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Rande Howell's Material Psychology (www.tradersstateofmind.com)
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Rande Howell's Material Psychology (www.tradersstateofmind.com)

  #11 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Chihuahua, Mexico
 
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rahulgopi View Post
Jorge,
your understanding is correct. Once you understand the biological aspect of emotions, how emotions determines the state of mind you think from, how thinking determines the possibilities and possibilities determines your actions. Every emotions have a breathing signature and emotion cannot be maintained unless you maintain the breathing. IF you record yourself while trading and look at the places where you are fearful, you will notice how you hold your breath or do shallow breathing. it is a fun thing to watch . If you have read "Relaxation Response" , you will notice that emotions can be regulated by changing the breathing, using deep belly breathing.

Since you have already read the book and understood the concepts, you may want to put that into practice.

Choosing this route will require dedication and commitment, with breathing and developing Mindfulness. Once you have this skills it will open the door for observing the beliefs and altering them. Mindfulness is a wonderful thing to have, it will set you free from all the mindless drama you will get involved with, in life and trading.


Thanks again Rahul

I see the cycle, any disruption in your belief system makes the brain to biologically trigger the emotions. The emotions affects our thinking, and our thoughts determine our behavior and then our actions. But it is through our thoughts how we can know our beliefs.

As you said every emotion has a breathing signature as well as other physical sensations and feelings. If we are fearful our breathing becomes shallow or we even hold our breath, our heart starts beating up faster. If we are anxious or fearful, we can feel sensations at the throat or the chest or the upper stomach, if we are upset or angry the sensations would be located mainly at the middle of the stomach, and then we enter the fight or flight mode response. I have journaled all those different sensations depending if I am in the flight mode or if I am in the fight mode.

We cannot avoid all this, since this is engrained into our biological responses. However, we can regulate them by changing the breathing, starting to breath deeply and diaphragmatically, and also applying the self soothe visualization. In fact, I´ve been training myself in that aspect. I made some videos of the beautfiul beaches at Tulum, Mayan Riviera, Mexico. I do the breathing exercise while I am watching the videos and I introduced ocean sound to the videos, so everything gets connected in my mind. So once I start breathing deeply while trading. my mind can recall the beautiful and clear blue sea of the videos with the sound of the ocean and waves as the self soothing element.

In that state, we can trade from the couch or the observer, looking at our thoughts as something that our brain is producing, acknowledging our emotions, feelings and sensations and it that way understanding our beliefs. As you said, once we understand and know what are our beliefs, we´ll be able to alter them, only till we reach that mindfulness aspect we will be able to alter the beliefs.

However, what is still not that clear to me is how to peform the last part of the whole process which is exactly how to alter the beliefs, so that I start creating new neural-circuits in my brain. This is the last part of the process where I still have doubts on how to do it.

Our emotions will determine the certainty of our beliefs and thoughts. If we are fearful, then that will lead to the certainty of losing, wether if we are confident, that will lead to beliefs that we can trade profitability no matter how the market present itself and no matter how many losing trades we can have as part as our trading system, but to get that confidence we need to alter the belief system, but it is exaclty that very last part of the process where I am still not that sure of how to do it.

Any advice?

Jorge

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  #12 (permalink)
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jgomez74 View Post
Thanks again Rahul

I see the cycle, any disruption in your belief system makes the brain to biologically trigger the emotions. The emotions affects our thinking, and our thoughts determine our behavior and then our actions. But it is through our thoughts how we can know our beliefs.

As you said every emotion has a breathing signature as well as other physical sensations and feelings. If we are fearful our breathing becomes shallow or we even hold our breath, our heart starts beating up faster. If we are anxious or fearful, we can feel sensations at the throat or the chest or the upper stomach, if we are upset or angry the sensations would be located mainly at the middle of the stomach, and then we enter the fight or flight mode response. I have journaled all those different sensations depending if I am in the flight mode or if I am in the fight mode.

We cannot avoid all this, since this is engrained into our biological responses. However, we can regulate them by changing the breathing, starting to breath deeply and diaphragmatically, and also applying the self soothe visualization. In fact, I´ve been training myself in that aspect. I made some videos of the beautfiul beaches at Tulum, Mayan Riviera, Mexico. I do the breathing exercise while I am watching the videos and I introduced ocean sound to the videos, so everything gets connected in my mind. So once I start breathing deeply while trading. my mind can recall the beautiful and clear blue sea of the videos with the sound of the ocean and waves as the self soothing element.

