I'm doing a TST combine as my profile says so am not completely unbiased. Some competition for TST can't hurt and the free demo is nice but I would dispute some of the other points.
Duties - TST has optional classes, chatrooms and training but they aren't requirements for attendance or participation.
Trading - Trading is done on the relevant exchange. I don't know what it means when it says trading is only available in other companies' rooms.
Ease of Trading - TST has trading rules for their combines and live training but it is basically a profit target and loss limits. I doubt there are any successful traders that do not use Daily,Weekly, Monthly loss limits.
Rules on Indices - I don't know what 'strict, mostly crude' 'up to 9' means but with TST you can trade any US index. Once funded and profitable you can trade some of the European products. A lot of people who pass the combine have done it on crude but that is their choice. Scaling up - 'Not allowed' isn't true. This is the TST funded trader scaling plan https://topsteptrader.desk.com/customer/portal/articles/1950862-funded-trader-scaling-plan
Stoploss and shut off: This varies depending on your combine and if live and scaling up you can request increases in your loss limit.
Also 'Boutique Prop Firm' suggests small and I don't know if that is necessarily a good selling point. I will be interested to look at their website though once it is completed.
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I sent them an email and used your feedback... thanks. Let's see what they reply. good to have competition! What i like about these guys is no monthly fees!
Not an exchange member, unclear on reporting income for taxes, no real outline of their funding process, and clearly they don't have a whole lot of money in the grand scheme of things. I don't see the advantage over other firms.
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Talked to a guy who is on their platform since June.... He likes them a lot... i believe they have 3 other traders. It's looks good to me! better and more competition, that's what i like. We traders especially the 10+ yrs ones need companies like this so we can make it!!
I'm new to futures.io (formerly BMT) and Elite trader... i posted a few months on ET but not the same topic and found a lot of weirdos there.
futures.io (formerly BMT) offers discounts and i like his youtube channel.... again, i'm new to forums and this. I am a member at GTR! Excellent room! live calls and all... wait let me write a new post on that!
Just a thought, sure the guy was excited about his new website and wanted to get some attention...attention away from the big dogs at TST.....can't really blame him. He may very well have a viable company OR maybe lots of money there in Kuwait. Who knows...but wouldn't go so far to say he's a fraud because we don't have any evidence ONLY that he was posting to promote his site posting under a different name or something....basically trying to get free marketing.
From what I see he's not charging anything.....no payment for combine and other fees!
I don't care if he's a transsexual transvestite from Transylvania named Rocky IF he can fund and (perhaps he's an extension of some Oil family with a few million dollars and he's looking for traders that can win) he pays 30% so I don't see anyway to lose or specifically to be defrauded.
Of course I won't join him for 30%....i'll take 80% with TST for sure.
I have been a vendor for years on the site and have been as such from day one of participation.
@Big Mike never rejected anyone for being a vendor.
He could have come as a vendor, participated, added insight, and gained some customers the legit way. Instead, he chose his intro by trashing his competition. Not nice!
Matt
Optimus Futures
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Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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oh, i guess i missed, when he said, "I am a member at GTR!", (perhaps a friend of Trader Simon Y.?) I very recently read online where the GTR was exposed as a fraud. Global Trade Room - Trading Schools.Org Oh, even one of the Titans of the trading rooms! How mightily they mayest crumble.
I have never posted anything on this website but feel I need to since I have experience working with Futuresprofile.com and SAS. He set me up with a 20 day free trial to prove my trading skill before he funds me. He has not asked me for any money. I am halfway through the trial and looking forward to getting funded. I know of two other people who recommended SAS who are honest and I respect their opinions. I am not too sure what this post will do but I have found through experience that I have to make my own opinions. As of now I have not sent him any money and as long as that continues and he gives me a funded account I don't see how this is a scam. I can keep everybody posted through this process and l will give you all my honest opinion.
I don't know why SAS75 did not come forward with his identity for being the owner of Futureprofile website but all i can say is that his company is legit and he walks the talk.Started with a demo on his company and i am now managing a funded account - the payouts are weekly with profit sharing @ 50-50. I don't usually do this kind of vouching stuff.But just because people are praising TST and badmouthing Futuresprofile - i thought i would pitch in my two cents.
I have just completed a 20 day free trail to get funded at no cost to me. Free demo account was provided. I was left completely alone to get on with it and prove myself, no marketing, emails,….. ext. and all that BS which is great. I failed to get funded. My experiences was so positive that I emailed and thanked him for the opportunity
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[Thursday, November 05, 2015 9:37 PM] pepiolas lobo:
<<< First of all, let me say that I have been a long time member in bigmiketrading. I have alot of respect for the owner and administrator of this site but I have to set things straight about futuresprofile.
I got introduced to the owner of futuresprofile through a trading room. I looked into bigmike´s reviews and I still went ahead and allowed SAS, the owner, to fund me. When I got the broker contract (Vankar) to have trading rights, I saw his name and one has only to put his name on google to realize that this is in no way sketchy or a scam.
