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Friendly vendor competition?


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Friendly vendor competition?

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  #1 (permalink)
 Dionysus 
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After the recent talk about just how much the trading marketplace seems to be overflowing with style-over-substance sites and products and vendors, and how many of them focus entirely on shrewd marketing as opposed to developing a working product, I was thinking that this forum might be in a unique position to help clear these muddied waters. This is just an idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see if it gained any traction. . .

What if we were to create/host a friendly ongoing competition that stripped away all of the nonsense and hype and potential for excuses, and allowed vendors to test their logic on a level playing field, keeping careful track of the results? This means a hands-off, automated strategy competition. I envision this competition to be similar to the automated strategy competitions that have been hosted on this forum before, with one VITAL caveat: Instead of having strategies that trade once or twice a week, sometimes even less, we would set a minimum of in-market-time per week, that, if not hit, would disqualify the competitor (or financial penalize somehow)? A calculation for each trade, such as "NumberOfContracts * TimeInMarket = X", and then we simply sum together all X values, for a cumulative total of single-contract-market-minutes, which I think is a decent overall gauge of market exposure, and a means to force enough market exposure to claim that the strategies have been properly tested. I'd hope that most vendors selling automated strategies should be able to put together a portfolio/grouping of strategies that are active enough to meet the minimum cutoff that would be established.

I'd want to add this caveat because it forces a much more accurate and efficient test of the abilities of a trader. Anyone can attain a nice net profit over a tiny handful of trades, even coasting on pure randomness and chaos, just as anyone can flip 'heads' 8 or 9 times out of 10, if given a few tries to do so. . but nobody is going to flip heads 900 times out of 1000 anytime soon. The randomness/chaos/chance decreases exponentially, of course, as the data pool increases.

This type of competition would be as close as we could come to an objective measure of actual EDGE encompassed within the products of these vendors. The winner would be whomever had the highest net profit at the end of the time period (perhaps approximately a month, or two?), and very clear and direct statistics could be updated regularly to show how the competition was progressing. Those vendors who did compete could have their net-profit balances permanently listed somewhere, immortalized for all to see, and if they performed well, I'd imagine this would be a significant boon for business.

I'd think any vendor with an effective and consistent product would jump at the chance to prove himself in such a public manner, and I really do envision a friendly competition, where all who are willing to face off are lauded by the community for doing so. . would be nice if it could be entirely friendly and supportive, and all-around positive in nature.

I'd even be willing to take an active role in setup and management of the competition, (though the 'playing field' should be an objective arbiter like Sam or someone else trusted implicitly by the community with a VPS to offer), and/or would absolutely love to compete myself, as I thrive on (friendly) competition. . would also be more than willing to help track down some other competitors.

That is, IF there is any real interest in this amongst futures.io (formerly BMT)'ers. . . I'd love to hear your thoughts, Mike, first and foremost. I DO think its possible to help reorient the marketplace a bit, in the direction of one where vendors rise or fall based upon merit and ability, as opposed to shrewdness, manipulation and exaggeration carrying the day.

Thoughts?

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  #3 (permalink)
 Inletcap 
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I will be following this thread.. I wonder how many swill sign up. Prove your worth and get free advertising- seems like a no brainier! The results would/will be amazing!

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  #4 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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It will never work. How many of these vendors prove their skill by posting broker statements (at a minimum)? Answer: none.

What you are asking for is the same. None will agree.

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  #5 (permalink)
 Dionysus 
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I fear you might be right, Mike. . . but the situation can't be all that bad, can it?

Is this truly a marketplace where virtually nothing of actual value is sold? Is it really a case where the marketplace is 99% snake oil salesmen trying to out-manipulate one another, all style and no substance, a complete and total sham across the board?

Even if they agreed to the challenge, and put in a decent showing. . even hovering around breakeven. . . this would at least be free publicity, and their foot in the door. . their name and website getting out there for public consumption, in exchange for their willingness to at least try to prove themselves and their products.

Is it really that grim?

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  #6 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Snakeoil is one thing, you can have good intentions and most likely still be a terrible trader.

When it comes to selling stuff, I think you need to demand proof they are good -- broker statements and real time documented trades that match the statements.

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  #7 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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I'd participate.

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  #8 (permalink)
 Dionysus 
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kevinkdog View Post
I'd participate.