In that state, we can trade from the couch or the observer, looking at our thoughts as something that our brain is producing, acknowledging our emotions, feelings and sensations and it that way understanding our beliefs. As you said, once we understand and know what are our beliefs, we´ll be able to alter them, only till we reach that mindfulness aspect we will be able to alter the beliefs.

However, what is still not that clear to me is how to peform the last part of the whole process which is exactly how to alter the beliefs, so that I start creating new neural-circuits in my brain. This is the last part of the process where I still have doubts on how to do it.

Our emotions will determine the certainty of our beliefs and thoughts. If we are fearful, then that will lead to the certainty of losing, wether if we are confident, that will lead to beliefs that we can trade profitability no matter how the market present itself and no matter how many losing trades we can have as part as our trading system, but to get that confidence we need to alter the belief system, but it is exaclty that very last part of the process where I am still not that sure of how to do it.

Any advice?

Jorge

Jorge,
you are making fantastic progress in understanding and regulating emotions. Next is developing Mindfulness. I am not sure how much ZEN practice you have done in the past but being Mindful to your thoughts is critical in getting to your beliefs. Have you started observing your thoughts ? When I was practicing with a ZEN teacher, he gave me a mindfulness exercise which worked really well for me, here it goes
1) Sit with your back straight
2) your knees should be lower than your hip , so that you can breathe deep and expand your belly.
3) Take deep belly breath and expand to your chest, release slowly ( 5 to 10 times )
4) Have a clock with seconds hand on a wall at your eye level
5) sit and passively focus on the seconds hand as it moves around
6) watch the thoughts as they develop, see them outside of you. Ask the question , who is observing the thought ?

Once you develop the ability to observe your thoughts and see them apart from you, your observer aspect will be developed. You may start examining the validity of the thought and which voice in your mind (belief) is responsible for the thought.


Regards
Rahul

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  #13 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Chihuahua, Mexico
 
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Posts: 32 since Dec 2011
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rahulgopi View Post
Jorge,
you are making fantastic progress in understanding and regulating emotions. Next is developing Mindfulness. I am not sure how much ZEN practice you have done in the past but being Mindful to your thoughts is critical in getting to your beliefs. Have you started observing your thoughts ? When I was practicing with a ZEN teacher, he gave me a mindfulness exercise which worked really well for me, here it goes
1) Sit with your back straight
2) your knees should be lower than your hip , so that you can breathe deep and expand your belly.
3) Take deep belly breath and expand to your chest, release slowly ( 5 to 10 times )
4) Have a clock with seconds hand on a wall at your eye level
5) sit and passively focus on the seconds hand as it moves around
6) watch the thoughts as they develop, see them outside of you. Ask the question , who is observing the thought ?

Once you develop the ability to observe your thoughts and see them apart from you, your observer aspect will be developed. You may start examining the validity of the thought and which voice in your mind (belief) is responsible for the thought.


Regards
Rahul

Thank you very much Rahul for your comments, messages and the exercise of how becoming an observer. I really appreciate all that.

Yes I have already started observing my thoughts and I think I am also somehow advanced in this topic.

For instance, I´ve realized that I and most traders take very personal the trades. We tend to describe the trades like if we are the ones inside of the markets with expression like this:

It´s going to stop me out.
I got stopped out.
The market is moving in my favor.
The market is moving against me
The market is taking off without me.

And many other similar expressions when that´s not the true, it is the trades we execute the ones that are inside of the markets, it is not ourselves, but since we take the trades so personal we express in that way, and that´s why we get deppresed or very angry if thinks do not turn out the way we want.

I´ve also realized that I try to control the market with my thoughts, for example, I say: Go up, go up, if I am in a long, or go down, go down, if I am in a short, and I try to command the market on what it needs to do to satisfy my desires.

If I get upset I start cursing the markets or telling it even bad words, or some other times I start begging the market to do what I want, or I even start praying. Or I have also catch myself telling the market: You are doing again this to me, you only stopped me out and reverse into the direction of the trade, why are you doing this to me?

I have also observed my Inner Critic in charge saying: This is not for you, after so long you still do not get it, when will be the time when you start trading profitable and consistently, You did the same mistake again, you are not worthy, what are you doing, why did you move your stop loss if the market was going against you and other self-reproach expressions.