The way he promoted himself in bigmike was not the most fruitful;however, I truly believe he didn´t do it to deceive. In any case, I got a 25k account with Vankar where I could trade and everyday Vankar would send me my trading reports as if it was my own account, plus I always had the choice to withdraw profits.
I did hit the loss limit so I got closed out but just to say futuresprofile is for real. Everything will be done with Vankar (a broker like AMP, Interactive Brokers or any other major). He just puts the money in so there´s no dealing with futuresprofile.
I will highly recommend you to try it because once Vankar sends you the trading rights on his account and you see who he is (he cannot lie to a US broker and open an account). The rules are more benevolent than any other prop.
I am writing this review because I got pleasently surprised and had to say something about a place that looks like a sketchy scam but in reality is a legit business that may rival and even be better than many other props.
I am in no way affiliated with futuresprofile and I can email people who are interested my exchange of emails with the owner of futuresprofile so that they see that this is a legit futures prop firm. Why this interest in defending him? Because there will be many traders that are suspicious about this prop because of all the forum posts but these posts connote a picture that could not be further from the truth and because I am grateful to the owner that he gave me the opportunity to trade for him.
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Thats the way I look at it too......as i said before....
WHO CARES if he was trying to PROMOTE his service with another name (basically saying, "hey guys look at this good service"), lol.....childish, YES but whatever! If one can get funded (as you did yourself) then why not! THERE IS NOTHING TO LOSE!
In my opinion there was no LYING ABOUT IDENTITY, this is not a court of law, just a forum to post stuff about trading....he posted in an anonymous name saying to check out the servive (bypassing some loopholes here)
Anyway it's about TIME someone else offers competition to TOpStepTrader and for FREE too!
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Step 2:
Trial for 4 weeks (20 days). Maximum 3 contracts in 3 markets at one given time. Starting $25,000.
- Make sure your account doesn't fall below $22,500
- Maximum daily loss above -$1,000
You get funded if :
- daily loss is less -1000
- and total loss in 20 days is less - 2500
No profit target ?
You can loose max. 2499 and get funded ?
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Those of you who say he didn't lie about his identity should read the thread. It's only 3 pages long.
He intentionally and willfully deceived the members of the community. I would strongly encourage people to not trust someone who is so brazen about lying.
I've signed up with MES CAPITAL for a FREE trial last month and unfortunately failed (greed screwed me over). I didn't receive any spam e-mail or any marketing stuff from them. I have a friend who got funded and lost $5k and they didn't take anything from him and he still has another chance to get funded again after 3 months. This is the best win win situation, you are not paying anything to go to trial, even if you lose money after you get funded nobody slaps your wrist. Basically this is risk free and stress free partnership, it's every trader's dream. Another positive perspective regarding MES is that they helped me see some mistakes and received advice on how to improve,all for FREE. Who does that ? Only someone that wants to help traders.
Don't trust my word for it guys, go see for yourself. You'll have nothing to lose.
I just got funded by MES Capital. I traded for 18 days and grew the account up over $3000. I talked to SAS and he decided to fund me before the 20 day trial was over. My live is account is active and will keep you all posted.
Very nice sgarber1973. I wish you all the best and trade well. I do know SAS is not shy when seeing potential, therefor you absolutely got it my friend that's for sure.
I sent my most recent AMP statements in for the DAX, as well as my best week on bunds in August. They gave me only CME products to choose from. So now, in addition to my own account, I'm paper trading the Aussie and the yen....
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The fact that MES is associated with GTR room is even better. MES CAPITAL is literally helping traders in need of funds, you don't have to pay to trade DEMO, just freaking prove you can trade and that's it, you get funded and in the future maybe scaled up to $1 million.
GTR Room is not a fraud either, they teach Volume profile which actually WORKS if you spend some time to learn it.
I am not doing this for marketing purposes, they don't even need marketing anymore, word travels fast. I am simply a member and regarding funding for traders there's no better option than MES. Don't trust my word for it, go see for yourself, you have nothing to lose, NOTHING.
I started with an account of 15k USD after i sent my live DAX trading statements into them. They said i had to trade CME products for the try out, so i chose the 6J (Yen) and the 6A (Aussie dollar), other than, these rules:
I ramped my P/L up to 1200 in a week and a half or so. Then last week i went short the 6A with two contracts. I had to wear my total P/L as heat through the Oz Employment announcement, but i still held onto my premise that risk aversion and the Fed rise in the background would put a drag on the spike and the weak longs would start to liquidate. I'm just a whisker from the goal of 3000 in profit by the 22nd of December.
A few things that might hurt me when they consider this:
1.) the heat to my P/L i took while riding out the news spike
2.) holding through the night
3.) my last contract was closed automatically due to the end of the week and contract role.
So, I'll keep plugging away anyway...no news is good news i guess. I traded this while still trading my AMP account on the Dax, so it didn't have my full attention, perhaps that explains something....
Cheers,
XS
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That's a requirement for 20% profit, in 20 days, on a $15k account.
That's hugely demanding, compared with (for example) the TopStep requirements, for which the profit target is a fraction of that, and without the time-limit, too.
