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jigsaw dom/gomi ladder/baranalyzer/marketdelta/indicatormall/...

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  #1 (permalink)
 Forexoil 
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hi
I am trying to decide on which product to use.
There are so many that provide similar functions.
for example:
http://www.indicatormall.com/footprint-chart/(199$)

https://futures.io/wiki/trading-wiki/Gom-Volume-Ladder Gomiladder (FREE!)

Jigsaw dom (399$)

orderflow dashpro Home - OrderFlowDashPro 1291$! (I am trialing this now)

baranalyzer https://www.powerzonetrading.com/bar-analyzer-details 499$ a year!!


there are many threads about Gomi and jigsaw but this one could bring in more alternatives (not restricted to the ones listed above) and those who have used more than one could compare.

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 Forexoil 
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ok so I am now using orderflowdashpro and it is has a rather beautiful display and looks comprehensive regarding bid ask and volume. But is it worth the money?

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 Forexoil 
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Another one is sceeto.com which has had mixed reviews on this forum.

Now one thing I wonder about is whether any of these order flow indicator vendors supply a strategy that is backtestabke. After all it is simply data and it must be relatively straightforward to add in a buy or sell signal when the right conditions of strong selling or buying are detected?

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 LukeGeniol 
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Forexoil View Post
ok so I am now using orderflowdashpro and it is has a rather beautiful display and looks comprehensive regarding bid ask and volume. But is it worth the money?............

No. Especially the ones that are too pricy, like the one in your picture.

There are some more:
- Auction Dashboard
- Rancho Dinero
- Fin-Alg
- Order Flow Analytics

For FootPrint Chart you can use GomiLadder for free.
For Market/Volume Profile you can use GomMP and AltoGomMP
For Time & Sale there's
For VWAP there are many on futures.io (formerly BMT)

Take your Pips, go out and Live.
Luke.
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 Forexoil 
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Thanks for the links!

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 Zefi 
Mount Martha, Victoria, Australia
 
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Thanks for the great thread.


Do you know which brokers support Jigsaw's DOM?

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 kirillxskynet 
Tula, Russia
 
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I always trade order flow and use Jigsaw, but already the fourth week I test Algovisor. I did't find any info about at BigMike. Does anyone use it?
I think it is more convenient solution. it is better to find a big orders, look:

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 Zefi 
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That looks like a mess

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 kirillxskynet 
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Zefi View Post
That looks like a mess

at the first blush, but after hours of observation I found it really helpful

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 Forexoil 
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so i am looking at auction dashboard, or rancho dinero or jigsaw (orderflow anayltics looks overpriced).
anyone care to say which of these they would recommend?

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 DELTA007 
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Why have you not included market delta in your list?

Keep It Simple
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 tastypaint 
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Auction Dashboard? - Order Flow Trading Software
auction dashboard wins on price at $180

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 matthew28 
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Forexoil View Post
so i am looking at auction dashboard, or rancho dinero or jigsaw (orderflow anayltics looks overpriced).
anyone care to say which of these they would recommend?

You asked pretty much the same question when you started this thread almost a year ago?
Any of these products basically shows the same information just layed out or arranged slightly differently.
I have tried Market delta and Jigsaw and Bookmap. Jigsaw Vista is beta at the moment but the rest of the product works fine so I guess that will be out of beta shortly.
All the products I tried were good, and I am sure the others are too. Which leaves personal preference. Most have a demo or a money back guarantee. You really need to try them and see which one you personally like using.
For myself I have found that simpler is better so just because one has lots of options might not necessarily make it the best one for you. Also I wouldn't focus on price too much. It isn't cheap if you don't actually like it after trying it out.

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 Forexoil 
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matthew28 View Post
You asked pretty much the same question when you started this thread almost a year ago?
t.

yeah, the complexity of them meant that I put them aside and concentrated on other aspects.

now that I am starting to make consistent wins I want to introduce orderflow as a way to add a tick or two to entries and possibly keep me in winning trades longer.
BTW if an expensive item like orderflowanalytics had any real advantage I would certinly buy it despite the price.
i have been using auctiondashboard recently which is well priced. but there is so much information that I cant see forest for the trees...