I have also realized about my thoughts when the adapted voice is in charge like for example when I see an opportunity and I want to be a 100% sure the trade will work, or I start thinking "Am I sure this is the place, what if I am wrong" and thoughts about not taking the risk so that I do not experience the arousal of emotions. For example I say, "this is a good opportunity, but I rather remain on the sidelines or in my comfort zone, because I do not want to experience the emotions that bother me". I´ve experienced also worrying thoughts about all the time that has passed and feeling that I am stuck and not moving forward.

So I think I have already some miles in this topic of awareness or mindfulness. I am also very aware that those thoughts are very strong and can totally affect my mood. I am a very rational and anatlytical person, so I like things to be precise and to work the way they should work. I know that´s not the way the market behaves, because this is a probabilities game, so I got frustrated when things do not turn out, the way they supposed to be. So I need to start thinking with a probability mindset and with a managing risk mindset, just as I do when I trading on SIM, because there´s no money at risk.

But still when I am aware of those thoughs and beliefs, I keep producing the same thoughs, beleifs and behaviors, because I haven´t developed the way to change those beliefs so that I start producing new thoughts and therefore new emotions. And as I say before, I think that´s the only part, which is the last of the process, that I think I am still missing.


Jorge

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  #14 (permalink)
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jgomez74 View Post
Thank you very much Rahul for your comments, messages and the exercise of how becoming an observer. I really appreciate all that.

Yes I have already started observing my thoughts and I think I am also somehow advanced in this topic.

For instance, I´ve realized that I and most traders take very personal the trades. We tend to describe the trades like if we are the ones inside of the markets with expression like this:

It´s going to stop me out.
I got stopped out.
The market is moving in my favor.
The market is moving against me
The market is taking off without me.

And many other similar expressions when that´s not the true, it is the trades we execute the ones that are inside of the markets, it is not ourselves, but since we take the trades so personal we express in that way, and that´s why we get deppresed or very angry if thinks do not turn out the way we want.

I´ve also realized that I try to control the market with my thoughts, for example, I say: Go up, go up, if I am in a long, or go down, go down, if I am in a short, and I try to command the market on what it needs to do to satisfy my desires.

If I get upset I start cursing the markets or telling it even bad words, or some other times I start begging the market to do what I want, or I even start praying. Or I have also catch myself telling the market: You are doing again this to me, you only stopped me out and reverse into the direction of the trade, why are you doing this to me?

I have also observed my Inner Critic in charge saying: This is not for you, after so long you still do not get it, when will be the time when you start trading profitable and consistently, You did the same mistake again, you are not worthy, what are you doing, why did you move your stop loss if the market was going against you and other self-reproach expressions.

I have also realized about my thoughts when the adapted voice is in charge like for example when I see an opportunity and I want to be a 100% sure the trade will work, or I start thinking "Am I sure this is the place, what if I am wrong" and thoughts about not taking the risk so that I do not experience the arousal of emotions. For example I say, "this is a good opportunity, but I rather remain on the sidelines or in my comfort zone, because I do not want to experience the emotions that bother me". I´ve experienced also worrying thoughts about all the time that has passed and feeling that I am stuck and not moving forward.

So I think I have already some miles in this topic of awareness or mindfulness. I am also very aware that those thoughts are very strong and can totally affect my mood. I am a very rational and anatlytical person, so I like things to be precise and to work the way they should work. I know that´s not the way the market behaves, because this is a probabilities game, so I got frustrated when things do not turn out, the way they supposed to be. So I need to start thinking with a probability mindset and with a managing risk mindset, just as I do when I trading on SIM, because there´s no money at risk.

But still when I am aware of those thoughs and beliefs, I keep producing the same thoughs, beleifs and behaviors, because I haven´t developed the way to change those beliefs so that I start producing new thoughts and therefore new emotions. And as I say before, I think that´s the only part, which is the last of the process, that I think I am still missing.


Jorge

Jorge,
your situation is almost the same as mine. I considered myself mindful with the ZEN experience I had but my journals where filled with the same self talk and thoughts. Yes, you are observing the thoughts but you haven't identified the underlying belief that triggers the thought. This is not easy as most of these beliefs are so automatic, they are hidden from awareness. With years of conditioning they produce the same repetitive response.

This is one thing I have observed with my meditation practices from the past. They help you with emotional regulation and expand your band of tolerance BUT they do not fix the real issues with underlying beliefs.