Very happy to hear it. . .

I can try to coax some vendors out of their hidey-holes, but if all else failed, Kevin, I'd love for even just us to go toe to toe (though perhaps we can find one or two or three more takers on this forum), via a drastically scaled up competition where we pit portfolio vs portfolio, as opposed to single infrequently traded strategy against other infrequently traded strategy.

I personally believe (and I'm interested to know whether you feel the same) that its difficult to judge a trader, or his systematic trading abilities, or his specific strategies, until you have a data pool of at least a few hundred trades to look at.

I can remember when I first arrived here, the attitude towards mechanical trading seemed so hopeless and cynical. . . would love to see either (or both) of us prove that this doesn't need to be the case, and perhaps help give others hope to tread down this path with the additional confidence of knowing it *is* possible to have real success as a systematic trader, with a bit of effort, discipline, and help from others.

I'm still hoping I can find a brave vendor, somewhere, somehow. . .

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  #9 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Dionysus View Post
Very happy to hear it. . .

I can try to coax some vendors out of their hidey-holes, but if all else failed, Kevin, I'd love for even just us to go toe to toe (though perhaps we can find one or two or three more takers on this forum), via a drastically scaled up competition where we pit portfolio vs portfolio, as opposed to single infrequently traded strategy against other infrequently traded strategy.

I personally believe (and I'm interested to know whether you feel the same) that its difficult to judge a trader, or his systematic trading abilities, or his specific strategies, until you have a data pool of at least a few hundred trades to look at.

I can remember when I first arrived here, the attitude towards mechanical trading seemed so hopeless and cynical. . . would love to see either (or both) of us prove that this doesn't need to be the case, and perhaps help give others hope to tread down this path with the additional confidence of knowing it *is* possible to have real success as a systematic trader, with a bit of effort, discipline, and help from others.

I'm still hoping I can find a brave vendor, somewhere, somehow. . .

I'll participate in the originally stated contest - a vendor face off.

A members versus other members contest sounds like the Battle of The Bot contest, which was discontinued for lack of member participation.

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 Inletcap 
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Dionysus View Post
Very happy to hear it. . .

I can try to coax some vendors out of their hidey-holes, but if all else failed, Kevin, I'd love for even just us to go toe to toe (though perhaps we can find one or two or three more takers on this forum), via a drastically scaled up competition where we pit portfolio vs portfolio, as opposed to single infrequently traded strategy against other infrequently traded strategy.

I personally believe (and I'm interested to know whether you feel the same) that its difficult to judge a trader, or his systematic trading abilities, or his specific strategies, until you have a data pool of at least a few hundred trades to look at.

I can remember when I first arrived here, the attitude towards mechanical trading seemed so hopeless and cynical. . . would love to see either (or both) of us prove that this doesn't need to be the case, and perhaps help give others hope to tread down this path with the additional confidence of knowing it *is* possible to have real success as a systematic trader, with a bit of effort, discipline, and help from others.

I'm still hoping I can find a brave vendor, somewhere, somehow. . .

I know they exist, but I would just like to see one profitable system.. Just one realistic and profitable system and my life would be complete!

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  #11 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Inletcap View Post
I know they exist, but I would just like to see one profitable system.. Just one realistic and profitable system and my life would be complete!

Rather than looking for that one strategy, I always recommend that people develop it themselves (even it is just someone else's work, but modified by you). In the long run, that is the best way to go...

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 Inletcap 
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kevinkdog View Post
Rather than looking for that one strategy, I always recommend that people develop it themselves (even it is just someone else's work, but modified by you). In the long run, that is the best way to go...

Gave up on that years ago- as stated, I just want to see one working system. Seems like when you throw that out there, the common reply is what you said "develop yourself". Maybe one day someone will share one that they believe in.

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 Big Mike 
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Inletcap View Post
Gave up on that years ago- as stated, I just want to see one working system. Seems like when you throw that out there, the common reply is what you said "develop yourself". Maybe one day someone will share one that they believe in.

Check out @kevinkdog's threads and webinars. He has good material and has openly shared a great deal.

But how do you qualify a "working system"? How many times do you interfere with the system and still call it a system? How many times do you adjust parameters, or adjust which days it trades, or change the signals (always gotta "add a filter").

