positive expectancy on my last 10, 20, 50, & 100 trades. Depending on how many trades you place per day, the time this will take will be variable. I wouldn't recommend doing this for less than 3 months though before increasing your risk per trade.

Once you reach the stage that you're actually placing trades (whether through SIM or with extremely small size) I cannot stress enough the benefit of recording your trades in a journal here (either on elite or in the public section). I truly believe that I could've saved myself a couple of years of failure and frustration if I had done this from the start.

When you ask for a mentor here, realize that nobody on this site is getting paid. The registration fee for Elite membership goes toward offsetting a small portion of the money that Mike has taken out of his own pocket to run the site. The level of positivity here considering this, is truly amazing. I sometimes can't believe the amount of time that people take to help others. Realize that when someone is posting something here they are taking time away from their own screen or time spent on their other interests. Also realize that some of the people here can be making 4 figures an hour, or more, trading so asking them to mentor you for free is a big ask. I think the best way to approach the mentor situation can be seen by following the link below (it's in the free section) and reading the journal from page 1 (I haven't tagged anyone here because I don't want anyone to feel like they have to respond). Note the dates as well as you're reading through. The journal was started on October 11, 2015 and the owner of the journal posted almost every day for more than 2 months before receiving feedback. People here are willing to help out, but they need to see that the dedication and perseverance you've proven is worth their time.



Sorry for the length of this post, I didn't think I'd be typing this long when I started. One final thing that I think is important to understand before continuing is the time investment that you will need to put in. Below is my typical weekly schedule:
Mon-Fri:
6:00 - Wake and get ready for the day
6:45 - eat breakfast while reading market commentary and trying to get a feel for the current state of the market
7:45 - 9:00 - trade if the opportunity presents itself in the market
9:00 - 6:00/7:00 - work at the job that currently pays the bills
6:00 - 8:00 - eat supper and spend time with my girlfriend
8:00 - 9:00 or later - review the trades taken that day (it's important to be honest with yourself here and really dissect your performance), study other trading-related items
10:00 - 11:00 - hopefully have some more time to spend with my girlfriend or on something that relaxes me
11:00 - try be in bed so that my mind is refreshed for the next trading day - sleep is important for focus
Weekends:
I try to limit myself to only work on trading related stuff up until noon but often go over this self-imposed limit. I usually spend at least 4-6 hours reviewing the week that just passed, preparing for the week to come, and reading other items of interest for my trading development
I'm a big believer that the time you spend preparing and reviewing your trades (especially as a beginner) should be at the very minimum a one-to-one relationship with the time you spend trading. I don't think it's realistic to trade for less than an hour a day, so at a minimum starting out you need to be able to dedicate 2 hours a day plus time on the weekend to be successful. This is after the 500 hours of initial study. Brokers love to market trading as a quick and easy way to make some extra cash but it's not.

Hopefully there's at least one thing in here that helps!

Good luck!

MWG86, thank you so much for this lengthy (which i loved and really appreciate it) reply, I want to sign up so badly, but I am just waiting for my Uni to send me my tuition invoice for this upcoming year. you may be thinking what does $100 compare to like $8000+ tuition and like if you can't spend $100 right away then trading might not be for you.

But the reason why I am waiting unfortunately is because I need to know how much I have to pay and I'm estimating about $8800 and I have to pay all of that in one big lump sump payment because I'm not taking any loans (debt free ) and I that's how it has been for last 3 years (thankful to my parents for forcing me to get a job in my highschool days, that has made me tuition debt free). Pretty much I work all year and save every penny possible and then end up paying it all to tuition. So I am waiting to see what the figure is, so I can run some calculations, and stuff. But the moment I have enough cash to allocate, I am signing up ASAP.

Before I type further, I want to thank you for taking out the time to reply back to my post and giving me tips and suggestions that are truly helping me grow and understand the many difficulties you went through so I can learn from it and try not to make the same mistakes. After all, time is money, so thank you for taking out the time to help me out as I begin my journey.

I hope to start a journal soon and hopefully in the process develop my knowledge and understanding.

Thanks so much for the tips and suggestions MWG86 and thanks to everyone else who also gave an input to this thread.

I think I should clearly state, that I am not here to make the quick buck (on my very first initial exposure to trading, i thought there is potential, I mean after all who would pay you $100 bucks in a matter of minutes to 10-20 minutes) But thanks to futures.io I no longer view trading the same way as I did when I first came across trading. I am not in this for quick buck and I look to join the elite section very soon, just waiting to see the exact figure rather than my estimate and my paycheque won't come in time for my pay date so its very tight at the moment.

Best,

John

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  #14 (permalink)
san diego
 
Experience: Intermediate
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One easy thing you could do is start looking at the below link (Your Trading Coach). The information is excellent and he gives out a ton of information free of charge. He sells a course which is worth it, but you don't have to buy anything.

YourTradingCoach | Because You'd Rather Be Trading For A Living!

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Legendary Capt. Johnny Jameson
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@noobforlyfe...it's all bullshit...seriously you have a great attitude and the right mindset...money management should be no problem for you in the future. Elite futures.io is the way to go IMHO...but if not, there is more than you need without it I'm sure. Reach out, ask questions and be persistent. I can only offer you encouragement in your journey!

oh and btw...Lance Beggs is badass...straight up and he used to be a pilot just like me

...but all you need is right here, take advantage of it.

Johnny

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  #16 (permalink)
Boston, MA
 
 
Posts: 264 since Apr 2014

Oh my, I just caught a bit... Mr. noobforlyfe, you need to know that point #5 you asked is folly....

...
5) A few indicators (2-3) to just help you understand what the market MAY do and where most of the supply and demand is at...


No indicator can ever tell you what a market "may" do. You need to also use your own head to help fill in that gap of knowledge, to figure out what a market "may" do...But at that point, it is not strictly technical analysis and making moves based upon it. You are diving into the area of subjectivity that many traders face... The whole "feeling" thing, where mechanical systems can break down, trading plans break, etc.

I am ecstatic about your inquisitiveness, and have a great vibe from you on your precise questions, your fastidiousness and your craving for knowledge.

But take it from me. Do not rush it. If you rush it, you will fail and die. Please do not fail and die! Trading is not a get-rich-quick-thing! Take your time, learn it. Absorb it! Just chill! It will come!

Small steps.

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  #17 (permalink)
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart, SC
Trading: Emini ES, CL, USD/CAD
 
Posts: 424 since Jun 2016
Thanks: 1,379 given, 723 received


HoopyTrading View Post
Oh my, I just caught a bit... Mr. noobforlyfe, you need to know that point #5 you asked is folly....

...
5) A few indicators (2-3) to just help you understand what the market MAY do and where most of the supply and demand is at...


No indicator can ever tell you what a market "may" do. You need to also use your own head to help fill in that gap of knowledge, to figure out what a market "may" do...But at that point, it is not strictly technical analysis and making moves based upon it. You are diving into the area of subjectivity that many traders face... The whole "feeling" thing, where mechanical systems can break down, trading plans break, etc.

I am ecstatic about your inquisitiveness, and have a great vibe from you on your precise questions, your fastidiousness and your craving for knowledge.

But take it from me. Do not rush it. If you rush it, you will fail and die. Please do not fail and die! Trading is not a get-rich-quick-thing! Take your time, learn it. Absorb it! Just chill! It will come!

Small steps.

Thank you HoopyTrading for pointing that out, I am definitely trying to take it slow and not rushing into live trading (as eagerly as my brain wants to get my feet wet). I am hoping to start a journal soon and hopefully over there I can track my progress, and hopefully get some constructive feedback.

Thanks once again!

Best,

John

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