Working with a professional is the best way to identify and work with the belief system.
I am not qualified to advice you on this as this will do more harm than good . From what I can see and from my personal experience, I went thru the same vicious cycle. I was using the psychology and self talk journal from Brett S and observed the pattern over few months without any progress.

Sorry, I was not much help to your real problem but atleast I can see that we are taking the same journey.
Regards
Rahul

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  #15 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Chihuahua, Mexico
 
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Favorite Futures: TF
 
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rahulgopi View Post
Jorge,
your situation is almost the same as mine. I considered myself mindful with the ZEN experience I had but my journals where filled with the same self talk and thoughts. Yes, you are observing the thoughts but you haven't identified the underlying belief that triggers the thought. This is not easy as most of these beliefs are so automatic, they are hidden from awareness. With years of conditioning they produce the same repetitive response.

This is one thing I have observed with my meditation practices from the past. They help you with emotional regulation and expand your band of tolerance BUT they do not fix the real issues with underlying beliefs.

Working with a professional is the best way to identify and work with the belief system.
I am not qualified to advice you on this as this will do more harm than good . From what I can see and from my personal experience, I went thru the same vicious cycle. I was using the psychology and self talk journal from Brett S and observed the pattern over few months without any progress.

Sorry, I was not much help to your real problem but atleast I can see that we are taking the same journey.
Regards
Rahul

Rahul

Thank you very much for your comments. I understand very well what you are mentioning

Well, I have detected some of the beliefs that I have in my subonscious, and one of them is for example the belief that I worth depending on the success I get on the activities I engage. Rationally, I know that´s not the true, I worth because of the dignity I have as a human being no matter what I have or what I do, but I think that the environment we all face in this material world has made me belief that since deeper in myself. So every losing trade, or maybe not that much as every single trade, but maybe a row of losing trades or a losing day, may put in doubt both: my skills and my confidence to trade and even my worthiness as a person because I am not getting the success I desire.

Well, you said, you took Rande´s course Ignite Your Spark Program for Traders. Tell your experience about it. How you feel after taking it? how much it help you to improve your trading? Did it help you to become a successful live trader or are you still in the process of becoming one?

When we start this trading journey, most of us believe that because of learning a specific method or taking a course we´ll become a successful trader the next day we finish the course. But I have understood this is mainly a process and things need to mature in order to get the results we want

Regards

Jorge

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  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
milpitas, ca, usa
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation
Broker/Data: Tradestation, Ameritrade
Favorite Futures: ES, Gold, 10 Yr
 
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Posts: 1,583 since Feb 2014
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jgomez74 View Post
Rahul

Thank you very much for your comments. I understand very well what you are mentioning

Well, I have detected some of the beliefs that I have in my subonscious, and one of them is for example the belief that I worth depending on the success I get on the activities I engage. Rationally, I know that´s not the true, I worth because of the dignity I have as a human being no matter what I have or what I do, but I think that the environment we all face in this material world has made me belief that since deeper in myself. So every losing trade, or maybe not that much as every single trade, but maybe a row of losing trades or a losing day, may put in doubt both: my skills and my confidence to trade and even my worthiness as a person because I am not getting the success I desire.

Well, you said, you took Rande´s course Ignite Your Spark Program for Traders. Tell your experience about it. How you feel after taking it? how much it help you to improve your trading? Did it help you to become a successful live trader or are you still in the process of becoming one?

When we start this trading journey, most of us believe that because of learning a specific method or taking a course we´ll become a successful trader the next day we finish the course. But I have understood this is mainly a process and things need to mature in order to get the results we want

Regards

Jorge

Jorge,
As an engineer designing and developing network security products for the enterprise, containing risk was my day time job. I used to make the outcome certain by mitigating risk. As you can see I had a big problem adapting to thinking in probabilities and embrace risk. Also, as part of growing up I view and value money in certain way, triggering scarcity thinking. I was profitable even before working with Rande, but my profits where miniscule. I had super tight risk and exited the trade before it started to run, to protect the little profit. All these trades, if I had stick to the profit target as per the strategy / plan, could have been big winners, but I never let them run.