Even systems are largely discretionary in the way the manager of the system controls it or alters it or directs it.

Something that is rarely discussed on futures.io (formerly BMT) for whatever reason is portfolio trading using an algorithmic system with predefined rules. I still believe portfolio trading is basically the holy grail.

Automate this, for example, as a starting point:



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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Inletcap View Post
Gave up on that years ago- as stated, I just want to see one working system. Seems like when you throw that out there, the common reply is what you said "develop yourself". Maybe one day someone will share one that they believe in.


Sorry if you feel I gave you bad advice by saying "develop it yourself." I won't make that mistake again.

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 shodson 
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Dionysus View Post
What if we were to create/host a friendly ongoing competition that stripped away all of the nonsense and hype and potential for excuses, and allowed vendors to test their logic on a level playing field, keeping careful track of the results?

Isn't that what this and this are for?

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 Inletcap 
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kevinkdog View Post
Sorry if you feel I gave you bad advice by saying "develop it yourself." I won't make that mistake again.

Oh no- I just reread what I wrote and man did that come out wrong. My bad. I'm totally not a dick but that sure sounded like it.

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 Dionysus 
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shodson View Post
Isn't that what this and this are for?

Unfortunately no, not quite. . .

The key difference is the point I mentioned earlier, its the difference between gauging the results of just a few trades over a singular strategy, vs testing the performance of an entire portfolio. The fewer the strategies, instruments, markets and number of trades involved in a contest, the less accurate/valuable the results of the competition will be, as an accurate representation of skill/ability, imho.

If 10 users developed a single strategy completely at random, using no logic that they felt to be predictive or useful, and 10 other users spent a great deal of time on their single developed strategies and had great confidence in them, over a tiny number of trades there is a very significant chance a user from the former group would win the contest. . . due to sheer chance, randomness. However, vastly increase this number-of-trades, or time-in-market-of-all-trades-combined, and the chances of the best trader rising to the top increases significantly.

This is what put a slight damper on my excitement towards the battle of the bot competitions specifically. It seemed to me that a competition using such a small data pool is very likely to crown the *luckiest* trader over a short period of time, as opposed to the most skilled trader. . does this make sense?

This is not at all to diminish the importance of that competition, I think it was interesting and novel and useful, and brought some attention to systematic trading as a concept and practice. . . I was merely suggesting what would perhaps be a more comprehensive and exhaustive test of a systematic trader and their methods. I think if we went this route, and a few of us showed solid, consistent success over a reasonable period of time and significant number of trades, it could seriously change the way systematic trading is viewed, and could give others just starting down that path the confidence they need to continue.


Just a thought. . I'll begin the vendor search shortly here to see if I can find a few takers

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  #18 (permalink)
 Dionysus 
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Big Mike View Post
Check out @kevinkdog's threads and webinars. He has good material and has openly shared a great deal.

But how do you qualify a "working system"? How many times do you interfere with the system and still call it a system? How many times do you adjust parameters, or adjust which days it trades, or change the signals (always gotta "add a filter").

Even systems are largely discretionary in the way the manager of the system controls it or alters it or directs it.

Something that is rarely discussed on futures.io (formerly BMT) for whatever reason is portfolio trading using an algorithmic system with predefined rules. I still believe portfolio trading is basically the holy grail.

Automate this, for example, as a starting point:



Mike




This is an extremely important point. . . one of the most disturbing things about virtually the entire marketplace of vendors who market strategies, at least those that I've come across thus far, is that they always seem to (wisely, shrewdly, dishonestly) leave some wiggle room . . they leave a few parameters either undefined, or they have some settings that require user involvement, user tinkering. This is brilliant, of course, because when the strategy falls flat (and it almost certainly will, given enough time), the vendor can simply state 'well, you see, you had this setting at X, and it really should have been Y. . . learn from your mistake!'

I don't run a single strategy where every single variable isn't completely hard coded. There's absolutely no wiggle room, I don't change things. . . I have their entry times (time of day, day of week, etc) all hard coded, and its my personal belief that if you're using a decade or more of historical data to craft the strategy, you probably shouldn't be tinkering with it based upon the data from the past week or two or three. . in my experience, those who follow this practice tend to fare very badly.