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 matthew28 
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Forexoil View Post
i have been using auctiondashboard recently ......... but there is so much information that I cant see forest for the trees...

I thought that when I looked at the link somebody posted a few replies ago.
To elaborate on my first reply, I moved from Jigsaw to BookMap a few months ago (just before Jigsaw brought out Vista). I liked the information that Jigsaw gave me, and haven't changed my methodology as such, but after a trial I decided that I prefered the way that Bookmap presented the information. I only mention this in that you might want to try it, in relation to your previous post, because the layout is quite simple but it has all the information I need without the information overload.
I have that chart along with a Daily chart and Market Profile chart for the bigger perspective. If you do try BookMap you can run it off your Ninjatrader data. (I did find though that I needed to put the Bookmap indicator on a small amount of data tick chart in a separate workspace and open it once my main chart workspace was up, and close it before shutting down Ninjatrader, as sometimes opening Ninjatrader with the Bookmap indicator opening at the same time made Ninja freeze. The only thing I disliked about Bookmap, if used on faster moving instruments, was that if I enlarged the field of view to show the past hour or so of data, which tends to be about my default view, then the price levels would reduce to a size below the smallest typeface size so I couldn't see the numbers for the volume and order book. I turned my Bookmap monitor vertical which I have found much better for me).

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 Forexoil 
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thanks for that! Just looking at it the bookmap site. It looks a mess to be honest? needs more investigation..

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 Forexoil 
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Forexoil View Post
thanks for that! Just looking at it the bookmap site. It looks a mess to be honest? needs more investigation..

i must add that after investigating bookmap is looking rather promising albeit twice the price of jigsaw.

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 Forexoil 
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So following Matthew's comments on bookmap I looked at it for a few days and have now purchased it. I like the fact that it can be used with Ninjatrader (the broker version), TWS, and as a standalone with iqfeed - I have all these.
It's easy to use and seems stable.

I also bought jigsaw which I have been using for a week (mainly the heatmap ): it works well.

Both have the option to return within 15 days but I will probably keep both.

Auctiondashboard I gave up on as there was tooooo much data to watch. Marketdelta - looked good but expensive ..

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 jonc 
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I'm intrigued by these products which supposedly to help the trader to have more information about the order flow.

I have spent sometime viewing the videos these vendors have on their site and reading through their product descriptions. They spoke about iceberg, absorption, accumulation, momentum etc

Perhaps I'm abit slow but I still don't understand exactly what is the "additional" information or insights these programs actually provides.

Can someone explain to me in simple terms what is the exact order flow information you gained from these software?

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 matthew28 
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For me it is looking at areas of potential failure and looking for price not to be able to do something. For example price comes up to an area and I think it might breakout, am I seeing a lot of aggressive buying but it is being absorbed at a couple of levels and price can't get through, and when the buyers realise they can't push price through then they need to sell out so price falls back in to range again. Or the orderflow might show that people are buying aggressively and the orders are pulling out of the way so price is likely to break out. Also it can allow one to be much more precise about stops. If I sell and price goes back in to range then it shouldn't come up through that absorption high volume node again. I can save a few ticks risk by not just sticking the stop above the bar high.
Order flow can be useful for confirmation whether to place the trade or not at a location you have already decided is somewhere you want to trade. People get into trouble when they stare at the orderflow and see potential trades everywhere and end up scalping all over the place and overtrading.

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 matthew28 
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Forexoil View Post
So following Matthew's comments on bookmap I looked at it for a few days and have now purchased it.

Make sure you turn the brightness down so that the large levels of liquidity stand out and you can easily see how those influence price. Otherwise it is just different shades of grey.
I suggest starting with:
Contrast 50%
Brightness 5%
White Cutoff 95%

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 jmont1 
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jonc View Post
I'm intrigued by these products which supposedly to help the trader to have more information about the order flow.

I have spent sometime viewing the videos these vendors have on their site and reading through their product descriptions. They spoke about iceberg, absorption, accumulation, momentum etc

Perhaps I'm abit slow but I still don't understand exactly what is the "additional" information or insights these programs actually provides.

Can someone explain to me in simple terms what is the exact order flow information you gained from these software?