I realized that there was no point in trading like this and I have to fix the issue. I worked with Adrienne T (NLP), Richard McCall (Author of The Way of the Warrior Trader) in the past apart from Hypnosis professional and others. After reading Rande, I realized, I was not addressing the root of the problem, my beliefs. I knew about this before from Mark Douglas ( Trading in the Zone ) but there was no clear path to work with. Rande's program gave me the structure to tackle this issue. I am still working with Rande as this is a long (months) program, not a weekend seminar. Rightfully so, it is our emotional system and belief we are dealing with.

Regarding performance, I have improved a lot. Please note, I have a fantastic, proven strategy for trading which I have been using for over 4 years. I worked with the wonderful traders at Zunaa.com and poured my heart into their program to learn what they teach. I still make mistakes but I am able to stick to the trading plan most of the time. It is a work in progress !!.

Please note, you should trust your system and is statistically proven to produce profit over a number of trades. The win rate for the strategies I use are high, though RR was low due to my execution.


Where am I with program ? I am able to remain very calm while trading and other life situations ( I have two young kids at home ). Deep Belly Breathing is becoming a habit now and I am able to view trading stress as psychological discomfort and not a biological threat, so that the fight / flight response is not triggered. I am practicing mindfulness, where critical thoughts are brought to foreground and analyzed to identify the belief system. Please note, unlike ZEN / Vipasana meditation where thoughts are ignored and pushed to nothingness (i was doing this ) here thoughts and fears are brought to the light of awareness and examined. I have reduced my mindless wanderings quite a bit. As I mentioned before, growing up , culturally and from life circumstances , I inherited certain beliefs that are not apt for trading. IF you have read Mark Douglas, he talks about releasing energy from one belief and creating a new one with higher energy. Beliefs cannot be deleted but energy can be drained from them. When you are mindless, you dont have beliefs, BUT they have you.

Jorge, trading thus far has been a fantastic journey for me on personal development side. I came face to face with my own daemons and addressed a lot of them. Leaving a high paying job to become a full time trader was the first step for me to step out of my comfort zone and face the fears. Did it grind me to my core ? absolutely yes . Was it worth it ? absolutely yes . You are on right path with understanding the self and addressing the issues to be a better human being and a better trader.

Please note, these are my personal experience / opinions, and not a recommendation of any sort. Programs like this depends greatly on ones personality and view of life. I have friends who thought ZEN was a waste of their time for trading success and doing quite well (as per them ).

Here is a piece of text I extracted from web to help me understand and improve probability thinking. Usually I stick them on the wall or make small recordings and listen to them often.

THINKING IN PROBABILITIES
To be a great trader, you have to have what we call ‘a lot of heart’, which is the ability to not only understand what the right entry or exit is, but to be able to follow through with it. Which seems like a very trivial point, but it’s probably the biggest point. A lot of times, what happens to people, sort of what separates the good from the great is that the good know the right answer, but they don’t follow through with it because it’s too scary and they think the risk is too big. They don’t have that confidence that it’s okay because while there might be some variance to the results and you might lose on this particular trade, mathematically it was the right choice. Over the long run it will work out. Most traders spend far too much time worrying about whether they’re right on this particular trade. What great traders worry about is whether their action will give them a profit enough of the time, which is a totally different way to think. What really makes a great trader is understanding, it’s not about winning right now, it’s about making the right decisions so that you win in the long run.

Any trade taken as per the trading plan is a winner weather it resulted in a profit or loss. Take all the trades that develop as per the plan.

Although beginning traders hang their entire psychology, confidence and performance on the next trade – you have to look at the next one as just one free throw in the thousands you will make over time.

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  #17 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Chihuahua, Mexico
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader and Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: TF
 
Posts: 32 since Dec 2011
Thanks: 25 given, 25 received


rahulgopi View Post
Jorge,
As an engineer designing and developing network security products for the enterprise, containing risk was my day time job. I used to make the outcome certain by mitigating risk. As you can see I had a big problem adapting to thinking in probabilities and embrace risk. Also, as part of growing up I view and value money in certain way, triggering scarcity thinking. I was profitable even before working with Rande, but my profits where miniscule. I had super tight risk and exited the trade before it started to run, to protect the little profit. All these trades, if I had stick to the profit target as per the strategy / plan, could have been big winners, but I never let them run.