I spent a couple hours talking to the owner of MES, he is a decent guy, I think the thread title is doing him a great disservice as he doesnt BS when you talk with him.
There is no fees othen then what youd expect for a basic trader, buy your computer, open an account and trade, he pays all fees. And there is no "test" fees like you get wth other capital trade funders, this is a good deal for traders who dont quaiify or cant fund their own account. 50% is better then nothing, and no gimick "combind" fees: you either get funded or you dont, there is no paying to find out.
Now that I have talked with him, I understand why the rules of the forum were broken, I think Mike should call him and get the situation between them resolved.
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He is a good guy, sure he made a mistake here, but does he really need to be crucified for it? I guess Im coming at this from a different world, in mine when someone screws up, even on purpose, I forgive them and move on.
This is a guy whos basically giving away money to potential traders, Im not going to defend him any more, but does he really need to have to wear the scarlet letter forever?
And yes, I lie too, every time my wife asks me if her ass is too big, I paint a big smile on my face and say "No sweetheart", everyone lies.
Well i managed to achieve the goal, according to my (Ninja) records. However, for some reason they have not counted the trades on last Friday that were closed out Saturday AM, on my account...
Monday was quite frustrating, got caught in some chop and then lost my connection as a loser swung too far into the red for my liking while i was occupied....
Yesterday however i was short the Yen going before Europe opened, thinking the short covering would put some pressure on the 6J. I held it over night, exited for a nice win on 2 contracts and was short again this morning on a tight stop, which was taken out for a small loss.
I did much better when i was able to focus on this instead of trading the Dax as well...shame its a demo.
I think my understanding of context has helped allot in trading currency, especially the 6J. That and the 6E are very associated with risk on / off with the Euro the new carry trade poster child. I had more success with the 6A, as it contributed the bulk of profits on the demo try out. Most of these trades were ideas associated with context and then trades executed at levels that i determined from a long term composite volume profile.
Certainly not a very large sample of trades though, personally i think a try out like this should last longer to see how one goes over a longer period.
Time will tell if they pass me onto the next phase or not.
MES may (or may not) be legit. However the way it went about to advertise itself is definitely. .."cheap". The other day it went to TST squawk radio and advertise itself in the chatroom. Definately no class.
That's funny. I bet he got short shrift from John and Eddie.
I was walking past my gym the other day and saw a big guy outside handing out fliers as I approached. Thought he must be a new personal trainer as I didn't recognise him. Then I saw the gym manager run out the front door with a bucket and tip water all over his head. Turns out he was a rival gym owner trying to poach customers. I know it's business but really, some people have got no shame.
MES is not a business because they do not take money. I don't think they care about reviews! LOL. When someone is a business they care about reviews. MES from my experience is a free platform for us to trade and earn a living for free. Therefore, do you guys actually think management at MES cares about forums and reviews?! What a joke! I tried them out and I love em! They do not even spam you! they do not market anything. LOVE MES!
That's almost comical, and highly ironic, when you look at how much more demanding and difficult their terms are than TST's, and at how poor their profit-share is, compared with TST's.
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I guess I'm old school and believe that dishonest people shouldn't be trusted. He clearly had no problem lying about this, you really think this was the exception and that he doesn't lie about other things in his business?
You told me he had good reason to break the rules so he could promote his business aka good reason to lie about his identity. I'm waiting to hear it...
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I just want to lay out some FACTS.
Over the 6+ years this forum has existed, countless (hundreds) of vendors have come here solely to promote their business. In the process, their tactics include:
- lying about their identity,
- creating multiple accounts,
- pretending to be end users and talking about how fantastic the company is,
And much more.
So obviously it raises eyebrows for me when a company that is so blatantly dishonest receives glowing reviews from people, because my experience shows that it is not outside the norm for vendors to create multiple accounts and pretend to be "normal people" and give themselves glowing reviews.
I also find it fascinating that even in the face of bad information about a company, many people (real people) still throw that out the window and want to try the product anyway. This holds true for all vendors, even ones selling $5000 "mentorship" programs.
I see countless examples on the forum where a thread is loaded with negative experiences from genuine users, and yet new people still constantly want to pursue their product/service.
What does this tell me?
That the trading vendor business is booming, because people are desperate for quick fix solutions to make them money. You can call it gullible, stupidity, ignorance, etc, but fact remains that these vendors make tens of millions of dollars in this industry on the backs of people that lack the experience to recognize their ridiculous business model.
It's a real shame the CFTC doesn't step in and take some action. Of course, it has in many cases, but certainly not in the majority of scams that a lot of vendors are running.
Let me also add that after I catch these scum red handed and ban them, they immediately run to other sites and post defamatory statements that say how fantastic they are and how terrible I am.
So I guess in the end, you have to make a decision as to who you think is more honorable and truthful. Me, this site, or someone wanting to sell you something. Personally, I've posted six months of trading statements, real-time calls, etc etc etc that showed me as a very profitable trader, probably in the top 0.1% on the site. I did this to show it can be done, not to sell anything. I did this to try and help people, to get them to stop making all the mistakes that I see most rookies make (ie: scalping).