Any strategy I create has to be a completely finished product, with nothing for me to subjectively or arbitrarily change or tweak over time. . . and I was stunned to see how often this isn't the case, and I'm still curious as to what the reasoning would be for this (leaving 'wiggle room' in a strategy, not setting everything in stone before its launch), other than dishonest (but effective) marketing tactics.

(Making an edit here to encourage users to follow Mike's advice regarding KevDog's posts and webinars, these are practically mandatory reading, imho, for those starting out down this path. . . this community owes him a big 'thank you' for his willingness to so openly share all that he has, as its such a rarity for successful/proven traders to be willing to show so many of their means and methods, concepts and ideas. . )

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  #19 (permalink)
 Portland 
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In my experience, the few vendors I know of that sell profitable systems right out of the box don't actively promote them largely because they don't want every Joe Schmo to have them. Some have some kind of robust "interview" process they make you go through, in addition to legal documents you have to sign before they let you buy.

From my point of view, they seem to be driven by a genuine desire to help people. But they're not willing to help just anyone.

Concerning giving the public access to their broker statements... I can think of several good reasons why the good trader-vendors aren't up for that. Unfortunately this doesn't help anyone build a case for or against them because obviously the bad ones refuse to provide broker statements as well.

Keep things complex. But not more complex then they need to be.
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 Big Mike 
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Portland View Post
In my experience, the few vendors I know of that sell profitable systems right out of the box don't actively promote them largely because they don't want every Joe Schmo to have them. Some have some kind of robust "interview" process they make you go through, in addition to legal documents you have to sign before they let you buy.

In my opinion, anyone that believes that is just naive and lacking all experience and using poor judgment.

Vendors making you sign legal documents is simply to prohibit you from writing about them, including how much of a waste of time it was after you (if you) learn from your mistake.

I'm making generalizations on "systems" that are for sale to retail users for say under $1,000,000.

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  #21 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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@Dionysus - Did you ever get any other vendor to agree to join the competition?

Unfortunately, you probably never will find any, because this is what typically happens in this industry...

I had a friend ask for "proof" from one of these trading room vendors, and here is the reply he got:

"We make money every month in a Sim account. A Sim account mimics a live account to within 95% accuracy. If you would like to see SIM data, we would be happy to provide you with it. "

I guess at least he admits he doesn't trade live. I'd love to know how he provide the 95% accuracy claim, since he has no live trades to compare to SIM.

Anyhow, I'm sure that vendor is a SIM millionaire!

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 fiverr 
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IMHO, most competitions are useless because they have survivorship bias and are only focused on profit gained without the consideration for the risk taken. See below, the IBs and brokers want to encourage trading so that they will earn on the commissions; thus, most competitions' results are based on luck and not trading edge.

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 Dionysus 
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kevinkdog View Post
@Dionysus - Did you ever get any other vendor to agree to join the competition?

Unfortunately, you probably never will find any, because this is what typically happens in this industry...

I had a friend ask for "proof" from one of these trading room vendors, and here is the reply he got:

"We make money every month in a Sim account. A Sim account mimics a live account to within 95% accuracy. If you would like to see SIM data, we would be happy to provide you with it. "

I guess at least he admits he doesn't trade live. I'd love to know how he provide the 95% accuracy claim, since he has no live trades to compare to SIM.

Anyhow, I'm sure that vendor is a SIM millionaire!

Haha. Yes, sadly that response is par for the course. .

Step 1: Create 15 sim accounts, place different strategies to trade on each
Step 2: Choose the best 2 or 3 to show to the world to prove your trading prowess
Step 3: Profit


I was actually so disheartened by my post and the responses therein, that I, ironically, shelved my own web site I'd created. . . indefinitely, quite probably permanently.

I had high hopes of a lively competition, and proving what can be done via systematic trading, with discipline and effort and listening intently to proper mentors (such as yourself). . . but after learning how vendors are viewed by the community at large, and justifiably so, I don't know that I want to enter that fray, esp as the profits would be minimal relative to trading.

Also, Fiverr, you make an excellent point, in regards to luck/randomness/market-chaos being a massive factor in many of these competitions. This is why I specifically asked that the competitions require X amount of trades. . . with a large enough data pool, the chances of your success (or failure!) being attributed to luck and chance are greatly minimized.