I realized that there was no point in trading like this and I have to fix the issue. I worked with Adrienne T (NLP), Richard McCall (Author of The Way of the Warrior Trader) in the past apart from Hypnosis professional and others. After reading Rande, I realized, I was not addressing the root of the problem, my beliefs. I knew about this before from Mark Douglas ( Trading in the Zone ) but there was no clear path to work with. Rande's program gave me the structure to tackle this issue. I am still working with Rande as this is a long (months) program, not a weekend seminar. Rightfully so, it is our emotional system and belief we are dealing with.

Regarding performance, I have improved a lot. Please note, I have a fantastic, proven strategy for trading which I have been using for over 4 years. I worked with the wonderful traders at Zunaa.com and poured my heart into their program to learn what they teach. I still make mistakes but I am able to stick to the trading plan most of the time. It is a work in progress !!.

Please note, you should trust your system and is statistically proven to produce profit over a number of trades. The win rate for the strategies I use are high, though RR was low due to my execution.


Where am I with program ? I am able to remain very calm while trading and other life situations ( I have two young kids at home ). Deep Belly Breathing is becoming a habit now and I am able to view trading stress as psychological discomfort and not a biological threat, so that the fight / flight response is not triggered. I am practicing mindfulness, where critical thoughts are brought to foreground and analyzed to identify the belief system. Please note, unlike ZEN / Vipasana meditation where thoughts are ignored and pushed to nothingness (i was doing this ) here thoughts and fears are brought to the light of awareness and examined. I have reduced my mindless wanderings quite a bit. As I mentioned before, growing up , culturally and from life circumstances , I inherited certain beliefs that are not apt for trading. IF you have read Mark Douglas, he talks about releasing energy from one belief and creating a new one with higher energy. Beliefs cannot be deleted but energy can be drained from them. When you are mindless, you dont have beliefs, BUT they have you.

Jorge, trading thus far has been a fantastic journey for me on personal development side. I came face to face with my own daemons and addressed a lot of them. Leaving a high paying job to become a full time trader was the first step for me to step out of my comfort zone and face the fears. Did it grind me to my core ? absolutely yes . Was it worth it ? absolutely yes . You are on right path with understanding the self and addressing the issues to be a better human being and a better trader.

Please note, these are my personal experience / opinions, and not a recommendation of any sort. Programs like this depends greatly on ones personality and view of life. I have friends who thought ZEN was a waste of their time for trading success and doing quite well (as per them ).

Here is a piece of text I extracted from web to help me understand and improve probability thinking. Usually I stick them on the wall or make small recordings and listen to them often.

THINKING IN PROBABILITIES
To be a great trader, you have to have what we call ‘a lot of heart’, which is the ability to not only understand what the right entry or exit is, but to be able to follow through with it. Which seems like a very trivial point, but it’s probably the biggest point. A lot of times, what happens to people, sort of what separates the good from the great is that the good know the right answer, but they don’t follow through with it because it’s too scary and they think the risk is too big. They don’t have that confidence that it’s okay because while there might be some variance to the results and you might lose on this particular trade, mathematically it was the right choice. Over the long run it will work out. Most traders spend far too much time worrying about whether they’re right on this particular trade. What great traders worry about is whether their action will give them a profit enough of the time, which is a totally different way to think. What really makes a great trader is understanding, it’s not about winning right now, it’s about making the right decisions so that you win in the long run.

Any trade taken as per the trading plan is a winner weather it resulted in a profit or loss. Take all the trades that develop as per the plan.

Although beginning traders hang their entire psychology, confidence and performance on the next trade – you have to look at the next one as just one free throw in the thousands you will make over time.


Rahul

Thank you very much for all your comments and insight.

I see we share very common stuff. I am a computer systems engineer and I sutdied a master in telecommunications and a MBA. However, I also decided to engage into the trading business four years ago. As any other trader, I was looking for financial freedom and also being my own boss and having all the time I wanted to do things I enjoy and not to be a slave of a specific working schedule. However, I thing that during all these years I´ve had less free time because of this trading business.

I´ve been also practicing my trading method during 4 years, although, it has been improved specially on the last year.
After the first year of practicing the method, I became profitable trading on SIM and nowadays, I thing I have mastered it and I trade it with confidence, but trading on SIM. The issues arise when I try to start trading live.

Although I also have to admit that the last time I trade live was not the same as it was the first time. I remember that the first time after a couple of trades, I totally fell into the fight/flight mode and I almost fall into a panic attack.

Nowadays, when I´ve traded live, emotions are not that intense, but still I do not feel very comfortable, but as you said they switch from being a bilogical threat to a psicological discomfort.