All the info you need is right here in the community from good people spending their days here sharing openly.
Stop chasing vendors for a quick fix. The only way to be a good trader is to do the work yourself.
The owner of the site was caught posting positive comments about himself under an assumed name, obviously to drum up business by fooling people with a story about good experiences that had never happened -- yet he, and his site, continue to receive supporting comments by forum members.
I have to see this as a willful desire to believe in the face of the simplest evidence.
I'm not knocking anyone here who does believe -- I am saying that it is amazing that anyone will still do so. Now, for all I know, the whole thing might be legit, except for the little detail of flagrant dishonesty in his self-promotion. If that's not a big enough red flag that something is up, I don't see what would be.
Be careful, folks.
Bob.
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I said now that Ive talked to him, I understand why he broke the rules, I dont imply that understanding is agreeing, nor that by understanding, it was a good reason, it was absolutly not.
My basic estimate of him is that he is a simple guy, not technically inclined, and english is not his native language. He just happens to have a ton of money, wants to get it working in the market, and probably didnt read the forum rules. My opinion of him is that he is not some super evil mastermind.
And again, none of that is justification, he is not justified breaking forum rules.
Fyi, I am not capitalized by him, I roll my own bank. I have no business relationship. I got involved in this because someone read this thread, and then used it to try to shame (MESs owner) into leaving the private skype room we were in. A place where he (MES) treated eveyone with respect and he was hounded down by some crusader. It was shameful, and his attack was breaking the rules of that skype room in order for him to do this shaming.
Lots of people in the skype room saw this, and that is why this thread came back to life, go to the souce of the attack and make sure eveyone knows the details, good or bad.
This vendor trolls several trading rooms and boasts of his services. He steers members of the rooms to his brokers (which rebate him a handsome sum) There is NOTHING for FREE !
These brokers he steers you to are NFA registered (most of them).
IF you get approached to do business with one of these "bait and switch" approaches from this guy, then just keep a record of the info and send it to the NFA under a formal complaint. While many of these educational scammers are not regulated by the industry, there can be some recourse with the brokers that benefit from their scamming techniques if we follow the trail and send it to the NFA. Im not saying I think the NFA can really regulate this, but we might squash a few flies and save some of our friend some capital.
Remember anything NOT disclosed to you that costs you money is just not right, and also remember( NFA or not) there is ALWAYS a recourse if you are the victim of a fraud !
Here's an in depth review with a lot of research. Summary below, but go to link for the in-depth analysis.
Summary
A trading firm that purports to fund traders if they pass a "free" trading test. However, the trading "test" has nearly zero disclosure as to what is required to become a funded trader. Company promises to fund trader up to one million dollars, however company refuses to verify if these trading funds actually exist. Company refuses to disclose whether any traders have been funded. Company has zero transparency and no person is willing to claim ownership of company. The company claims tight affiliations with highly dubious trading educators which leads one to assume that the company is nothing more than a lead generating scheme for trading educators and futures brokers. The logical conclusion is this appears to be a "one man band" with a moderately sized trading account that is maybe willing to take a chance on funding a few retail traders. Not a serious prop trading firm with verifiable credentials
Its sad that the worst review site, run by an admitted criminal fraudster, who doles out good reviews to companies who pay him kickbacks, is your source of info.
What you should do, or have done (with anything) is if a site/claim/ad brings up questions, you contact the company directly. I know this is the digital age, but a simple phone call is not really that hard to make.
I made contact with MES, mostly as a result of a chatroom discussion as well as this thread, here is what I found out, freely given, and later verified by real traders who did real trials and/or got funded:
-You pick your own platform, free or paid, it just must be compatable with Rhythmic.
-You take your trial (it can be Sim or Live)
-You send in your results. Unlike other props, you pay nothing for your trial, unless you choose a non free data source. Your trial doesnt have any special requirements, not even Rhythmic, and you can even use any Demo account from a broker.
-After your claimed trades are reviewed, assuming you are accepted, you are then asked to apply for an account with one of the MES brokers. You dont fund the account, you just open it with specific instructions so your account can be tied to MES
-Once its oen, you give the account number to MES and they fund it.
-Then you setup your trade platform and start trading.
-You do not pay any commisions, you do not pay for data feed-- All fees come from the trading account which you paid nothing into.
-You then prove that your trial results are matched by winning trades on the live account.
-The better you do, the higher you get funded. I was not told what the criteria is, but my best guess is that it depends largely on their gut feelings on how you are doing and if you are worth greater risk or not.
-You can request 50% of the increases be sent to you as your pay for your work, I cant remember if he said once a week or once a month, but I think its once a week.
So that is what I learned with just simple basic communication, and verified by me also talking to people who got funded.
The things I learned from talking to others (not verified by asking MES), is that the owner/funder is from Kuwait, made his money from working in the oil industry or got the money from his families company, wanted to break out on his own, wants to make the big bucks from the futures markets but doesnt know how to trade all that well himself.