I'm still more than open to any sort of competition along those lines, I'd absolutely love it. . but I have yet to met a single vendor confident enough in their end result products to engage in said competition, and from the sounds of it, I likely won't. If this changes, or if anyone can round up even one or two vendors who are willing to engage in some friendly competition, I'd be thrilled to do so.

I still tend to think it'd be a great learning experience for the community, especially those traveling down the same path of systematic/automated trading, and especially especially those that are fairly new to this path.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

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  #24 (permalink)
 fiverr 
Calgary
 
Experience: None
Platform: TradeStation, MT4
Trading: ES, Stocks
 
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Dionysus View Post
Haha. Yes, sadly that response is par for the course. .

Step 1: Create 15 sim accounts, place different strategies to trade on each
Step 2: Choose the best 2 or 3 to show to the world to prove your trading prowess
Step 3: Profit


I was actually so disheartened by my post and the responses therein, that I, ironically, shelved my own web site I'd created. . . indefinitely, quite probably permanently.

I had high hopes of a lively competition, and proving what can be done via systematic trading, with discipline and effort and listening intently to proper mentors (such as yourself). . . but after learning how vendors are viewed by the community at large, and justifiably so, I don't know that I want to enter that fray, esp as the profits would be minimal relative to trading.

Also, Fiverr, you make an excellent point, in regards to luck/randomness/market-chaos being a massive factor in many of these competitions. This is why I specifically asked that the competitions require X amount of trades. . . with a large enough data pool, the chances of your success (or failure!) being attributed to luck and chance are greatly minimized.

I'm still more than open to any sort of competition along those lines, I'd absolutely love it. . but I have yet to met a single vendor confident enough in their end result products to engage in said competition, and from the sounds of it, I likely won't. If this changes, or if anyone can round up even one or two vendors who are willing to engage in some friendly competition, I'd be thrilled to do so.

I still tend to think it'd be a great learning experience for the community, especially those traveling down the same path of systematic/automated trading, and especially especially those that are fairly new to this path.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Dionysus,

A while back I started the post below to challenge some of the members here. I believe that it was a baby step just to compare each other performance report. Unfortunately, the discussion did not have a lot of takers. My thoughts were very simple. Lets compare and push each other to develop the best systematic solution possible without any aggressive/compounding money management. Once we have a handful of systems, we can trade them with SIM accounts. Once we have more members involved, we can start a pool/fund to trade the system live.


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 PeakGrowth 
Sydney, Australia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart, IRESS
Broker: IB, IQFeed
Trading: ES, SPI, ASX stocks, options
 
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Dionysus View Post
Haha. Yes, sadly that response is par for the course. .

Step 1: Create 15 sim accounts, place different strategies to trade on each
Step 2: Choose the best 2 or 3 to show to the world to prove your trading prowess
Step 3: Profit


I was actually so disheartened by my post and the responses therein, that I, ironically, shelved my own web site I'd created. . . indefinitely, quite probably permanently.

I had high hopes of a lively competition, and proving what can be done via systematic trading, with discipline and effort and listening intently to proper mentors (such as yourself). . . but after learning how vendors are viewed by the community at large, and justifiably so, I don't know that I want to enter that fray, esp as the profits would be minimal relative to trading.

Also, Fiverr, you make an excellent point, in regards to luck/randomness/market-chaos being a massive factor in many of these competitions. This is why I specifically asked that the competitions require X amount of trades. . . with a large enough data pool, the chances of your success (or failure!) being attributed to luck and chance are greatly minimized.

I'm still more than open to any sort of competition along those lines, I'd absolutely love it. . but I have yet to met a single vendor confident enough in their end result products to engage in said competition, and from the sounds of it, I likely won't. If this changes, or if anyone can round up even one or two vendors who are willing to engage in some friendly competition, I'd be thrilled to do so.

I still tend to think it'd be a great learning experience for the community, especially those traveling down the same path of systematic/automated trading, and especially especially those that are fairly new to this path.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Nobody would do it because if they fail or don't come first they would lose customers, it's got a low payout ratio.

Plus most of them are full of bs, but you know that already lol.

Merry Christmas!