Before I started to read Rande´s book, I took a couse maned Mind Muscles for Traders who had a similar approach of being aware of your thoughts, physical sensations and emotions. At that time I decided to stop trading live and go back to SIM. Eventhough I was not losing money, but I made a small profit, I was not glad yet with my results, because mainly the profits I made in a week, then I lost them in the next week.

So I decided to finish that Mind Muscles for Traders course and then to finish reading Rande´s book, so that I was better prepared. From the beginning of the trading journey I realized that the mental aspect or having a proper trading mindset was completely important to succeed, and I have also tried a lot of stuff like subliminal audios and videos, affirmations, writing essays and lifescripts, self hypnosis, etc, but I´ve also realized that all that was not enough since it was not reaching the core of changing the beliefs that were holding me back.

So, I liked Rande´s approach, but still I think the way he propses to change your beliefs is not enough, at least the what he mentions at his book.

Well, I liked a lot the Thinking in Probabilities text. What that text states it´s very important because we as traders believe that we are playing the life in every trade or in every trading day, and that´s why emotions become so arousal.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays!

Jorge

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jgomez74 View Post
Rahul

Thank you very much for all your comments and insight.

I see we share very common stuff. I am a computer systems engineer and I sutdied a master in telecommunications and a MBA. However, I also decided to engage into the trading business four years ago. As any other trader, I was looking for financial freedom and also being my own boss and having all the time I wanted to do things I enjoy and not to be a slave of a specific working schedule. However, I thing that during all these years I´ve had less free time because of this trading business.

I´ve been also practicing my trading method during 4 years, although, it has been improved specially on the last year.
After the first year of practicing the method, I became profitable trading on SIM and nowadays, I thing I have mastered it and I trade it with confidence, but trading on SIM. The issues arise when I try to start trading live.

Although I also have to admit that the last time I trade live was not the same as it was the first time. I remember that the first time after a couple of trades, I totally fell into the fight/flight mode and I almost fall into a panic attack.

Nowadays, when I´ve traded live, emotions are not that intense, but still I do not feel very comfortable, but as you said they switch from being a bilogical threat to a psicological discomfort.

Before I started to read Rande´s book, I took a couse maned Mind Muscles for Traders who had a similar approach of being aware of your thoughts, physical sensations and emotions. At that time I decided to stop trading live and go back to SIM. Eventhough I was not losing money, but I made a small profit, I was not glad yet with my results, because mainly the profits I made in a week, then I lost them in the next week.

So I decided to finish that Mind Muscles for Traders course and then to finish reading Rande´s book, so that I was better prepared. From the beginning of the trading journey I realized that the mental aspect or having a proper trading mindset was completely important to succeed, and I have also tried a lot of stuff like subliminal audios and videos, affirmations, writing essays and lifescripts, self hypnosis, etc, but I´ve also realized that all that was not enough since it was not reaching the core of changing the beliefs that were holding me back.

So, I liked Rande´s approach, but still I think the way he propses to change your beliefs is not enough, at least the what he mentions at his book.

Well, I liked a lot the Thinking in Probabilities text. What that text states it´s very important because we as traders believe that we are playing the life in every trade or in every trading day, and that´s why emotions become so arousal.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays!

Jorge

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Jorge,
I guess most traders go thru this cycle of frustration and learning. ZEN is a lifestyle and life long journey for Tibetan monks. If we expect to master emotions over a weekend course, it will result in disappointment and frustration. I think at some point we will have the wisdom to be patient and keep working at it .

Jorge, in my personal experience SIM trading only does few things, master your platform and methodology and provide statistics for the system. During the SIM period, I tracked all my trades, including the ones that I take and did not take as per the strategy on an excel sheet and came up with the statistics over a 3 month period of time. Eventually when I plotted this, I got a clear view on the statistics of my system. Please note, if you tweak the system in any way, you will skew the numbers and may not be accurate. Statistics will help you with developing trust in your system.

Bottom-line is SIM trading tells me the statistics for my system if it is executed as per the plan. I am able to execute SIM trading as per plan since emotions are not as high as in live trading. If you exhibit impulsive behavior in SIM trading or are unable to follow the plan, then this has to be addressed during SIM trading.

I never went back to SIM trading after this initial period. Instead, I traded very few contracts and worked on my emotions. If you dont have trust in your system backed by statistics, you will be tempted to tweak the system with few trades that result in a loss.

