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Experiences with Collective2
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Experiences with Collective2

  #31 (permalink)
Elite Member
Athens,Greece
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader,Metastock,Amibroker
Broker/Data: MirusFutures/Zen-Fire,IB
Favorite Futures: ES,6E,CL
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Posts: 4 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 55 given, 4 received


Zoethecus View Post
To my knowledge, C2 has no mechanism to throttle the number of contracts a subscriber trades in a system. If the strategy instrument is thinly traded, a large group of orders coming to the market at the same time could negatively impact results. Limiting the number of subscribers does not solve the problem.

Hi Zoethecus
You are absolutely right.
This is exactly what happened to me back in 2008. And limiting the number of subscribers won't solve the problem (e.g. if one of them is a broker).

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  #32 (permalink)
Elite Member
toronto, ontario
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja trader
Broker/Data: sterling, iqfeed
Favorite Futures: es, nq, 6e
 
bizman70's Avatar
 
Posts: 363 since May 2010
Thanks: 41 given, 140 received

systems

is there a system or would people be interested in a system that allowes you to follow in real time and trade a live account or choose to be in sim mode while the main account trades live - you will have a choice to trade the same quantity or a % of it -
?

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  #33 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
United States of America
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 262 given, 471 received



bizman70 View Post
is there a system or would people be interested in a system that allowes you to follow in real time and trade a live account or choose to be in sim mode while the main account trades live - you will have a choice to trade the same quantity or a % of it -
?

There are a few here at futures.io (formerly BMT), such as AAHurley and they are FREE.

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  #34 (permalink)
Elite Member
CA
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker/Data: Velocity
Favorite Futures: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 64 given, 521 received

Im actually trying to put my system on collective 2 right now.... There's alot of things that i don't get. For example, if i understood it correctly, if i enter a limit order and i get filled, it automatically get turned into a market order for the people that are following my signals. Now most of the times thats ok, but there are times i get filled on my limit orders since its been sitting there for a while. That could have adverse affects if your trading the ES, since your market order might get a bad fill, and your results would be different. Also, half the trades i did today didn't post for some reason. I don't understand why, and when i reported it, they didn't respond back to me yet....

I heard of something similar to collective2 called covestor. I'll have to check it out later on, still trying to get collective2 to work properly. I don't think they have the same connectivity to ninja like collective2 has, and im not even sure you can day trade futures on there. Will have to do a bit of more research.

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The following user says Thank You to Michael.H for this post:
 
  #35 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,059 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,933 given, 2,783 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary

We have decided that the best thing is to execute is in-house in our own brokerage, as we find 2nd party execution a bit cumbersome, at time expansive and does not allow us to see the real picture from a risk management perspective.

Our procedure:

1) All systems are executed in house on a server. Most of the time the developer delivers the code protected.
We sign all non-disclosure agreements.
2) We test the system up to 3 months with forward testing, to see if the hypothetical match the signals. We have learned the hard way that with Range bar you can some incredible results while the reality is far from it.
3) All signals have to run on TradeStation, because after all is said and done we have found it is the best platform to generate the signals from.
4) Execution is done via NinjaTrader/Rithmic or CQG/TradeMaven.
5) All orders are executed as MIT on TS then sent as market orders.

As far as using 2rd party system executions:
Sadly some developers are not on top of their system execution. They can shoot an order that might not hit the server and no execution while a liquidating position might get triggered. It is very frustrating to have developer of this kind because you need to start closing positions manually. While customers assume that orders get executed right, this is not always the case. Technology is not perfect. When we have a system that shoots and no execution is done due to data failure or anything else, we know what is the order is and we can act accordingly and in a timely fashion.

The cost of execution in house is small as compare to the execution of systems with C2 and Strategy Runner. I don’t have to pay expansive routing fees.

Consider:

C2 wants $1.99 per side that is besides broker commissions. They say 1.99 on their site and I assume it's per side.

Strategy Runner wants $0.8 RT, which is very reasonable, and I would choose it over C2 any day. They do have a $75/Month minimum. But, They are very negotiable when it comes to volume.
Also, they do have a good real time platform to watch positions.

Strategy Runner has a number of systems developers that are truly on top of things, and watch their trades and see if execution was done right. I personally reached out to them and discussed execution.

Back to in-house execution…

In-house execution allows us to execute without paying on a per contract basis. Sometimes the developers make a lot more than the broker that way, and that should not be the case. I feel brokers and customers take more risk, not the developers.

Above all, if we have a system with a lot of contracts, we can say enough!
Systems can only carry that many contracts, and if someone cares about the integrity of performance, then at some point they close it. At the very least, they have slight modifications for entry in terms of time so not all contracts are just thrown into the market. Slippage control is the key to performance.

The system execution technology is not perfect, but with the release of MultiCharts and the ability to run easy language and execute it on one machine using a low latency solution could solve lots of headaches for us as well. All will be done on one machine. With all the system execution difficulties, I am still going to execute most of my business in house, because that is the best risk management you can do and so far proven to be the best.
I hope I have brought to light things that would help people make the right decision when it comes to systems selection and execution.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #36 (permalink)
Elite Member
CA
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker/Data: Velocity
Favorite Futures: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 64 given, 521 received

Ok.. So if the system is not purely mechanical and it does have a discretionary side to it, how do you go about forward testing it for 3 months?

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  #37 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,059 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,933 given, 2,783 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary

we typically wait for the results as they accumulate for 3 months.
However, we use our discretion for less time, depending on the experience of the programmer, etc.
Most of the systems in house are purely mechanical.

There is another solution we use for discretionary trading, and that is SAS by Strategy Runner.
As a broker I will see your trades on CQG Trader and will be able to confirm as trades are allocated to accounts.
I have attached here a link to the brochure: http://www.strategyrunner.com/Content/Documents/SAS_UserGuide.pdf

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #38 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,059 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,933 given, 2,783 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary

now where are all my thanks you?

its almost one o'clock on East Coast...even the Dog is sleeping, and I am still on futures.io (formerly BMT)....I need to get a life.

M

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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The following user says Thank You to mattz for this post:
 
  #39 (permalink)
Elite Member
CA
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker/Data: Velocity
Favorite Futures: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 64 given, 521 received


Michael.H View Post
Im actually trying to put my system on collective 2 right now.... There's alot of things that i don't get. For example, if i understood it correctly, if i enter a limit order and i get filled, it automatically get turned into a market order for the people that are following my signals. Now most of the times thats ok, but there are times i get filled on my limit orders since its been sitting there for a while. That could have adverse affects if your trading the ES, since your market order might get a bad fill, and your results would be different. Also, half the trades i did today didn't post for some reason. I don't understand why, and when i reported it, they didn't respond back to me yet....

I heard of something similar to collective2 called covestor. I'll have to check it out later on, still trying to get collective2 to work properly. I don't think they have the same connectivity to ninja like collective2 has, and im not even sure you can day trade futures on there. Will have to do a bit of more research.

It turns out that they don't support futures or even options.. so its a no go there

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  #40 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,059 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,933 given, 2,783 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



Michael.H View Post
It turns out that they don't support futures or even options.. so its a no go there

strange.

Collective2 AutoTrade: How it works

Maybe they stopped? I will help you with your system if you want to offer it to the public.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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