Considering that we traders can get 50% of the profits and all we need to do is trade, ie work the job, and we dont hold any risk nor pay any fees, I'd say this prop firm is a pretty good deal.
Compare that with other prop firms in the US who might promise you 80%, but you have to pay for "combine" fees, which are not refunded if you fail.
In an industry where there is over a 90% failure rate among traders (some say its 96%), and where some props are collecting a heck of a lot of money from failing traders, the MES deal is the best one I have seen yet.
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If I compare them on that basis, MES seems to me to emerge dreadfully badly from the comparison: you can take a TST Combine for fees starting at $95, and that $95 includes the $85 you'd otherwise have to pay to CME for the data-feed - that seems a tiny price to pay in exchange for the huge difference in payout, once funded: the comparison there is between 50% (MES) and 100% of the first $5,000 and 80% of all future profits (TST).
That's without even including in the comparison all the additional services and facilities available through TST, their long track-record, responsive service, and perhaps most importantly their apparently very different behavioural standards.
It seems to me that many people who have done any due dilgence worth talking about will find such a decision something of a "no-brainer".
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And Emmett openly confessed to his fraud past and writes on it in detail, and writes in detail how he makes his money from the site. So a convicted fraudster going after the frauds. That makes him even more qualified. And he definitely isn't easy on anyone, unless he can prove they aren't a fraud.
I'll be waiting on your 'kickback' proof. As a matter of fact, you post it, I'll go to his site and ask him directly, and I will get a reply. He's hiding from no one. MES is. Read the whole review. Why does MES shroud themselves in secrecy?
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Although I'm not a huge fan of TST, (they have improved since I first posted here), the economics in comparing them to MES easily comes out in favor of TST, with one proviso; namely, you have a proven consistent trading edge and refrain from getting addicted to paying for combines if you don't. If you pay for and pass one combine, get funded you now receive a 100% payout on the first $5K of profits and then 80% thereafter. You don't need a PhD. in mathematics to understand that deal is better than a 50% payout from MES.
I don't know why TST made improvements to their business model, but having some competition must have played a role in their decision. All in all, it's good for the profitable trader who wants to have no risk with his capital.
Seems to be a lot of support for MES since Emmett re-reviewed them per Cloudy's post. While MES seems rough around the edges, it seems that anyone involved with them, from what I can tell, has had positive experiences. As Zxeses continued to point out, THEY HAVE NO FEEs so you are not risking anything! They have to spend the time with you, they pay your data fees etc, and you get to give it a go with nothing ($$) from you. Yes, their splits are lower, but you have NOTHING to lose. Hello?
I don't know about you guys, but if I am interested in trading with OPM, and they aren't asking me for ANY MONEY, I don't know why anyone that is interested in this sort of thing wouldn't give them a shot. What is there to lose?
No I am not a shill for them. I am not even interested in this sort of thing. I just like to hear that there are legit situations out there that in your worst case scenario, you lose NOTHING but your time. That is virtually unheard of. Right or wrong??
The guy did screw up in his attempts to market himself. I admit that. Emmett had a hard time in his first review with them also... I get that. They aren't the most polished or professional company around...
Emmett from tradingschools is an ex-con... I get it... If you really, really read how Emmett writes, I think he is doing a good thing over there with what he is trying to do. Perhaps it is a bit much for one guy and a small staff to handle, but you have to start somewhere. I don't think for a minute he is getting paid for reviews. He seems to let all the comments post and no one out there is saying he is not doing so. I truly believe, this is a rare instance where the guy is reformed and trying to help honest vendors benefit and struggling traders trying to find real help in the jungle of the scammers that proliferate this business.
Yes this is a negative business with very few shining stars... No question about that. But too many are so quick to jump on the negative bandwagon. If a long timer on this site, Futures.i.o, is putting a cogent comment together, it is not a bad thing to give him/her a little bit of the benefit of the doubt, especially if the opportunity does not cost you anything... Just my 2 cents
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There's a clearly far superior alternative available. Many members here have explained why they wouldn't. But ultimately, if you don't understand their explanations of "why they wouldn't give them a shot", then you don't.
That's one way of putting it.
Another way would be to say that he was repeatedly dishonest and deceptive.
There isn't any "doubt". The owner of MES was repeatedly dishonest and deceptive. What's difficult to understand, there?
So people "comparing" MES and TST (lol) have to compare someone who was repeatedly dishonest and pays 50% with a longstanding, successful business which pays 80%, has funded many members of this forum successfully, and is run by named, real, responsive, ethical people with real addresses, phone numbers, and not concealed identities.
So, let me see: do I want to do business with and depend for my income on someone who was repeatedly dishonest and deceptive?
How clear can it be? I imagine that for most people here that's a pretty easy decision.
For me, given all of the work done as far as due diligence on both Top Step and MES, neither of these groups are without issues. That is obvious. Depending on the person judging morality, if that is in fact a major determinant of making a decision, perhaps TopStep is "superior". It depends on the person making the judgement.