@jonc, the theory of order flow is that all indicators are lagging, i.e... history, even if just minutes ago. Order Flow is trying to see as clpse to possible the real time of orders being placed. This can give insight into that there is a level at this point in time that someone is selling and will sell to all who want to buy. When large players do this, they are able to do it without having their orders actually showing on the DOM. When they hide the orders - this is called an iceburg because there is more depth to the market than being shown.

Seeing current order flow gives a clue to this and other trading patterns.

Hope that gives a layman's comment on it.

As far as applications for this information, GOMI just came out with a new vendor supported version of his indicators at GomCators.com. He is offering a 20 day trial for NT7, NT8 and Sierra Charts. It is well worth taking a look. The fact it runs on 3 systems is important for easy migration if you determine one of the platforms is not up to snuff.

For a bit of an education on using order flow I would recommend TradingFuturesInAction.com one week trial. They focus heavily on Order Flow. They also have an order flow system. The great thing about them is they have no large up front charges or long term commitment. It is a monthly charge that can be cancelled at any time.

Another room for the market profile (based on volue not time) more than order flow is FuturesFx.ca that has open trials every Tuesday morning.

Good Trading all.

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 Forexoil 
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jmont1 View Post
[Mw I would recommend TradingFuturesInAction.com one week trial. They focus heavily on Order Flow. They also have an order flow system. The great thing about them is they have no large up front charges or long term commitment. It is a monthly charge that can be cancelled at any time.
all.

$329 Monthly for room and $2995 for the orderflow indicator. the mod is bob amico. you can read about his exploits in his last room here: Global Trade Room - Trading Schools.Org

the other room, futuresfx.ca, https://futuresfx.ca/services-and-specials.html, is also asscociated with the same crowd (globaltrade)

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 jmont1 
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Forexoil View Post
$329 Monthly for room and $2995 for the orderflow indicator. the mod is bob amico. you can read about his exploits in his last room here: Global Trade Room - Trading Schools.Org

the other room, futuresfx.ca, Services and Specials, is also asscociated with the same crowd (globaltrade)

@Forexoil, Not trying to sell these organization to anyone, BUT HAVE AND WILL act as a reference for both. I have been with both organizations and have full confidence in both. I only use the GOMI free Metro Editions at this point, but am reviewing GOMI's imminent releases to see if I go with that since it works on NT8 and Sierra Charts:



Both rooms mentioned offer FREE trials and you should expose yourself to their trading ability rather than act based on the URL you provided.

Here is a recommendation URL where an independent found both groups to be "Trading Titans" out of the over one thousand rooms out there:

https://futurestruth.com/

BTW, since this is Jigsaws' thread I should state, I have not used or tried it, but have heard nothing but great compliments on it. It has a great webinar about it. And Futures.IO members get a discount for it. It also has a trial I believe.

Let's not get into a back and forth on this. The primary subject of the post was "Is Order Flow worthwhile." Please express your opinion on that topic.

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 Forexoil 
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ok , my last word on the sites you mentioned: read this old thread


As far as I can tell there are cheaper and more useful services to learn orderflow from than the above..

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 jonc 
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I rely a lot on what is happening in the volume when I'm trading futures - that's why I would want as much information as possible. I think it might be a matter of perspectives that I can't really see how these tools can add on to providing additional implied information which is not available from looking at the DOM and charts.



jmont1 View Post
@jonc, the theory of order flow is that all indicators are lagging, i.e... history, even if just minutes ago. Order Flow is trying to see as clpse to possible the real time of orders being placed. This can give insight into that there is a level at this point in time that someone is selling and will sell to all who want to buy. When large players do this, they are able to do it without having their orders actually showing on the DOM. When they hide the orders - this is called an iceburg because there is more depth to the market than being shown.

Seeing current order flow gives a clue to this and other trading patterns.

Hope that gives a layman's comment on it.

Thanks.

I do understand the idea of iceberg and accumulation. What I cannot see is how these tools let you glean into the information that someone is accumulation/absorbing the orders or defending a level more accurately than just looking at the DOM, T/S and a volume chart.