Working with beliefs will take time. It is a process where you start observing your thoughts and eventually tying it to an underlying belief. Rande ties the thoughts to Archetypes from Jungs method, which is pretty powerful in labeling and understanding the thoughts. I was amazed at the amount of negative thoughts I had and how I was fused with it, taking me for a ride. I am still working on this aspect, will provide an update in few months time.

Now my struggle is with myself . The reality is, trading gave me the opportunity to look at myself in a more meaningful way. I intent to continue and explore further in this path.

Merry Christmas and Wishing you a fantastic year ahead !!


Last edited by rahulgopi; December 24th, 2014 at 02:38 PM.
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intersting read on neuroplasticity
Neuroplasticity: Changing our Belief about Change, by Joanna Holsten

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rahulgopi View Post
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Jorge,
I guess most traders go thru this cycle of frustration and learning. ZEN is a lifestyle and life long journey for Tibetan monks. If we expect to master emotions over a weekend course, it will result in disappointment and frustration. I think at some point we will have the wisdom to be patient and keep working at it .

Jorge, in my personal experience SIM trading only does few things, master your platform and methodology and provide statistics for the system. During the SIM period, I tracked all my trades, including the ones that I take and did not take as per the strategy on an excel sheet and came up with the statistics over a 3 month period of time. Eventually when I plotted this, I got a clear view on the statistics of my system. Please note, if you tweak the system in any way, you will skew the numbers and may not be accurate. Statistics will help you with developing trust in your system.

Bottom-line is SIM trading tells me the statistics for my system if it is executed as per the plan. I am able to execute SIM trading as per plan since emotions are not as high as in live trading. If you exhibit impulsive behavior in SIM trading or are unable to follow the plan, then this has to be addressed during SIM trading.

I never went back to SIM trading after this initial period. Instead, I traded very few contracts and worked on my emotions. If you dont have trust in your system backed by statistics, you will be tempted to tweak the system with few trades that result in a loss.

Working with beliefs will take time. It is a process where you start observing your thoughts and eventually tying it to an underlying belief. Rande ties the thoughts to Archetypes from Jungs method, which is pretty powerful in labeling and understanding the thoughts. I was amazed at the amount of negative thoughts I had and how I was fused with it, taking me for a ride. I am still working on this aspect, will provide an update in few months time.

Now my struggle is with myself . The reality is, trading gave me the opportunity to look at myself in a more meaningful way. I intent to continue and explore further in this path.

Merry Christmas and Wishing you a fantastic year ahead !!


Hello Rahul

Hoping you are enjoying a very happy Christmas and holidays along with your family.

Talking about my system, I have a lot of confidence on it. I also keep an excel spreadsheet with statistics of almost two years on how the markets move and the probabilities for these moves according to my strategies and setups. In fact, I keep writing the statistics day after day as part of my daily activities of the analysis I perform after trading hours.

All this has allowed me to master my trading skills while trading on SIM.

What I think is that I still do not trust or I still do not have enough confidence of my execution of the system while trading live, because of emotional arousal that turn out into physical sensations like sudden increase in the heart beat rate, sensations on my throat, stomach, chest and even headaches sometimes when my trade is taking too long.

As Mark Douglas classifies the trading styles in mechanic, discretionary and intutive, I will say that my system is a discretionary one. So, in the system we analyze how the market is moving and how we think it will move next in order to enter the trades, more than entering a trade because of a mechanical setup.

When I am trading on SIM, I even take higher risks setting a larger stop loss and letting the maret makes their moves before going to my target and most of the times they work out. Whereas, when I am trading live, I trade more not to lose than to win, since I also try to diminsh the risks as much as possible and many times not allowing the market to complete their moves before taking off into the direction of the trade I entered.

Although I also have to admit, that even trading on SIM, my ego sometimes enters into scene and I sometimes get frustrated when things do not work out right away the way I planned.

I know that Rande ties the thoughts to archetypes and in that way he classifies the core beliefs we have and that the essential part is to strengthen the Warrior, the Sage, the Ruler, the Magician and to convert the immature Orpahn into a mature one.

The thing that I still do not know is which would be the best way exactly on how to strengthen those needed archetypes in order to form the proper trading committee, so that the inner critic and the adapted voice do not take the main seats on the trading committee?

Jorge

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