If the general rule of business holds true that everything in business is in fact negotiable, and there is no doubt that this does hold true in most cases, I would choose MES because they want NOTHING from me and most people in most cases, I would suspect, will not pass the tests to get funded initially. I can't imagine that I not the truth. Now, if I get in, and I do well, I feel confident I can negotiate my split I would suspect and if not, I can take my talents elsewhere.
I would suspect a great deal of people would feel the same as I and therefore the decision is far from clear cut.
Exactly why I asked. I agree with you. I personally don't see what is superior about the 'other' company. MES charges nothing at any step. You don't even have to pay your own feed or $85 for professional status once funded as far as I know. And no doubt if you are doing well the split can be negotiated. So one costs me money in addition to what I make, there are kind of restrictive rules such as an increasing max loss level, etc, and the other costs me nothing and no weird rules...hmmmm....which should I go with?
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There are people who will judge people with a criminal past and dismiss them offhand and not lend any credence to them no matter how much those people did or do to earn credibility. That is the same as people will trust someone who has the term "Doctor" from of their name, earns instant respect from MOST. You don't think "Dr" Barry Burns has cashed in MIGHTLY because he uses that term in front of his name???
I have been reading Emmett's site since very early on and have read in great detail about what he did, what he went through after got caught, and the soul searching he has done since, along with the rationale he has for doing what he is doing. I have read comments about what others have to say about him, including websites dedicated to disparaging him, and Emmett does very little to refute any of it.
I have determined he is being extremely transparent, does a really excellent job at reviews, though doing what he is trying to do has to be extremely difficult and therefore far not without issues, and he is very willing to admit when he is wrong. He allows all posts that insult his character, and accuse him of taking bribes and payouts etc, and he doesn't work hard at defending himself. He seems to be letting his work speak for itself and I can only imagine given his exponential growth in popularity, and exposing so many of the scams that have probably saved a lot of people a lot of money, he is doing OK with what he is trying to accomplish and a lot of people appreciate his work, like I do.
It is really easy to judge people on a past and say they are sh-t bag human beings for the rest of their lives. Statistically, that is probably true and therefore that person taking that argument will be mostly right. Good for them.
But, there are those, that have and do change, and you can only look at their body of work and actions to determine if they are worth our time. In fact, criminals can be some of the smartest and most talented amongst us to have been doing what they did. I have always marveled at the determination and creativity of white collar criminals and wondered what they could accomplish if they went legit.
For me, he is passing the test and I believe he is doing the best he can to be as truthful as he can and there exists no evidence of any kind he is taking kickbacks, EXCEPT if he discloses he is, which I have no problem with.
Now, if Big Mike decided to do exactly the same business as Emmett, you better believe I don't need to have Big Mike earn any credibility with me. He has done that in spades with this site and I would think such a business could be spectacular for him as that is what people want. They want a credible person to help them navigate through all of the BS out there as with all the fake posts on all the sites claiming all the successes etc, it is near impossible to tell who is real and who is not, not to mention the fast talkers in their day trading rooms.
Finally, as much as any of us would like to just 'stay away' from it all, and just learn from this site, and that is not bad advice, that isn't going to happen anytime soon. We like to observe other people being successful. We can learn from it, we can get confidence from it, and we may even adopt some of it and make it our own. My 2 pennies on the matter
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I read the updated review over at TradingSchools.org. I am not going to debate whether I think TST or MES are better as I think it is unfair when the MES owner is banned from this site and can't reply to any further comments.
I only highlighted your comment, whether it is correct or mistaken, because my understanding is that The $85 fee per exchange is paid by the trader to the exchange, nothing to do with TST. The CME charge it as a professional fee. One of their descriptions for Professional status is whether as a trader you are trading somebody else's money as opposed to your own account. TST inform you that this fee will be required. If somebody wasn't paying it then that becomes an issue if the exchange finds out you personally are intentionally defrauding them. Not paying it wouldn't be a good thing.
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I have no connection to TST but TradingSchools is run by a convicted criminal fraudster so anything written may be a mix of truth and lie to suit his own agenda.
quoted from the review:
"As a conspiracy theory consider that they don’t actually fund traders for the first 10 days and have you on a demo account (appearing to be a live account). If you are successful then they have to pay you out your profits (no problem to then as they were going to give you $1500 risk capital anyway)."
Now TradingSchools know perfectly well all anyone has to do is look at the book, place a trade at a quiet/empty level and the order should appear. Repeat a few times for certainty. I'd have to ask why Emmett Moore let this 'Conspiracy Theory' part be printed and not have someone check something so damning (and that nobody seems to have noticed already)?
TST is a business and futures are bad news for the untalented. All successful traders can complain about is TST are diverting beginner money straight into their own account without giving traders a crack at it. I guess I have just assumed that following their initial dream likely cost new traders less via combines than on the open market?