For example if the price had been stuck for the past hour in a small range with active volume, I would suspect that orders are being accumulated - can these tools tell you which side is stronger and whether which side its most likely to breakout?

I have this impression the main idea of these tools is providing buy/sell volume information at each price level.

For myself, the overall structure of the price from a chart would help to decide which side I think the price most likely would breakout, I'm trying to see if these tools would help to give more clues to where the prices would go but having spent time looking at the videos on these products, I still don't get what is the extra information they can give.





matthew28 View Post
For me it is looking at areas of potential failure and looking for price not to be able to do something. For example price comes up to an area and I think it might breakout, am I seeing a lot of aggressive buying but it is being absorbed at a couple of levels and price can't get through, and when the buyers realise they can't push price through then they need to sell out so price falls back in to range again. Or the orderflow might show that people are buying aggressively and the orders are pulling out of the way so price is likely to break out. Also it can allow one to be much more precise about stops. If I sell and price goes back in to range then it shouldn't come up through that absorption high volume node again. I can save a few ticks risk by not just sticking the stop above the bar high.
Order flow can be useful for confirmation whether to place the trade or not at a location you have already decided is somewhere you want to trade. People get into trouble when they stare at the orderflow and see potential trades everywhere and end up scalping all over the place and overtrading.


How does these order flow tools do this better than looking at the DOM/TS , volume bar chart and volume profile?

Can't all these also be deduced from a volume bar chart and observing the DOM/TS - if many bars are printed and the prices just stay in a congested level?

As you had mentioned, when one look these order flow tools, they might start reading too much into what they are seeing and might even end up thinking something is happening when it is not so.

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 matthew28 
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jonc View Post
......I'm trying to see if these tools would help to give more clues to where the prices would go but having spent time looking at the videos on these products, I still don't get what is the extra information they can give.

How does these order flow tools do this better than looking at the DOM/TS , volume bar chart and volume profile?

Can't all these also be deduced from a volume bar chart and observing the DOM/TS - if many bars are printed and the prices just stay in a congested level?......

If you can't see any value in 'order flow' tools or don't find that they add anything to what you currently use then just stick with what you have.

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 rleplae 
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The tool is only a very small part of the complete picture.

1. you need to be able to use the tool and be able to read..
for clarity : yes any system needs an order flow component

2. my personal view on vendors :

a) they update the versions and force you into an update without proper release management
with the risk of breaking your system, it is funny how none of the vendors take liability for
any mistakes... (very easy business, too easy) i remember vivid the zenfire situation like it was
yesterday

b) almost all of the tools have limitations and bugs. some vendors are more wiling to fix things
than others. most if not all of the vendors are interested in selling a license and don't care about
your results. If they had the perfect system, they would not sell it to you.

3. most of the tools are geared towards display. when it comes to exposing an interface, the
limitations come quickly into play. the tools are the basic foundation on which you need to
build a bit of additional things to 'see' what you need.


Conclusion : none of the tools is perfect. you need more than the tool. and you need a lot of
patience. if you think one of those tools will give you a silver bullet and the money is going to
roll in next week : you need to re-adjust your expectations. (a lot of vendors will promise you that,
simply forget that and become realistic). that said some of the vendors are doing a good and a
better job than others..


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 Forexoil 
Bangkok thailand
 
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Quoting 
some of the vendors are doing a good and a
better job than others..

and which are the better ones?

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  #31 (permalink)
 mcbinsure 
fort wayne indiana
 
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matthew28 View Post
You asked pretty much the same question when you started this thread almost a year ago?
Any of these products basically shows the same information just layed out or arranged slightly differently.
I have tried Market delta and Jigsaw and Bookmap. Jigsaw Vista is beta at the moment but the rest of the product works fine so I guess that will be out of beta shortly.
All the products I tried were good, and I am sure the others are too. Which leaves personal preference. Most have a demo or a money back guarantee. You really need to try them and see which one you personally like using.
For myself I have found that simpler is better so just because one has lots of options might not necessarily make it the best one for you. Also I wouldn't focus on price too much. It isn't cheap if you don't actually like it after trying it out.

BS jigsaw is a joke 30 sec chart all you get. Top traders using this crap have 50% win rate flip a coin

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