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  #26 (permalink)
 Dionysus 
Monterey, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Trading: CL
 
Posts: 80 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 28 given, 99 received


fiverr View Post
Dionysus,

A while back I started the post below to challenge some of the members here. I believe that it was a baby step just to compare each other performance report. Unfortunately, the discussion did not have a lot of takers. My thoughts were very simple. Lets compare and push each other to develop the best systematic solution possible without any aggressive/compounding money management. Once we have a handful of systems, we can trade them with SIM accounts. Once we have more members involved, we can start a pool/fund to trade the system live.


Howdy Fiverr. . . I will take a look when I'm home and able in a few hours. .

I'm actually trading over 60 systematic strats live on a daily basis, and have been for about half a year now. . ran well over 150 in sim mode for nearly a year before that. . . so I'm not sure how I'd fit in there, but I am intrigued, and promise to take a closer look, I always like the idea of mutually beneficial collab, when/where it can happen. Also, I always love to see people willing to test their mettle on this daunting path, and even more so to see consistent success. . .

My ultimate goal is a bit diff in that I'm attempting to create a system to create systems, as opposed to just a few winning systems. . and my god is it tricky. : )

That being said, I'm enjoying every minute. Well, most minutes. . heh.

I'll get back to you shortly

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  #27 (permalink)
 Dionysus 
Monterey, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Trading: CL
 
Posts: 80 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 28 given, 99 received


PeakGrowth View Post
Nobody would do it because if they fail or don't come first they would lose customers, it's got a low payout ratio.

Plus most of them are full of bs, but you know that already lol.

Merry Christmas!

Sadly I think you're right. . but perhaps they could be convinced otherwise if the atmosphere were encouraging enough. I, for one, would give a company/vendor immense credit solely for being willing to test their mettle in such an open and transparent manner, for all to see. . it'd also provide an outlet for them to discuss the logic behind their means and methods (not necessarily specifics, more broad-level details), to perhaps prove to the community at large that their approach has some merit.

As important as 'live' results are, as pointed out several times in this thread and others, they're only extremely valid over a large enough data pool, or a long enough stretch of time, or ideally both. . so if they knew that they wouldn't be written off if they happened to face a small stretch of bad luck during the competition (and perhaps this could be solved with a semi-permanent, ongoing competition?), this might help encourage participation. . .

I'm still giving this all some thought. I *do* still think its possible. . if anyone can rustle up even a single vendor willing to compete, its a start, and I'd immediately be much more optimistic about our chances

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  #28 (permalink)
 Forexoil 
Bangkok thailand
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Multicharts, ninjatrader, tradestation, fxcm
Trading: Es forex
 
Posts: 116 since Jan 2015
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Actual broker statements checked against a live Dom in a video room, over many months are the only valid indicator of vendor truth.
It's why almost none will supply.
I just wasted a few hours in kongzana room which had neither.

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  #29 (permalink)
 dom64 
London, UK
 
Experience: Master
Platform: sierra chart, Jigsaw Trading, Bookmap
Trading: 6E futures, Cable
 
Posts: 93 since Aug 2012

Hi Gents,

I would love the idea of a competition! I think competition is very healthy indeed!

On the SIM note, I think you could make it as close to the real thing as it gets (not sure how to work it out as a 95% percentage or else as such but still), or totally irrelevant. I have tested many strategies, trialed some platforms, Brokers and so on, on a SIM basis, and ignoring the queue issue, I always tried to do exactly what I would with one of my real accounts, as it otherwise is a fairly pointless exercise.

On the performance/statements side, and without getting into the question of whether or not one might be able to fake such things, I am not convinced it mirrors very well the worthiness of a training course or Trading room, but while negative results will not attract followers (why would you follow someone who looses when you can do that yourself!?), I am not sure positive ones are a guarantee of success for trainees/learners: Experience can not be taught, and this is very much so the quintessential part of success, assuming one works with a sensible method (I have trained many people and have always shown results and live trading to those who want to see the way I work in action, but those who make the effort to work hard are unvariably the ones who succeed, and those who don't fail, regardless of my performance, which are very much linked to the knowledge of the markers and instruments I trade, experience, trading capital, etc).


Having said all that I am working on a screen sharing room, where many traders can come and share their screens, to show live trading on live accounts, as I think this is a very good learning process, and a very good addition to theory, but I can't think of a reason, why so many rooms or training courses, most often fail to show live trading, and I have been scratching my head wondering why so few people offer that..?

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