Things did not work out but it was all my doing. The trading parameters were tighter than I would have liked but they were stated up front. I fell below the max drawdown and the account was locked. However, I was given a second chance with even tighter parameters and shorter timeframe but again these were clearly stated. I emailed support to clarify what hours I would be trading because the second chance parameters required me to trade at a time I am normally done trading. I got a prompt response stating that was okay. Nevertheless, I proceeded to once again exceed the max drawdown and I was given no more chances. However, as others have noted, I was informed that I could reapply in 12 months. I will also confirm what others have said that the company made no attempts to sell me anything and there was no cost to participate in the trial. Overall, it was a good experience forcing myself to adhere to someone else's parameters while being watched during the process. This is something I am not used to but something to be expected if I am trading someone else's money.
Hope this helps someone.
Ned
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Need to admit that picking up 1500 usd as profit target is not enough to be financed in mes. Last month a friend of mine met their selection criterias but it was not enough. He had three really bad days with loss aprr. 500 but the gain of all other days was 200-400 in average. And he has been refused in financing after mes team reviewed his trading. So good coefficients in trading statistics are mot enough. And they dont offer him second chance.
I'm not funded with them, but it was my understand they payed all fees. I assumed they covered it since they were taking 50% of the profits. But don't quote me on that.
I contacted their support about this (pro/non-pro status) and I was referred to their 'legal department'. I gave up. They pay the data fees however once you trade someone else's money, you are a professional trader and should update your self-certification accordingly. I am sure few do this. It may be in the future that traders have a problem with MES if they decide to close being BVI based so recovering any balance, well you can imagine.
Sattam attended Forbes' lowest ranked Business school in the US. Forbes Welcome
Founded MES in 2014 in the BVI via a Jersey intermediary. Not a limited liability in the UK or Dubai however and with no offices in England or Dubai as best I could see both addresses were not even virtual offices.
Elite Trader shows 'Sattam' in 2015 claiming to be a trader who has lost $250k https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/looking-for-futures-trading-mentor.292836/ I decided not to go with them myself because of Sattam's ET posts as clearly he has no problem lying, it's very sickening reading the Sattam posts knowing MES already existed. But they seem to pay people.
I contacted MES a couple years back and spoke with the owner. The owner claimed to be a wealthy Londoner from a rich middle eastern family. He claimed the original employee who made the posts was not with the firm. But, even if it was the same guy and he lost 250k and decided to start a firm to find successful traders/mentors, I am not really sure it changes all that much.
I believe he mentioned some very large number about how much he had lost funding traders to that point. I think it was around 400k. But, my impression was that while it was a painful loss, it was not very much money to him, and I think he treated this as more of an experiment with a 1 million cap. At the time, the problem was traders were doing well in the sim but blowing up as soon as they went live. This seemed peculiar to me, and I recommended and even offered to build more powerful analytics to help understand what was going on. Honestly, if you trade for a prop and they aren't reverse engineering your trades then they probably aren't the most serious -- more on that later. It is likely that any serious prop records as much analytics as possible for their own benefit. But, his setup didn't give him the proper insight into the trading activities, and based on our discussions I suspect a lot of those blow up traders could have been avoided with a more realistic tracking service. At any rate, his broker confirmed that he had appropriate funds and had funded traders.
I was offered a demo account to trade and was never asked for any money. As for the demo, there was no way for me to test the platform which I wasn't familiar with. My goal was just to place as many trades as possible to get a feel for the markets while keeping within the risk tolerance. Unfortunately, the platform was not reporting my P&L net of fees and commission and thus my tracking point was off. It was a simple mistake on my part. As such, I exceeded the risk limit. I was never asked for any money or anything of that nature.
One of the problems with the operation was the first time I contacted them, one of the guys who responded was convinced I had taken the trial before. I had never taken the trial and told him. But, it took about 4-5 emails before they realized I wasn't some guy they thought I was. At the time there was some misinformation on their website, it sounded like you could re-try as many times as possible. But, the problem seems to be related to demoing the datafeed/exchange. I offered to pay my own datafeed but that was not an option. It really would not mean much to me to pay even several hundred dollars for a legitimate funding opportunity. This data issue was something they are working on.
From talking to the owner, I believe he is honest about wanting to fund traders and has the capital to do so. However, it is really a stretch at least this point to call it a firm. It feels more like a rich guy's experiment. I contacted him again more recently about 6 months ago and he had a few traders who were making money. I would be willing and like the opportunity to take the challenge at some point again. They do seem to be a bit disorganized though -- from the original contact where they were sure I was someone who had taken the trial previously to more recently where I still felt they might be disorganized.
In summary, based on my experiences I would cautiously recommend them. But at least for now, it is a stretch to call it a firm. And, you really need to be on your A game because at least from my experience it is one-shot type deal. If they can figure out the datafeed problems preventing longer term trials and improve operations this could be a premier opportunity. I am certainly wishing them success and hope they will resolve the datafeed/exchange issues and allow for more extensive trials. The only real question on my mind is how serious they are about becoming more professional and becoming a real firm.
For the record, I have no relationship with MES besides my experience in talking with the owner and trying the demo. Always do your own due diligence.
If You will visit MES website You will notice that they abandoned evaluation of new traders till February, 2017 and promote completely new scheme and new company called OneUpTrader. I guess that they are going to follow TopStepTrader prop model and decided not to earn money by funded traders but by thouthands of those who are dreaming to get funded ))))
Bite small, run fast!
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As the person above you said, the exchanges don't allow unlimited free demos these days so somebody has to pay. MES I understand took 50% of a successful funded traders profits so any successful traders would be carrying and subsidising all the free trials and other costs. TST only take 20% of a successful funded traders profits because aspiring traders support the business costs by paying a Combine fee (their choice, and mine). Perhaps MES found that any traders that were successful left almost immediately so they didn't have to give away half their profit and he was just left paying the costs for the unsuccessful traders. The TST business model is doing well, the MES business model clearly failed.
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A business model that seeks to make money from profits by funded traders will never be profitable, because there aren't enough good traders, and never will be. This is the reason MES is abandoning it's model, because they found out it isn't doable. And this is the reason TST has the model they do. The bulk of the profit comes off the combines, and they can even take a loss of the funded traders and still make a lot of money. If you are an exceptional trader, the opportunity is there to be funded. But if you're an exceptional trader, why do you need funding? Other than to make enough money to go out on your own. No company will ever make money off profits from funded traders. That is why there is the combine model. Again, as I've stated in a previous thread, not criticizing it. It just is what it is.
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tl;dr
Shortening my original reply because want to keep the focus on MES. But, the argument "if one can trade well enough" is a type of infinite extrapolation argument. If one can trade well enough then one only needs enough money to take the first trade and then one can just produce exponential returns from that which would be true for a perfect trader who never made any mistakes or had any losing trades. Obviously impossible in real world, if one wanted to achieve some weak semblance of that then binary options do provide for finite risk per trade and if there was a market for them as efficient as futures then they could might well be a much better bet for exponentially growing an account of ability to strictly bound the risk. A prop that offers insignificant starting capital and doesn't scale up risk/capital is also placing the trader in a similar type of situation imo where they need to hit a good winning streak to scale up the capital.
I'm still optimistic that MES might do something good in this space or bring a more competitive offering compared to TST.
Dang it, no more free trial (was planning to try it again this coming July or August, now never mind)...these guys do really want to compete as far as pretty much copying what TST has to offer as far as risk wise, but better in reward and monthly fee, which is good for funded trader market. Not sure if they have free 14 days free practice account and need to pay additional fee to reset the account (I really hate this part). One thing that TST doing now as far as I'm aware is offering some sort of coaching, not sure if it's free or not)
@rintin2x, from their website it does say you can reset your account for $100 (which I think is same as Topstep) and they do offer a 14 day trial. They haven't launched anything yet.
Ah...thank you, I missed that part...well, the whole thing can be quite expensive with the whole resetting the account $100 each time on top of the monthly fee. Of course I don't need to reset and just keep paying monthly, but that means I have zero chance of getting funded. So why I need to keep paying $150 minimum for something I have zero chance of getting when I can open up a live account and can sim the heck out of it for very low monthly fee? At least for me, live trading is more nerve wracking than taking a combine, and I believe it helps me grow faster, heck you can even just trade once a month and set your limit stop order to 2.5 points (ES) and still cheaper than $150+reset/month.
That's why despite of how bad the owner of MES is viewed in this site, it's still a better bet because it was free after all. But as I said on my first post...won't even going to do it since they are starting to charge for it.
FYI, they still haven't made the website available to start the combine.
FYI, all what I said earlier of course doesn't imply to the already funded traders, because you've made it, and congrats to you.
Yes, you're correct. Just noticed it, i just checked their Q&A and they said "after your exchange fees are paid" i wonder if they are paying for this because somebody said MES did before.
Anyway, it's good they are using oneup because now it's really measurable and there are no gray area anymore. I read many stories where traders pass the objective but still not being funded for no reasons and explanation.
Or if you actually still want to try and get funded, if you fail the Combine you don't reset for $100, you just cancel the automatic renewal and sim trade practice for the rest of the month based on what you learnt from blowing up the Combine. Then start a new Combine when the previous one expires at the end of the month. It is very easy to cancel a Combine subscription in the Log In user section.
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@Thomas T you sounds like advertisement, are you them?
@matthew28 sorry this is gonna be a long one. cant deny i still have hope to go back (unfinished business) and giving it another try in mes, but not tst. I confess i already tried the combine about 4 times and with several resets, and just realized it's way too expensive and very addicting way to get funded, so i had enough. What you said is true you can always close the account and try again next month, but if you're like almost other people, you tend to reset couple of times first before closing the account especially if you blow up the account on the first week or two. I really think they are very clever inventing that part. It's the noob type of thinking "miss time miss opportunity" because i rarely seen tst combine trader just stop trading one or two trades (1 lot), this behaviour is enforced because you have a time limit to achive the goal before paying up again for the next biling cycle.
I really feel these venues are for people that are actually already profitable and good, not for newer trader, but hey thats what i think anyway. This hold true for either tst or oneup.
Another part i want to mention is the funded guys sooner or later will leave them because they dont like paying what they earned, just think about it. 20% is a lot. It's just hard not thinking about leaving once you become profitable.
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everyone lies.
